B2P with a small unintrusive cash shop. No sub, no free to pay, no greedy cash shop.
This is one of the problems I see all the time with posters, not being able to follow the conversation based on conditions and definitions as given. It is one thing to also include your preference, and your preference being included is and will always be appreciated... But only in addition to the conversation to begin with.
And @ ;XAPKen, you must be called out for the same reasons...
And this is why these sorts of polls and threads are usually just a big fap session. Some poster sets up a field of discussion for self validation and then gets indignant when others point out their tiny scope has limited and ineffective basis in reality.
The reality is that most every "p2p" game won't leave money on the table like they did 15 years ago. The few that do seem happy to live their lives in relative obscurity, but that's the exception not the rule. This is why newer games start box + sub and then make the sub optional later and add a cash shop. Maximum revenue for continued investment and development in the game.
However, and as I was stating to another in private messages :
How would you deal with those that can not simply participate in a discussion, given particular conditions and definitions are given for the sake of discussion?
How would you deal with those that in addition to those points, simply bombarded a thread in nonproductive and cyclical conversation whereas you know it would go no where?
To myself, those are not people that rational discussion will be had with.
Einstein himself dealt with particular phenomena and-or entities in physics separately, even though there were most certainly other phenomena and-or entities relevant to his theories (albeit, his first theory this was done more so on the basis of ignorance as opposed to intentionally focusing thoughts). Conditions and definitions for the sake of argument are necessary, in order to have rational conversation, based on the conversation and intended direction as well as to establish particular base points. Conditions and definitions are the equivalent to, undefined terms as are found as being quite old in the subject of logic. Their purpose is also quite old, as allowing to take what is stated as "known" and thus carrying a logical conversation forward toward "unknowns."
Unless that would all be claimed as wrong too?
So as I stated :
This is one of the problems I see all the time with posters, not being able to follow the conversation based on conditions and definitions as given. It is one thing to also include your preference, and your preference being included is and will always be appreciated... But only in addition to the conversation to begin with.
Didn't Einstein say that "God does not play dice" when arguing from the wrong side of the uncertainty principle. This is not a logical response, it is an argument from personal incredulity.
My problem with these forums has long been that too many people knee-jerk in response to a thread title without actually reading the content of the thread (or just churn out a belittling response from a position of conceit). When I responded to this thread initially I was forced to caveat my response due to the limited options available. I don't see the problem with people identifying the fundamental shortcomings or potential bias of a given frame of debate; surely these need to be identified?
This poll imposes the idea that payment method is the determining factor in deciding what game to play. If there was a category for 'It depends entirely on other factors, such as game quality, recommendations from friends, media reviews, reputation of the developer or whatever sparked my interest', I'd have voted for that. But since that option isn't provided, I didn't vote.
Hmm... so if the poll asked what your favorite desert was, you would see that as imposing the idea that breakfast, lunch and-or dinner are somehow not your favorite meals instead?
The poll simply asks a question, given particular conditions. The poll imposes nor even implies, that payment method itself is THEE determining factor in deciding what game to play.
You however would be the type in physics, to state that you can somehow not determine how to calculate gravity between the earth and moon, due to also needing to take into consideration an exact calculation of each and every periodic table element individually and their measures accurately before being able to do so.
Ah the interwebz
That's twice you responded to the same post, both times attacking me.
The initial poll is badly formed, as it does not have a way to simply state 'This isn't important to me'. A negative vote provides much more information about a topic that simply walking away from a poll. Even if given a situation where I wanted to play a game and was presented with an array of servers, each with different payment models, the poll doesn't give the option of walking away and not playing. The option of 'No Choice' can't be evaluated without tracking it. Null sets are vitally important in database operations, and representing null values is something you will deal with when making a game, should you get that far.
ArtificeVenatus said: In all reality, those same people are not exactly offered much in the way of options either. That is why, most numbers today (including those that involve $'s), are simply nonsense.
Each year (for decades) there have been MMO's launched with a Box + Sub model. This, in fact has been the most common launch model for all western MMO's. With this, there has been no shortage of options, and I would expect it to continue going forward.
ArtificeVenatus said: One can somewhat liken the numbers interpretation thing to the whole "Wildstar tragedy" story, and what it supposedly tells. How many times have I heard idiots put into writing that "Wildstar somehow proves that those old school players that say they want difficult content, obviously do not want difficult content"?
The issue has been that despite games launching with specific model, or feature set they have been unable to sustain. Games have had to adapt from a niche product, to something more mainstream, and in doing so appeal to a larger audience. This is only needed due to the financial requirements of being profitable.
Torval said: The reality is that most every "p2p" game won't leave money on the table like they did 15 years ago. The few that do seem happy to live their lives in relative obscurity, but that's the exception not the rule. This is why newer games start box + sub and then make the sub optional later and add a cash shop. Maximum revenue for continued investment and development in the game.
It was not so much as leaving money on the table, but more of someone else making money off their product. Sometime the third party sellers were making MORE than the actual developers. This was also done in a way that directly undermined the game.
Fractal_Analogy said: Nearly 80% of the respondents would choose Subscription only, that is if the game was worth it !! That has been the problem with these Developers over the last 7 years, and the games over the last 4 to 5 years. They are not worth our time to play. So much so, that many of them have had to go FREE to entice people to try their garbage.
Well, the games that used to be worth paying a sub, no longer are considered worth it. Despite people saying that they would pay a sub, they are not. Having said that, there is a market for box + sub games... but it is not as big as would be indicated by polls such as this.
Fractal_Analogy said: Age of Conan, Warhammer, etc were the first of the flops based on bad development and quick buck marketing. Then all the fast buck clones hit the market trying different marketing strategies, because they did not want to put in the effort to make a Subscription only game. It takes too long to develop. So soon the market turned volatile with many new games came crashing down, or going free to play.. this or that.
It is true that the MMORPG market had a crash in 2013, and has only started to stabilize recently. Due to the time it takes to make an MMO, it will still be a year (or two/three) before we see the effects of the recovery.
B2P with a small unintrusive cash shop. No sub, no free to pay, no greedy cash shop.
This is one of the problems I see all the time with posters, not being able to follow the conversation based on conditions and definitions as given. It is one thing to also include your preference, and your preference being included is and will always be appreciated... But only in addition to the conversation to begin with.
And @ ;XAPKen, you must be called out for the same reasons...
And this is why these sorts of polls and threads are usually just a big fap session. Some poster sets up a field of discussion for self validation and then gets indignant when others point out their tiny scope has limited and ineffective basis in reality.
The reality is that most every "p2p" game won't leave money on the table like they did 15 years ago. The few that do seem happy to live their lives in relative obscurity, but that's the exception not the rule. This is why newer games start box + sub and then make the sub optional later and add a cash shop. Maximum revenue for continued investment and development in the game.
However, and as I was stating to another in private messages :
How would you deal with those that can not simply participate in a discussion, given particular conditions and definitions are given for the sake of discussion?
How would you deal with those that in addition to those points, simply bombarded a thread in nonproductive and cyclical conversation whereas you know it would go no where?
To myself, those are not people that rational discussion will be had with.
Einstein himself dealt with particular phenomena and-or entities in physics separately, even though there were most certainly other phenomena and-or entities relevant to his theories (albeit, his first theory this was done more so on the basis of ignorance as opposed to intentionally focusing thoughts). Conditions and definitions for the sake of argument are necessary, in order to have rational conversation, based on the conversation and intended direction as well as to establish particular base points. Conditions and definitions are the equivalent to, undefined terms as are found as being quite old in the subject of logic. Their purpose is also quite old, as allowing to take what is stated as "known" and thus carrying a logical conversation forward toward "unknowns."
Unless that would all be claimed as wrong too?
So as I stated :
This is one of the problems I see all the time with posters, not being able to follow the conversation based on conditions and definitions as given. It is one thing to also include your preference, and your preference being included is and will always be appreciated... But only in addition to the conversation to begin with.
Didn't Einstein say that "God does not play dice" when arguing from the wrong side of the uncertainty principle. This is not a logical response, it is an argument from personal incredulity.
My problem with these forums has long been that too many people knee-jerk in response to a thread title without actually reading the content of the thread (or just churn out a belittling response from a position of conceit). When I responded to this thread initially I was forced to caveat my response due to the limited options available. I don't see the problem with people identifying the fundamental shortcomings or potential bias of a given frame of debate; surely these need to be identified?
You are correct. If you look at your initial response (and compare it to the others I responded apparently harshly to), you actually appear to be someone that read the OP and gave further input that was not supplied in the poll itself. That is expected.
However, I still stand behind what I have stated as has been quoted in this particular post. Such as B2P is not one of the options, as I have no intention to use B2P, should I of course ever produce an MMORPG. My view on B2P is equivalent to F2P, whereas some onetime payment up front is ridiculous at best, and certainly will not carry a true MMORPG which carries with it monthly expenses. Having a single paywall up front serves as a hindrance more than as a way to monetize. MMORPGs are not single player console games. Thus, why it is not an option. B2P is legitimately one of the payment options I can confidently state, that I would never use, if I were to produce an MMORPG. That is not to say I would never play an MMORPG that uses a B2P paywall to a F2P MMORPG.
And yes, Einstein did argue that "god does not play dice" from the wrong side of the uncertainty principle. It was in his ignorance, of not understanding how varying lightwaves as oscillating systems, act to create a larger oscillating system when viewing such as electrons. The resulting measurements from which, the uncertainty principle was derived. Ultimately however, he was correct. We humans are not god, but Einstein failed to truly see from gods perspective, even though it was gods mind he sought to perceive from.
This poll imposes the idea that payment method is the determining factor in deciding what game to play. If there was a category for 'It depends entirely on other factors, such as game quality, recommendations from friends, media reviews, reputation of the developer or whatever sparked my interest', I'd have voted for that. But since that option isn't provided, I didn't vote.
And yet, look at the results.
The results were predictable... but they also dont match where people spend there money. This is a very classic issue of people saying one thing, but doing another.
What was it that Henry Ford said? (Somthing like) 'If you asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.'
In all reality, those same people are not exactly offered much in the way of options either. That is why, most numbers today (including those that involve $'s), are simply nonsense.
One can somewhat liken the numbers interpretation thing to the whole "Wildstar tragedy" story, and what it supposedly tells. How many times have I heard idiots put into writing that "Wildstar somehow proves that those old school players that say they want difficult content, obviously do not want difficult content"?
Reality check for those idiots, the graphics were not such that appealed to said old schoolers, nor was their action combat system. Both the graphics and combat system appealed to the younger crowds... such that by the way, do not do difficult content. So they implemented backasswards appeal with backasswards content, and THAT is why Wildstar is now finding itself in the position it is in. *Applause* also idiots for not understanding various audiences, and what goes together with what.
Thus, these supposed interpretations are interpreted by idiots as well. Why should anyone believe any differently when it comes to player spending and why they spend what they do where they do. If you go by such idiot interpretations, then I myself must be a great fan of F2P P2W of the extremest kind (PWI) while mostly enjoying easy mode and boring dailies... None of which is true.
Wildstar had zero to do with oldschool.
It was the oldschool that was laughing at it's gameplay, and hoping all these kiddies go play and never come back... because action combat is action arcade, and not MMORPG.
Item Mall games are not true games, they are graphical shopping malls.
Thank you for repeating the part about Wildstar, that I already had stated.
This crowd also skews heavily in favor of paying more than 15 dollars a month if they could get a premium MMO experience, so I'm surprised the percentage for 'sub no cash shop' wasn't higher than it is (currently 60%).
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This crowd also skews heavily in favor of paying more than 15 dollars a month if they could get a premium MMO experience, so I'm surprised the percentage for 'sub no cash shop' wasn't higher than it is (currently 60%).
I'm not. The % of players that want "sub only," includes at least some of the players that chose "f2p as trial, then sub only." Add to this that the % of players that want sub only, does not state what % of those would pay how much. Personally, I would even pay as much as $60 per month, if the mmorpg was good enough (and I am broke as **** at the moment).
This poll imposes the idea that payment method is the determining factor in deciding what game to play. If there was a category for 'It depends entirely on other factors, such as game quality, recommendations from friends, media reviews, reputation of the developer or whatever sparked my interest', I'd have voted for that. But since that option isn't provided, I didn't vote.
Hmm... so if the poll asked what your favorite desert was, you would see that as imposing the idea that breakfast, lunch and-or dinner are somehow not your favorite meals instead?
The poll simply asks a question, given particular conditions. The poll imposes nor even implies, that payment method itself is THEE determining factor in deciding what game to play.
You however would be the type in physics, to state that you can somehow not determine how to calculate gravity between the earth and moon, due to also needing to take into consideration an exact calculation of each and every periodic table element individually and their measures accurately before being able to do so.
Ah the interwebz
Allow me to quote the exact reason people have a problem with your line of polling & questioning: "The poll simply asks a question, given particular conditions."
" ..given a particular condition.. "
Q: What is your favorite hamburger, when u have no money and have to walk...
See how placing bizarre condition on a generic situation have people revolting at the question? Who is actually ever looking for a hamburger, without money and need to walk to that store? (When they could logically just order a pizza with their credit card.. or the other million possible logical things they could do.)
Then why are you only worried about people who are wondering the streets without money looking for a hamburger..? Many see it as illegitimate or illogical and try to fill in the gaps with explaining their answer so that they make sense. Since the poll essential doesn't.
Understand? You place a specific condition on all your theories an questions, limiting answer to what you want to hear. Limited & bias questioning is not consensus.
This poll imposes the idea that payment method is the determining factor in deciding what game to play. If there was a category for 'It depends entirely on other factors, such as game quality, recommendations from friends, media reviews, reputation of the developer or whatever sparked my interest', I'd have voted for that. But since that option isn't provided, I didn't vote.
Hmm... so if the poll asked what your favorite desert was, you would see that as imposing the idea that breakfast, lunch and-or dinner are somehow not your favorite meals instead?
The poll simply asks a question, given particular conditions. The poll imposes nor even implies, that payment method itself is THEE determining factor in deciding what game to play.
You however would be the type in physics, to state that you can somehow not determine how to calculate gravity between the earth and moon, due to also needing to take into consideration an exact calculation of each and every periodic table element individually and their measures accurately before being able to do so.
Ah the interwebz
Allow me to quote the exact reason people have a problem with your line of polling & questioning: "The poll simply asks a question, given particular conditions."
" ..given a particular condition.. "
Q: What is your favorite hamburger, when u have no money and have to walk...
See how placing bizarre condition on a generic situation have people revolting at the question? Who is actually ever looking for a hamburger, without money and need to walk to that store? (When they could logically just order a pizza with their credit card.. or the other million possible logical things they could do.)
Then why are you only worried about people who are wondering the streets without money looking for a hamburger..? Many see it as illegitimate or illogical and try to fill in the gaps with explaining their answer so that they make sense. Since the poll essential doesn't.
Understand? You place a specific condition on all your theories an questions, limiting answer to what you want to hear. Limited & bias questioning is not consensus.
A biased poll is bias..
Nonsense example is nonsense example. But I do suppose it makes sense for a primitive way of thinking.
The poll here is PERFECTLY set up to allow all answers that could possibly be needed.
Question is SIMPLE : Given separate servers based on payment method, which server would you play on?
The answers are SIMPLE : 1. F2P w/ Cash Shop... 2. Sub Only... 3. F2P as a Trial, then Sub if you like (no transfer allowed)... 4. YOUR OPT OUT OPTION OTHERWISE.
This poll imposes the idea that payment method is the determining factor in deciding what game to play. If there was a category for 'It depends entirely on other factors, such as game quality, recommendations from friends, media reviews, reputation of the developer or whatever sparked my interest', I'd have voted for that. But since that option isn't provided, I didn't vote.
Hmm... so if the poll asked what your favorite desert was, you would see that as imposing the idea that breakfast, lunch and-or dinner are somehow not your favorite meals instead?
The poll simply asks a question, given particular conditions. The poll imposes nor even implies, that payment method itself is THEE determining factor in deciding what game to play.
You however would be the type in physics, to state that you can somehow not determine how to calculate gravity between the earth and moon, due to also needing to take into consideration an exact calculation of each and every periodic table element individually and their measures accurately before being able to do so.
Ah the interwebz
Allow me to quote the exact reason people have a problem with your line of polling & questioning: "The poll simply asks a question, given particular conditions."
" ..given a particular condition.. "
Q: What is your favorite hamburger, when u have no money and have to walk...
See how placing bizarre condition on a generic situation have people revolting at the question? Who is actually ever looking for a hamburger, without money and need to walk to that store? (When they could logically just order a pizza with their credit card.. or the other million possible logical things they could do.)
Then why are you only worried about people who are wondering the streets without money looking for a hamburger..? Many see it as illegitimate or illogical and try to fill in the gaps with explaining their answer so that they make sense. Since the poll essential doesn't.
Understand? You place a specific condition on all your theories an questions, limiting answer to what you want to hear. Limited & bias questioning is not consensus.
A biased poll is bias..
Nonsense example is nonsense example. But I do suppose it makes sense for a primitive way of thinking.
The poll here is PERFECTLY set up to allow all answers that could possibly be needed.
Question is SIMPLE : Given separate servers based on payment method, which server would you play on?
The answers are SIMPLE : 1. F2P w/ Cash Shop... 2. Sub Only... 3. F2P as a Trial, then Sub if you like (no transfer allowed)... 4. YOUR OPT OUT OPTION OTHERWISE.
[mod edit]
Glad you thought it was that simple....
"The answers are SIMPLE : 1. F2P w/ Cash Shop... 2. Sub Only... 3. F2P as a Trial, then Sub if you like (no transfer allowed)"
What about B2P?
F2P with cash shop? Are we talkin Asian MMOs here? Because it matters.
What you call "Sub only" is not listed as clear as that in the OP
"F2P as a Trial, then Sub if you like (no transfer allowed)" - Why no server transfers? Another WTF on the choices.
The OP was very thin on choices....period. It isn't that easy.
Post edited by Amana on
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I was just saying. So ask yourself, why are you getting so mad?
More importantly, why not ask what type of game style, or business model we prefer. Instead of type of server. (and bring in the distraction of character transfers, etc into your poll)
I'll repeat this exchange as proof you do not understand people, only your direction/directive:
B2P with a small unintrusive cash shop. No sub, no free to pay, no greedy cash shop.
This is one of the problems I see all the time with posters, not being
able to follow the conversation based on conditions and definitions as
given. It is one thing to also include your preference, and your
preference being included is and will always be appreciated... But only
in addition to the conversation to begin with.
And @ ;XAPKen, you must be called out for the same reasons...
The problem is^ you do not want to have a conversation, unless you can control it. Unless it supports your ideas.
Again, OP you should be worried about making your game, and discussing that. Not trying to figure out how to sell it, or maximize profits. Otherwise you are not making a game, you are instead designing a shopping mall. That is not your job, the publisher you go with, will most certainly work with you on how you game will make revenues.
If you are actually trying to figure out a way to make money before building the game (internally and in your mind with a vision), then your game will flop. That doesn't mean you might not make a fast buck off of it. It just means it will not be good, because you are spending too much time dreaming of how rich you'll be some day.
Why worry about how you can exploit your customers, instead of being a visionary and making an awesome game..? If you can't make a good game, then why even try, or fall back on item mall cash shops as a last resort. Who aims that low? (business men)
Tell us about your game, not how you are going to sell it to us. Then ask others how would they like to pay for your game.
This was a tough one for me. If there was a game that I enjoyed enough then 100% monthly sub. Right now F2P is working okay for me since I can juggle different games around more easily.
What about what type of of F2P? Plenty of people voted and then further detailed that, and that was a proper way to go about a poll such as this.
And if transfers were allowed from F2P to Sub (or vise versa), that would get abused and bring P2W to a Sub server (and possibly could be abused in the opposite direction as well). Or is that not realized? I am fairly certain that at least half of whom voted understood that would be a possibility. Beyond that, another issue with server transfers is the "community" issue. Or do you believe every MMORPG that gets made will allow you to play the asshat, and hold no consequences? No name changes either, no gender changes, and only progressive skill changes will be available. Sure, you can change appearance however.
It was quite SIMPLE.
@ ;Fractal_Analogy -- Why lash out? Because I have dealt with the same trolls prior, with the same exact trolling BS outright. ...And, it makes me feel good about myself, particularly when it is aimed toward trolls.
As was explained to Gestankfaust above, the "no server transfers" has a legitimate reasoning behind it. Someone such as yourself SHOULD comprehend and even have understood such without needing to question that here. But again, you are a troll. You set out on your little crusades, and are not actually about "Subscriptions," not actually against "Cash Shops," and do not actually understand the systems involved in bringing about "Pay to Win," or this "no server transfers" would have been blatantly obvious.
Again, you are dead wrong. It is not about control, whatsoever. It is about not going into what is irrelevant information, and B2P is exactly that, when I know for a fact that I would not use B2P when the time comes to release an MMORPG. So why have it on the poll? B2P is simply F2P with Cash Shop, but just so happens to have a paywall initially. These are not console games we are talking about.
Worried about how to make my game? What worries should I have? I know exactly what features it will have, without questioning some general public forum. I know what paths I need to take to get there. There will also be no publisher independent from myself and the team/teams I pull together, as developing the game. IE - The company that develops the game will also be publishing that same game. I have no intention of allowing some publisher destroy what I have worked toward.
The game is already figured out overall. I have plenty of details to expand on before it is finished, but overall the game is laid out. Dreaming of being rich is the furthest thing from my mind, actually. And making a fast buck is not at all part of the equation. You simply assume that based on the questions I am presenting here on this forum. I already have a decade of expansions planned from the initial edition. What more thinking on the game should I do?
I have no intention of divulging the details of my game. The most detail you will hear from me is that it will be "traditional-based combat," with over 5 million strategy categories of options to build a character with (which was decreased back in December of 2014 from over 16 million, due to refining of definitions), it will be levelless and skill building (as has been revised from initially being a leveled system), yet it will still have balance and interdependence, with non-combat abilities being in great abundance through the same strategy categories system, with an open and mostly non-instanced world, with both PvE and PvP, as well as Roleplaying that is meaningful (even to non-roleplayers), at least 20 races (human only being 1 of those), various governments, various religions, various factions, guild vs guild territory battles, actually having cursed items done properly, actually having harsh death penalties (yet not harsh enough to break your character), it will actually have that player experience as was had of Pen & Paper / Tabletop RPGs, whereas you will need to be observant of your surroundings, the world will seem alive, the storylines of encounters and npcs will play out without your character even needing to be there (you will simply intervene), quests will not be what you have seen so far, as they are based on the strategy categories system as well (no kill/collect x, nor any talk to/escort x npc quests)...
And that barely scratches the surface, while still not delivering enough to be taken. I have had enough works stolen over the past 3 decades. This will not be one of those.
Sounds like a lot? There are ways of doing anything when you know how to organize, when you know how to categorize, when you know how to outline, and then add in the details.
I have no intention of asking what features should be in my game, nor how they should be implemented. What I have, will be perfection when it comes together, and I have no intention of cheapening it with nonsense.
@ ;Loktofeit -- No. I have trolls crawling my threads, each and every time. And when you can see the world from my perspective, then you can talk. What do they say? "What in another's shoes a mile?" But you can pretend to play judge.
Because you goals are not stipulated in your poll.
Why not preface or say "I am building a game with "this" in mind, and given "this".. how would this community wish to pay for it. (Insert poll)
Clearly defined^.
Instead you are harboring some great pseudo business model, that is clearly not defined, and wording a poll to reflect that. Wording your poll biased towards your goal... to make yourself feel good about your choice of revenues stream for your secret game.
I already told you to work on your game, and hire me to sell it for you when it is internally completed. Instead you shut down your own P2W reduction method thread, because you could not control people in it, now you are arguing with the public here because they are telling you that pay to win sucks, because people play for MMORPG for the challenge content and like to be on a level paying field while doing so.
Your game is about making money, not providing an actual role playing game... so you are upset with all the reality around you telling your your project is dead in the water until you make something of quality & insight.
Absurd, the type of game you are making IS relevant. You do not want to share, because you have none of the creative stuff done. (Just possibly the underlying game mechanics.)
Lastly, your game is not possible, because you do not have a map of your game world. You have no idea what the cultures of the races will be, why they are there and the history of them. What their history is and how they are different from the other races. Let alone 5 million strategies.. in building a class less system, with no roles to play. (??)
All you know is you want people to pay you for items that you want to sell them in game. That is not a game, it is a shopping mall. People do not play MMORPG to go shopping. And somehow you think you can change that because you think you have a way to reduce the impact of pay to win. Good luck, as nobody here will be playing your mini shopping game as you currently have envisioned it.
You own poll already reflects that people do not want to buy things in game, but earn them along side friends and family. Buying something is not a challenge.
You should switch from making a MMORPG, to a mobile MMO app for the masses.
This poll imposes the idea that payment method is the determining factor in deciding what game to play. If there was a category for 'It depends entirely on other factors, such as game quality, recommendations from friends, media reviews, reputation of the developer or whatever sparked my interest', I'd have voted for that. But since that option isn't provided, I didn't vote.
Hmm... so if the poll asked what your favorite desert was, you would see that as imposing the idea that breakfast, lunch and-or dinner are somehow not your favorite meals instead?
The poll simply asks a question, given particular conditions. The poll imposes nor even implies, that payment method itself is THEE determining factor in deciding what game to play.
You however would be the type in physics, to state that you can somehow not determine how to calculate gravity between the earth and moon, due to also needing to take into consideration an exact calculation of each and every periodic table element individually and their measures accurately before being able to do so.
Ah the interwebz
That's twice you responded to the same post, both times attacking me.
The initial poll is badly formed, as it does not have a way to simply state 'This isn't important to me'. A negative vote provides much more information about a topic that simply walking away from a poll. Even if given a situation where I wanted to play a game and was presented with an array of servers, each with different payment models, the poll doesn't give the option of walking away and not playing. The option of 'No Choice' can't be evaluated without tracking it. Null sets are vitally important in database operations, and representing null values is something you will deal with when making a game, should you get that far.
What is this?
"I would not even bother -7%"
The 'I would not even bother' option is not a unique choice. It does not distinguish between those that see the multiple server options and play anyway, and those that see the multiple server options and not play that game. Again, you know what you are thinking, but fail to express whatever your point is in terms that others can comprehend clearly. A poll asks a question and presents unique possible answers. The answers in a properly constructed poll are not ambiguous. "I would not even bother" is neither unique, nor unambiguous in context of this poll.
An old saying in US political circles is 'If you only count the Democratic votes, the Republicans will never win."
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Because you goals are not stipulated in your poll.
Why not preface or say "I am building a game with "this" in mind, and given "this".. how would this community wish to pay for it. (Insert poll)
Clearly defined^.
Instead you are harboring some great pseudo business model, that is clearly not defined, and wording a poll to reflect that. Wording your poll biased towards your goal... to make yourself feel good about your choice of revenues stream for your secret game.
I already told you to work on your game, and hire me to sell it for you when it is internally completed. Instead you shut down your own P2W reduction method thread, because you could not control people in it, now you are arguing with the public here because they are telling you that pay to win sucks, because people play for MMORPG for the challenge content and like to be on a level paying field while doing so.
Your game is about making money, not providing an actual role playing game... so you are upset with all the reality around you telling your your project is dead in the water until you make something of quality & insight.
Absurd, the type of game you are making IS relevant. You do not want to share, because you have none of the creative stuff done. (Just possibly the underlying game mechanics.)
Lastly, your game is not possible, because you do not have a map of your game world. You have no idea what the cultures of the races will be, why they are there and the history of them. What their history is and how they are different from the other races. Let alone 5 million strategies.. in building a class less system, with no roles to play. (??)
All you know is you want people to pay you for items that you want to sell them in game. That is not a game, it is a shopping mall. People do not play MMORPG to go shopping. And somehow you think you can change that because you think you have a way to reduce the impact of pay to win. Good luck, as nobody here will be playing your mini shopping game as you currently have envisioned it.
You own poll already reflects that people do not want to buy things in game, but earn them along side friends and family. Buying something is not a challenge.
You should switch from making a MMORPG, to a mobile MMO app for the masses.
I shut down my P2W Reduction Methods thread, for now, which is not to say it will not return in some further refined form sometime in the future.
The P2W Reduction Methods, if you bothered reading it and actually thought about it, is simply a foundation laid at the moment. That foundation actually acts to educate on how P2W actually works in order "to suck." That foundation actually begins a conversation in a direction of how it can be reduced, especially when we are also seeing Cash Shops in Subscription MMO-MMORPGs. The P2W Reduction Methods is a very small system compared to those I have already developed prior to the P2W Reduction Methods being developed.
The systems I have developed prior are far more complicated than the P2W Reduction Methods, which include the strategy categories system (the very foundation of my planned MMORPG as well as the most complicated interweaving system I have had to develop and work with), the reorganizing of dictionary entries as a tool to further construct that strategy categories system (which includes etymologies and Latin), the quantum gravitational theory (which includes the associated entities and phenomena involved), the new scientific methodology (which was necessary to develop in order to develop the quantum gravitational theory, whereas it appeared as if I was merely using "intuition" prior to that methodology being identified), and the illustrative systems to develop higher dimensional concepts (which still appears as if it is based on "intuition," given I have not identified the methodology which must also exist to have developed said higher dimensional concepts). All of those systems are either absolutely correct or in the correct direction, the P2W Reduction Methods I can guarantee is also dead on accurate.
That same P2W Reduction Methods foundation, acts to allow the developers too, to see where issues develop or to know what to look for in general. The P2W Reduction Methods act as a basis, whereas developers can choose to use some part or parts, saying they seriously do not want P2W to be THEE player advantage to have in their game.
EVE Online already uses such P2W Reduction Methods, otherwise their PLEX system (along with how their cash shop is implemented) would allow full on unlimited P2W. Now in the case of EVE Online, I highly doubt they outright planned to have P2W Reduction Methods, but their initial systems as naturally part of their game provided for such.
The P2W Reduction Methods in some form will eventually be recognized in future MMO-MMORPGs, regardless of how the conversation goes in threads I have and will begin on the subject. It is simply part of the future landscape of the MMO-MMORPG industry.
You can not keep saying people have not read, or studies your proposed method.
I have extensively and it is flawed, because it ONLY encompasses a small portion of over all game style. It has too many constrictions and controls that nobody would ever play such a game.
You have some grand vision of how people want to play, but do not consider how others want to play. Thus if they chose to play your game, it will have limited playability because of all the stuff you have hard baked into the game. SO many rules upon rules... that if one rules breaks down, the whole method becomes defunct. To many contradictions.
You do not look at your own ideas or methods objectively. You just keep baking on more and more qualifiers to each rule to control that mechanics.
The P2W Reduction Methods are based on having played Subscription only MMORPGs for years (UO, EQ, EQ2 & Vanguard... even WoW for a short time in 2013, Ryzom for a short time in 2014 & beginning of 2015), while also since playing F2P with Cash Shops now for years (PWI since 2010, TERA, Vanguard as F2P, Allods, Aion, Rift, ArcheAge, Royal Quest). I have used the P2W Player Advantage myself. I see how it works in multiple ways. I see how it can be better balanced (ie - so that the P2W player advantage is not THEE advantage to have) through multiple systems. Those systems do not impose rules on the playerbase at all, saying they are implemented correctly.
It is obvious there is no conversation here. I'm done wasting my time. I have developed plenty of other major systems myself without need for others' input, as well as systems that large groups would never be able to develop.
eh, 5 million classes, or categories is all the same to the player... less is more. Dice rolls are proven as foundation of MMORPG's. You are fussing over technicalities that will not matter to anyone, or any player at a meaning depth. You tout numbers because you have no workable theory to discuss with us, say in combat and what each class means/does, etc.
You expect us to think you Arti, that you perfected an MMORPG that it is everything you say it is, then say who can't share it with us? And that your system (unknown) is such, there is no need to make hard roleplaying choices, or definitive paths, but a dynamic miltiplix of player ability in a soupy broth, with superhero style of ArcheAge p2w platform, all in which you control the economy and sell them items to do battle with each other on... while controlling currency in and out of the game.. type f game?
Thus^, no ROLE playing game.
And character's through YOUR super secret formula can't be nearly anything they want, but structure under what YOU call roles and classes & roles and...
You don't allow in any of your rules, unmitigated, unchecked freedom to watch it all develop on it's own. Thus insuring a sense of a living and breathing world (on each server). That is utterly essential to a long standing game world's. Open ended games worlds many years down the road, can lead to dynamic in-game/outgame politics. Which leads to a meta game, like EVE & EQ and some of the Baby Bells coming.
Your aggressive nature of your game's redux mechanics are specifically locking others out from farming it excessively and aggressively on their own, or through their own politics. (endles btw).
You have a perfect game, that when played out becomes uber sterile. You are not listening to these people here. In one way or another, what these People here are collectively saying, is you are wrong!
You have to share your GAME WORLD, otherwise you don't have jack and just some lunar rat, obsessively trying out how to be Guinness, because he built the next uber-ego testosterone filled PvP game EvAr.. ArcheAge4.. "m3 b rich", because that is the OP's goal.
Additionally, He has no interest in sharing his wonder, with this community. He just wants to data mine us for ideas to better grasp how he can make money.
Sound about right^?
You have no clear vision. Any time you type anymore, it is the same regurgitated hodgepodge that comes out of your mouth. Stop stuttering and drop the bomb on us.
The poll is flawed because it doesn't address the most important question. Is the game even worth a suscription. I have no problem paying a sub for a game, in fact I'd prefer to pay a sub and not have to deal with cash shops and the whole P2W argument.
The problem is that recent titles haven't been worthy of a sub for the most part. The sub based games that have come out and failed, gone F2P, did so for a reason and it's nothing to do with the sub, it's all about the quality of the product.
The F2P games lack depth and fail to hold my attention so there's no way I'd sub to any of them either.
Of the older sub games, WoW lost it's way a long time ago, EQ is too dated, and most of the others are running some sort of Freemium service.
Pretty much the only game I still sub to on and off is EVE.
The business model is pretty irrelevant really, I'm more interested in finding a quality MMO and sadly they seem to be few and far between.
Definitely f2p to try it then sub if I really like it, I love being able to try something before I commit, Nothing more annoying than paying/subbing for something you find out you don't like.
The P2W Reduction Methods are based on having played Subscription only MMORPGs for years (UO, EQ, EQ2 & Vanguard... even WoW for a short time in 2013, Ryzom for a short time in 2014 & beginning of 2015), while also since playing F2P with Cash Shops now for years (PWI since 2010, TERA, Vanguard as F2P, Allods, Aion, Rift, ArcheAge, Royal Quest). I have used the P2W Player Advantage myself. I see how it works in multiple ways. I see how it can be better balanced (ie - so that the P2W player advantage is not THEE advantage to have) through multiple systems. Those systems do not impose rules on the playerbase at all, saying they are implemented correctly.
It is obvious there is no conversation here. I'm done wasting my time. I have developed plenty of other major systems myself without need for others' input, as well as systems that large groups would never be able to develop.
Have a nice day.
Artifice, You keep telling us what your P2W redux method is based on. But you never let us see it.
You keep touting your vast experience over the years and these uber ideas you have, but again never let us see actual working in-game mechanics based on such theories. You expect us to discuss with you an idea that you will not let loose, and then bow out, or close any thread because that gets to close to you actually having to ante up proof of your design.
Your whole theory is based on verbally repeating other games mistakes, and telling us what is wrong with them (again obvious and many threads all over the internet on the exact same thing) while not offering any actual remedy of your own, other than: "...saying they are implemented correctly."
We would like to hear one game mechanic that you plan on implementing correctly, plz..
Since you can not, YOU are now shutting down another thread and bowing out of the conversation, because it came to the point where you have to actually back your mouth up, with actualities and not theories.
Read your own definition above. You own P2W redux definition above defines nothing, other than you noticed playing those old games, that certain players have advantages.
Nobody cares what your theories are based on (why do you keep repeating that), we care about what they are. You have not defined one theory... and you keep trolling us with your ideas, that are still a secret, still unheard and still not public or open for discussion. It is absurd.
Again, You have been challenged throughout conversation here to provide proof, or one rule that you will implement "correctly" and since you can not, this conversation is done?
Then offer a feeble excuse, that You have developed plenty of other major systems yourself..? Which themselves too, will probably fall apart under scrutiny, because you have shown to have a propensity of being single minded person. Unable to take any criticism for your self proclaimed P2W redux method, that is still secret. Even though you have 2 pages describing what it isn't, none describing what it actually is.
You are still afraid to state the goals of your own game. Or even a map.
Honestly, I think it is about time you took a step back from your works & re-design your method into something tangible and real. (Leaving out the long history of what these ideas are based on. An instead work on giving an actually working example of your method.)
I suggest studying, or looking at the Baby Bells coming (Shroud of the Avatar, Pantheon, Saga of Lucimia, etc) and look at those game's "player advantages"... (which most people simply refer to as "game play") and see if your theories have have a real function.
Comments
My problem with these forums has long been that too many people knee-jerk in response to a thread title without actually reading the content of the thread (or just churn out a belittling response from a position of conceit). When I responded to this thread initially I was forced to caveat my response due to the limited options available. I don't see the problem with people identifying the fundamental shortcomings or potential bias of a given frame of debate; surely these need to be identified?
What is this?
Each year (for decades) there have been MMO's launched with a Box + Sub model. This, in fact has been the most common launch model for all western MMO's. With this, there has been no shortage of options, and I would expect it to continue going forward.
The issue has been that despite games launching with specific model, or feature set they have been unable to sustain. Games have had to adapt from a niche product, to something more mainstream, and in doing so appeal to a larger audience. This is only needed due to the financial requirements of being profitable.
It was not so much as leaving money on the table, but more of someone else making money off their product. Sometime the third party sellers were making MORE than the actual developers. This was also done in a way that directly undermined the game.
Well, the games that used to be worth paying a sub, no longer are considered worth it. Despite people saying that they would pay a sub, they are not. Having said that, there is a market for box + sub games... but it is not as big as would be indicated by polls such as this.
It is true that the MMORPG market had a crash in 2013, and has only started to stabilize recently. Due to the time it takes to make an MMO, it will still be a year (or two/three) before we see the effects of the recovery.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
However, I still stand behind what I have stated as has been quoted in this particular post. Such as B2P is not one of the options, as I have no intention to use B2P, should I of course ever produce an MMORPG. My view on B2P is equivalent to F2P, whereas some onetime payment up front is ridiculous at best, and certainly will not carry a true MMORPG which carries with it monthly expenses. Having a single paywall up front serves as a hindrance more than as a way to monetize. MMORPGs are not single player console games. Thus, why it is not an option. B2P is legitimately one of the payment options I can confidently state, that I would never use, if I were to produce an MMORPG. That is not to say I would never play an MMORPG that uses a B2P paywall to a F2P MMORPG.
And yes, Einstein did argue that "god does not play dice" from the wrong side of the uncertainty principle. It was in his ignorance, of not understanding how varying lightwaves as oscillating systems, act to create a larger oscillating system when viewing such as electrons. The resulting measurements from which, the uncertainty principle was derived. Ultimately however, he was correct. We humans are not god, but Einstein failed to truly see from gods perspective, even though it was gods mind he sought to perceive from.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Allow me to quote the exact reason people have a problem with your line of polling & questioning: "The poll simply asks a question, given particular conditions."
" ..given a particular condition.. "
Q: What is your favorite hamburger, when u have no money and have to walk...
See how placing bizarre condition on a generic situation have people revolting at the question? Who is actually ever looking for a hamburger, without money and need to walk to that store? (When they could logically just order a pizza with their credit card.. or the other million possible logical things they could do.)
Then why are you only worried about people who are wondering the streets without money looking for a hamburger..? Many see it as illegitimate or illogical and try to fill in the gaps with explaining their answer so that they make sense. Since the poll essential doesn't.
Understand? You place a specific condition on all your theories an questions, limiting answer to what you want to hear. Limited & bias questioning is not consensus.
A biased poll is bias..
The poll here is PERFECTLY set up to allow all answers that could possibly be needed.
Question is SIMPLE : Given separate servers based on payment method, which server would you play on?
The answers are SIMPLE : 1. F2P w/ Cash Shop... 2. Sub Only... 3. F2P as a Trial, then Sub if you like (no transfer allowed)... 4. YOUR OPT OUT OPTION OTHERWISE.
[mod edit]
"The answers are SIMPLE : 1. F2P w/ Cash Shop... 2. Sub Only... 3. F2P as a Trial, then Sub if you like (no transfer allowed)"
What about B2P?
F2P with cash shop? Are we talkin Asian MMOs here? Because it matters.
What you call "Sub only" is not listed as clear as that in the OP
"F2P as a Trial, then Sub if you like (no transfer allowed)" - Why no server transfers? Another WTF on the choices.
The OP was very thin on choices....period. It isn't that easy.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I was just saying. So ask yourself, why are you getting so mad?
More importantly, why not ask what type of game style, or business model we prefer. Instead of type of server. (and bring in the distraction of character transfers, etc into your poll)
I'll repeat this exchange as proof you do not understand people, only your direction/directive:
The problem is^ you do not want to have a conversation, unless you can control it. Unless it supports your ideas.
Again, OP you should be worried about making your game, and discussing that. Not trying to figure out how to sell it, or maximize profits. Otherwise you are not making a game, you are instead designing a shopping mall. That is not your job, the publisher you go with, will most certainly work with you on how you game will make revenues.
If you are actually trying to figure out a way to make money before building the game (internally and in your mind with a vision), then your game will flop. That doesn't mean you might not make a fast buck off of it. It just means it will not be good, because you are spending too much time dreaming of how rich you'll be some day.
Why worry about how you can exploit your customers, instead of being a visionary and making an awesome game..? If you can't make a good game, then why even try, or fall back on item mall cash shops as a last resort. Who aims that low? (business men)
Tell us about your game, not how you are going to sell it to us. Then ask others how would they like to pay for your game.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Why not preface or say "I am building a game with "this" in mind, and given "this".. how would this community wish to pay for it. (Insert poll)
Clearly defined^.
Instead you are harboring some great pseudo business model, that is clearly not defined, and wording a poll to reflect that. Wording your poll biased towards your goal... to make yourself feel good about your choice of revenues stream for your secret game.
I already told you to work on your game, and hire me to sell it for you when it is internally completed. Instead you shut down your own P2W reduction method thread, because you could not control people in it, now you are arguing with the public here because they are telling you that pay to win sucks, because people play for MMORPG for the challenge content and like to be on a level paying field while doing so.
Your game is about making money, not providing an actual role playing game... so you are upset with all the reality around you telling your your project is dead in the water until you make something of quality & insight.
Absurd, the type of game you are making IS relevant. You do not want to share, because you have none of the creative stuff done. (Just possibly the underlying game mechanics.)
Lastly, your game is not possible, because you do not have a map of your game world. You have no idea what the cultures of the races will be, why they are there and the history of them. What their history is and how they are different from the other races. Let alone 5 million strategies.. in building a class less system, with no roles to play. (??)
All you know is you want people to pay you for items that you want to sell them in game. That is not a game, it is a shopping mall. People do not play MMORPG to go shopping. And somehow you think you can change that because you think you have a way to reduce the impact of pay to win. Good luck, as nobody here will be playing your mini shopping game as you currently have envisioned it.
You own poll already reflects that people do not want to buy things in game, but earn them along side friends and family. Buying something is not a challenge.
You should switch from making a MMORPG, to a mobile MMO app for the masses.
An old saying in US political circles is 'If you only count the Democratic votes, the Republicans will never win."
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Because if he had clearly defined and stipulated his game in the poll and gave a choice of:
Would be too revealing to him. Would not suite his plans.
The P2W Reduction Methods, if you bothered reading it and actually thought about it, is simply a foundation laid at the moment. That foundation actually acts to educate on how P2W actually works in order "to suck." That foundation actually begins a conversation in a direction of how it can be reduced, especially when we are also seeing Cash Shops in Subscription MMO-MMORPGs. The P2W Reduction Methods is a very small system compared to those I have already developed prior to the P2W Reduction Methods being developed.
The systems I have developed prior are far more complicated than the P2W Reduction Methods, which include the strategy categories system (the very foundation of my planned MMORPG as well as the most complicated interweaving system I have had to develop and work with), the reorganizing of dictionary entries as a tool to further construct that strategy categories system (which includes etymologies and Latin), the quantum gravitational theory (which includes the associated entities and phenomena involved), the new scientific methodology (which was necessary to develop in order to develop the quantum gravitational theory, whereas it appeared as if I was merely using "intuition" prior to that methodology being identified), and the illustrative systems to develop higher dimensional concepts (which still appears as if it is based on "intuition," given I have not identified the methodology which must also exist to have developed said higher dimensional concepts). All of those systems are either absolutely correct or in the correct direction, the P2W Reduction Methods I can guarantee is also dead on accurate.
That same P2W Reduction Methods foundation, acts to allow the developers too, to see where issues develop or to know what to look for in general. The P2W Reduction Methods act as a basis, whereas developers can choose to use some part or parts, saying they seriously do not want P2W to be THEE player advantage to have in their game.
EVE Online already uses such P2W Reduction Methods, otherwise their PLEX system (along with how their cash shop is implemented) would allow full on unlimited P2W. Now in the case of EVE Online, I highly doubt they outright planned to have P2W Reduction Methods, but their initial systems as naturally part of their game provided for such.
The P2W Reduction Methods in some form will eventually be recognized in future MMO-MMORPGs, regardless of how the conversation goes in threads I have and will begin on the subject. It is simply part of the future landscape of the MMO-MMORPG industry.
[mod edit]
I have extensively and it is flawed, because it ONLY encompasses a small portion of over all game style. It has too many constrictions and controls that nobody would ever play such a game.
You have some grand vision of how people want to play, but do not consider how others want to play. Thus if they chose to play your game, it will have limited playability because of all the stuff you have hard baked into the game. SO many rules upon rules... that if one rules breaks down, the whole method becomes defunct. To many contradictions.
You do not look at your own ideas or methods objectively. You just keep baking on more and more qualifiers to each rule to control that mechanics.
It is obvious there is no conversation here. I'm done wasting my time. I have developed plenty of other major systems myself without need for others' input, as well as systems that large groups would never be able to develop.
Have a nice day.
You expect us to think you Arti, that you perfected an MMORPG that it is everything you say it is, then say who can't share it with us? And that your system (unknown) is such, there is no need to make hard roleplaying choices, or definitive paths, but a dynamic miltiplix of player ability in a soupy broth, with superhero style of ArcheAge p2w platform, all in which you control the economy and sell them items to do battle with each other on... while controlling currency in and out of the game.. type f game?
Thus^, no ROLE playing game.
And character's through YOUR super secret formula can't be nearly anything they want, but structure under what YOU call roles and classes & roles and...
You don't allow in any of your rules, unmitigated, unchecked freedom to watch it all develop on it's own. Thus insuring a sense of a living and breathing world (on each server). That is utterly essential to a long standing game world's. Open ended games worlds many years down the road, can lead to dynamic in-game/outgame politics. Which leads to a meta game, like EVE & EQ and some of the Baby Bells coming.
Your aggressive nature of your game's redux mechanics are specifically locking others out from farming it excessively and aggressively on their own, or through their own politics. (endles btw).
You have a perfect game, that when played out becomes uber sterile. You are not listening to these people here. In one way or another, what these People here are collectively saying, is you are wrong!
You have to share your GAME WORLD, otherwise you don't have jack and just some lunar rat, obsessively trying out how to be Guinness, because he built the next uber-ego testosterone filled PvP game EvAr.. ArcheAge4.. "m3 b rich", because that is the OP's goal.
Additionally, He has no interest in sharing his wonder, with this community. He just wants to data mine us for ideas to better grasp how he can make money.
Sound about right^?
You have no clear vision. Any time you type anymore, it is the same regurgitated hodgepodge that comes out of your mouth. Stop stuttering and drop the bomb on us.
The problem is that recent titles haven't been worthy of a sub for the most part. The sub based games that have come out and failed, gone F2P, did so for a reason and it's nothing to do with the sub, it's all about the quality of the product.
The F2P games lack depth and fail to hold my attention so there's no way I'd sub to any of them either.
Of the older sub games, WoW lost it's way a long time ago, EQ is too dated, and most of the others are running some sort of Freemium service.
Pretty much the only game I still sub to on and off is EVE.
The business model is pretty irrelevant really, I'm more interested in finding a quality MMO and sadly they seem to be few and far between.
Artifice,
You keep telling us what your P2W redux method is based on. But you never let us see it.
You keep touting your vast experience over the years and these uber ideas you have, but again never let us see actual working in-game mechanics based on such theories. You expect us to discuss with you an idea that you will not let loose, and then bow out, or close any thread because that gets to close to you actually having to ante up proof of your design.
Your whole theory is based on verbally repeating other games mistakes, and telling us what is wrong with them (again obvious and many threads all over the internet on the exact same thing) while not offering any actual remedy of your own, other than: "...saying they are implemented correctly."
We would like to hear one game mechanic that you plan on implementing correctly, plz..
Since you can not, YOU are now shutting down another thread and bowing out of the conversation, because it came to the point where you have to actually back your mouth up, with actualities and not theories.
Read your own definition above. You own P2W redux definition above defines nothing, other than you noticed playing those old games, that certain players have advantages.
Nobody cares what your theories are based on (why do you keep repeating that), we care about what they are. You have not defined one theory... and you keep trolling us with your ideas, that are still a secret, still unheard and still not public or open for discussion. It is absurd.
Again, You have been challenged throughout conversation here to provide proof, or one rule that you will implement "correctly" and since you can not, this conversation is done?
Then offer a feeble excuse, that You have developed plenty of other major systems yourself..? Which themselves too, will probably fall apart under scrutiny, because you have shown to have a propensity of being single minded person. Unable to take any criticism for your self proclaimed P2W redux method, that is still secret. Even though you have 2 pages describing what it isn't, none describing what it actually is.
You are still afraid to state the goals of your own game. Or even a map.
Honestly, I think it is about time you took a step back from your works & re-design your method into something tangible and real. (Leaving out the long history of what these ideas are based on. An instead work on giving an actually working example of your method.)
I suggest studying, or looking at the Baby Bells coming (Shroud of the Avatar, Pantheon, Saga of Lucimia, etc) and look at those game's "player advantages"... (which most people simply refer to as "game play") and see if your theories have have a real function.