Twinking, Was it a Proto-MOBA?

KenFisher

I haven't seen this mentioned for ages.  At least several years now.

Is 'Twink PVP' still popular?

Back in TBC, players with high level characters used to custom build low level characters with optimal gear and enchants, and then not level those characters in order to keep them in lower brackets of PVP (battleground and maybe arena).

It was hardcore heaven.  I knew several guildies who were seriously into it.

I know this is a long stretch of definitions, but since these characters were pretty much pure PVP, could Twinking be considered as a Proto-MOBA mini-game inside an MMORPG?

P.S. Don't shoot me, it's just a question.  :awesome: 

EDIT: [SOLVED]  Nope, it was a parallel development.  MOBA predates TBC twinking.  Commercial MOBA, although recent, is based on earlier design.

waynejr2

Wth?  Why does it matter?  This isn't even interesting.  Is this is a thing where you are trying to get fame and fortune "FIRSTing" some new term?

You haven't made a case for your position in my mind so it is a failure.

Bitrip

Omg I totally remember twinking now! That was literally hog heaven for trolls. Heck, even I did it in a couple of games...

KenFisher

waynejr2 said:

Wth?  Why does it matter?

I'm learning game design.  There are several game industry vets on this forum.  They've been very gracious in helping me learn.

My premise is that twink BGs were influential or similar in design to modern MOBAs.

Sorry that it's not interesting stuff.

shalissar

I've always thought that the whole srs e-sport thing people claimed twinking was was really just an excuse they'd use so they could go back to wiping noobs off the map tbh

I remember when Blizz put in the no-exp battlegrounds for the srs e-sport players. You could hear a pin drop for the longest time they were so empty.

waynejr2 said:

Wth?  Why does it matter?  This isn't even interesting.  Is this is a thing where you are trying to get fame and fortune "FIRSTing" some new term?

You haven't made a case for your position in my mind so it is a failure.

I seriously hope you aren't talking about "twinking" because that term has been around for a LONG time.

Fdzzaigl

Not really.

It's more like the entire idea of gear-based MMORPG's and RPG's fed into proto-moba's. Moba's go with the same fulfilling feel of gathering upgrades for your character, but in a repeated arena setting instead of a persistent world.

In fact, I remember multiplayer scenarios similar to the current MOBA's in the original Starcraft multiplayer. Predating DOTA etc.

Grunty

shalissar said:

I've always thought that the whole srs e-sport thing people claimed twinking was was really just an excuse they'd use so they could go back to wiping noobs off the map tbh

I remember when Blizz put in the no-exp battlegrounds for the srs e-sport players. You could hear a pin drop for the longest time they were so empty.

waynejr2 said:

Wth?  Why does it matter?  This isn't even interesting.  Is this is a thing where you are trying to get fame and fortune "FIRSTing" some new term?

You haven't made a case for your position in my mind so it is a failure.

I seriously hope you aren't talking about "twinking" because that term has been around for a LONG time.

I just googled 'twink' to find out how long it's been around. Apparently most of the english speaking world thinks it's a term for a young gay male and not for over equipping gear.

KenFisher

Grunty said:

I just googled 'twink' to find out how long it's been around. Apparently most of the english speaking world thinks it's a term for a young gay male and not for over equipping gear.

Oh sh**.  I didn't know that.  I've never heard the term used that way.

KenFisher

shalissar said:

I've always thought that the whole srs e-sport thing people claimed twinking was was really just an excuse they'd use so they could go back to wiping noobs off the map tbh

I remember when Blizz put in the no-exp battlegrounds for the srs e-sport players. You could hear a pin drop for the longest time they were so empty.

Excuse to splat noobs     Yeah, I could see that.  I think that goes back to is it fair to have a gear advantage in PVP.  Obviously the people with the gear advantage think so.


No-XP battlegrounds?  I've never heard of that.  I thought there was no XP in BGs.  Not doubting you, just curious.

I remember taking a guildie into a dungeon, having him stand at the entrance (too far away to get XP), and me soloing bosses so he could run in and get the blue BOP drops.

Axehilt

The wiki lays down the defining traits of MOBAs pretty clearly, and twink MMORPG PVP shares very few traits with the description.

Also the progression systems are quite different:

• In MOBAs everyone starts equal, and gains progression based on their skill. If you do well (lots of last-hits; enemy kills) then you gradually gain a creeping progression advantage over your opponents over the course of the game.
• In MMORPG PVP, advantages are already established before the match. So it's not a hardcore contest of skill, but a casual game that rewards you for establishing a bunch of advantages beforehand (and doing so requires very little skill, and mostly just time or gold.)

sunandshadow

XAPKen said:

Grunty said:

I just googled 'twink' to find out how long it's been around. Apparently most of the english speaking world thinks it's a term for a young gay male and not for over equipping gear.

Oh sh**.  I didn't know that.  I've never heard the term used that way.

Yeah actually the MMO use of the term came from the gay one, which in turn came from the junk food twinkies.  See, a twink isn't just a young gay male, but is seen as one who has a lot of power in specific environments, like a gay bar, where they tend to be able to pick up anyone they want, despite the fact that they are 'low level' in real world terms due to still being in college and not having had time to build up any wealth or career respect.  Typically twinks are also seen as having a set of attractive features including pretty faces, styled hair, gym-toned muscles, bubble butts, and they are often shaved.  So they are 'tricked out' in a comparable way to MMO twink PvPers.  And probably many of them wish they could stay st their current age/level instead of growing up into a less advantageous competitive situation.

(I found out most of this by looking up the word twink years ago when it appeared in a story I was reading.)

Scorchien

Axehilt said:

The wiki lays down the defining traits of MOBAs pretty clearly, and twink MMORPG PVP shares very few traits with the description.

Also the progression systems are quite different:

• In MOBAs everyone starts equal, and gains progression based on their skill. If you do well (lots of last-hits; enemy kills) then you gradually gain a creeping progression advantage over your opponents over the course of the game.
• In MMORPG PVP, advantages are already established before the match. So it's not a hardcore contest of skill, but a casual game that rewards you for establishing a bunch of advantages beforehand (and doing so requires very little skill, and mostly just time or gold.)

So in a previuos thread you said................... "Sure but skill is always the deciding factor in whether there is "winning" in something."

   and
                         
" Skill determines whether something is winning.

• Skill-based challenges can be won. They involve skill."

  And here you say that very little skill is required to Win ?

         so you seem confuse ..

  seems time to dance with Axehilt again .. de dee dee de  da daahh da daaaa ded eeedeee edeeee  now dance dance dance

                                          

Rusque

By the time you were twinking in TBC (2007) DotA already had existed for years - the map came out in 2003. So yeah, your statement in the OP makes no sense. Unless you don't know what "proto" means, in which case maybe it makes sense to you.

KenFisher

Rusque said:

By the time you were twinking in TBC (2007) DotA already had existed for years - the map came out in 2003. So yeah, your statement in the OP makes no sense. Unless you don't know what "proto" means, in which case maybe it makes sense to you.

Great info, thanks.  I was not aware that DotA pre-existed twinking in TBC.

Yes, that does kill the theory.

Very helpful, appreciated.

Axehilt

Scorchien said:

So in a previuos thread you said................... "Sure but skill is always the deciding factor in whether there is "winning" in something."

   and
                         
" Skill determines whether something is winning.

• Skill-based challenges can be won. They involve skill."

  And here you say that very little skill is required to Win ?

 so you seem confuse ..

  seems time to dance with Axehilt again .. de dee dee de  da daahh da daaaa ded eeedeee edeeee  now dance dance dance

QUESTION: Which phrases best matches the phrase "very little skill":

• no skill
• very little skill

Twink PVP requires a little skill, and therefore involves winning.

Twink PVP requires less skill than a game purely about skill. In a game where everyone has equal progression (pure PVP), you will only win by being more skilled than your opponent.  In a game where one player has a significant advantage, less skill will be required (relative to the strength of the advantage; and in MMORPGs it can be quite significant to the point where skill is almost irrelevant and the advantaged player would have to basically AFK to lose.)

Scorchien

Axehilt said:

Scorchien said:

So in a previuos thread you said................... "Sure but skill is always the deciding factor in whether there is "winning" in something."

   and
                         
" Skill determines whether something is winning.

• Skill-based challenges can be won. They involve skill."

  And here you say that very little skill is required to Win ?

 so you seem confuse ..

  seems time to dance with Axehilt again .. de dee dee de  da daahh da daaaa ded eeedeee edeeee  now dance dance dance

QUESTION: Which phrases best matches the phrase "very little skill":

• no skill
• very little skill

Twink PVP requires a little skill, and therefore involves winning.

Twink PVP requires less skill than a game purely about skill. In a game where everyone has equal progression (pure PVP), you will only win by being more skilled than your opponent.  In a game where one player has a significant advantage, less skill will be required (relative to the strength of the advantage; and in MMORPGs it can be quite significant to the point where skill is almost irrelevant and the advantaged player would have to basically AFK to lose.)

lol weaksauce .. you can dacne better than .... i thought ..

KenFisher

sunandshadow said:

 

(I found out most of this by looking up the word twink years ago when it appeared in a story I was reading.)

You are nothing short of amazing.  Thank you for explaining.  I had no clue.  The social pop-culture aspect of life escapes me.

Axehilt

Scorchien said:

lol weaksauce .. you can dacne better than .... i thought ..

If you want a discussion you're going to have to say something of merit first.  What you've posted so far is utterly incoherent.

KenFisher

Axehilt said:

The wiki lays down the defining traits of MOBAs pretty clearly, and twink MMORPG PVP shares very few traits with the description.

Also the progression systems are quite different:

• In MOBAs everyone starts equal, and gains progression based on their skill. If you do well (lots of last-hits; enemy kills) then you gradually gain a creeping progression advantage over your opponents over the course of the game.
• In MMORPG PVP, advantages are already established before the match. So it's not a hardcore contest of skill, but a casual game that rewards you for establishing a bunch of advantages beforehand (and doing so requires very little skill, and mostly just time or gold.)

Could you share the progression system differences in more specific terms?

1, Does a MOBA character keep the progression that it gains during a match, and make use of that progression through increased performance, in the next match?

2, Agreed on the "casual game that rewards establishment of advantages beforehand".  That matches my understanding of TBC twinking exactly.

If 1 is yes, and 2 is agreed upon, then one major difference is that 'advantage' in MOBA is gained during battle arena play, and 'advantage' in TBC twinking is gained OUTSIDE of battleground play.

Am I close in understanding?

Thanks for your time with this !!!

Axehilt

XAPKen said:

Could you share the progression system differences in more specific terms?

1, Does a MOBA character keep the progression that it gains during a match, and make use of that progression through increased performance, in the next match?

2, Agreed on the "casual game that rewards establishment of advantages beforehand".  That matches my understanding of TBC twinking exactly.

If 1 is yes, and 2 is agreed upon, then one major difference is that 'advantage' in MOBA is gained during battle arena play, and 'advantage' in TBC twinking is gained OUTSIDE of battleground play.

Am I close in understanding?

Thanks for your time with this !!!

Yeah you understand it. The time when the advantage is gained (before vs. during the match*) is the key.

Many MOBAs don't have any progression that carries over between matches. At least none that affects the match. You still have things like mastery skins and new champion unlocks, but you can only choose one champion to play in any given match and they're all of balanced power (so unlocking them doesn't make you stronger**.)

A few MOBAs do have progression that carries over.  LoL has Summoner Levels which provide WOW-like talent progression. The realistic impact of this progression is extremely minor though because of a few factors:

• The progression is maybe 4% of your overall power progression in a match so you'd only have a tiny advantage if you were a level 30 player fighting a level 1
• The matchmaker never creates a level 30 vs. level 1 match. Typically you're fighting players of very similar level.
• Eventually everyone caps at level 30 and the power difference disappears entirely.

Even though the impact is almost negligible, I'm not a huge fan of the system and the game would be better off without it.  The idea that sometimes progression differences might matter is something that reduces PVP quality for me (for me the point of PVP is skillful competition.)

* In other genres "the match" isn't necessarily one session long. Although a game still has to worry about whether making any given session fun and interesting.
**  There's a legit argument here that having the option of Champion A vs. B vs. C is actually a slight power increase if Champion A is better against your opponent's champion than B or C. This is true, and flexibility is a form of power, but it's small enough that it's not a very significant factor except at high-end play.

Axehilt

[mod edit]

[mod edit] No games mentioned here require zero skill.

KenFisher

Axehilt said:

 

**  There's a legit argument here that having the option of Champion A vs. B vs. C is actually a slight power increase if Champion A is better against your opponent's champion than B or C. This is true, and flexibility is a form of power, but it's small enough that it's not a very significant factor except at high-end play.

I like the rock, paper, scissors system in MMORPG classes.  I can see the argument against it for sportsman competition.

One that I play has a couple OP heroes.  It's not a secret.  It's all about levels and outside gained advantage.  They call it an RPG-MOBA hybrid, but from what I've learned today, it's not very MOBA like.

I seldom get opportunity to have human conversation with someone well informed.

Can you throw me a yes / no at this?  I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but oblige me if you will.

"for me the point of PVP is skillful competition"  Is that a significantly different player mindset than "gear up and splatter the noobs"  ???

Thanks again.

Wizardry

This happened in an Aeria game i was playing and it was just really bad.It caused such an unbalanced pvp that tons of complaints caused them to change the level of certain gear so it could not be used in the lowest tier pvp.

I started way back in prolly the first competitive pvp scene Quake then became Unreal and what i have found is players don't want pvp,they just want to win at all costs.When the pvp scene became too competitive those that could not compete started to cheat "CS being one of the biggest cheat games ever".They also began to ask for mods that gave them a safer feeling and started to participate in pvp that had more players around them to give them a sense of safety.

Basically the 1 on 1 imo almost died right out,players just hate to lose and why i have said since those days that pvp is just a bad idea all around for most games.

sunandshadow

Wizardry said:

Basically the 1 on 1 imo almost died right out,players just hate to lose and why i have said since those days that pvp is just a bad idea all around for most games.

When I did that survey about what people like in MMOs, 1v1 PvP was noticeably unpopular - surprised me quite a bit, as I am not a PvPer so I don't know from experience which kinds are preferable, and I often think of PvP in the context of CCG duels, which are generally 1v1.

JDis25

Definitely similar. Twinking certainly helped assimilate many MMORPG players to MOBAS. I loved twinking, it was fun as hell. If there was an MMO that simplified leveling down into 20 levels and then had you progress for gear, certain skills, and abilities; while simultaneously opening up the whole world to PvP, that would be ideal, especially with some sandbox features.

Beatnik59

I'm aware of the sexual connotations of the term 'twink', but we were using the term since the early 90's in pen and paper circles.

In those days, and in those circles, a 'twink' was a character that was deliberately rolled up to win dice rolls.  Players would photocopy about a hundred or more character sheets, roll up the attributes, keep the one character with the ungodly high stats in STR, DEX and CON, and throw the rest of the 99 away.  They were the first min/maxers.