Creating MMOs to help RL science

Alumicard

I had a discussion with some friends and I want to check a thought that came up.
The basic topic was how to improve science and my view as a gamer was get gamers involved. So one take on the matter was that in physics you have some basic rules that can't be broken. But there is a way to exploit those rules like it is done with the theoretical Alcubierre Drive (basicly Warp drive, google ftw!).

So my idea was to create a MMO that follows all rules known to math, physics,...all the sciences and let hackers and exploiters take it apart to find ways to get around obstacles like the speed of light is as fast as you can go.

What do you think? Is it possible to create such a MMO and if it is, might it work to help us improve science?
I'm curious what you think about it.

JamesP

IMO it would be WAY too resource intensive. No Computer or Server would be able to run it...

reb007

There are basically already "video games" that are used by scientists for the purpose of theoretical physics, etc. Simulators, virtual representations of various scientific areas.

Simulators were probably used to design the microprocessor that's being used to power the device you're using to read this message.

Hackers wouldn't be hacking physics, they would probably be hacking the operating system or hardware used to run the simulator.

Vrika

There is no way to get around the laws of physics. Only laws of physic we don't know about or are wrong about.

Even if we could create such a simulator, it would be useless. It could not be used to detect laws we're wrong about or don't know about because those would not be simulated, and it could not be used to detect unforeseen consequences of the laws we know about because we wouldn't notice when we've stumbled upon one.

eye_m

I think the gamers "hero" syndrome is getting out of hand

Alumicard

gigat said:

There are basically already "video games" that are used by scientists for the purpose of theoretical physics, etc. Simulators, virtual representations of various scientific areas.

Simulators were probably used to design the microprocessor that's being used to power the device you're using to read this message.

Hackers wouldn't be hacking physics, they would probably be hacking the operating system or hardware used to run the simulator.

Well yes there are games out there to find solutions to scientific problems. i.e. I can remember a game to map the nerves in the eye. And yes ofc any processing unit is simulated at first but so far I haven't heard of an approach in the area of physics.

Vrika said:

There is no way to get around the laws of physics. Only laws of physic we don't know about or are wrong about.

Even if we could create such a simulator, it would be useless. It could not be used to detect laws we're wrong about or don't know about because those would not be simulated, and it could not be used to detect unforeseen consequences of the laws we know about because we wouldn't notice when we've stumbled upon one.

Why wouldn't we notice? If someone manages to do something that is seen as impossible by normal standarts then it would point to something that is either wrong in the program/game or physics. So I disagree with your assumption that we wouldn't notice a fault in the system.

eye_m said:

I think the gamers "hero" syndrome is getting out of hand

I don't really mean to go into the hero direction but try to identify new approaches to problems. Or well that might be a job I have but in this case I must admit it was a theory or idea I had under the influence

Vrika

Alumicard said:

Vrika said:

There is no way to get around the laws of physics. Only laws of physic we don't know about or are wrong about.

Even if we could create such a simulator, it would be useless. It could not be used to detect laws we're wrong about or don't know about because those would not be simulated, and it could not be used to detect unforeseen consequences of the laws we know about because we wouldn't notice when we've stumbled upon one.

Why wouldn't we notice? If someone manages to do something that is seen as impossible by normal standarts then it would point to something that is either wrong in the program/game or physics. So I disagree with your assumption that we wouldn't notice a fault in the system.

Would you notice how to use spacetime folded like that? It would need a trained physicist just to know what does contracting and expanding spacetime mean, let alone notice how to use it when you see it.

Image copyright: "Alcubierre" by AllenMcC. - Own work. Licensed under CC BY-SA 3.0 via Commons - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Alcubierre.png#/media/File:Alcubierre.png

Axehilt

Alumicard said:

Why wouldn't we notice? If someone manages to do something that is seen as impossible by normal standarts then it would point to something that is either wrong in the program/game or physics. So I disagree with your assumption that we wouldn't notice a fault in the system.

I don't really mean to go into the hero direction but try to identify new approaches to problems. Or well that might be a job I have but in this case I must admit it was a theory or idea I had under the influence

The fundamental flaw is that the game model would be built on our existing understanding of the laws of nature. Our understanding of those laws is imperfect. Our ability to create the model is also imperfect (it will be buggy and won't allow for every type of interaction that's possible.) Due to those limitations, the resulting simulation would make it very difficult to make meaningful discoveries.

The general approach of using games to support problem-solving is fantastic, though.  It's just that certain types of problems will be dramatically more solvable by games than others.  I think you could probably create some pretty amazing games around optimizing computer algorithms, for example.

Alumicard

Axehilt said:

Alumicard said:

Why wouldn't we notice? If someone manages to do something that is seen as impossible by normal standarts then it would point to something that is either wrong in the program/game or physics. So I disagree with your assumption that we wouldn't notice a fault in the system.

I don't really mean to go into the hero direction but try to identify new approaches to problems. Or well that might be a job I have but in this case I must admit it was a theory or idea I had under the influence

The fundamental flaw is that the game model would be built on our existing understanding of the laws of nature. Our understanding of those laws is imperfect. Our ability to create the model is also imperfect (it will be buggy and won't allow for every type of interaction that's possible.) Due to those limitations, the resulting simulation would make it very difficult to make meaningful discoveries.

The general approach of using games to support problem-solving is fantastic, though.  It's just that certain types of problems will be dramatically more solvable by games than others.  I think you could probably create some pretty amazing games around optimizing computer algorithms, for example.

But the model would include everything we know. Just take a look at the example Vrika gave, the Alcubierre drive. Relativity says we can not move faster than light but it also says movement of space has no limits. So although the theoretical rules say " No you can't" you actually can because someone hacked those rules.

Vrika said:

Alumicard said:

Vrika said:

There is no way to get around the laws of physics. Only laws of physic we don't know about or are wrong about.

Even if we could create such a simulator, it would be useless. It could not be used to detect laws we're wrong about or don't know about because those would not be simulated, and it could not be used to detect unforeseen consequences of the laws we know about because we wouldn't notice when we've stumbled upon one.

Why wouldn't we notice? If someone manages to do something that is seen as impossible by normal standarts then it would point to something that is either wrong in the program/game or physics. So I disagree with your assumption that we wouldn't notice a fault in the system.

Would you notice how to use spacetime folded like that? It would need a trained physicist just to know what does contracting and expanding spacetime mean, let alone notice how to use it when you see it.

Image copyright: "Alcubierre" by AllenMcC. - Own work. Licensed under CC BY-SA 3.0 via Commons - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Alcubierre.png#/media/File:Alcubierre.png

First you say there is no way to get around the laws of physics and now you come with a warp drive that actually works in theory and is a way to show that while we CAN'T move faster than light we actually can move faster than light IF we do this and that. Given that you said that "There is no way to get around the laws of physics" and then show that we actually CAN get around the laws of physics I assume you have proven yourself wrong.
And I get how the Alcubierre drive works after studying the research but I couldn't have came up with the idea at the time, afterall it is Alcubierre and not Alumicard drive
On the point that "It would need a trained physicist just to know what does contracting and expanding spacetime mean, let alone notice how to use it when you see it." I strongly disagree. In the picture you posted you see a high on the backside and a low on the front side given you read from left to right. So that means you move (in simple terms) from a high point to a lower point therefore downhill. And because the middle part is horizontal people might assume it stays that way on the route downhill which is true. In that drive the middle doesnt change and moves in a way downhill aka towards the gravity.

But that kind of proves my point. If hackers and/or just weird aka out of the box thinking people had a way to access the overall concept of reality via a game they might not need to understand the underlying physics but could take them as granted and just hack the hell out of them to behave like they want to.
Like a child pressing space a few times to hack the xbox/ps login system (google). The child has no idea about coding and is far from a master degree in computer science but it still managed to beat the security of a multi billion dollar company.

If some coder, dev or some person how knows is around.... Is it even possible to include all the physics in a game? I understand we are able to include gravity and the laws of newton but do we have the tech to simulate stranger stuff i.e. quantum behavior on a scale of a MMO? Maybe not the possibility to "zoom in" to that lvl but just to include it in the computation, for lack of a better word, upwards.