Like anything else that you are putting an upfront cost into (kinda like B2P) it mostly just mandates you know or learn something about the individuals behind the project and find if you feel you can trust them as a developer.
Look at their project plan and goals and try and reason out if it seems to be a reasonable objective they have set. What tools they say they are using, the kind of development curve they expect to deal with, regularity of their interaction with the community they are forming around the project(s), etc.
It's ultimately a gamble, but you don't have to be going in blind, as there are a lot of variables for you to learn about and utilize when deciding on whether or not it's going to be a meaningful investment to you. Sometimes the predictions fail, but you can minimize that failure greatly with even a slight pause to assess the projects.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
When you give money to any and all projects, consider that money lost and WHEN or IF the project is completed, consider the pledge perks as a bonus.
I think that's a pretty accurate view of how Kickstarter works.
The Terms and Conditions don't offer any guaratnees. Since the "investors" (backers) have no say in the production process, it all depends on the good will of whoever you pledged for.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
The thing about Kickstarter that drives me nuts, is when a company with several successful games decides to release a new game through Kickstarter.
Isn't that what your other successful games were for? If you didn't make enough money to continue, time to stop.
Just free money and advertising at this point.
If there are gullible people who would give them free money, with no string attached, is there a reason a company should not take it?
Actually, the reality is that using crowdfunding significantly derisks the development of that product. Even if they have $10 million in the bank, if they can raise $2 million through KS, they ensure that there is adequate interest in seeing that game (or another version of that game), they build hype/market interest, and the consumer gets something that's significantly less risk than some projects that may be on there.
The thing about Kickstarter that drives me nuts, is when a company with several successful games decides to release a new game through Kickstarter.
Isn't that what your other successful games were for? If you didn't make enough money to continue, time to stop.
Just free money and advertising at this point.
I would say it's minimizing risk. I get where you are coming from as you seem to be coming from a place of "fair play".
Small companies/groups not being able to fund an idea so that they reach out to fans, they then become successful and are able to move forward on their own steam.
However, I think small companies are thinking that they are going to minimize risk by cutting out actual investors (who are expecting a monetary return back) or essentially feeling they can resort to kickstarter and not have to reinvest their seed money. Now, to be fair back to them, it depends on how successful they were. If they were able to pay reasonable salaries/bills and only get a small profit in return that would not be able to start up another project then I think they can get a "pass".
After all, there is a lot of small entertainment out there that wouldn't be able to sustain itself if not for people actively interested.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I just came up with the most suitable analogy, I think. I'm just getting over a cold right now. Sometimes when I have a cold and I've got to fart, I'll go sit on the toilet....just to be sure it's only a fart. Most the time it's just a fart, but sometimes it's not. So people who don't like crowdfunding are just those people who sit on the toilet whenever they have to fart. People who invest in Kickstarter campaigns might take a risk here and there if they're confident it's only a fart. Maybe once in a while they guess wrong, but that's the risk they take. Myself? I have yet to shit my pants and I have yet to experience a game which didn't deliver.
So it could be a little gut feeling and it could be a little research.
Whoever that person is gets it. Although I don't agree with the first sentence of the last paragraph. Obviously you are donating because you expect something in return, namely what is expressed in whatever tier package you paid for. But to absolutely expect a 100% money-back guarantee if something goes wrong is unrealistic.
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
30,000$ wont even pay the salary of 1 coder. So I would like to say that the person who was behind the project lost out a lot more then any of the backers. Don't complain because a kickstarter never produces anything. They need millions of dollars to produce a game and without full and complete funding you will never see it. Cant expect coders and developers to work for free can we.
Yeah... I gotta figure that 30k is little compensation compared to your career being pretty much over, and spending the next few years always having to look over your shoulder.
*Shrugs* A fool and his money are soon parted. I don't feel bad about cases like these, if people don't do their research or they're willing to give money to some unproven development company/person then they deserve to lose it. I mean this is especially true with MMO games on kickstarter. People who hand money over to an indie dev and actually expect something to get made? Stupidity or naivety. One of the two.
Well well well... who would have thought that after the numerous Kickstarter fiascos, namely Greed Monger, etc... that another game would have the nerve to just disappear and steal $30,000 out of the backers.
Care to elaborate on the ETC that follows greed monger? I'm honestly curious how normal this is, you say numerous, yet just name one? Another important factor is how many projects failed rather than had a "fiasco" like this...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well well well... who would have thought that after the numerous
Kickstarter fiascos, namely Greed Monger, etc... that another game would
have the nerve to just disappear and steal $30,000 out of the backers.
Care to elaborate on the ETC that follows greed monger? I'm honestly
curious how normal this is, you say numerous, yet just name one? Another
important factor is how many projects failed rather than had a "fiasco"
like this...
Pretty much my thoughts when I saw the post. It was hilarious that a
person, who was seemingly trying to be serious, only managed to note a
single game off the top of their head without research and while on
their little crusade. Then we have someone with compiled data come
along saying they've noted a 83% success rate so far, and actually
provides a link to their work.
This is just a case of a rare thing happening, and people capitalizing on it for their own propaganda on it because screw the facts and actual statistics. Some random project that few people heard of, that most saw through as sketchy (only getting 30k) with no past history or big names to back them up didn't turn out to be capable of something. Let's go up and arms and be the internet and not do any prior research ourselves, being just as -- in my opinion -- foolish as those who didn't research before pledging.
Like any other financial investment risk, one should only invest what one can afford to lose. The problem being that some people are very gullible/naive and are unable to understand this very simple investment rule. These are the real victim's in these crowd-funded/kick-starter projects. Many of these victims have families and in their inability to restrain themselves, they impulsively "contribute" thousands of dollars leaving themselves and their families in dire financial straits. Some to the tune of destabilizing family bonds and even losing their families. This is a major reason why, not unlike many ventures in life that tend to take advantage of the naive and gullible in life if not regulated, these crowd-funded/kick-starter pose the same risks and need to be receive equal attention and regulation.
This is something I would agree with on a fundamental level. In fact, I've even condemned some cash shops in game for preying on these activities. People with compulsive disorders ultimately need to give their finances to someone else in their family. Though in the cases where they refuse to do this -- thereby putting their entire family in danger -- they are easy to take money from, and rarely conduct themselves in a fashion one would expect of an adult in that they should do research prior to putting money towards anything. This includes pre-orders for games that are fully published by a developer or third party (with their "exclusive" pre-order bonuses that they oft strip out of the core game and sell in pieces).
Though as a whole, it also creates a problem for those who are able to take control of themselves. There's a definite split of those who believe "F2P" games are the cheapest form of entertainment, and those who think it's the most expensive due to an inability to control their impulses or the want to have what other people have just because they want it (again, dealing with impulses). These $100+ founders pack also prey on such individuals, who want access to the shiny new thing as soon as possible, only to stop playing it a week later in most cases.
Someone should post that giant google doc with all the success/fail launches, to keep things in perspective.
Almost nightly you can see news coverage of a car crash. Yet most of us consider driving safe enough to do it daily. Much of the risk involved in driving is manageable (that guy's swerving a lot; better steer clear.)
It's the same deal with Kickstarter. Most of the risk is manageable, and in spite of the occasional "crash" the platform overall is pretty safe.
The internet is a dangerous place to have common sense in.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
All this talk about "It's a donation".... So what? Even charities get investigated for fraud. If you misrepresent yourself when asking for money, the FTC can come after you.
At the very least, if this continues to happen, laws and/or policies will have to change.
I agree with the person who said KS should do a better job policing this kind of thing.
Whoever that person is gets it. Although I don't agree with the first sentence of the last paragraph. Obviously you are donating because you expect something in return, namely what is expressed in whatever tier package you paid for. But to absolutely expect a 100% money-back guarantee if something goes wrong is unrealistic.
Change your expect to hope, and it is good. Expect makes it fall into pre-order even if you won't admit it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
The issue is, when it comes to kickstart you are backing projects that have no 100% guarantee to succeed. Much like investing (the same stuff that happens with games that are AAA funded) people are putting up money for a product in hopes of it coming to fruition.
That said, the fact it collapsed and wasn't going to work should of been clearly told rather then hidden away. It should be clear to your investors (aka Kick-start supporters) how the project is going and to highlight issues. People have to understand it won't always work, but they should be given a decent outline of all the aspects of the project and hurdles it might have.
The issue is, when it comes to kickstart you are backing projects that have no 100% guarantee to succeed. Much like investing (the same stuff that happens with games that are AAA funded) people are putting up money for a product in hopes of it coming to fruition.
That said, the fact it collapsed and wasn't going to work should of been clearly told rather then hidden away. It should be clear to your investors (aka Kick-start supporters) how the project is going and to highlight issues. People have to understand it won't always work, but they should be given a decent outline of all the aspects of the project and hurdles it might have.
There is a difference. In investment, you cannot get the same return without any risk.
In entertainment, there are tons of fun games with zero risks. Hence, i don't have to risk a dime for my entertainment.
Kickstarter is a hit or a miss. You should know that going in and backing any project. I've backed two and gotten both delivered (Divinity, and Wasteland 2). But I'm super hesitant normally, which is how you should always be when giving money to anyone for something that doesn't exist yet. There will always be the people who bit off more than they can handle and abandon the project without saying anything. Or the scammers who do the same exact thing. It isn't the fault of anyone but the donators.
Whoever that person is gets it. Although I don't agree with the first sentence of the last paragraph. Obviously you are donating because you expect something in return, namely what is expressed in whatever tier package you paid for. But to absolutely expect a 100% money-back guarantee if something goes wrong is unrealistic.
Change your expect to hope, and it is good. Expect makes it fall into pre-order even if you won't admit it.
You raise a good point. My first KSed game was Greed Monger... yes, yes I know. THAT caused me to actually look into the past history of whomever I was thinking of KSing in the future. So as an informed donator now I do kinda treat all the KSers I now back as a pre-order. So far out of the five KSers I've donated to from after the GM fiasco to 2014 all but one have delivered something, from alphas to full game.
So yes I guess I do treat the games I donate to as Pre-orders. But I also treat my donations to said games as donations, with expectations of something in return down the line. If that does not happen you will not see me on these forums crying about it though. That is the jist of the above SS: Donate at your own risk.
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
So as an informed donator now I do kinda treat all the KSers I now back as a pre-order.
No, no, no and no!
Do not mistake a Pre-Order of a game with giving away donations on Kickstarter in the hopes of the project materialising itself.
They are very, very different things!
Again I see where you are coming from. But the fact is that KS exists to donate money to various projects in the expectation of getting something in return. So it is "pre-ordering" in a sense.
But in relation to what you and others are saying you cannot 100% money back guarantee pinkey-swear I'll get it expect anything.
They are very, very different things!
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
Comments
Isn't that what your other successful games were for? If you didn't make enough money to continue, time to stop.
Just free money and advertising at this point.
Look at their project plan and goals and try and reason out if it seems to be a reasonable objective they have set. What tools they say they are using, the kind of development curve they expect to deal with, regularity of their interaction with the community they are forming around the project(s), etc.
It's ultimately a gamble, but you don't have to be going in blind, as there are a lot of variables for you to learn about and utilize when deciding on whether or not it's going to be a meaningful investment to you. Sometimes the predictions fail, but you can minimize that failure greatly with even a slight pause to assess the projects.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
The Terms and Conditions don't offer any guaratnees. Since the "investors" (backers) have no say in the production process, it all depends on the good will of whoever you pledged for.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Small companies/groups not being able to fund an idea so that they reach out to fans, they then become successful and are able to move forward on their own steam.
However, I think small companies are thinking that they are going to minimize risk by cutting out actual investors (who are expecting a monetary return back) or essentially feeling they can resort to kickstarter and not have to reinvest their seed money. Now, to be fair back to them, it depends on how successful they were. If they were able to pay reasonable salaries/bills and only get a small profit in return that would not be able to start up another project then I think they can get a "pass".
After all, there is a lot of small entertainment out there that wouldn't be able to sustain itself if not for people actively interested.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
So it could be a little gut feeling and it could be a little research.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This is just a case of a rare thing happening, and people capitalizing on it for their own propaganda on it because screw the facts and actual statistics. Some random project that few people heard of, that most saw through as sketchy (only getting 30k) with no past history or big names to back them up didn't turn out to be capable of something. Let's go up and arms and be the internet and not do any prior research ourselves, being just as -- in my opinion -- foolish as those who didn't research before pledging.
This is something I would agree with on a fundamental level. In fact, I've even condemned some cash shops in game for preying on these activities. People with compulsive disorders ultimately need to give their finances to someone else in their family. Though in the cases where they refuse to do this -- thereby putting their entire family in danger -- they are easy to take money from, and rarely conduct themselves in a fashion one would expect of an adult in that they should do research prior to putting money towards anything. This includes pre-orders for games that are fully published by a developer or third party (with their "exclusive" pre-order bonuses that they oft strip out of the core game and sell in pieces).
Though as a whole, it also creates a problem for those who are able to take control of themselves. There's a definite split of those who believe "F2P" games are the cheapest form of entertainment, and those who think it's the most expensive due to an inability to control their impulses or the want to have what other people have just because they want it (again, dealing with impulses). These $100+ founders pack also prey on such individuals, who want access to the shiny new thing as soon as possible, only to stop playing it a week later in most cases.
The internet is a dangerous place to have common sense in.
So what?
Even charities get investigated for fraud. If you misrepresent yourself when asking for money, the FTC can come after you.
At the very least, if this continues to happen, laws and/or policies will have to change.
I agree with the person who said KS should do a better job policing this kind of thing.
Change your expect to hope, and it is good. Expect makes it fall into pre-order even if you won't admit it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
That said, the fact it collapsed and wasn't going to work should of been clearly told rather then hidden away. It should be clear to your investors (aka Kick-start supporters) how the project is going and to highlight issues. People have to understand it won't always work, but they should be given a decent outline of all the aspects of the project and hurdles it might have.
Again, i don't see the logic of KS at all ... but hey, it is not my money, and certainly KS is providing tons of free entertainment on this forum.
There is a difference. In investment, you cannot get the same return without any risk.
In entertainment, there are tons of fun games with zero risks. Hence, i don't have to risk a dime for my entertainment.
So yes I guess I do treat the games I donate to as Pre-orders. But I also treat my donations to said games as donations, with expectations of something in return down the line. If that does not happen you will not see me on these forums crying about it though. That is the jist of the above SS: Donate at your own risk.
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
Do not mistake a Pre-Order of a game with giving away donations on Kickstarter in the hopes of the project materialising itself.
They are very, very different things!
New players can get a welcome package and old/returning players can also get a welcome back package and 7 days free subscription time! Just click here to use my referral invitation
But in relation to what you and others are saying you cannot 100% money back guarantee pinkey-swear I'll get it expect anything.
They are very, very different things!
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.