So as an informed donator now I do kinda treat all the KSers I now back as a pre-order.
No, no, no and no!
Do not mistake a Pre-Order of a game with giving away donations on Kickstarter in the hopes of the project materialising itself.
They are very, very different things!
Again I see where you are coming from. But the fact is that KS exists to donate money to various projects in the expectation of getting something in return. So it is "pre-ordering" in a sense.
But in relation to what you and others are saying you cannot 100% money back guarantee pinkey-swear I'll get it expect anything.
They are very, very different things!
Nope you are getting it very wrong. The expectation is a false one. You are donating to a project. That is what kickstarter is about. IF and only IF the project succeeds then you will receive a 'reward' for being a donor. If it fails, and most will, you get nothing.
So as an informed donator now I do kinda treat all the KSers I now back as a pre-order.
No, no, no and no!
Do not mistake a Pre-Order of a game with giving away donations on Kickstarter in the hopes of the project materialising itself.
They are very, very different things!
Again I see where you are coming from. But the fact is that KS exists to donate money to various projects in the expectation of getting something in return. So it is "pre-ordering" in a sense.
But in relation to what you and others are saying you cannot 100% money back guarantee pinkey-swear I'll get it expect anything.
They are very, very different things!
Nope you are getting it very wrong. The expectation is a false one. You are donating to a project. That is what kickstarter is about. IF and only IF the project succeeds then you will receive a 'reward' for being a donor. If it fails, and most will, you get nothing.
Why the fuck would I donate money to a game and expect nothing in return? I'm not a charity.
I understand that YOU think KS is a scam. But you are wrong. Their are very few failures compared to the successes.
Of course I have expectations that a KS will succeed. So do the people starting the KS. Not everyone on KS is a scam artist. Hell, I don't think Jason Appleton was a scam artist, at least as far as GM was concerned. Just in over his head. Was I and 666 (heh, that is the actual number that KS) other people wrong about GM? Hell yeah we were. Have we all learned from it? I have as I stated in a previous post. As have most of them I'm sure. Just because one project was mismanaged does not mean KS is a Ponzi Scheme. Just because a couple of actual scammers ran away with donations does not mean that ALL KS are frauds. Good god I thought I was a pessimist.
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
So as an informed donator now I do kinda treat all the KSers I now back as a pre-order.
No, no, no and no!
Do not mistake a Pre-Order of a game with giving away donations on Kickstarter in the hopes of the project materialising itself.
They are very, very different things!
Again I see where you are coming from. But the fact is that KS exists to donate money to various projects in the expectation of getting something in return. So it is "pre-ordering" in a sense.
But in relation to what you and others are saying you cannot 100% money back guarantee pinkey-swear I'll get it expect anything.
They are very, very different things!
Nope you are getting it very wrong. The expectation is a false one. You are donating to a project. That is what kickstarter is about. IF and only IF the project succeeds then you will receive a 'reward' for being a donor. If it fails, and most will, you get nothing.
Why the fuck would I donate money to a game and expect nothing in return? I'm not a charity.
I understand that YOU think KS is a scam. But you are wrong. Their are very few failures compared to the successes.
Of course I have expectations that a KS will succeed. So do the people starting the KS. Not everyone on KS is a scam artist. Hell, I don't think Jason Appleton was a scam artist, at least as far as GM was concerned. Just in over his head. Was I and 666 (heh, that is the actual number that KS) other people wrong about GM? Hell yeah we were. Have we all learned from it? I have as I stated in a previous post. As have most of them I'm sure. Just because one project was mismanaged does not mean KS is a Ponzi Scheme. Just because a couple of actual scammers ran away with donations does not mean that ALL KS are frauds. Good god I thought I was a pessimist.
No I do not think Kickstarter is a scam. It is a facilitator for people to DONATE to other people's projects.
If you are "not a charity" then Kickstarter and similar are not for you.
The thing about Kickstarter that drives me nuts, is when a company with several successful games decides to release a new game through Kickstarter.
Isn't that what your other successful games were for? If you didn't make enough money to continue, time to stop.
Just free money and advertising at this point.
Most of those kinds of kickstarters are for extra features, i.e. they
can (and will) make the base game themselves but they need an extra few (million)
dollars to hire extra staff so they can add X, Y, Z in a reasonable time
frame.
So yes, it is money and free advertising, but when you can get in for a low price (compared to launch) and, if you feel like it, snag a few extra goodies along the way, then why not?
I will admit that I do have an issue when it comes to reward tiers above a few hundred dollars though, as they do seem like a bit of scam designed to get money out of die hard fans, but hey, if people have that sort of money to throw away then I'll happily reap the benefits of whatever stretch goal it went towards.
IMO Kickstarter should be shut down,they have no terms of service no rules or guidelines,just a website sticking their hands into that free money basket.
I have no idea how the law would allow a business to take money under any account and have no binding law to protect that money.ANYONE and everyone knows the term donations is BS.If you are giving something in return for that money i consider it a sale and purchase.Even if there was nothing in return we all know the intent of that money is NOT a simple donation but in fact an investment to build a game.
The money should be held in trust with intent to deliver said promise.
If you go to kickstarter Twitter page it is an absolute joke at all the various ideas people are asking money for,to the point is is extremely laughable that anyone would hand over money.A LOT of the scams are bound around sensitive topics ,they know it will reach out to people to get their money.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
So as an informed donator now I do kinda treat all the KSers I now back as a pre-order.
No, no, no and no!
Do not mistake a Pre-Order of a game with giving away donations on Kickstarter in the hopes of the project materialising itself.
They are very, very different things!
Again I see where you are coming from. But the fact is that KS exists to donate money to various projects in the expectation of getting something in return. So it is "pre-ordering" in a sense.
But in relation to what you and others are saying you cannot 100% money back guarantee pinkey-swear I'll get it expect anything.
They are very, very different things!
Nope you are getting it very wrong. The expectation is a false one. You are donating to a project. That is what kickstarter is about. IF and only IF the project succeeds then you will receive a 'reward' for being a donor. If it fails, and most will, you get nothing.
Why the fuck would I donate money to a game and expect nothing in return? I'm not a charity.
I understand that YOU think KS is a scam. But you are wrong. Their are very few failures compared to the successes.
Of course I have expectations that a KS will succeed. So do the people starting the KS. Not everyone on KS is a scam artist. Hell, I don't think Jason Appleton was a scam artist, at least as far as GM was concerned. Just in over his head. Was I and 666 (heh, that is the actual number that KS) other people wrong about GM? Hell yeah we were. Have we all learned from it? I have as I stated in a previous post. As have most of them I'm sure. Just because one project was mismanaged does not mean KS is a Ponzi Scheme. Just because a couple of actual scammers ran away with donations does not mean that ALL KS are frauds. Good god I thought I was a pessimist.
No I do not think Kickstarter is a scam. It is a facilitator for people to DONATE to other people's projects.
If you are "not a charity" then Kickstarter and similar are not for you.
I'm honestly not understanding where you are coming from.
You think the idea behind KS is to donate money to people that are trying to fund things that they are going to later charge people for and to NOT expect them to repay your donation by giving you what they are offering? You do realize that the repayment of the donation by getting the product that they are asking donations for in the first place is the incentive to donate right? Plus any added bonuses they put in for further incentive.
As to my charity remark, I see charity as a donation to a cause (Red Cross, Children's Miracle Network etc) that I will only get the satisfaction of helping people I don't know nor will probably never come into contact with. You know, that feelgood kind of thing.
I can understand someone being upset about KS because their are a few examples of bad behavior. They most certainly could do more to combat that. But to make a blanket statement that ALL KS are rubbish is silly.
Then there is your stand. Apparently you feel that the donation is enough, no reward is necessary. Am I wrong?
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
I think the big question is: Should all failed KS projects that promise reward for donation be considered scams?
If not, how does one distinguish between those that are, and those that are not?
Honesty of intent doesn't seem to be easy to identify.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I think the big question is: Should all failed KS projects that promise reward for donation be considered scams?
If not, how does one distinguish between those that are, and those that are not?
Honesty of intent doesn't seem to be easy to identify.
That is the issue isn't it?
My standard would be that a game project should at least have a working, playable demo. But even that can be apparently done with a few Unity assets with little work as in the case of GM. So then how much work should be done to rise to the "well, they gave it a good shot but couldn't get it done" barrier?
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
IMO Kickstarter should be shut down,they have no terms of service no rules or guidelines,just a website sticking their hands into that free money basket.
I have no idea how the law would allow a business to take money under any account and have no binding law to protect that money.ANYONE and everyone knows the term donations is BS.If you are giving something in return for that money i consider it a sale and purchase.Even if there was nothing in return we all know the intent of that money is NOT a simple donation but in fact an investment to build a game.
The money should be held in trust with intent to deliver said promise.
If you go to kickstarter Twitter page it is an absolute joke at all the various ideas people are asking money for,to the point is is extremely laughable that anyone would hand over money.A LOT of the scams are bound around sensitive topics ,they know it will reach out to people to get their money.
Nonsense, people need to be responsible for themselves. what you are saying is that "others know better" and you are taking choice out of the hands of those who want give money. We already know that there are successful kickstarters and good projects.
therefore no shutting down is required. If people are, to use the words "naive", "stupid", "gullible" "insertappropriateadjectiveshere", then nothing can be done for them other than they learn a valuable. lesson.
Because otherwise all we are going to have is government legislating how people use their money. And it's not going to stop at "kickstarter". Someone always thinks they know best and always thinks they can legislate for others.
People who are prone to being irresponsible with their money are going to continue to do so regardless of whether kickstarter exists or not. Or do you think that resources and effort need to be spent to protect them from themselves? The issue is not with kickstarter, the issue is with the people giving money and in some cases giving wayyyyy too much money.
Either they are going to have to learn for themselves or they are going to spend their lives constantly reaping this poor harvest.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
a person who seeks to promote the welfare of others, especially by the generous donation of money to good causes. ------------------------
As I see it, KS is a great vehicle for philanthropists. If a person is one, or wants to act as one, they can. But the motivation for philanthropy isn't reward, it is for the satisfaction of having done a good deed.
Also as I see it, if a person isn't intent on being a philanthropist, they shouldn't be funding KS projects.
As for me. I don't. I'm too broke to be generous.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
a person who seeks to promote the welfare of others, especially by the generous donation of money to good causes. ------------------------
As I see it, KS is a great vehicle for philanthropists. If a person is one, or wants to act as one, they can. But the motivation for philanthropy isn't reward, it is for the satisfaction of having done a good deed.
Also as I see it, if a person isn't intent on being a philanthropist, they shouldn't be funding KS projects.
As for me. I don't. I'm too broke to be generous.
Then by your own admission and the definition of Philanthropist KS is not for you. Again, your donation does come with a reward. How are you not seeing that?
You and @craftseeker are either being obstinate or are not understanding how KS works.
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
So as an informed donator now I do kinda treat all the KSers I now back as a pre-order.
No, no, no and no!
Do not mistake a Pre-Order of a game with giving away donations on Kickstarter in the hopes of the project materialising itself.
They are very, very different things!
Again I see where you are coming from. But the fact is that KS exists to donate money to various projects in the expectation of getting something in return. So it is "pre-ordering" in a sense.
But in relation to what you and others are saying you cannot 100% money back guarantee pinkey-swear I'll get it expect anything.
They are very, very different things!
Nope you are getting it very wrong. The expectation is a false one. You are donating to a project. That is what kickstarter is about. IF and only IF the project succeeds then you will receive a 'reward' for being a donor. If it fails, and most will, you get nothing.
Why the fuck would I donate money to a game and expect nothing in return? I'm not a charity.
I understand that YOU think KS is a scam. But you are wrong. Their are very few failures compared to the successes.
Of course I have expectations that a KS will succeed. So do the people starting the KS. Not everyone on KS is a scam artist. Hell, I don't think Jason Appleton was a scam artist, at least as far as GM was concerned. Just in over his head. Was I and 666 (heh, that is the actual number that KS) other people wrong about GM? Hell yeah we were. Have we all learned from it? I have as I stated in a previous post. As have most of them I'm sure. Just because one project was mismanaged does not mean KS is a Ponzi Scheme. Just because a couple of actual scammers ran away with donations does not mean that ALL KS are frauds. Good god I thought I was a pessimist.
No I do not think Kickstarter is a scam. It is a facilitator for people to DONATE to other people's projects.
If you are "not a charity" then Kickstarter and similar are not for you.
I'm honestly not understanding where you are coming from.
You think the idea behind KS is to donate money to people that are trying to fund things that they are going to later charge people for and to NOT expect them to repay your donation by giving you what they are offering? You do realize that the repayment of the donation by getting the product that they are asking donations for in the first place is the incentive to donate right? Plus any added bonuses they put in for further incentive.
As to my charity remark, I see charity as a donation to a cause (Red Cross, Children's Miracle Network etc) that I will only get the satisfaction of helping people I don't know nor will probably never come into contact with. You know, that feelgood kind of thing.
I can understand someone being upset about KS because their are a few examples of bad behavior. They most certainly could do more to combat that. But to make a blanket statement that ALL KS are rubbish is silly.
Then there is your stand. Apparently you feel that the donation is enough, no reward is necessary. Am I wrong?
Yes you are wrong.
Yes I do think the idea behind KS is to donate money to people that are trying to fund things, whether or not they intend to later charge people.
Yes it is a feel good kind of thing, not as worthy as Red Cross, or many others, but a feel good thing none the less.
I have not said that all KS are rubbish, there are good projects in there. Even many of those that ultimately fail are still good projects.
You look at the project, the people behind it and decide whether or not to give them some money to help them on their way. That is it.
If the project succeeds great. If it fails that is sad. But either way they owe you nothing. BUT if they succeed they should make good on any reward(s) they promised donors.
IF they intended to take the money and run, then yes that is a scam. BUT if they can show they made a genuine attempt it is just a failed project.
Working as intended. I'd say 50% of kickstarters will fail, its part of the model. There is no way anyone is expecting them all to succeed, you just have to hope the one you invested in is one of the ones that does.
"hope" .. so you agree that KS is selling wishful thinking?
Clearly you have no understanding of business, KS success rate is pretty high considering 90% of the time start up businesses FAIL.
Any time there's a way to get a lot of money, the con artists will move in. Kickstarter is just one of the new things to be targeted. Now does that mean that all Kickstarter failures are scams? Of course not, there are plenty of projects whos creators just didn't calculate their needs and resources correctly, or got in over their heads, had unexpected issues screw it up, or just plain got in over their heads. I'm in no way defending the project this threads OP was referring to, especially since his lack of communication makes it very suspicious that he is one of the less reputable ones. There's no hard fast rule on backing kickstarters, but a little advice that seems to have helped me, is that before you lay down money, especially if it's a lot, check into it. Find out who it is, and what they've done before. Having successfully brought previous kickstarters to fruition and having happy backers is a good sign. As an example of that, Harebrained Schemes did a kickstarter for a game I wanted. I looked into them, and they've done a couple of successful kickstarters, and had completed some. One of them wasn't yet finished, but they were still working on it and talking to their backers, keeping them in the loop and letting them know about the delay. Besides, they'd done the previous iteration of the game I was wanting, so they knew what they were getting themselves into. (If you're curious, it was Shadowrun Hong Kong I backed.) So that was a good choice. I've also backed some things I couldn't find any previous experience with, but no bad data was dug up either. Since it was something I really wanted, I backed it, but at a modest level. I don't have a lot of available funding, to put it mildly, but once in a while I can risk a twenty. The people that spend a hundred or more on questionable kickstarters are the ones I don't understand. It's not right when they get gypped, but I hope they at least learn from the experience and research and evaluate the risks the next time they see an interesting project. If you do get screwed, ranting and raving on the net won't help. Check into what seems to have gone wrong, and try to find out what remedies might be available. If you think they failed to uphold the rules of kickstarter, report them to kickstarter. Speaking of that, as this is still relatively new, even kickstarter is learning how to do things, and has been changing there rules to help avoid the fraud. It's not bullet proof, nothing is, but they are trying to make it safer for backers.
So as an informed donator now I do kinda treat all the KSers I now back as a pre-order.
No, no, no and no!
Do not mistake a Pre-Order of a game with giving away donations on Kickstarter in the hopes of the project materialising itself.
They are very, very different things!
Again I see where you are coming from. But the fact is that KS exists to donate money to various projects in the expectation of getting something in return. So it is "pre-ordering" in a sense.
But in relation to what you and others are saying you cannot 100% money back guarantee pinkey-swear I'll get it expect anything.
They are very, very different things!
Nope you are getting it very wrong. The expectation is a false one. You are donating to a project. That is what kickstarter is about. IF and only IF the project succeeds then you will receive a 'reward' for being a donor. If it fails, and most will, you get nothing.
Why the fuck would I donate money to a game and expect nothing in return? I'm not a charity.
I understand that YOU think KS is a scam. But you are wrong. Their are very few failures compared to the successes.
Of course I have expectations that a KS will succeed. So do the people starting the KS. Not everyone on KS is a scam artist. Hell, I don't think Jason Appleton was a scam artist, at least as far as GM was concerned. Just in over his head. Was I and 666 (heh, that is the actual number that KS) other people wrong about GM? Hell yeah we were. Have we all learned from it? I have as I stated in a previous post. As have most of them I'm sure. Just because one project was mismanaged does not mean KS is a Ponzi Scheme. Just because a couple of actual scammers ran away with donations does not mean that ALL KS are frauds. Good god I thought I was a pessimist.
No I do not think Kickstarter is a scam. It is a facilitator for people to DONATE to other people's projects.
If you are "not a charity" then Kickstarter and similar are not for you.
I'm honestly not understanding where you are coming from.
You think the idea behind KS is to donate money to people that are trying to fund things that they are going to later charge people for and to NOT expect them to repay your donation by giving you what they are offering? You do realize that the repayment of the donation by getting the product that they are asking donations for in the first place is the incentive to donate right? Plus any added bonuses they put in for further incentive.
As to my charity remark, I see charity as a donation to a cause (Red Cross, Children's Miracle Network etc) that I will only get the satisfaction of helping people I don't know nor will probably never come into contact with. You know, that feelgood kind of thing.
I can understand someone being upset about KS because their are a few examples of bad behavior. They most certainly could do more to combat that. But to make a blanket statement that ALL KS are rubbish is silly.
Then there is your stand. Apparently you feel that the donation is enough, no reward is necessary. Am I wrong?
You are wrong, also about the charity donate thing too, again with them, it is a gamble, how reliably your donation will reach the desired charity, is a gamble, unless you do your research, if you haphazardly make a donation via a 'chugger' then chances are only a small proportion of that money, if any, will reach the desired charity, and in a sense is a good comparison with Kickstarter, you are donating money in the hope that it achieves a desired result, there is a significant chance it won't, but again, you are not buying something you are donating, trouble is, like with the case of the charity 'chuggers' you may well just be donating to the guys pockets.
There's a payoff for altruism, and a payoff for schadenfreude.
You boys just approach the universe from opposite sides.
If Karma was a real thing, you would probably be correct. But that kind of thing only works in MMO's. if 'RL' activities somehow incurred some kind of Divine Reward or Punishment, then the world would be a very different place, and would probably have Elves and Dwarves in it too.
Its not philantropy or charity, you are supporting something because you hope it will succeed and give you some pleasure during the process or at the end. The exchange works on the premise of good will from both sides. KS is just a vehicle to help people find each other and support each other on a wider scale but the concept has always existed. Look at patronage in the past, now it has moved into the mainstream like everything else but its not new. You cannot expect that a work of art will happen from your support but ocassionaly it might.
Producing something great is hard work and ultimately not evryone who believes they can do it can really make it happen but probably everything that you appreciate today somebody somewhere took a chance on. Its progress and how it works.
Once your existential needs are met you start to look for other things.
In fact it could be both charity or philantropy if you say that your reward for giving is to feel good and in all of these actions that is the ultimate purpose.
Should it be regulated? Of course not, that would be counterproductive.
When I donated about $180 to CU's kickstarter, I did so believing the odds of creating a successful MMORPG really wasn't very feasible on so little money. Well, they've raised more than the initial $2M, and are limiting the scope significantly, so I do think they might have a chance to be successful.
But if Mark closed up the doors tomorrow saying...sorry, we were just kidding I won't be pissed, because I knew going in odds of success were against it from the start.
Anyone treating kickstarters any other way, thinking they are 'investors' or even customers just aren't thinking straight about the situation.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
ANYONE and everyone knows the term donations is BS.If you are giving something in return for that money i consider it a sale and purchase.
Aha! But here comes the shocker, you BUY a PROMISE of SOMETHING being delivered! Promise being the keyword here and a word that according to the contract between you, Kickstarter and the project owner, is no biding and contains no obligation to fulfil... just that the project owner has to do reasonable efforts to fulfil it...
It is akin of me making a kickstarter to fund the cure for cancer, and in return when and if I find it, you are given a small case with 6 syringes for you and your family...
But lets look at the Kickstarter company point of view here. Whether you get fcked or not, they still win! It is a win-win situation for Kickstarter because they get their share and keep their hands clean, claiming they are just a venue for you to meet enterpreneurs...
Maybe I shall open a house with women and use it as a venue for them to meet paying men for their services... Cant blame me, im just providing them space!
Lets be honest, Kickstarter does not care if you lose your money, in fact it was reported that you can provide fake names and addresses in order to be a project owner and that is why the rate of scammers there are growing exponentially!
So as an informed donator now I do kinda treat all the KSers I now back as a pre-order.
No, no, no and no!
Do not mistake a Pre-Order of a game with giving away donations on Kickstarter in the hopes of the project materialising itself.
They are very, very different things!
Again I see where you are coming from. But the fact is that KS exists to donate money to various projects in the expectation of getting something in return. So it is "pre-ordering" in a sense.
But in relation to what you and others are saying you cannot 100% money back guarantee pinkey-swear I'll get it expect anything.
They are very, very different things!
Nope you are getting it very wrong. The expectation is a false one. You are donating to a project. That is what kickstarter is about. IF and only IF the project succeeds then you will receive a 'reward' for being a donor. If it fails, and most will, you get nothing.
Why the fuck would I donate money to a game and expect nothing in return? I'm not a charity.
I understand that YOU think KS is a scam. But you are wrong. Their are very few failures compared to the successes.
Of course I have expectations that a KS will succeed. So do the people starting the KS. Not everyone on KS is a scam artist. Hell, I don't think Jason Appleton was a scam artist, at least as far as GM was concerned. Just in over his head. Was I and 666 (heh, that is the actual number that KS) other people wrong about GM? Hell yeah we were. Have we all learned from it? I have as I stated in a previous post. As have most of them I'm sure. Just because one project was mismanaged does not mean KS is a Ponzi Scheme. Just because a couple of actual scammers ran away with donations does not mean that ALL KS are frauds. Good god I thought I was a pessimist.
No I do not think Kickstarter is a scam. It is a facilitator for people to DONATE to other people's projects.
If you are "not a charity" then Kickstarter and similar are not for you.
I'm honestly not understanding where you are coming from.
You think the idea behind KS is to donate money to people that are trying to fund things that they are going to later charge people for and to NOT expect them to repay your donation by giving you what they are offering? You do realize that the repayment of the donation by getting the product that they are asking donations for in the first place is the incentive to donate right? Plus any added bonuses they put in for further incentive.
As to my charity remark, I see charity as a donation to a cause (Red Cross, Children's Miracle Network etc) that I will only get the satisfaction of helping people I don't know nor will probably never come into contact with. You know, that feelgood kind of thing.
I can understand someone being upset about KS because their are a few examples of bad behavior. They most certainly could do more to combat that. But to make a blanket statement that ALL KS are rubbish is silly.
Then there is your stand. Apparently you feel that the donation is enough, no reward is necessary. Am I wrong?
Yes you are wrong.
Yes I do think the idea behind KS is to donate money to people that are trying to fund things, whether or not they intend to later charge people.
Yes it is a feel good kind of thing, not as worthy as Red Cross, or many others, but a feel good thing none the less.
I have not said that all KS are rubbish, there are good projects in there. Even many of those that ultimately fail are still good projects.
You look at the project, the people behind it and decide whether or not to give them some money to help them on their way. That is it.
If the project succeeds great. If it fails that is sad. But either way they owe you nothing. BUT if they succeed they should make good on any reward(s) they promised donors.
IF they intended to take the money and run, then yes that is a scam. BUT if they can show they made a genuine attempt it is just a failed project.
That is an interesting way of looking at it. I do agree with some of your points. I just don't get the outright hatred for KS that I see on these forums.
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
So as an informed donator now I do kinda treat all the KSers I now back as a pre-order.
No, no, no and no!
Do not mistake a Pre-Order of a game with giving away donations on Kickstarter in the hopes of the project materialising itself.
They are very, very different things!
Again I see where you are coming from. But the fact is that KS exists to donate money to various projects in the expectation of getting something in return. So it is "pre-ordering" in a sense.
But in relation to what you and others are saying you cannot 100% money back guarantee pinkey-swear I'll get it expect anything.
They are very, very different things!
Nope you are getting it very wrong. The expectation is a false one. You are donating to a project. That is what kickstarter is about. IF and only IF the project succeeds then you will receive a 'reward' for being a donor. If it fails, and most will, you get nothing.
Why the fuck would I donate money to a game and expect nothing in return? I'm not a charity.
I understand that YOU think KS is a scam. But you are wrong. Their are very few failures compared to the successes.
Of course I have expectations that a KS will succeed. So do the people starting the KS. Not everyone on KS is a scam artist. Hell, I don't think Jason Appleton was a scam artist, at least as far as GM was concerned. Just in over his head. Was I and 666 (heh, that is the actual number that KS) other people wrong about GM? Hell yeah we were. Have we all learned from it? I have as I stated in a previous post. As have most of them I'm sure. Just because one project was mismanaged does not mean KS is a Ponzi Scheme. Just because a couple of actual scammers ran away with donations does not mean that ALL KS are frauds. Good god I thought I was a pessimist.
No I do not think Kickstarter is a scam. It is a facilitator for people to DONATE to other people's projects.
If you are "not a charity" then Kickstarter and similar are not for you.
I'm honestly not understanding where you are coming from.
You think the idea behind KS is to donate money to people that are trying to fund things that they are going to later charge people for and to NOT expect them to repay your donation by giving you what they are offering? You do realize that the repayment of the donation by getting the product that they are asking donations for in the first place is the incentive to donate right? Plus any added bonuses they put in for further incentive.
As to my charity remark, I see charity as a donation to a cause (Red Cross, Children's Miracle Network etc) that I will only get the satisfaction of helping people I don't know nor will probably never come into contact with. You know, that feelgood kind of thing.
I can understand someone being upset about KS because their are a few examples of bad behavior. They most certainly could do more to combat that. But to make a blanket statement that ALL KS are rubbish is silly.
Then there is your stand. Apparently you feel that the donation is enough, no reward is necessary. Am I wrong?
You are wrong, also about the charity donate thing too, again with them, it is a gamble, how reliably your donation will reach the desired charity, is a gamble, unless you do your research, if you haphazardly make a donation via a 'chugger' then chances are only a small proportion of that money, if any, will reach the desired charity, and in a sense is a good comparison with Kickstarter, you are donating money in the hope that it achieves a desired result, there is a significant chance it won't, but again, you are not buying something you are donating, trouble is, like with the case of the charity 'chuggers' you may well just be donating to the guys pockets.
When I see a @Phry post I usually 100% agree with you!
I never said that KS is not a gamble. That specific post was in reference to someone stating that I should not expect anything in return even though they are offering a return on my donation for an incentive to donate. Of course many if not most charities skim off the top, bottom and in between of donations because charities are ran by humans and humans are greedy bastards as we have already established!
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
Comments
You are donating to a project. That is what kickstarter is about.
IF and only IF the project succeeds then you will receive a 'reward' for being a donor.
If it fails, and most will, you get nothing.
I understand that YOU think KS is a scam. But you are wrong. Their are very few failures compared to the successes.
Of course I have expectations that a KS will succeed. So do the people starting the KS. Not everyone on KS is a scam artist. Hell, I don't think Jason Appleton was a scam artist, at least as far as GM was concerned. Just in over his head. Was I and 666 (heh, that is the actual number that KS) other people wrong about GM? Hell yeah we were. Have we all learned from it? I have as I stated in a previous post. As have most of them I'm sure. Just because one project was mismanaged does not mean KS is a Ponzi Scheme. Just because a couple of actual scammers ran away with donations does not mean that ALL KS are frauds. Good god I thought I was a pessimist.
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
If you are "not a charity" then Kickstarter and similar are not for you.
So yes, it is money and free advertising, but when you can get in for a low price (compared to launch) and, if you feel like it, snag a few extra goodies along the way, then why not?
I will admit that I do have an issue when it comes to reward tiers above a few hundred dollars though, as they do seem like a bit of scam designed to get money out of die hard fans, but hey, if people have that sort of money to throw away then I'll happily reap the benefits of whatever stretch goal it went towards.
I have no idea how the law would allow a business to take money under any account and have no binding law to protect that money.ANYONE and everyone knows the term donations is BS.If you are giving something in return for that money i consider it a sale and purchase.Even if there was nothing in return we all know the intent of that money is NOT a simple donation but in fact an investment to build a game.
The money should be held in trust with intent to deliver said promise.
If you go to kickstarter Twitter page it is an absolute joke at all the various ideas people are asking money for,to the point is is extremely laughable that anyone would hand over money.A LOT of the scams are bound around sensitive topics ,they know it will reach out to people to get their money.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You think the idea behind KS is to donate money to people that are trying to fund things that they are going to later charge people for and to NOT expect them to repay your donation by giving you what they are offering? You do realize that the repayment of the donation by getting the product that they are asking donations for in the first place is the incentive to donate right? Plus any added bonuses they put in for further incentive.
As to my charity remark, I see charity as a donation to a cause (Red Cross, Children's Miracle Network etc) that I will only get the satisfaction of helping people I don't know nor will probably never come into contact with. You know, that feelgood kind of thing.
I can understand someone being upset about KS because their are a few examples of bad behavior. They most certainly could do more to combat that. But to make a blanket statement that ALL KS are rubbish is silly.
Then there is your stand. Apparently you feel that the donation is enough, no reward is necessary. Am I wrong?
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
If not, how does one distinguish between those that are, and those that are not?
Honesty of intent doesn't seem to be easy to identify.
My standard would be that a game project should at least have a working, playable demo. But even that can be apparently done with a few Unity assets with little work as in the case of GM. So then how much work should be done to rise to the "well, they gave it a good shot but couldn't get it done" barrier?
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
therefore no shutting down is required. If people are, to use the words "naive", "stupid", "gullible" "insertappropriateadjectiveshere", then nothing can be done for them other than they learn a valuable. lesson.
Because otherwise all we are going to have is government legislating how people use their money. And it's not going to stop at "kickstarter". Someone always thinks they know best and always thinks they can legislate for others.
People who are prone to being irresponsible with their money are going to continue to do so regardless of whether kickstarter exists or not. Or do you think that resources and effort need to be spent to protect them from themselves? The issue is not with kickstarter, the issue is with the people giving money and in some cases giving wayyyyy too much money.
Either they are going to have to learn for themselves or they are going to spend their lives constantly reaping this poor harvest.
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Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
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Also as I see it, if a person isn't intent on being a philanthropist, they shouldn't be funding KS projects.
As for me. I don't. I'm too broke to be generous.
You and @craftseeker are either being obstinate or are not understanding how KS works.
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
Yes I do think the idea behind KS is to donate money to people that are trying to fund things, whether or not they intend to later charge people.
Yes it is a feel good kind of thing, not as worthy as Red Cross, or many others, but a feel good thing none the less.
I have not said that all KS are rubbish, there are good projects in there. Even many of those that ultimately fail are still good projects.
You look at the project, the people behind it and decide whether or not to give them some money to help them on their way. That is it.
If the project succeeds great. If it fails that is sad. But either way they owe you nothing.
BUT if they succeed they should make good on any reward(s) they promised donors.
IF they intended to take the money and run, then yes that is a scam. BUT if they can show they made a genuine attempt it is just a failed project.
Now does that mean that all Kickstarter failures are scams? Of course not, there are plenty of projects whos creators just didn't calculate their needs and resources correctly, or got in over their heads, had unexpected issues screw it up, or just plain got in over their heads.
I'm in no way defending the project this threads OP was referring to, especially since his lack of communication makes it very suspicious that he is one of the less reputable ones.
There's no hard fast rule on backing kickstarters, but a little advice that seems to have helped me, is that before you lay down money, especially if it's a lot, check into it. Find out who it is, and what they've done before. Having successfully brought previous kickstarters to fruition and having happy backers is a good sign. As an example of that, Harebrained Schemes did a kickstarter for a game I wanted. I looked into them, and they've done a couple of successful kickstarters, and had completed some. One of them wasn't yet finished, but they were still working on it and talking to their backers, keeping them in the loop and letting them know about the delay. Besides, they'd done the previous iteration of the game I was wanting, so they knew what they were getting themselves into. (If you're curious, it was Shadowrun Hong Kong I backed.) So that was a good choice.
I've also backed some things I couldn't find any previous experience with, but no bad data was dug up either. Since it was something I really wanted, I backed it, but at a modest level. I don't have a lot of available funding, to put it mildly, but once in a while I can risk a twenty. The people that spend a hundred or more on questionable kickstarters are the ones I don't understand. It's not right when they get gypped, but I hope they at least learn from the experience and research and evaluate the risks the next time they see an interesting project. If you do get screwed, ranting and raving on the net won't help. Check into what seems to have gone wrong, and try to find out what remedies might be available. If you think they failed to uphold the rules of kickstarter, report them to kickstarter.
Speaking of that, as this is still relatively new, even kickstarter is learning how to do things, and has been changing there rules to help avoid the fraud. It's not bullet proof, nothing is, but they are trying to make it safer for backers.
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
You boys just approach the universe from opposite sides.
Producing something great is hard work and ultimately not evryone who believes they can do it can really make it happen but probably everything that you appreciate today somebody somewhere took a chance on. Its progress and how it works.
Once your existential needs are met you start to look for other things.
In fact it could be both charity or philantropy if you say that your reward for giving is to feel good and in all of these actions that is the ultimate purpose.
Should it be regulated? Of course not, that would be counterproductive.
But if Mark closed up the doors tomorrow saying...sorry, we were just kidding I won't be pissed, because I knew going in odds of success were against it from the start.
Anyone treating kickstarters any other way, thinking they are 'investors' or even customers just aren't thinking straight about the situation.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Promise being the keyword here and a word that according to the contract between you, Kickstarter and the project owner, is no biding and contains no obligation to fulfil... just that the project owner has to do reasonable efforts to fulfil it...
It is akin of me making a kickstarter to fund the cure for cancer, and in return when and if I find it, you are given a small case with 6 syringes for you and your family...
But lets look at the Kickstarter company point of view here.
Whether you get fcked or not, they still win! It is a win-win situation for Kickstarter because they get their share and keep their hands clean, claiming they are just a venue for you to meet enterpreneurs...
Maybe I shall open a house with women and use it as a venue for them to meet paying men for their services...
Cant blame me, im just providing them space!
Lets be honest, Kickstarter does not care if you lose your money, in fact it was reported that you can provide fake names and addresses in order to be a project owner and that is why the rate of scammers there are growing exponentially!
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Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
I never said that KS is not a gamble. That specific post was in reference to someone stating that I should not expect anything in return even though they are offering a return on my donation for an incentive to donate. Of course many if not most charities skim off the top, bottom and in between of donations because charities are ran by humans and humans are greedy bastards as we have already established!
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.