Why MMOs changed to what it is today; it is OUR doing.

Gdemami

JohnP0100 said:

Not sure why the debate is becoming personal when it is more about facts and numbers.
Gamers got old.
If you want to dispute that sources please.

Well, there are some major issues with your thesis and data you presented:

1) There is no time curve for gamer's age since you only posted a snippet capturing market in 2013, thus your "gamers got old" is very much unfounded.

2) The data include various platforms and genres but the topic is MMOs, that are merely exclusive to PC. Specific demographics there might be very different from overall average picture.


Your title is correct but effort to nail down the reason behind the changes to single contributor is not.

Antiquated

Whose fault is it?

No u!

All right, it was all me. I did it.

Loktofeit

cameltosis said:

I always feel this is one of those chicken-and-egg conundrums that is impossible to answer with enough evidence to back you up. 

For example, when I used to play lotro, sometimes around 2nd expansion the devs came out and said that approximately 10% of the community pvped on a regular basis (at least once a week) and that less than 5% of the community raided on a regular basis.

So, at face value, this data indicates that the community didn't care about pvp and raiding and so the devs focused future development on solo content. 

However, the data doesn't say WHY the community didn't pvp or raid, and this is the conundrum. Did 90% of the community avoid pvp because they dont like pvp in general? Or did they not like lotro's pvp specifically?

If you believe, like me, that the answer is the latter and that the community avoids features because of the specific implementation, rather than the idea behind it, then the next step is to try to find a solution. Going back to the lotro pvp question, one solution might have been to develop instanced pvp, such as battlegrounds or arenas. However, that development would have cost money and the result would be uncertain, so it becomes too much of a risk for the developers to make. 

When this data is relatively consistent across many MMOs for over a decade, it's time to question whether there is a problem of all these devs not doing it right or if the numbers are accurately showing the level of interest in these activities. 

JohnP0100

Vardahoth said:

This is like blaming walmart shoppers for supporting sweatshops. I don't support the games today by not playing them. So I don't consider it my fault. I 100% blame the managers and ceo's of the gaming companies for releasing these games. I also blame the developers for making these games.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions. It is a lack of this, that spawns arguments like this thread.

I thought I made this clear in that this thread is about 'us' as 'gamers'.

The 'blame' game you are playing is hilarious.
If the demand wasn't there, it doesn't matter what the managers / ceo / developers do.
Like I said previously, I don't care what your title is, $$$ above all. That's just how real life works.

JohnP0100

Gdemami said:

JohnP0100 said:

Not sure why the debate is becoming personal when it is more about facts and numbers.
Gamers got old.
If you want to dispute that sources please.

Well, there are some major issues with your thesis and data you presented:

1) There is no time curve for gamer's age since you only posted a snippet capturing market in 2013, thus your "gamers got old" is very much unfounded.

2) The data include various platforms and genres but the topic is MMOs, that are merely exclusive to PC. Specific demographics there might be very different from overall average picture.


Your title is correct but effort to nail down the reason behind the changes to single contributor is not.

1. If you want 2012 the age was 30; http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/726494/the-average-age-of-a-gamer-is-30-says-esa/


2. MMOs were age 26 about 9(ish) years ago;
Http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/130552/unmasking_the_avatar_the_.php?print=1 
Roughly the same as the average age of a 'gamer'.

This isn't exactly hard to find btw. Go to Google.com -> type in 'average age of gamer' and look at the dates.

Gdemami

JohnP0100 said:
This isn't exactly hard to find btw. Go to Google.com -> type in 'average age of gamer' and look at the dates.

Yes, it is not hard to find some data, however throwing more pointless data around won't fix it.

It is in fact, the problem itself as I pointed out above - you take some random data and make, incorrect, conclusions.

Albatroes

At least there's a half truth. Its not really the general gaming community's fault why the industry is the way it is, but more so impatient people and industry competition. Honestly, there's no room for games to be THAT challenging and competitive. You can always argue that its false, but obviously its true when you look at the current market. Innovation to companies = easy mode. They try to capitalize on people being able to get in and get out while still being competitive with people who play all day. Since we're going on facts and such, its already been stated that a small fraction, possibly 5-6% of WoW's gaming community was/is hardcore raiders. So you still have that bigger % made up of casuals. WoW's structure is tailored towards casuals now. You can buy a 90 > sell a token > heirloom up > hit 100 all in 1-2 days, for 80$, and to some that's nothing. Legion honestly wont be different since you'll be able to buy 100s, plus DH will start at 98. Its all about getting people in and out while making them feel competitive. Point is, without consumers there's no product. Thus the market will continue to follow the trend that makes the most money and currently that's being easy mode.

JohnP0100

Albatroes said:

/snip
 Thus the market will continue to follow the trend that makes the most money and currently that's being easy mode.

There are good complexity and bad complexity.
Most 'old school' MMOs were the bad complexity / not hard just time consuming.
As gamers grew older, gamers rejected those because real-life occurred to many of them; careers, kids, marriage etc.
Now most MMOs are streamlined with no need to play hours for content.

I used to play EVE-O for christ sake so I know all about 'bad complexity'.
Look at the EVE POS mechanic or Corps Role which is so bad that it is a meme by people who play EVE! A spreadsheet in space game!

I am now playing RIFT/SWTOR and not playing EVE cause like the majority, I too got Real Life'ed.

JohnP0100

Gdemami said:

JohnP0100 said:
This isn't exactly hard to find btw. Go to Google.com -> type in 'average age of gamer' and look at the dates.

Yes, it is not hard to find some data, however throwing more pointless data around won't fix it.

It is in fact, the problem itself as I pointed out above - you take some random data and make, incorrect, conclusions.

And the goal post moves again!
It is amazing to see someone say one thing and then something completely different all within 5 mins (in a forum where everyone can see that no less!) but whatever.

Gdemami

JohnP0100 said:

And the goal post moves again!
It is amazing to see someone say one thing and then something completely different all within 5 mins (in a forum where everyone can see that no less!) but whatever.

My point is still the same - you are comparing apples and oranges, claiming they are both vegetable....

nariusseldon

Gdemami said:

Yes, it is not hard to find some data, however throwing more pointless data around won't fix it.

It is in fact, the problem itself as I pointed out above - you take some random data and make, incorrect, conclusions.

Data is only pointless when it does not support your position ... we get it.

Gdemami

nariusseldon said:

Data is only pointless when it does not support your position ... we get it.

I explicitely stated why the data cannot support the conclusion and my points were neither addressed not to say rectifiedl. Instead,  he just pulled out even more equally flawed data(article from gamasutra still lacks a time curve and the other link is just same global data - apples and oranges).

Here is some more what is wrong with his conclusions:

Comparing average age of first birth and gamers age is invalid since it does not imply how many MMO players actually have kids nor their age - the first birth age only counts for women,  MMO players with children could be notably different age than national average, etc...etc. 

Either way, correlation does not imply causation, thus why I said such effort is rather moot.


btw. what my position on this is supposed to be...?

Beatnik59

I'm not going to say one way or the other that the whole "demographics have changed" argument solid.  It may be.

But what I can say is that our tolerance for other ways of having fun has become smaller as a group.  I can say that our patience for games and systems have become smaller as a group.

I remember when people at least tried PvP, tried roleplay, tried raiding and tried crafting.  And if they didn't like these things?  They at least didn't begrudge those who found these things fun and did the things they enjoyed instead.

This was before what I call "the great playstyle wars," when people started to argue on the forums and on the dev blogs that their way was the only right way to design a game, and entire playstyles were irrelevant and shouldn't matter.  And so, what we got were games which tried not to displease anybody, with the net result being games that, while not displeasurable for all, were not truly satisfying to many.

nariusseldon

Beatnik59 said:

But what I can say is that our tolerance for other ways of having fun has become smaller as a group.  I can say that our patience for games and systems have become smaller as a group.

I do not agree. I don't think people care about what you like in your games. How would that affect them when they simply can opt out playing such games?

But at the same time, there is no reason they have to tolerate anything in games that they play. If I think a game is too inconvenient, i would simply just quit (and/or voice my opinion .. after all, we are just human and like to tell people what we like or do not like).

Now I do agree that we have less patience about games. I don't see how that is a problem though. They are entertainment and i don't see why i should have patience ... if a game is not fun right away, there are always something else there is.

But again, you don't have to like what i like. I play my games, you play yours. Let the market decide what to produce. That is the essence of how the free market works. 

Octagon7711

It is our fault.  The most successful MMO's tend to be the easiest.  That's because it's what most people want. 

The Devs simply try to go with what sells the most.  Just about everything that's been suggested has been tried at one time or another already and if it's rare or not around anymore it's because the player base as a whole wasn't interested. 

The masses want Ftp, cash shops, instant level scrolls, vanity items, PvE, PvP, etc.  so nearly every MMO has it.  It's a service industry.  To see what they don't want just take a look at the games that aren't around anymore or that are struggling to survive.

JohnP0100

Octagon7711 said:

It is our fault.  The most successful MMO's tend to be the easiest.  That's because it's what most people want. 

The Devs simply try to go with what sells the most.  Just about everything that's been suggested has been tried at one time or another already and if it's rare or not around anymore it's because the player base as a whole wasn't interested. 

The masses want Ftp, cash shops, instant level scrolls, vanity items, PvE, PvP, etc.  so nearly every MMO has it.  It's a service industry.  To see what they don't want just take a look at the games that aren't around anymore or that are struggling to survive.

Masses want video games to be entertainment and not spreadsheets online.
I used to play eve and now with limited time due to RL, yeah i too want to play games to relax.

nariusseldon

Octagon7711 said:

It is our fault.  The most successful MMO's tend to be the easiest.  That's because it's what most people want. 

"fault" of what? Isn't dev giving what their audience want a good thing?

whisperwynd

I don't see it as a blame game. People change, what I liked to do 10 years ago in gaming has evolved/changed since.

It's normal. Trends come and go and devs make games they want in an attempt to entertain us. Those that 'try too hard' to go for our wallets tend to be transparent and attract those willing to pay and play that game. Even if others find it abhorrent or shameful.
 
Claiming greed, bad ethics, etc. is irrelevant as those games that garner enough players to keep it going stay 'alive' long enough to keep them.

As Narius has said, if we don't like it, we can simply move on to something else. Neither we nor the devs owe anything to one another.

JohnP0100

Vardahoth said:

The title says "is it OUR doing". My answer to that is no, at least not for me. I haven't bought into any of this crap (except for Tera, the 1st and last mistake).

I'm a gamer who stays on old games because they offer what no other game over the last decade has been able to offer. I have made hundreds of posts explaining what is wrong with games and how to change/fix them. Everyone has this "shut up and play" mentality, and now i deal with threads like this...

So, I guess you could consider me as not being a part of the "is it OUR doing", but still as a gamer. I'm just a gamer who does not support any of the games as they have turned into what it is today. I stick to playing games released well before most peoples time here. Currently playing Legend of Dragoon... After that I'll probably hop on Chrono Trigger.

As for your "as long as their is a demand, people will give into it". Guess what!!! Doesn't mean I am a part of that demand. If you want games reduced in quality then I can't stop you. I've only voiced against it because that is all I can do. But I refuse to take responsibility for it (especially when I have not wasted any of my time or money into any of it).

Oh and also for the demand.... I'm sure there is a large crowd of gamers out there who want a good game. It's just game makers are too stupid to realize this with the CEO's down their throats.

There are multiple things to say about with this post.
1. This is a generalization thread. Like I said in the OP, you might be the minority that made the decision to be  age 50 (or w/e age you are) single with no kids. The majority didn't make that decision though and as a group, we made it this way.
I'm not saying this is right or wrong but trying to explain why it is.

2. What you consider 'good' might not be 'good' for others. I used to play EVE and spend 4 hours doing logicstics for Goonswarm. Due to RL, EVE is no longer 'good' for me. And looking at the numbers, looks like people like me are the majority.
So if you want to rage against people who made different life choices than you, go ahead. It is the internet after all. Just don't expect to change anything because I'm pretty sure telling a parent that 'you shouldn't have a kid' is probably not going to convince them.

Velifax

I'm a little lost as to the connection between your post title and the content. However, if you are attempting to attach blame to me personally for the current state of MMORPGs, I must resist. I understand that sometimes people are collectively responsible for things; like capitalism. But I am not in the slightest bit responsible for this change.

Distopia

Vardahoth said:

Velifax said:

I'm a little lost as to the connection between your post title and the content. However, if you are attempting to attach blame to me personally for the current state of MMORPGs, I must resist. I understand that sometimes people are collectively responsible for things; like capitalism. But I am not in the slightest bit responsible for this change.

^

He's referring to a collective we. Just like a collective we dropped many games to rush to WOW between 04-05, which I never did. Doesn't mean it wasn't a collective we who did just that.

Velifax

I see, so my exempting myself from that collective was redundant, as it was implied in his post. My mistake.

GeezerGamer

you are talking about your perspective. not the game's perspective. You are also only talking about 1 demographic (yours), not all of them.

I played WoW from 2005 to 2014 (On and off towards the latter) I am definitely older, but so are my kids. They also play online games now where they didn't a decade ago. You grew up and moved to new priorities. But you speak nothing of the generation behind you who would have graduated into the genre. So, you growing up and moving on is not why these games changed.  For the same reason Platform jumpers haven't changed in decades. You played them as a kid, your kids play them now. Their kids will play them too.

What happened was this: The older MMO was more or less a niche game that saw an anomaly move the game into a much broader demographic. But in order to try to keep that new demographic pleased, they have made changes to please the broader player base. Unfortunately, this came at the cost of the genre's original identity.

nariusseldon

GeezerGamer said:

What happened was this: The older MMO was more or less a niche game that saw an anomaly move the game into a much broader demographic. But in order to try to keep that new demographic pleased, they have made changes to please the broader player base. Unfortunately, this came at the cost of the genre's original identity.

another of saying this is that the "original identity" is behind its times, and no longer relevant to the larger market audience that devs want to cater to.

This happens all the time, in all sort of entertainment. Western used to be king, and they are now no where to be seen. Ditto for all those monster movies in the 20-30s. Now super heroes reign supreme, but their time will pass .. it is only a matter of when. 

JohnP0100

GeezerGamer said:

you are talking about your perspective. not the game's perspective. You are also only talking about 1 demographic (yours), not all of them.

I played WoW from 2005 to 2014 (On and off towards the latter) I am definitely older, but so are my kids. They also play online games now where they didn't a decade ago. You grew up and moved to new priorities. But you speak nothing of the generation behind you who would have graduated into the genre. So, you growing up and moving on is not why these games changed.  For the same reason Platform jumpers haven't changed in decades. You played them as a kid, your kids play them now. Their kids will play them too.

What happened was this: The older MMO was more or less a niche game that saw an anomaly move the game into a much broader demographic. But in order to try to keep that new demographic pleased, they have made changes to please the broader player base. Unfortunately, this came at the cost of the genre's original identity.

The avg age of a gamer is increasing.
If you have evidence of the contrary ,  sources please.