It's a complex issue. When the game itself promotes an environment prone for toxicity and hate, you're going to have people that are going to do exactly just that and more. Even if you have a game that promotes punishment upon toxicity or hate, you're going to get people who will bend or break the rules just for their enjoyment (subjective).
Then you have troubled individuals who maybe exhibiting masochist/sadist symptoms and just cause general grief among the player base. I'm not casting any negative light on any of these individuals or mentalities but it's a hard-pressed issue that needs to be identified because of the effects it has on other self-entertaining persons. Sociology is enlightening but it bears the shadows people will tend to overlook for positivism.
All these factors link up and voila! The butterfly effect is in play. WE ARE social creatures, whether we like it or not, we seek validation/rejection simultaneously from our peers intentionally or unintentionally while being influenced by the actions of others. This gives rise to some real whack jobs and whingers.
In the end I think the problem stems from people... Chicken and Egg, which came first?
Playing any game with lame people...makes playing the game lame right? You play chess with a person who just learned how to play multiple times and you keep beating them the same way. It's not chess that sucks but the experience you're sharing with this beginner.
I think some of the wrong people are playing Mmorpgs now and their infecting the right people....making them miserable in which case they turn into "This game sucks, that game sucks, here's the problem with this game."
Every game has problems but you usually overlook them because the problems mean nothing as opposed to the enjoyable experience. Grinding is nothing when you're grinding with your friends and chatting about life or whatever it is you like to chat about.
The truth is,if the people are great and you're enjoying your time with them you wouldn't really care about the game's flaws.(In My opinion)
What do you all think?
I somewhat agree with this. I've spent more time playing games that I know are bad, because i quickly formed lasting relationships with players in the game which kept me coming back to it, than I have in "good" games where either the community is just complete crap or i never really bothered to play much with others.
For example I played RF online for several years. My initial draw to it was it's somewhat unique style and mixing of genres (sci-fi and fantasy) as well as the PvP systems used. But it was also one of those games that wasn't very great looking, was nothing but a grindfest, and had horrible english translations. But I happened to join a guild full of some very cool people within about a week of starting out, quickly moved up to officer and in a matter of weeks a mutiny took place where everyone was tired of the original leader, recognized my skills and leadership abilities, and elected me as the new leader. From there I formed alliances with other guilds, continued rising up in the ranks of my faction, become well known through constantly PvPing and fending off enemy factions from desired grinding spots, and power leveling newer players while protecting them. Eventually became respected enough to become one of the Archons (elected council who lead the entire race). My brother also joined the game in the middle of all of that and along with me and a few friends we made in the game, became the clearly dominant force in the game over our own and the enemy factions. Eventually the game was shut down in NA, so we explored other games for some time but would quickly grow bored. But we always somehow made our way back to RF either for the official international servers which came out a year or so afte rthe NA shut down, or through private servers which were largely populated by familiar faces from the original servers.
We knew at the time that it was a pretty "bad" game, but those relationships we formed with players throughout the entire game, not just within a guild, made the game so worth playing. We even continued playing with many of those people, even former enemies, in guilds across several other games. But none of them held us quite like RF did with it's PvP and Archon systems.
VoiP is the destroyer of MMORPGs. Chat has become irrelevant and people are disconected from the world because they just sit on TS talking to RL people instead of TYPING to that dwarf you met in some forest and that Elf whose probably a guy but you refuse to accept it.
The magic is gone!
THIS THIS THIS THIS!! @Naowut: you are the ONLY person I've seen or heard that thinks the same way as I do on that subject. I wholly feel that voice chat has killed a big portion of community immersion. Guilds sit on TS3 or Vent and talk about IRL things with IRL people. Because of this, many people just turn off the game sounds. Music, sound effects, ambient noises, etc.... they put on Cartoon network and just over stimulate themselves with non-game related sensations and conversations. They ignore chat channels because, hey, "i can hear everyone" right? So, in effect, they are not talking to that Elf over there, or the dragonslayer guy that helped them earlier. They aren't commenting on the weather in the game, or the secret nooks and crannies they found in a particular forest... Instead, they chat on voip about last night's episode of adventure time, or what they saw in THE OTHER GAMES they're playing...
Totally killed the magic. Kudos to you sir. sorry I had to rant, but I feel very passionate about this shift in the genre.
It basically comes down to MMOs expanded their audience so the audience doesn't have as much in common as they used to. Plus you have so many games and other things competing for people's time now so it's less often you see someone just focus all their attention on one or two games for months or years and it makes it like players have constant ADD. I know personally I have hundreds of games in my Steam library I haven't played so it makes me patient with games than used to be. It's a quintessential first world problem but it's there.
VoiP is the destroyer of MMORPGs. Chat has become irrelevant and people are disconected from the world because they just sit on TS talking to RL people instead of TYPING to that dwarf you met in some forest and that Elf whose probably a guy but you refuse to accept it.
The magic is gone!
THIS THIS THIS THIS!! @Naowut: you are the ONLY person I've seen or heard that thinks the same way as I do on that subject. I wholly feel that voice chat has killed a big portion of community immersion. Guilds sit on TS3 or Vent and talk about IRL things with IRL people. Because of this, many people just turn off the game sounds. Music, sound effects, ambient noises, etc.... they put on Cartoon network and just over stimulate themselves with non-game related sensations and conversations. They ignore chat channels because, hey, "i can hear everyone" right? So, in effect, they are not talking to that Elf over there, or the dragonslayer guy that helped them earlier. They aren't commenting on the weather in the game, or the secret nooks and crannies they found in a particular forest... Instead, they chat on voip about last night's episode of adventure time, or what they saw in THE OTHER GAMES they're playing...
Totally killed the magic. Kudos to you sir. sorry I had to rant, but I feel very passionate about this shift in the genre.
This is correct but unspecified. VOIP were introduced by MMOGS (MOBAS/Shooters), not MMORPG. MMORPG relied on ventrilo or TS and the likes to have coordination and connectivity in terms of voice. Think tabletop RPGS and CRPGS, they all relied on voice for "the magic", not a chat box where you get to think first then type enter in.
With the above understanding, to say VOIP killed MMORPGs, you're saying loosely, competition-based online games killed MMORPGs. Confusingly, you somehow stumbled across the truth. Yet, it's so far from sincerity. Assumptions are great when you know nothing about the circumstances, right? We've seen across many threads that connections you make with people are the magic that's causing all the nostalgia... this didn't matter if the talking were about the game or outside of the game, as long as the socialising is present. You've now arrived in a paradox with your mentality.
VoiP is the destroyer of MMORPGs. Chat has become irrelevant and people are disconected...
THIS THIS THIS THIS!! @Naowut: you are the ONLY person I've seen or heard that thinks the same way as I do on that subject. I wholly feel that voice chat has killed a big portion of community immersion. Guilds sit on TS3 or Vent and talk about IRL things with IRL people....
I'll be honest, when I read Nao's post, and started to read yours, I just rolled my eyes, but...
I can completely appreciate what you're saying. There were so many times I'd login to Ventrilo and not into the game, or log into Vent even after I'd quit the game.
Very nice post on the subject. Thank you.
(The reason I rolled my eyes, is that we all have to acknowledge that Voice is a boon to the coordination in mmo's. It's nigh impossible to do your rotation and type at the same time. As matter of fact, it IS impossible in most games.) But I must agree it damages the immersion.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
VoiP is the destroyer of MMORPGs. Chat has become irrelevant and people are disconected from the world because they just sit on TS talking to RL people instead of TYPING to that dwarf you met in some forest and that Elf whose probably a guy but you refuse to accept it.
The magic is gone!
THIS THIS THIS THIS!! @Naowut: you are the ONLY person I've seen or heard that thinks the same way as I do on that subject. I wholly feel that voice chat has killed a big portion of community immersion. Guilds sit on TS3 or Vent and talk about IRL things with IRL people. Because of this, many people just turn off the game sounds. Music, sound effects, ambient noises, etc.... they put on Cartoon network and just over stimulate themselves with non-game related sensations and conversations. They ignore chat channels because, hey, "i can hear everyone" right? So, in effect, they are not talking to that Elf over there, or the dragonslayer guy that helped them earlier. They aren't commenting on the weather in the game, or the secret nooks and crannies they found in a particular forest... Instead, they chat on voip about last night's episode of adventure time, or what they saw in THE OTHER GAMES they're playing...
Totally killed the magic. Kudos to you sir. sorry I had to rant, but I feel very passionate about this shift in the genre.
This is correct but unspecified. VOIP were introduced by MMOGS (MOBAS/Shooters), not MMORPG. MMORPG relied on ventrilo or TS and the likes to have coordination and connectivity in terms of voice. Think tabletop RPGS and CRPGS, they all relied on voice for "the magic", not a chat box you type enter in.
To say VOIP killed MMORPGs, you're saying loosely, competition-based games killed MMORPGs. Confusingly, you somehow stumbled across the truth. Yet, it's so far from sincerity. Assumptions are great when you know nothing about the circumstances, right? We've seen across many threads that connections you make with people are the magic that's causing all the nostalgia... this didn't matter if the talking were about the game or outside of the game, as long as the socialising is present. You've now arrived in a paradox.
This response reminds me of a very annoying friend of mine that counters every conversation/debate/argument with a story of "the exception(s)" as if that will shift the base of any subject matter.
Person A: "Life is tough! I wish it wasn't so hard to make money!" Person B with the "exception" approach: "No way! Life is easy! I found a dollar on the ground this morning!" Person A: "What's your point?" .... so.... I want to ask "what's your point?" but tbh, it's not important enough. I don't care. You know what we're saying. You know that our POINT is more to the tune of "how MOST MMORPG players seem to use voice chat, it has resulted in less players using typed chat and the original means for players to communicate with each other goes unused now, replaced with voice-chat in which people don't feel compelled to speak IN CHARACTER as much as they would typing as it shows "Magicka DeLuna says: Greetings and good day! How be the wonderful citizens of X town this eve?" where as now it's "sup guys? sorry i'm late. was pwning nubes in [game] . Where's Chris? tell that f____er to get on! I need to hurry and run this dungeon so I can finish my homework and then play some more [game] and get my 'pwn nubz achievement' --- it's obvious which version of communication kills the immersion. This is a made up example, and don't you dare try to say this is not accurate, because anyone who has to deal with constant voice chat knows what I'm talking about.
I only have to explain this kind of thing to assholes and exceptionists who just want to start a debate. Not calling any names... just stating the similarities.
@MMOvision I think you've taken what I said, directed at @Naowut, to be aimed at you as a personal attack.
What I said is no exception? I clearly stated Voice over IP is a feature that was needed by MMORPGs, you've used being in a guild as a example, so you know this to be true (I recommend reading what I wrote THOROUGHLY).
I then went on to state specifically, Build-in VoIP were introduced FIRST by MOBAs/Shooters, not MMORPG. Hence, to quote @Naowut "VoIP is the destroyer of MMORPGs", can also mean, MMOGs killed MMORPGs. We can all see the fallacy here, no?
I even went onto explain oldschool table top RPGs and then CRPGs included both VOICE and TEXT. As they both had its merits, especially voice because of the changes in tones or volumes can really lighten or darken the current mood. How can you say with this notion, that VoIP killed MMORPGs? This can be understood if you've never played any of those, then I can say safely you've no part in this discussion as you don't even know what ROLE PLAYING means or where the fucking MAGIC comes from, lol.
You want to get personal, fair, I personally don't have the time to do this here though cause I got plenty of mates who I shit talk on a daily while enjoying real life stuff. (I live in Australia, really relaxed lifestyles here).
OH and what? I said in my first sentence you are correct but the statement of @Naowut is just utter shit because of the above reasons.
TL;DR - VoIP didn't kill any MMORPGs, it's actually a requirement of any ONLINE games nowadays. It's the people who choose to not role play or type to the strangers in game that are KILLING MMORPGs, get your specifications right, as I fucking said in my first sentence, you nitwit.
TL:DR - MMos are made to support the most lazy who 'want it all with no effort' which creates more people of that mentality with those people crying out if they aren't handed stuff and just jumping to another game with the inflated market of MMos. Both sides feed on one another and drag mmos down.
It's a mixed bag that plays upon one another. MMos are designed now to pretty much constantly reward players, diminishing the return of it greatly. At the same time, players are spoon fed to feel 'special' making them demand stuff being handed to them over earning them. Its an endless loop that adding in the fact there are so many MMos in the market, it makes it difficult for players to grow attached to one, most of our attachment instead being taken with nostalgia (part of the reason why games like WoW and Lineage 1 are still huge today despite their age).
Unfortunately, it feeds onto itself, with wow being a great example of the 'We want to see everything" spoiled child mentality negatively effecting the longevity of the game by removing the mystery and causing content to grow older vastly faster then before. It attempts to give everyone 'everything' and ruins to sense of accomplishment that players want. At the same time if they remove it, some people will just quit as they are sadly trained to having stuff given to them while smashing their heads into keyboards that not getting it without effort is 'not worth the time' and thus vastly lowering a sense of accomplishment they feel for doing anything at all.
It comes down to developers standing their ground against the lazy and making them work to get stuff they want and not giving into childish crying for 'wanting it all', taking some initial loss but helping to build up the sense of exploration and achievement which will cause players to want to play more and feel accomplished doing so.
This often stems on giving UNIQUE content that can let players constantly get a feeling of accomplishment and pull up the stragglers to be more competent players (and providing them content) so they want to keep going and seeing how far they can get. This can be 'raiding' or the act of 'leveling'. MMos are often lacking the challenge for them to pull through, and focusing far to much on being 'idiot friendly' content without giving people a reason to test themselves and give them hurdles to go over to see new things. Ragnarok Online (classic grindy game) did this by giving a strong sense of progression of character, one that ramped the difficulty up and gave you so many options to do, with many increasing in difficulty but also the rewards. Wow did this primarily with its Raid Progression Tiers giving users a 'curve' to work up through raids, allowing players to be all at different steps of this curve (often with some catch up mechanics in place) to want to experience it often finding groups at a like position to play with to get further along towards that 'end tier'.
VoiP is the destroyer of MMORPGs. Chat has become irrelevant and people are disconected...
THIS THIS THIS THIS!! @Naowut: you are the ONLY person I've seen or heard that thinks the same way as I do on that subject. I wholly feel that voice chat has killed a big portion of community immersion. Guilds sit on TS3 or Vent and talk about IRL things with IRL people....
I'll be honest, when I read Nao's post, and started to read yours, I just rolled my eyes, but...
I can completely appreciate what you're saying. There were so many times I'd login to Ventrilo and not into the game, or log into Vent even after I'd quit the game.
Very nice post on the subject. Thank you.
(The reason I rolled my eyes, is that we all have to acknowledge that Voice is a boon to the coordination in mmo's. It's nigh impossible to do your rotation and type at the same time. As matter of fact, it IS impossible in most games.) But I must agree it damages the immersion.
Maybe clarifying that VOIP bundled with Action Combat killed MMORPGs. Before action combat, it was easy to type while fighting. "Auto-attack" gets laughed at these days, but it helped promote community. Most combat these days almost requires VOIP in order to talk to others. The bad part is that a player talks only to those on the same server/channel. Forget chatting with some random stranger one meets in a forest, fending off bears.
When WoW came out, the MMORPG genre had a massive influx of casuals. And I do mean massive, the MMO demographics went from a few millions in EQ, Lineage and FF, to tens of millions in a matter of a couple of years.
These 2 groups of players aren't the same type of players.
I agree. It took me years, but I finally figured out that I'm NOT an MMO fan. I'm a WoW TBC fan.
For me, TBC got it right.
EDIT: So for me, the problem isn't the games or the people. I'm like a vegetarian in the meat department. Just not interested.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I don't personally believe voice chat is the sole item to blame (if there is one) for the "death of world emersion"
Although I definitely have a bias and feel it has taken a big part in ruining mine over the years. Tbh, I didn't really nitpick the OP as much as much as i may have normally, one reason surely being that it was just so nice to see someone else say it that wasn't me for a change.
I definitely understand the dilemma when it comes to the need for quick, on the fly communication with the same or quicker response time; however, as VestigeGamer mentioned; action-y combat is clearly where voice comms are more of a requirement to perform optimally and coordinate multiple others. In any massive combat situation, really. Voice comms are beneficial for sure. I don't think that's the point the op was making, (I could be wrong of course)
That's not what or why I'm agreeing with the topic. I simply don't like that typed chat has been practically brushed off by what feels like the vast majority of players I interact with in modern online games, and voice comm over-use, and the reality that it is promoted for all aspects of gameplay, imo, is a huge factor and bummer.
Oh and @jc234 , you're pretty much right. I took it as an attack and toned back defensive. Sorry if it got personal. /Hug, /cheer /bow /high-five, /etc
Sometimes I wonder why a lot of gamers even bother playing MMORPGs anymore. Like you said, they would rather watch a movie or chat in TS3 or Vent about IRL events than ENJOY the game.
Many of them don't play MMORPGs anymore. That is why blizz don't make new MMORPGs anymore.
Or don't play the games as MMORPGs ... they may just go in and play a quick dungeon, or a quick battle, no different than D3, or LoL.
When WoW came out, the MMORPG genre had a massive influx of casuals. And I do mean massive, the MMO demographics went from a few millions in EQ, Lineage and FF, to tens of millions in a matter of a couple of years.
These 2 groups of players aren't the same type of players.
I agree. It took me years, but I finally figured out that I'm NOT an MMO fan. I'm a WoW TBC fan.
For me, TBC got it right.
EDIT: So for me, the problem isn't the games or the people. I'm like a vegetarian in the meat department. Just not interested.
Definitely. I agree with both of you, and these are both extremely valid points that hold far more weight than (IMHO) way too many "Deci$ion Maker$", publishers, and mainstream-gamers-alike take in to consideration. The flood of gamers that came in to the genre, directly and unquestionably a result of WoW in one way or another (a gazillion others), strongarmed the geeky computer people (like myself) out of the way and took over our hold over the niche. Our relevance evaporated simultaneously as us geeky computer people ceased to be the majority of the player-base.
So, that being the case, moving on to the point that XAPken made, it kind of sucks to think about how many MILLIONS of wowtbc/wowotlk/wowcata-and-beyond players could have and arguably, Should have just self reflected and come to the same conclusion that they are NOT MMORPG fans/players, but rather, fans of whatever arcade-version of WoW they got into.
How much change would we or would we not have seen had these people taken their interests to genres they truly enjoyed instead of crying out and paying out for the genre to mutate into a putrid business-focused cash-grab low-effort no-vision rinse-repeat version of itself?
The average mmo player nowadays in NA is 30+, It would be nice if mmo makers realized this and started making mmos specifically for this age group in every way possible. And no I don't mean those who are too busy to play. MMO's were never -meant- for you, go play a single player or multiplayer game or a console game and leave the mmos to those who have time to appreciate a WORLD.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
The average mmo player nowadays in NA is 30+, It would be nice if mmo makers realized this and started making mmos specifically for this age group in every way possible. And no I don't mean those who are too busy to play. MMO's were never -meant- for you, go play a single player or multiplayer game or a console game and leave the mmos to those who have time to appreciate a WORLD.
Not to be "that guy" (the exceptionist), but what I'm going to say will sound just like that at first, so bare with me...
I am in that age group and demographic of 30+ with career/family/bills/etc
I also am strongly disappointed with the watered down mainstream-friendly excuse for a genre this has become. Notice that I did not say casual-friendly. I wish MMORPGs were still -worlds- and not just -games- as they are now. I wish it took months or years to cap, providing opportunity to get to know other players and build a community, unlike the days/weeks it takes to rush to endgame treadmill in today's games. I'm not an exception, though, because I know too many similar people personally, and read plenty of posts from such people on the internet.
We, the people you pointed out and told to go play console games, are not, imo, the problem in many cases. I think we are the typical casual gamers. At least, as far as the demographics go and what marketing teams see, we are subgroup of the mainstream bulk that flooded in, and in lots of cases (I would argue most, which is what I think makes this not an exceptionist statement), me being an example; we are a totally separate group with vastly different tastes and approach to each game. I think mainstream-wowtbc/wotlk/catapanda+ generation is often mistaken for casual gamers that just don't have a lot of time to play, or even simply choose not to play as often as the opposite spectrum 'hardcore' gamer.
I think the vocalized group of players from the influx are indeed the ones with lots of time to play, but little attention span, or patience, or both. I think this is the group more to focus scrutiny on as opposed to those of us who just don't play as much as we'd like to, but still appreciate the core values of what MMORPGs were and are supposed to be.
The average mmo player nowadays in NA is 30+, It would be nice if mmo makers realized this and started making mmos specifically for this age group in every way possible. And no I don't mean those who are too busy to play. MMO's were never -meant- for you, go play a single player or multiplayer game or a console game and leave the mmos to those who have time to appreciate a WORLD.
You have it reversed. I do not like virtual world games, and i don't have time for long games.
MMO devs don't have to cater to me ... but they do. They make MMOs convenient, without virtual worlds, and fun for a little while.
Now if they make me like it a bit, is there a reason why i should discriminate against MMO and only play single player games? I don't think so. When MMOs are all virtual world games, i will leave ... but before that, there is no reason i should not enjoy myself.
I'll be honest, when I read Nao's post, and started to read yours, I just rolled my eyes, but...
I can completely appreciate what you're saying. There were so many times I'd login to Ventrilo and not into the game, or log into Vent even after I'd quit the game.
Very nice post on the subject. Thank you.
(The reason I rolled my eyes, is that we all have to acknowledge that Voice is a boon to the coordination in mmo's. It's nigh impossible to do your rotation and type at the same time. As matter of fact, it IS impossible in most games.) But I must agree it damages the immersion.
Maybe clarifying that VOIP bundled with Action Combat killed MMORPGs. Before action combat, it was easy to type while fighting. "Auto-attack" gets laughed at these days, but it helped promote community. Most combat these days almost requires VOIP in order to talk to others. The bad part is that a player talks only to those on the same server/channel. Forget chatting with some random stranger one meets in a forest, fending off bears.
Nah, my favorite and longest played MMO was FFXI which auto-attack took up more of its combat than most games still running and still...
Typing even a short phrase while trying to keep shadows up (as a tank) or trying to find the time to ask for refresh while trying to heal an intensive period.. these were pretty rough.
It's game changing to be able to just say "doom" into a microphone while trying still running your rotation.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
... MMO's were never -meant- for you, go play a single player or multiplayer game or a console game and leave the mmos to those who have time to appreciate a WORLD.
You have it reversed. I do not like virtual world games, and i don't have time for long games.
MMO devs don't have to cater to me ... but they do. They make MMOs convenient, without virtual worlds, and fun for a little while.
Now if they make me like it a bit, is there a reason why i should discriminate against MMO and only play single player games? I don't think so. When MMOs are all virtual world games, i will leave ... but before that, there is no reason i should not enjoy myself.
@nariusseldon - That's a valid and interesting point.
Come to think of it, it may touch on another interesting perspective. I think that very argument is something gamers often base their frustration on, without even realizing it at times. Myself included. Anyone who does buy in to what is being sold right now and enjoying it and buying more and ignoring the "worldy" titles is contributing to the "problem". Speaking with one's wallet is never ignored.
But see, as you mentioned, why should you not enjoy yourself? Why should you not consume the product designed for you?
The only reasons I figure someone wouldn't are either: 1) Pure and utter consideration and devotion to positively impacting the gaming experience of those of us oldMMORPG-niche roadies
2) More interest in games outside the genre that are also designed for your demographic
I think because of this obvious bland level of choice, there's frustration that brews every time someone on either end of the spectrum notices someone on the other end being outward about their financial and vocal support of what the other feels is ruining the genre.
I have to take responsibility for feeling that way at times, I know it's had to have happened plenty. I also don't think I was wrong in feeling that way. I also don't think you or others who just enjoy what the new "MMO scene" is are wrong.
It's not our fault we're forced in to the same room together. All the food is in here. Even the stuff I don't like, and the stuff you don't like.
MMORPG catered to people who probably shouldn't play MMORPG. Before anyone tries to claim I am elitist its just my opinion on the direction the genre was headed. A localized multiplayer RPG with Esports matches would satisfy the casual majority. I mean that's essentially what you get down to when you slowly marginalize the advantages MMORPG can have to appease a market that doesn't want or need it. MMORPG developers were trying to serve motorcycle enthusiast by selling them cars then reducing them til they almost become a motorcycle.
Its not surprising that community has suffered as we have had games slowly reduced to informal multiplayer games that you play by yourself. I won't say players are better or worst because there were horrible horrible people I played with in the late 90s. I will say that part of community is to actually have one that interacts good or bad. Game play is designed that you never have to actually interact with anyone directly.
You add in outside social outlets like cellphones, voice communications, social media and etc. You now have a games where chat is almost empty. The only way for a return to localized community in some for is to have interdependence. Combat, economic or any other game play hooks that have you ACTIVELY seek out players that aren't in your social network. Until then you will always have insular guild communities in MMORPG.
MMORPG catered to people who probably shouldn't play MMORPG. Before anyone tries to claim I am elitist its just my opinion on the direction the genre was headed. A localized multiplayer RPG with Esports matches would satisfy the casual majority. I mean that's essentially what you get down to when you slowly marginalize the advantages MMORPG can have to appease a market that doesn't want or need it. MMORPG developers were trying to serve motorcycle enthusiast by selling them cars then reducing them til they almost become a motorcycle.
You got it reversed. MMORPG devs do not want to cater to the old school MMORPG players anymore. They are not catering to people who should not play MMORPGs. They are changing MMORPGs to cater to people who do not like MMORPGs.
And why shouldn't they do that? It is their games. If they don't like MMORPG players for any reason, and what to change their audience, is there a problem? It is a free market after all.
In fact, MMORPG is turning into "MP RPG with Esports match" (and sometimes just e-sport matches) precisely because of what i said.
And why shouldn't they do that? It is their games. If they don't like MMORPG players for any reason, and what to change their audience, is there a problem? It is a free market after all.
In fact, MMORPG is turning into "MP RPG with Esports match" (and sometimes just e-sport matches) precisely because of what i said.
But why shouldn't people complain if they don't like the new games? Even if it is a minority and most people like the games the way they are we still have a right to make our feelings known. The companies can take or leave what we say but we don't just have to pretend we love the new games because "that's the way it is now." Forums like this demonstrate a certain market for old-school MMO mechanics which is not being satisfied by the current games on offer. Perhaps some day a dev will come along who wants to exploit that market. I'm sure the majority of games will always cater to casuals like you unless the market change a lot though so you don't have to try to silence any criticism of these game mechanics.
And why shouldn't they do that? It is their games. If they don't like MMORPG players for any reason, and what to change their audience, is there a problem? It is a free market after all.
In fact, MMORPG is turning into "MP RPG with Esports match" (and sometimes just e-sport matches) precisely because of what i said.
But why shouldn't people complain if they don't like the new games?
No one says they should not. And in fact, they do that day in and day out here.
There is no conflict with the fact that devs are not obligated to listen. In fact, given where the market is going, devs are ignoring those who don't like the old games. Even Blizz scrapped their old style MMORPG, in flavor of MOBA, card games, and online shooters (no doubt all will be called MMOs at some point).
So feel free to complain. In fact, that is what driving the "fun" on this forum. But it would be naive to believe that "complaint" = "changing the market".
You are free to complain, and I am free to point out why devs don't have to listen. See, free speech works.
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Then you have troubled individuals who maybe exhibiting masochist/sadist symptoms and just cause general grief among the player base. I'm not casting any negative light on any of these individuals or mentalities but it's a hard-pressed issue that needs to be identified because of the effects it has on other self-entertaining persons. Sociology is enlightening but it bears the shadows people will tend to overlook for positivism.
All these factors link up and voila! The butterfly effect is in play. WE ARE social creatures, whether we like it or not, we seek validation/rejection simultaneously from our peers intentionally or unintentionally while being influenced by the actions of others. This gives rise to some real whack jobs and whingers.
In the end I think the problem stems from people... Chicken and Egg, which came first?
For example I played RF online for several years. My initial draw to it was it's somewhat unique style and mixing of genres (sci-fi and fantasy) as well as the PvP systems used. But it was also one of those games that wasn't very great looking, was nothing but a grindfest, and had horrible english translations. But I happened to join a guild full of some very cool people within about a week of starting out, quickly moved up to officer and in a matter of weeks a mutiny took place where everyone was tired of the original leader, recognized my skills and leadership abilities, and elected me as the new leader. From there I formed alliances with other guilds, continued rising up in the ranks of my faction, become well known through constantly PvPing and fending off enemy factions from desired grinding spots, and power leveling newer players while protecting them. Eventually became respected enough to become one of the Archons (elected council who lead the entire race). My brother also joined the game in the middle of all of that and along with me and a few friends we made in the game, became the clearly dominant force in the game over our own and the enemy factions. Eventually the game was shut down in NA, so we explored other games for some time but would quickly grow bored. But we always somehow made our way back to RF either for the official international servers which came out a year or so afte rthe NA shut down, or through private servers which were largely populated by familiar faces from the original servers.
We knew at the time that it was a pretty "bad" game, but those relationships we formed with players throughout the entire game, not just within a guild, made the game so worth playing. We even continued playing with many of those people, even former enemies, in guilds across several other games. But none of them held us quite like RF did with it's PvP and Archon systems.
Totally killed the magic. Kudos to you sir. sorry I had to rant, but I feel very passionate about this shift in the genre.
With the above understanding, to say VOIP killed MMORPGs, you're saying loosely, competition-based online games killed MMORPGs. Confusingly, you somehow stumbled across the truth. Yet, it's so far from sincerity. Assumptions are great when you know nothing about the circumstances, right? We've seen across many threads that connections you make with people are the magic that's causing all the nostalgia... this didn't matter if the talking were about the game or outside of the game, as long as the socialising is present. You've now arrived in a paradox with your mentality.
I can completely appreciate what you're saying. There were so many times I'd login to Ventrilo and not into the game, or log into Vent even after I'd quit the game.
Very nice post on the subject. Thank you.
(The reason I rolled my eyes, is that we all have to acknowledge that Voice is a boon to the coordination in mmo's. It's nigh impossible to do your rotation and type at the same time. As matter of fact, it IS impossible in most games.) But I must agree it damages the immersion.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Person A: "Life is tough! I wish it wasn't so hard to make money!"
Person B with the "exception" approach: "No way! Life is easy! I found a dollar on the ground this morning!"
Person A: "What's your point?"
....
so.... I want to ask "what's your point?" but tbh, it's not important enough. I don't care. You know what we're saying. You know that our POINT is more to the tune of "how MOST MMORPG players seem to use voice chat, it has resulted in less players using typed chat and the original means for players to communicate with each other goes unused now, replaced with voice-chat in which people don't feel compelled to speak IN CHARACTER as much as they would typing as it shows "Magicka DeLuna says: Greetings and good day! How be the wonderful citizens of X town this eve?" where as now it's "sup guys? sorry i'm late. was pwning nubes in [game] . Where's Chris? tell that f____er to get on! I need to hurry and run this dungeon so I can finish my homework and then play some more [game] and get my 'pwn nubz achievement' --- it's obvious which version of communication kills the immersion. This is a made up example, and don't you dare try to say this is not accurate, because anyone who has to deal with constant voice chat knows what I'm talking about.
I only have to explain this kind of thing to assholes and exceptionists who just want to start a debate. Not calling any names... just stating the similarities.
What I said is no exception? I clearly stated Voice over IP is a feature that was needed by MMORPGs, you've used being in a guild as a example, so you know this to be true (I recommend reading what I wrote THOROUGHLY).
I then went on to state specifically, Build-in VoIP were introduced FIRST by MOBAs/Shooters, not MMORPG. Hence, to quote @Naowut "VoIP is the destroyer of MMORPGs", can also mean, MMOGs killed MMORPGs. We can all see the fallacy here, no?
I even went onto explain oldschool table top RPGs and then CRPGs included both VOICE and TEXT. As they both had its merits, especially voice because of the changes in tones or volumes can really lighten or darken the current mood. How can you say with this notion, that VoIP killed MMORPGs? This can be understood if you've never played any of those, then I can say safely you've no part in this discussion as you don't even know what ROLE PLAYING means or where the fucking MAGIC comes from, lol.
You want to get personal, fair, I personally don't have the time to do this here though cause I got plenty of mates who I shit talk on a daily while enjoying real life stuff. (I live in Australia, really relaxed lifestyles here).
OH and what? I said in my first sentence you are correct but the statement of @Naowut is just utter shit because of the above reasons.
TL;DR - VoIP didn't kill any MMORPGs, it's actually a requirement of any ONLINE games nowadays. It's the people who choose to not role play or type to the strangers in game that are KILLING MMORPGs, get your specifications right, as I fucking said in my first sentence, you nitwit.
It's a mixed bag that plays upon one another. MMos are designed now to pretty much constantly reward players, diminishing the return of it greatly. At the same time, players are spoon fed to feel 'special' making them demand stuff being handed to them over earning them. Its an endless loop that adding in the fact there are so many MMos in the market, it makes it difficult for players to grow attached to one, most of our attachment instead being taken with nostalgia (part of the reason why games like WoW and Lineage 1 are still huge today despite their age).
Unfortunately, it feeds onto itself, with wow being a great example of the 'We want to see everything" spoiled child mentality negatively effecting the longevity of the game by removing the mystery and causing content to grow older vastly faster then before. It attempts to give everyone 'everything' and ruins to sense of accomplishment that players want. At the same time if they remove it, some people will just quit as they are sadly trained to having stuff given to them while smashing their heads into keyboards that not getting it without effort is 'not worth the time' and thus vastly lowering a sense of accomplishment they feel for doing anything at all.
It comes down to developers standing their ground against the lazy and making them work to get stuff they want and not giving into childish crying for 'wanting it all', taking some initial loss but helping to build up the sense of exploration and achievement which will cause players to want to play more and feel accomplished doing so.
This often stems on giving UNIQUE content that can let players constantly get a feeling of accomplishment and pull up the stragglers to be more competent players (and providing them content) so they want to keep going and seeing how far they can get. This can be 'raiding' or the act of 'leveling'. MMos are often lacking the challenge for them to pull through, and focusing far to much on being 'idiot friendly' content without giving people a reason to test themselves and give them hurdles to go over to see new things. Ragnarok Online (classic grindy game) did this by giving a strong sense of progression of character, one that ramped the difficulty up and gave you so many options to do, with many increasing in difficulty but also the rewards. Wow did this primarily with its Raid Progression Tiers giving users a 'curve' to work up through raids, allowing players to be all at different steps of this curve (often with some catch up mechanics in place) to want to experience it often finding groups at a like position to play with to get further along towards that 'end tier'.
VG
I agree. It took me years, but I finally figured out that I'm NOT an MMO fan. I'm a WoW TBC fan.
For me, TBC got it right.
EDIT: So for me, the problem isn't the games or the people. I'm like a vegetarian in the meat department. Just not interested.
1) When MMO's first bloomed it was a way for geeks to chat, now no.
2) Mainstreaming MMO's (WoW) showed that they could appeal to the masses (make money), the passion to make them was replaced with $$$
Or don't play the games as MMORPGs ... they may just go in and play a quick dungeon, or a quick battle, no different than D3, or LoL.
So, that being the case, moving on to the point that XAPken made, it kind of sucks to think about how many MILLIONS of wowtbc/wowotlk/wowcata-and-beyond players could have and arguably, Should have just self reflected and come to the same conclusion that they are NOT MMORPG fans/players, but rather, fans of whatever arcade-version of WoW they got into.
How much change would we or would we not have seen had these people taken their interests to genres they truly enjoyed instead of crying out and paying out for the genre to mutate into a putrid business-focused cash-grab low-effort no-vision rinse-repeat version of itself?
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
I am in that age group and demographic of 30+ with career/family/bills/etc
I also am strongly disappointed with the watered down mainstream-friendly excuse for a genre this has become.
Notice that I did not say casual-friendly.
I wish MMORPGs were still -worlds- and not just -games- as they are now.
I wish it took months or years to cap, providing opportunity to get to know other players and build a community, unlike the days/weeks it takes to rush to endgame treadmill in today's games.
I'm not an exception, though, because I know too many similar people personally, and read plenty of posts from such people on the internet.
We, the people you pointed out and told to go play console games, are not, imo, the problem in many cases. I think we are the typical casual gamers. At least, as far as the demographics go and what marketing teams see, we are subgroup of the mainstream bulk that flooded in, and in lots of cases (I would argue most, which is what I think makes this not an exceptionist statement), me being an example; we are a totally separate group with vastly different tastes and approach to each game. I think mainstream-wowtbc/wotlk/catapanda+ generation is often mistaken for casual gamers that just don't have a lot of time to play, or even simply choose not to play as often as the opposite spectrum 'hardcore' gamer.
I think the vocalized group of players from the influx are indeed the ones with lots of time to play, but little attention span, or patience, or both. I think this is the group more to focus scrutiny on as opposed to those of us who just don't play as much as we'd like to, but still appreciate the core values of what MMORPGs were and are supposed to be.
MMO devs don't have to cater to me ... but they do. They make MMOs convenient, without virtual worlds, and fun for a little while.
Now if they make me like it a bit, is there a reason why i should discriminate against MMO and only play single player games? I don't think so. When MMOs are all virtual world games, i will leave ... but before that, there is no reason i should not enjoy myself.
Typing even a short phrase while trying to keep shadows up (as a tank) or trying to find the time to ask for refresh while trying to heal an intensive period.. these were pretty rough.
It's game changing to be able to just say "doom" into a microphone while trying still running your rotation.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Come to think of it, it may touch on another interesting perspective. I think that very argument is something gamers often base their frustration on, without even realizing it at times. Myself included. Anyone who does buy in to what is being sold right now and enjoying it and buying more and ignoring the "worldy" titles is contributing to the "problem". Speaking with one's wallet is never ignored.
But see, as you mentioned, why should you not enjoy yourself? Why should you not consume the product designed for you?
The only reasons I figure someone wouldn't are either:
1) Pure and utter consideration and devotion to positively impacting the gaming experience of those of us oldMMORPG-niche roadies
2) More interest in games outside the genre that are also designed for your demographic
I think because of this obvious bland level of choice, there's frustration that brews every time someone on either end of the spectrum notices someone on the other end being outward about their financial and vocal support of what the other feels is ruining the genre.
I have to take responsibility for feeling that way at times, I know it's had to have happened plenty.
I also don't think I was wrong in feeling that way.
I also don't think you or others who just enjoy what the new "MMO scene" is are wrong.
It's not our fault we're forced in to the same room together. All the food is in here. Even the stuff I don't like, and the stuff you don't like.
Its not surprising that community has suffered as we have had games slowly reduced to informal multiplayer games that you play by yourself. I won't say players are better or worst because there were horrible horrible people I played with in the late 90s. I will say that part of community is to actually have one that interacts good or bad. Game play is designed that you never have to actually interact with anyone directly.
You add in outside social outlets like cellphones, voice communications, social media and etc. You now have a games where chat is almost empty. The only way for a return to localized community in some for is to have interdependence. Combat, economic or any other game play hooks that have you ACTIVELY seek out players that aren't in your social network. Until then you will always have insular guild communities in MMORPG.
And why shouldn't they do that? It is their games. If they don't like MMORPG players for any reason, and what to change their audience, is there a problem? It is a free market after all.
In fact, MMORPG is turning into "MP RPG with Esports match" (and sometimes just e-sport matches) precisely because of what i said.
There is no conflict with the fact that devs are not obligated to listen. In fact, given where the market is going, devs are ignoring those who don't like the old games. Even Blizz scrapped their old style MMORPG, in flavor of MOBA, card games, and online shooters (no doubt all will be called MMOs at some point).
So feel free to complain. In fact, that is what driving the "fun" on this forum. But it would be naive to believe that "complaint" = "changing the market".
You are free to complain, and I am free to point out why devs don't have to listen. See, free speech works.