So yeah... should probably consider changing this bit, eh? releasing Q1, 2016. You know.. before the livestream and people head to your twitter to click any links.
3-hour pre-warning bump post!
Even if I got the converted time down wrong... today is the day we learn the fate of Epic Minds. EST and today just so happens to be Friday... today is the day indeed.
I do have some predictions and have some questions I might toss into the livestream.
Although, It's difficult to gauge how things will play out. I've never seen these developers before the making of the thread, or any of their livestreams. You cannot find any of the previous livestream's online, as they were never recorded and uploaded onto YouTube.
However, If you've read my side story investigation on page (2) you would know that developers behind Midora actually do have some real skill/talent. Furthermore they have remained reserved and professional even within public postings and have never truly made any real missteps.
This is a story about a developer taking money, and failing to deliver on his promises.
Again, and again... and again... and again... and again... and again.
Leading backers to the point of giving up on Midora ever happening... but it's not too late for them to regain trust, and credibility.
Will they fall down and become the next GREEDMONGER! OR Will they RISE UP above the overwhelming NEGATIVITY and BAD PRESS!
If you're here to witness Greedmonger legendary levels of failure then you might be disappointed.
What could happen?
A: Epic Minds delivers a livestream with tons of valuable information. Things relating to past events, answering pre-set questions, and live questions professionally. While talking about the future of midora, and showing off some of the build for those who lost hope, and talk about how they plan to come to a resolution for the backers who supported Midora, regaining public credibility in the process.
B: Epic Minds does indeed deliver a livestream but displays unprofessional "GreedMonger" levels of failness for all to witness, while struggling to answer pre-set questions/live questions. /Popcorn
C: Epic Minds fucks things up by delaying things yet again breaking another promise which would spell out clear instant defeat for them. They have a history of "Whoops, sorry guys... things are happening next week." excuses. /Popcorn
And my favorite part which we all should be here for... the playable build which could contain a whole new level of failure... but really it's all about how well they do in the livestream, and how well the build presents itself... god the future backer comments... I CANT WAIT ANYMORE!
They cannot afford to delay, this is truly the last chance they have to regain trust. I actually do believe they can turn things around, and regain backer trust and move forward... how will things play out?
If they manage to prove they've been working on
something, and have something to show when they were actively developing
the game before April-10th. Does that mean they get a free pass for the
year of poor community relations, and dishonest behavior? Hell no. They
are still responsible for delivering a resolution to the 3,359 backers.
I'm 80% confident in my time conversion...
Should be happening soon.
Still no update from the official midora update in advance for backers
--5:30PM in Paris-- Livestream happening at 6:00PM 12PM EST 10AM MST 9AM PT
*He posted .com instead of .net* updated Playable build has been posted in chat, build is windows only
43.1MB - Open to the backers and to the public "Basically, yes." "Everything you see has been implemented in March" (2015) ...that is when development ceased. ---
10:24 Developer is reportedly looking for a new job 10:26 Stream delayed last week because of it. *No one was available* - 10:27 Talking about the Paris attacks and nintendonuggets now 10:28 "We do not accept help"---well we do accept help... " 10:30 "That guy who said something about the paris attacks is an asshat"... 10:32 Talking about nintendonuggets now... 10:34 Talking about publishers... *My Comments* "He's explaining things pretty well 10:35 Talking about Nintendonuggets again 10:36 Talking about publisher/investors "Nondisclosure agreements, we need to protect our IP"
Mhyre is the one talking while zazzman (coder) is the one answering questions in chat
10:38: Still talking about nintendonuggets and the article "Nintendo nuggets only did this for publicity"
"Midora cannot be made without the team we made"
10:27 - Talking about publishers (Deeper details)
"Talk about the ..... we made, and a few changes if we can secure funding soon, and where we are with publishers right now" Unfortunately we could not sight any publishes.... couldnt work for some reasons... pretty close to making a deal" Someone out their for us"
"We cannot give you a publisher name (Falls under non-discolosure agreement" "Everything we do between companies is simply secret"
10:44: - Talking about companies and publishers some more
"Team17 would be a good fit but i cant do anything as long as i dont get a reply, no reply means they are probably not interested. Not going to harass them"
Team revolver we did get a reply, they like the game but they have to many games lined up for the future" They are not looking for more games" Just bad luck" Gives me hope at least"
10:47 "Ever since we ran out of money, it's been hell for us" I know I did a pretty bad job at informing you on kickstarter and everywher eelse, and that's mostly because i've spent most of my time finding publishers and stuff."
10:48 "(Twitter questions) how complete is the game (PDF supplied in the build) tech behind the game is complete" If we did get funding most of it would be spent on assets artwork, etc."
10:53 - Watchers dropping out
10:57 - Talking about Arenamode that was cancelled "I want to get everyone what they paid for"
11:01: MYHRE STEPPING DOWN AS DIRECTOR ZAZZMANN STEPPING UP
"I'm going to remain creative director" game development will be handled by ZAZZ" Hopefully should go well"
11:02 "To fund the game, right now if we do get a second programmer, well we need a second programmer and..ya with just a second programmer to fund and complete the entire game, we would need 120k with a third pixel artist, but that's trickey to do because we need to find something skilled enough to work with the other two pixel artists.
We would need 150k to complete the game, to complete the game (to complete the code of the game with a second programmer we need 3 or 4-months) and the pixel artist would need 6 or 8 months to complete all the assets)
10:06 "to complete the entire game we need to test the game, and do everything else once the game is done
"we would need 8 to 10 months (Once we do get funding)"
and thats not to say 120k would be used....(fell behind on translations)"
Game is planned to be released sometime next year"
11:21 - Talking on and on... about stuff that's making me fall asleep... more excuses left and right.
11:25 - Question from chat: "Hey... hardball question "How
much of the 73k (or rather 55k) from the kickstarter was spent on
Midora's development? (Pixel-art/Backgrounds/sound/etc) approx? and
which month did your funds run out? What was the last thing you bought
before your funding hit $0?" ""Wages were used for living costs"
"Making midora open source it's not about being greedy, and not about not caring for the backers, but is because we worked on midora so long with the intent we wanted to make this commercial... (missing dialogue) if we could maybe we would. We are not giving up on this" 11:31 - Talking about publishers again... close to making a deal.
11:36 - Epicmyhre & Zazz are the only two active developers working on the game
11:42.... yeah im pretty much done at this point... if these guys get a publisher... I'll be surprised and come back... but really they did manage to answer tons of questions and squash tons of past concerns... so perhaps with the honest livestream they will push into positive light..... need to try the playable build out to judge it a bit.
I watched for a little bit but all I was hearing was excuses for this and excuses for that.. If these guys wanted to make a game then they would have. The we don't have money ect ect is just excuses. There are thousands of indie developers making games with no money to start with. So for them to expect something different is just an excuse.
Without seeing proof I doubt that magical 70% tax actually happened to them like they said. Oh we didn't expect to pay taxs, it was just free money excuses. When you plan a budget you always take into account your going to have to pay taxs on that money and aquire the amount accordingly.
So yeah everything I heard from the live stream scream con to me.
Yeah. Excuses from the first minute on-wards. Ugh~
But...this pretty much
concludes things for my investigation and they answered every question really well both in video and chat. No real failures on the livestream and even after some intentional
HEAT questions came in to cause slight irritation (Intentionally) and such. They dealt
with the questions much better than I expected.
I would be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed
with the outcome.
Backers might warm up to them since a playable
build released... but i've played it and it felt like a joke... the
pixel art is good and music too don't get me wrong... but it just didn't really impress me all too much personally.. $55,000
to make THAT from June-2014-March-2015 is a bit of a joke for an alpha build that has been in the making since
June-2014...
and this is my opinion on Midora with what I see inside the public build.
if he manages to get a publisher well then... good for the backers! He truly will need another 120/150k to complete the game.
But anyway... the livestream verdict.
I don't believe he is a con-artist...
He admitted to failing at community relations.
I do believe he will be getting better at being transparent after this livestream and onwards.
He may have bought some time... but that doesn't mean people who supported him will keep quiet if no updates release in the future. He didn't offer a true resolution so this isn't entirely over
...basically said it will be another hellish couple of months as they still continue to seek a publisher in 2016.
Once again... I do believe they actually want to make the game.
Wish em luck on turning Midora into something more. It remains to be seen if he will find a publisher and will likely seep far into 2016.
11/28/2015 - FINAL UPDATE/VERDICT [Day after the livestream and 13-hours of rest]
The story has
concluded. He is not a con-artist Pg.03 11/27/2015 A livestream happened
and all past concerns, and all questions were answered live (really
well in my opinion)... but they struggled to give a complete resolution
for the future. The biggest news that came out from the livestream is
that Myhre stepped down as the top guy and ZAZZMAN (Senior-Developer) is
taking his spot and will be leading the game forward.
Problem
here is that the the guy who started the dream (Myhre) is simply not a
Games Developer and is instead an idea's guy with money to buy the
talent he needed. It really is that simple, he ran out of money and now
he cannot afford talent to complete the game. Although I see him in a
much brighter light now, compared to when the thread was made and I'm
sure he will be even more transparent going forward. However... that does not mean the story cant take a turn for the worst in the future.
They
won't be accomplishing anything without money, and cannot bring labor
of love into the mix because they simply don't have the talent to push
forward the games development with the game engine they use. These two
actively care about midora, while the rest of the very talented
developers are paid and are of course not interested in volunteer work.
In my opinion if they built the game on RPG-MAKER XP/VX, they would
probably be zooming through things and getting an actual game out.
The
saddest part is that they would accomplish the same level of quality
(Comparing the alpha build below to RPG-MAKER) because that's all I can
really see with it... except RPG-MAKER is far less buggy.
Everything that is in the build below can be accomplished without coding if you use the right engine. Best of luck to them, and thanks for reading!
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks to everyone who followed along with the thread! This concludes my investigation on Epic Minds. Midora... now run by ZAZZMAN who is still a ghost IMO.
Well all I can say I was not impressed by the demo.. Felt like something I had seen as a unity asset store template package with the art changed around.
I'm not a backer, I just opened this thread today and learned what is going on. I don't know these developers, but I am in their shoes. I have degrees in EE/ME/CS. I've been writing unsuccessful game code since 1983. haha.
I'm glad @Tybost got that background info on the collaborators of this project. I suspect that no one worked this project 100%. They all had day jobs that paid the bills. And whatever time they could find above and beyond their day jobs, they spent on Midora.
As an EE/ME at a minimum you work a 10 hour day so you put in 50 hours a week. More likely, you'll be asked to work 7 days a week for 2 or 3 years. So again, 70 hours a week is not unheard of. As a CS I start the week with a 72 hour day. Come to work and don't leave for 3 days. Follow that with two 12 hour shifts, so I have time to recover. I'm not saying that the Epic Minds crew were working 96 hour work weeks, and managing to spare 8 hours a week on Midora.
Let's break down how the money was possibly divided. I think one post said that Epic Minds cut of the 73k was 50k(~70%). So let assume that is what we are working with. Lets also assume that are each paid $20 an hour. I don't want to go into real world pay scales and individual jobs. Lets also assume that the total team is 6 people. Assume that each member can put in 25 hours a week.
But notice there was no writer mentioned. The writer makes up the quest, lore and random dialog. Notice how none of that was seen in the demo.
Myhre is the project lead. The lead rarely does any work, they delegate and assign the work like a general contractor on a construction project. Finding further funding can be a full time job.
Take what you will from what i have said. A day job can take a lot out of someone. Making it difficult to put in time on extra work. I don't know what issues this team is dealing with. I wish all parties involved good luck. I hope for a mutually agreeable resolution to this project.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
So 3350 backers =70something thousand dollars is like 25 bucks a person? I can buy 2 cases of beer with that and piss it away in the morning. Why would people cling on for dear life for that amount of money? You have been cheated and have no recourse but to keep being strung along by a con artist. This would really have to be a wake up call for the naive.
That links to a page with "this domain is for sale".......wow people got scammed pretty hard with this KS.
11/30/2015 - Build was taken down! For some reason the link directed to the .com (updating links) http://midora.net/getbuild
It's very shocking to see how much progress was done since Janurary 28th 2014. The build everyone is seeing has so little in it (four levels) and nothing to do at all... but if you look at this thread here.
Look at the images in the first post (if you dont want too then here is one below) My guess is that they cut out a shit ton of levels for the sake of showing as little as possible... which is really stupid this late in the game... go guns blazing... but the current alpha build is honestly a flat out joke.
Backers are shocked at how much was completed.
It also looks like the livestream was removed from Twitch.
He's not a bad person (evil) like Greedmonger's (Appleton) who scammed the shit out of people... and it sounds like he really wants to find a publisher to get more money to complete the game. People backed someone who has little to no developer experience, (a money man, idea's guy). He was simply a game director and failed to direct the game to completion with $55,000. They could've easily reused assets (Everything in the build linked above) and expanded upon everything if they had the right people to do it.
Myhre wants to hire more pixel artists and such, but what this game needs is a level designer/world builder and more that can place shit down and expand with what they already have... which is seemingly little to nothing. It's sad when many kids who use RPGMAKER end up pumping out more to do and offer a better experience than what that alpha build offers. I hope they do find a publisher and manage to finish the game, they don't seem like bad people.... just ambitious and inexperienced.
Poor backers... $73,470 for that... RIP these two fellos money
I could've sworn that the story was over and nothing new would come to light since the latest livestream that happened a couple of days ago, which diminished all past concerns. Everyone deserves the benefit of doubt, certainly when Midora has only been in development for a year.
But god do I regret writing the following line. Myhre answered past and some future concerns superbly. (In my mind
I'm thinking) if these guys do find a publisher, they would probably turn things around. Although, while the stream was riddled with excuses, it happened to offer backers some very important details that they needed to know. He handled questions professionally, and tackled nearly every single question. This went on for well over an hour which then ended up in a very disappointing popcorn adventure for me and others.
I then closed my investigation since they mostly squashed the very reason my thread was made, together with a livestream and the promised shit alpha build. However, something has happened which has caused me to come back here to reopen the investigation, and discussions on Myhre and ZAZZMANN. Since the livestream ended it was only a mere day after the recorded livestream was pulled down, two days later the alpha build was then taken down.
Those who missed the stream are out of luck for now. Including the alpha build which was promised to backers in earlier updates.
Which was then later responded...
I find this deeply disturbing. A build was promised to backers in previous updates, and the build was certainly provided during the stream. So why take it down a few days later? and If backers didn't get to watch the livestream, or play the shit build. Then a gigantic shadow is STILL covering their eyes, and the thread becomes relevant again. Backers have been left in the dark for far too long, the livestream and the alpha build shed all the darkness, and brought Epic Minds back into the light.
However, it feels like right after my 'investigation' closed and once the spotlight/heat was turned down. They immediately pulled the stream and eventually the alpha build itself. My problem with this is that they are yet again stringing backers along who missed it. Additionally in the response above they want to talk about the upcomign stream, and yet again about plans moving forward when THEY ALREADY EXPLAINED THOSE PLANS IN THE LAST STREAM 11/27/2015 and quite well indeed.
I'm very confused right now.
Backers who missed the stream are too!
What a shame Epic Minds.
You had an ACE escape but instead played the JOKER.
What can I think of you now after playing such a card on your backers.
You're clearly hiding your shit build, because you know once they play it they won't be strung along with your bullshit. You were so honest in your stream, and the build offered everything that backers needed to escape your grasps. It is the very reason I took a neutral stance and decided you be more transparent.
You had transparency for 24-hours and then put your shadow masks back on
Your backers deserve better, they deserve true transparency.
I removed the livestream archive and the build for very simple reasons:
1) The livestream had weird audio issues. We have tried to fix that in post before uploading it to YouTube, but no luck so far. I felt it was unfair for those who can't properly hear what I had to say, so I just removed it for now. We might do another livestream with different settings, or I might record myself answering each question again. Unsure at this point.
2) The same thing happened with the build. Some people reported corrupt files while some people reported the build not working at all. The build was removed to prevent any further harm or deception. It will be posted again in the next kickstarter update once we are certain everything works fine. Build errors are not surprising since we have never released anything before or tested it on that many machines.
Please don't jump to conclusions so quickly. There are a million things that can happen with a livestream and game files. I am still not sure why you would think I would try to hide anything when the stream did happen and the build was available.
You're still on the same hot-seat as before: No livestream, no alpha build, no footage to show.
1) Audio was fine in the livestream for a majority of the important questions. You don't have to do another informational livestream, simply make a new text update and fill out past questions/concerns, or a quick pre-recorded youtube video. Get on it sparky.
2) It's no surprise that some people wouldn't be able to run the game. Especially when it is restricted to windows only. Although most were able to download the alpha build and get it working (myself included) and while it was a buggy experience, and potentially harmful to Midora. It at minimum provided backers something, which is better than nothing.
Especially when you're being called a thief, scammer, etc.
You earned yourself time to find a solution, and gained credibility for being open and honest with your backers.
I'm sure your backers would be happy to see absolutely anything at this point. You could always open the build from your side and record some footage, and attach it alongside the pre/set questions in a new update. I could easily record some footage of the alpha build (still have it on my computer) and upload it for you to use if you lack any decent recording software. Take more confidence in the stuff you post for all to see!
You owe your backers something, right now you are once again in the same boat as before. You don't even have to provide the same alpha build, you could easily record some professional footage and share more than what you did in the livestream. Like... how much you spent for this artist to make these music tracks, which again is impressive sounding in my opinion. https://soundcloud.com/derris-kharlan/sets/ignis-aeternus
The first map where you walk around and attack the flower was something,
and the bridge with the chest that had an animation was certainly
something. Instead of a livestream how about a recorded stream that is
professionally done, to ensure the audio quality is top-notch and upload
it directly to youtube. Again you have many ways to go about this to reflect positive light on you and Midora.
You have stuff to show off to your backers, and could easily scratch up to the top and buy even more time whilst you seek a publisher. You've had too many past months of no content worthy updates since April-2015. (I've said this many times before, and right now you still have nothing up for backers to see) (likely only a handful) (less than 100) actually saw the livestream/pre-recorded-stream) and try the alpha build.
You need to have SOMETHING up 24/7. Although you definitely do not have a fun playable alpha build that is worthy of being seen by your backers. So
I honestly don't blame you for taking it down since it probably didn't
offer the experience you wanted to give your backers, and the livestream did have
some hitches, so fair enough. Thanks for coming on here to explain in deeper detail.
I will continue talking about Midora and bringing the issue back to light, until you stop stringing backers along (which you succeeded in your 11/27/2015 livestream).
I'm curious as to when your next livestream or pre-recorded YouTube session is, hopefully not too far out.
You OWE your backers something, mate. ANYTHING, and soon. Very Soon.
Wish you the best ...but again you need these important questions that need answered set in stone for backers.
Front page (PG.01) has been updated to include the recent events, updated the first post for new readers.
This continues to be a
story about a developer who has been releasing lackluster updates, and
has been failing to meet backer expectations.
My biggest problem right now is that both playable build, and livestream were pulled down. Since then everything that was learned from the livestream has yet to be posted to any social media channels.
It has been nearly a month since any official updates on the current status of the project. Unfortunate backers who missed the stream will continue to be left astray. I'm doubtful they will be able to find a publisher, as they will surely continue seeking one out in 2016, instead of bringing on volunteers and possibly jumping on a different more powerful engine, that is capable of pushing the game forward.
Above is the reality of the real status of Midora.
It takes more than just a guy with money and a dream to build a game, unfortunately you ran out of money and now your stuck in the mud unable to move forward. Creating a game is a labor of love, and you have to have the talent to
build games, and everlasting passion, and drive to work on a game day in, day
out.
Reality Check: Epic Minds was lead by an idea's guy who had money to buy talent, and had a dream of building a video game. It has a dedicated programmer who
is now leading the entire project. They may have more talent behind the
scenes, but nothing notable for game development. The very real problem
here is they do not have the drive, or the up-forward talent to push the
game in the right direction.
A real plan since your
chances of finding a publisher is just... unrealistic at this point with
your reputation ripping apart (and slowly getting worse with each passing week).
It won't be worth waiting for a publisher as your boat is sinking, and
your surroundings become increasingly hostile and full of danger in the
night. My only thoughts are: Volunteers? An engine that doesn't suck perhaps?
Money does not build a game.
Passion for game development and true talent does. A boat load of money to buy talent works too... but only when you have someone to direct the game towards success. You ran out of money, and you failed to push the game in any real direction. I really hate feeling like an asshat but it needs to be said. You really didn't get far with $70,000 and without a publisher I don't see you going anywhere. /Reality
You could pick up the pieces yourself, and find an engine that you yourself can work with, and earn to actually develop a game like Midora was presented on Kickstarter. You know... like a real indie games developer.
Taking companies like this to court and winning the suits will set legal precedence. I mean the best option would be for our out of touch ancient law makers to just get on with applying physical goods laws to digital products, but hey we cant expect much from our overlords.
3300 people is a good size for a class action law suit for fraud. You were promised a product and it was not delivered, laws about digital products or not that is illegal.
The offer to help finish the game was nice but the required 70% was to high. I dont think I would have accepted it either.. 50/50 would have been a better offer.
But the lack of progress for this type of game is a bit crazy. Probably just more people with no know how trying to make a game then finding out that it is a bit more than copy and paste even with using Unity or RPGMaker ( which is what that game looks like ).
A user leaked the old demo to the public to anyone interested (will not be posting an unauthorized link but if you're interested in playing the free public demo, you can hunt for the unauthorized google drive URL in the link above which is apparently working)
The major reason im making a new post here is because of the fresh news Epic Minds intends to post this coming Sunday. Also I want to point out the new FB post had 9 posts recorded and as you
can count above 3 comments are missing. Additionally, the public
comments section on the left side has been disabled in 2016.
Currently very few backers are aware of any updated information from the
past livestream, as it was pulled down from public view, demo included.
This left backers dry of updates and were forced to remain clueless about the ongoing situation.
It is possible they may remedy the issue by uploading the vital information that was taken down late-2015.
For those who missed the last livestream in Nov-2015
ZAZZMANN stepped up as game creator and Myhre stepped down but remains director
Myhre & Zazz are the only two active developers working on the game
"We would need 150k to complete the game, to complete the game"
OP why dont you setup a class action law suite instead of just posting this on mmorpg.com. Wouldn it be more rewarding and make sense to lead a charge against an obvious failed and scamming kickstarter? I think its pretty obvious the guy scammed his backers and has been living off his backers for quite some time so why not actually press the issues besides news fodder here and get something done about it?
OP why dont you setup a class action law suite instead of just posting this on mmorpg.com. Wouldn it be more rewarding and make sense to lead a charge against an obvious failed and scamming kickstarter? I think its pretty obvious the guy scammed his backers and has been living off his backers for quite some time so why not actually press the issues besides news fodder here and get something done about it?
It really isn't worth going that far from my point of view as a non-backer. I don't feel anger to raise one against Epic Minds and the project creator Myhre. Another very real reason is that I'm a poor fello, who can only afford to write words... the power of words is strong especially when his real identity is online for all to see.
He is on the road to true failure indeed, but still has a chance to turn things around in 2016. It is the reason I've taken interest in this project, as it's not entirely a lost cause like Greed-Monger. I would suggest navigating to page #2 and read about Midora's past, and more importantly what they spent the crowdfunding money on.
If anything deserved a class action lawsuit it would be Greed Monger, and a couple of other blatant scams. I'm simply not quite ready to call this a deliberate scam. I was present for the livestream late-2015 and Con-artist, Scammer did not rub off from the honest words they used.
Sunday (Tomorrow) we will find out more important information. Will it be useful information to the public, and to backers who supported them? or will it be another message delaying information to a later time? or something else entirely!?
This is quite a lengthy post as such you will need to navigate to the link above to read the rest!
Over 70% of the new [Backers Comments] are saying they DO NOT want a refund.
Those who pledged a larger amount DO WANT a refund.
Except for this guy... who is willing to depart with a large donation
These guys refuse to depart with their smaller pledge and expect it back in full!
10% of others want the code, art, sounds open sourced and if they do not then... However... in the livestream back in Nov-2015 they claimed they have zero intentions on open sourcing as they plan to soldier on. While they are no longer considered con-artists, or scammers... everyone will surely remember the failure and they will very likely never be able to host another successful crowdfunding campaign again.
...AND SO THAT IS THE STORY CONCLUSION OF MIDORA AND THE INEXPERIENCED DEVELOPERS OVER AT EPIC MINDS.
Been fun reporting on this... time to find another story to follow!
Comments
So yeah... should probably consider changing this bit, eh? releasing Q1, 2016.
You know.. before the livestream and people head to your twitter to click any links.
3-hour pre-warning bump post!
Even if I got the converted time down wrong... today is the day we learn the fate of Epic Minds.
and today just so happens to be Friday... today is the day indeed.
I do have some predictions and have some questions I might toss into the livestream.
Although, It's difficult to gauge how things will play out. I've never seen these developers before the making of the thread, or any of their livestreams. You cannot find any of the previous livestream's online, as they were never recorded and uploaded onto YouTube.
However, If you've read my side story investigation on page (2) you would know that developers behind Midora actually do have some real skill/talent. Furthermore they have remained reserved and professional even within public postings and have never truly made any real missteps.
This is a story about a developer taking money, and failing to deliver on his promises.
Again, and again... and again... and again... and again... and again.
Leading backers to the point of giving up on Midora ever happening... but it's not too late for them to regain trust, and credibility.
Will they fall down and become the next GREEDMONGER! OR Will they RISE UP above the overwhelming NEGATIVITY and BAD PRESS!If you're here to witness Greedmonger legendary levels of failure then you might be disappointed.
What could happen?
- C: Epic Minds fucks things up by delaying things yet again breaking another promise which would spell out clear instant defeat for them. They have a history of "Whoops, sorry guys... things are happening next week." excuses. /Popcorn
And my favorite part which we all should be here for... the playable build which could contain a whole new level of failure... but really it's all about how well they do in the livestream, and how well the build presents itself... god the future backer comments... I CANT WAIT ANYMORE!They cannot afford to delay, this is truly the last chance they have to regain trust. I actually do believe they can turn things around, and regain backer trust and move forward... how will things play out?
If they manage to prove they've been working on something, and have something to show when they were actively developing the game before April-10th. Does that mean they get a free pass for the year of poor community relations, and dishonest behavior? Hell no. They are still responsible for delivering a resolution to the 3,359 backers.I'm 80% confident in my time conversion...
Should be happening soon.
Still no update from the official midora update in advance for backers
--5:30PM in Paris-- Livestream happening at 6:00PM
12PM EST
10AM MST
9AM PT
http://www.twitch.tv/MidoraGame
Update posted on twitter/facebook/kickstarter
Many people jumping in the stream (60+ users)
http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415
*He posted .com instead of .net* updated
Playable build has been posted in chat, build is windows only
43.1MB - Open to the backers and to the public
"Basically, yes." "Everything you see has been implemented in March" (2015)
...that is when development ceased.
---
10:24 Developer is reportedly looking for a new job
10:26 Stream delayed last week because of it. *No one was available*
-
10:27 Talking about the Paris attacks and nintendonuggets now
10:28 "We do not accept help"---well we do accept help... "
10:30 "That guy who said something about the paris attacks is an asshat"...
10:32 Talking about nintendonuggets now...
10:34 Talking about publishers...
*My Comments* "He's explaining things pretty well
10:35 Talking about Nintendonuggets again
10:36 Talking about publisher/investors "Nondisclosure agreements, we need to protect our IP"
Mhyre is the one talking while zazzman (coder) is the one answering questions in chat
10:38: Still talking about nintendonuggets and the article"Nintendo nuggets only did this for publicity"
"Midora cannot be made without the team we made"
10:27 - Talking about publishers (Deeper details)
"Talk about the ..... we made, and a few changes if we can secure funding soon, and where we are with publishers right now" Unfortunately we could not sight any publishes.... couldnt work for some reasons... pretty close to making a deal" Someone out their for us"
"We cannot give you a publisher name (Falls under non-discolosure agreement"
"Everything we do between companies is simply secret"
10:44: - Talking about companies and publishers some more
"Team17 would be a good fit but i cant do anything as long as i dont get a reply, no reply means they are probably not interested. Not going to harass them"
Team revolver we did get a reply, they like the game but they have to many games lined up for the future" They are not looking for more games" Just bad luck" Gives me hope at least"
10:47
"Ever since we ran out of money, it's been hell for us" I know I did a pretty bad job at informing you on kickstarter and everywher eelse, and that's mostly because i've spent most of my time finding publishers and stuff."
10:48 "(Twitter questions) how complete is the game (PDF supplied in the build) tech behind the game is complete" If we did get funding most of it would be spent on assets artwork, etc."
10:53 - Watchers dropping out
10:57 - Talking about Arenamode that was cancelled "I want to get everyone what they paid for"
11:01: MYHRE STEPPING DOWN AS DIRECTOR ZAZZMANN STEPPING UP
"I'm going to remain creative director" game development will be handled by ZAZZ" Hopefully should go well"11:02 "To fund the game, right now if we do get a second programmer, well we need a second programmer and..ya with just a second programmer to fund and complete the entire game, we would need 120k with a third pixel artist, but that's trickey to do because we need to find something skilled enough to work with the other two pixel artists.
We would need 150k to complete the game, to complete the game (to complete the code of the game with a second programmer we need 3 or 4-months) and the pixel artist would need 6 or 8 months to complete all the assets)
10:06
"to complete the entire game we need to test the game, and do everything else once the game is done
"we would need 8 to 10 months (Once we do get funding)"
and thats not to say 120k would be used....(fell behind on translations)"
Game is planned to be released sometime next year"
11:21 - Talking on and on... about stuff that's making me fall asleep... more excuses left and right.
11:25 - Question from chat: "Hey... hardball question "How much of the 73k (or rather 55k) from the kickstarter was spent on Midora's development? (Pixel-art/Backgrounds/sound/etc) approx? and which month did your funds run out? What was the last thing you bought before your funding hit $0?"""Wages were used for living costs"
"Making midora open source it's not about being greedy, and not about not caring for the backers, but is because we worked on midora so long with the intent we wanted to make this commercial... (missing dialogue) if we could maybe we would. We are not giving up on this"
11:31 - Talking about publishers again... close to making a deal.
11:36 - Epicmyhre & Zazz are the only two active developers working on the game
11:42.... yeah im pretty much done at this point... if these guys get a publisher... I'll be surprised and come back... but really they did manage to answer tons of questions and squash tons of past concerns... so perhaps with the honest livestream they will push into positive light..... need to try the playable build out to judge it a bit.
Without seeing proof I doubt that magical 70% tax actually happened to them like they said. Oh we didn't expect to pay taxs, it was just free money excuses. When you plan a budget you always take into account your going to have to pay taxs on that money and aquire the amount accordingly.
So yeah everything I heard from the live stream scream con to me.
But...this pretty much concludes things for my investigation and they answered every question really well both in video and chat. No real failures on the livestream and even after some intentional HEAT questions came in to cause slight irritation (Intentionally) and such. They dealt with the questions much better than I expected.
I would be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed with the outcome.
Backers might warm up to them since a playable build released... but i've played it and it felt like a joke... the pixel art is good and music too don't get me wrong... but it just didn't really impress me all too much personally.. $55,000 to make THAT from June-2014-March-2015 is a bit of a joke for an alpha build that has been in the making since June-2014...
and this is my opinion on Midora with what I see inside the public build.
if he manages to get a publisher well then... good for the backers!
He truly will need another 120/150k to complete the game.
Once again... I do believe they actually want to make the game.But anyway... the livestream verdict.
I don't believe he is a con-artist...
He admitted to failing at community relations.
I do believe he will be getting better at being transparent after this livestream and onwards.
He may have bought some time... but that doesn't mean people who supported him will keep quiet if no updates release in the future. He didn't offer a true resolution so this isn't entirely over
...basically said it will be another hellish couple of months as they still continue to seek a publisher in 2016.
Wish em luck on turning Midora into something more. It remains to be seen if he will find a publisher and will likely seep far into 2016.
11/28/2015 - FINAL UPDATE/VERDICT [Day after the livestream and 13-hours of rest]The story has concluded. He is not a con-artist Pg.03 11/27/2015 A livestream happened and all past concerns, and all questions were answered live (really well in my opinion)... but they struggled to give a complete resolution for the future. The biggest news that came out from the livestream is that Myhre stepped down as the top guy and ZAZZMAN (Senior-Developer) is taking his spot and will be leading the game forward.
Problem here is that the the guy who started the dream (Myhre) is simply not a Games Developer and is instead an idea's guy with money to buy the talent he needed. It really is that simple, he ran out of money and now he cannot afford talent to complete the game. Although I see him in a much brighter light now, compared to when the thread was made and I'm sure he will be even more transparent going forward. However... that does not mean the story cant take a turn for the worst in the future.
They won't be accomplishing anything without money, and cannot bring labor of love into the mix because they simply don't have the talent to push forward the games development with the game engine they use. These two actively care about midora, while the rest of the very talented developers are paid and are of course not interested in volunteer work. In my opinion if they built the game on RPG-MAKER XP/VX, they would probably be zooming through things and getting an actual game out.
The saddest part is that they would accomplish the same level of quality (Comparing the alpha build below to RPG-MAKER) because that's all I can really see with it... except RPG-MAKER is far less buggy.
Everything that is in the build below can be accomplished without coding if you use the right engine.
Best of luck to them, and thanks for reading!
Midora: Playable (Public) build
http://midora.net/getbuild
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks to everyone who followed along with the thread! This concludes my investigation on Epic Minds. Midora... now run by ZAZZMAN who is still a ghost IMO.
Here are links of interest for the next couple of days
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/epicmindsinc/midora-0/description
https://www.facebook.com/MidoraGame/
I'm glad @Tybost got that background info on the collaborators of this project. I suspect that no one worked this project 100%. They all had day jobs that paid the bills. And whatever time they could find above and beyond their day jobs, they spent on Midora.
As an EE/ME at a minimum you work a 10 hour day so you put in 50 hours a week. More likely, you'll be asked to work 7 days a week for 2 or 3 years. So again, 70 hours a week is not unheard of. As a CS I start the week with a 72 hour day. Come to work and don't leave for 3 days. Follow that with two 12 hour shifts, so I have time to recover. I'm not saying that the Epic Minds crew were working 96 hour work weeks, and managing to spare 8 hours a week on Midora.
Let's break down how the money was possibly divided. I think one post said that Epic Minds cut of the 73k was 50k(~70%). So let assume that is what we are working with. Lets also assume that are each paid $20 an hour. I don't want to go into real world pay scales and individual jobs. Lets also assume that the total team is 6 people. Assume that each member can put in 25 hours a week.
$50.000 / $20/hour = 2.500 hours
2.500 hours / 25 hours / week = 100 weeks (~ 2 years)
But notice there was no writer mentioned. The writer makes up the quest, lore and random dialog. Notice how none of that was seen in the demo.
Myhre is the project lead. The lead rarely does any work, they delegate and assign the work like a general contractor on a construction project. Finding further funding can be a full time job.
Take what you will from what i have said. A day job can take a lot out of someone. Making it difficult to put in time on extra work. I don't know what issues this team is dealing with. I wish all parties involved good luck. I hope for a mutually agreeable resolution to this project.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
For some reason the link directed to the .com (updating links)
http://midora.net/getbuild
It's very shocking to see how much progress was done since Janurary 28th 2014. The build everyone is seeing has so little in it (four levels) and nothing to do at all... but if you look at this thread here.
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=a10f4f395013228dd5f535b1b49a5981&topic=38433.0
Look at the images in the first post (if you dont want too then here is one below)
My guess is that they cut out a shit ton of levels for the sake of showing as little as possible... which is really stupid this late in the game... go guns blazing... but the current alpha build is honestly a flat out joke.
Backers are shocked at how much was completed.
It also looks like the livestream was removed from Twitch.
He's not a bad person (evil) like Greedmonger's (Appleton) who scammed the shit out of people... and it sounds like he really wants to find a publisher to get more money to complete the game. People backed someone who has little to no developer experience, (a money man, idea's guy). He was simply a game director and failed to direct the game to completion with $55,000. They could've easily reused assets (Everything in the build linked above) and expanded upon everything if they had the right people to do it.
Myhre wants to hire more pixel artists and such, but what this game needs is a level designer/world builder and more that can place shit down and expand with what they already have... which is seemingly little to nothing. It's sad when many kids who use RPGMAKER end up pumping out more to do and offer a better experience than what that alpha build offers. I hope they do find a publisher and manage to finish the game, they don't seem like bad people.... just ambitious and inexperienced.
Poor backers... $73,470 for that...
RIP these two fellos money
But god do I regret writing the following line.
Myhre answered past and some future concerns superbly. (In my mind I'm thinking) if these guys do find a publisher, they would probably turn things around. Although, while the stream was riddled with excuses, it happened to offer backers some very important details that they needed to know. He handled questions professionally, and tackled nearly every single question. This went on for well over an hour which then ended up in a very disappointing popcorn adventure for me and others.
I then closed my investigation since they mostly squashed the very reason my thread was made, together with a livestream and the promised shit alpha build. However, something has happened which has caused me to come back here to reopen the investigation, and discussions on Myhre and ZAZZMANN. Since the livestream ended it was only a mere day after the recorded livestream was pulled down, two days later the alpha build was then taken down.
Those who missed the stream are out of luck for now. Including the alpha build which was promised to backers in earlier updates.
Which was then later responded...
I find this deeply disturbing. A build was promised to backers in previous updates, and the build was certainly provided during the stream. So why take it down a few days later? and If backers didn't get to watch the livestream, or play the shit build. Then a gigantic shadow is STILL covering their eyes, and the thread becomes relevant again. Backers have been left in the dark for far too long, the livestream and the alpha build shed all the darkness, and brought Epic Minds back into the light.
However, it feels like right after my 'investigation' closed and once the spotlight/heat was turned down. They immediately pulled the stream and eventually the alpha build itself. My problem with this is that they are yet again stringing backers along who missed it. Additionally in the response above they want to talk about the upcomign stream, and yet again about plans moving forward when THEY ALREADY EXPLAINED THOSE PLANS IN THE LAST STREAM 11/27/2015 and quite well indeed.
I'm very confused right now.
Backers who missed the stream are too!
What a shame Epic Minds.
You had an ACE escape but instead played the JOKER.
What can I think of you now after playing such a card on your backers.
You're clearly hiding your shit build, because you know once they play it they won't be strung along with your bullshit. You were so honest in your stream, and the build offered everything that backers needed to escape your grasps. It is the very reason I took a neutral stance and decided you be more transparent.
You had transparency for 24-hours and then put your shadow masks back on
Your backers deserve better, they deserve true transparency.
1) The livestream had weird audio issues. We have tried to fix that in post before uploading it to YouTube, but no luck so far. I felt it was unfair for those who can't properly hear what I had to say, so I just removed it for now. We might do another livestream with different settings, or I might record myself answering each question again. Unsure at this point.
2) The same thing happened with the build. Some people reported corrupt files while some people reported the build not working at all. The build was removed to prevent any further harm or deception. It will be posted again in the next kickstarter update once we are certain everything works fine. Build errors are not surprising since we have never released anything before or tested it on that many machines.
Please don't jump to conclusions so quickly. There are a million things that can happen with a livestream and game files. I am still not sure why you would think I would try to hide anything when the stream did happen and the build was available.
1) Audio was fine in the livestream for a majority of the important questions. You don't have to do another informational livestream, simply make a new text update and fill out past questions/concerns, or a quick pre-recorded youtube video. Get on it sparky.
2) It's no surprise that some people wouldn't be able to run the game. Especially when it is restricted to windows only. Although most were able to download the alpha build and get it working (myself included) and while it was a buggy experience, and potentially harmful to Midora. It at minimum provided backers something, which is better than nothing.
Especially when you're being called a thief, scammer, etc.
You earned yourself time to find a solution, and gained credibility for being open and honest with your backers.
I'm sure your backers would be happy to see absolutely anything at this point. You could always open the build from your side and record some footage, and attach it alongside the pre/set questions in a new update. I could easily record some footage of the alpha build (still have it on my computer) and upload it for you to use if you lack any decent recording software. Take more confidence in the stuff you post for all to see!
You owe your backers something, right now you are once again in the same boat as before. You don't even have to provide the same alpha build, you could easily record some professional footage and share more than what you did in the livestream. Like... how much you spent for this artist to make these music tracks, which again is impressive sounding in my opinion. https://soundcloud.com/derris-kharlan/sets/ignis-aeternus
The first map where you walk around and attack the flower was something, and the bridge with the chest that had an animation was certainly something. Instead of a livestream how about a recorded stream that is professionally done, to ensure the audio quality is top-notch and upload it directly to youtube. Again you have many ways to go about this to reflect positive light on you and Midora.
You have stuff to show off to your backers, and could easily scratch up to the top and buy even more time whilst you seek a publisher. You've had too many past months of no content worthy updates since April-2015. (I've said this many times before, and right now you still have nothing up for backers to see) (likely only a handful) (less than 100) actually saw the livestream/pre-recorded-stream) and try the alpha build.
You need to have SOMETHING up 24/7. Although you definitely do not have a fun playable alpha build that is worthy of being seen by your backers. So I honestly don't blame you for taking it down since it probably didn't offer the experience you wanted to give your backers, and the livestream did have some hitches, so fair enough. Thanks for coming on here to explain in deeper detail.
I will continue talking about Midora and bringing the issue back to light, until you stop stringing backers along (which you succeeded in your 11/27/2015 livestream).
I'm curious as to when your next livestream or pre-recorded YouTube session is, hopefully not too far out.
You OWE your backers something, mate.
ANYTHING, and soon. Very Soon.
Wish you the best ...but again you need these important questions that need answered set in stone for backers.
Front page (PG.01) has been updated to include the recent events, updated the first post for new readers.
- This continues to be a
story about a developer who has been releasing lackluster updates, and
has been failing to meet backer expectations.
My biggest problem right now is that both playable build, and livestream were pulled down. Since then everything that was learned from the livestream has yet to be posted to any social media channels.It has been nearly a month since any official updates on the current status of the project. Unfortunate backers who missed the stream will continue to be left astray. I'm doubtful they will be able to find a publisher, as they will surely continue seeking one out in 2016, instead of bringing on volunteers and possibly jumping on a different more powerful engine, that is capable of pushing the game forward.
Above is the reality of the real status of Midora.
It takes more than just a guy with money and a dream to build a game, unfortunately you ran out of money and now your stuck in the mud unable to move forward. Creating a game is a labor of love, and you have to have the talent to build games, and everlasting passion, and drive to work on a game day in, day out.
Reality Check: Epic Minds was lead by an idea's guy who had money to buy talent, and had a dream of building a video game. It has a dedicated programmer who is now leading the entire project. They may have more talent behind the scenes, but nothing notable for game development. The very real problem here is they do not have the drive, or the up-forward talent to push the game in the right direction.
A real plan since your chances of finding a publisher is just... unrealistic at this point with your reputation ripping apart (and slowly getting worse with each passing week). It won't be worth waiting for a publisher as your boat is sinking, and your surroundings become increasingly hostile and full of danger in the night. My only thoughts are: Volunteers? An engine that doesn't suck perhaps?
Money does not build a game. Passion for game development and true talent does. A boat load of money to buy talent works too... but only when you have someone to direct the game towards success. You ran out of money, and you failed to push the game in any real direction. I really hate feeling like an asshat but it needs to be said. You really didn't get far with $70,000 and without a publisher I don't see you going anywhere. /Reality
You could pick up the pieces yourself, and find an engine that you yourself can work with, and earn to actually develop a game like Midora was presented on Kickstarter. You know... like a real indie games developer.
3300 people is a good size for a class action law suit for fraud. You were promised a product and it was not delivered, laws about digital products or not that is illegal.
But the lack of progress for this type of game is a bit crazy. Probably just more people with no know how trying to make a game then finding out that it is a bit more than copy and paste even with using Unity or RPGMaker ( which is what that game looks like ).
Tons of messages have been posted on the kickstarter all comments section since the last post
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/epicmindsinc/midora-0/comments
A user leaked the old demo to the public to anyone interested (will not be posting an unauthorized link but if you're interested in playing the free public demo, you can hunt for the unauthorized google drive URL in the link above which is apparently working)
The major reason im making a new post here is because of the fresh news Epic Minds intends to post this coming Sunday. Also I want to point out the new FB post had 9 posts recorded and as you can count above 3 comments are missing. Additionally, the public comments section on the left side has been disabled in 2016.
Currently very few backers are aware of any updated information from the past livestream, as it was pulled down from public view, demo included. This left backers dry of updates and were forced to remain clueless about the ongoing situation.
It is possible they may remedy the issue by uploading the vital information that was taken down late-2015.
For those who missed the last livestream in Nov-2015
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
He is on the road to true failure indeed, but still has a chance to turn things around in 2016. It is the reason I've taken interest in this project, as it's not entirely a lost cause like Greed-Monger. I would suggest navigating to page #2 and read about Midora's past, and more importantly what they spent the crowdfunding money on.
If anything deserved a class action lawsuit it would be Greed Monger, and a couple of other blatant scams. I'm simply not quite ready to call this a deliberate scam. I was present for the livestream late-2015 and Con-artist, Scammer did not rub off from the honest words they used.
Sunday (Tomorrow) we will find out more important information. Will it be useful information to the public, and to backers who supported them? or will it be another message delaying information to a later time? or something else entirely!?
STAY TUNED FOR THE NEXT EXCITING EPISODE OF...
MAJOR UPDATE: REFUNDS PROMISED TO BACKERS IN FULL!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/epicmindsinc/midora-0/posts/1463740This is quite a lengthy post as such you will need to navigate to the link above to read the rest!
Over 70% of the new [Backers Comments] are saying they DO NOT want a refund.
Those who pledged a larger amount DO WANT a refund.
Except for this guy... who is willing to depart with a large donation
These guys refuse to depart with their smaller pledge and expect it back in full!
10% of others want the code, art, sounds open sourced and if they do not then...
However... in the livestream back in Nov-2015 they claimed they have zero intentions on open sourcing as they plan to soldier on.
While they are no longer considered con-artists, or scammers... everyone will surely remember the failure and they will very likely never be able to host another successful crowdfunding campaign again.
...AND SO THAT IS THE STORY CONCLUSION OF MIDORA AND THE INEXPERIENCED DEVELOPERS OVER AT EPIC MINDS.
Been fun reporting on this... time to find another story to follow!