Do you know what very niche games are called? Closed games.
>>EQ is niche. Still running.
AC is niche. Still exists.
UO is nicke. Still exists.
Eve is niche. Still going.
These games started this industry.
Niche means something created for a specific audience with specific interests and has proven to be the only games that keep long term fans. Just as many games that tried to target large markets, crossing many genres and platforms have failed as any niche game.
First of all, this is a niche game. They are not going for the normal, 2 realm, mirrored classes with a rush towards clearing content to get the uber gear drops. That is obviously what you want. Which is fine btw.
And a lot of folks are truely naive about the no auction house statement. If it will be anything like DAoC, then yes, there will be no auction house. However, crafters and gatherers will have a very viable option to sell their goods. If they want it, they buy it. No auction. Pretty simple really.
Saying the game is being made without thinking about their customers is....to be blunt, about the dumbest thing that could be said about this game. Sorry you are not part of the niche. Peace.
Ah, good old "niche" mantra...
Do you know what very niche games are called? Closed games.
I would say it only equals closed games if the developers/producers didn't plan for niche profits.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
EDIT: God this site has the worst commenting system...
You mean like this?
Anyway, its a niche game and its meant to be. Like Tamanous said, AC is niche, UO is niche, EVE is niche. They are still going after 15 years in some cases. Mark Jacobs said they dont need to have a million subscribers to be successful.
>>EQ is niche. Still running.
AC is niche. Still exists.
UO is nicke. Still exists.
Eve is niche. Still going.
These games started this industry.
Niche means something created for a specific audience with specific interests and has proven to be the only games that keep long term fans. Just as many games that tried to target large markets, crossing many genres and platforms have failed as any niche game.
Your argument is both false and ignorant of fact.
Apart from EVE, neither of those games were "niche" when they launched. The cost of game development dramatically increased since. The market size dramatically increased since. The audience dramatically changed since. Neither what happed "back then" is relevant to today market. Niche does not meam what you think it means. etc..
Yeah, tell us more about being false and ignorant....
Anyway, its a niche game and its meant to be. Like Tamanous said, AC is niche, UO is niche, EVE is niche. They are still going after 15 years in some cases. Mark Jacobs said they dont need to have a million subscribers to be successful.
If UO got same subscriber numbers they have now 1 month after launch, it is very likely it would not be running 15 years later and neither we would see the new crop of MMOs being made, or at least much later.
Lastly, did you ever think why big studios go for million subs and large budgets? Once you know the answer, you will understand my posts...
Big studios go for million+ subs because they absolutely have to do so in order to make a profit w/ their game models. They spend a lot more money and have higher staffing on their games because they go for low risk/high cost model. However, going that route means they need more people playing in order to get a good return on their investment. This game probably has about 1/20 of the budget of those games, has a smaller team and could be successful w/ 50-100k subs or wildly successful w/ 250k subs. If they get 50k subs at lets say at $10/sub, that's probably going to be pretty close to the entire cost of the game returned in one year. You have to define what success means to the team which is based on their risk management/costs. Lower costs means lower amount of people need to be playing in order for them to be profitable, even highly profitable.
God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.
They spend a lot more money and have higher staffing on their games because they go for low risk/high cost model.
On one hand you acknowledge lower risk to high budget projects, but seem to be forgetting to increase the risk on the opposite end of the scale.
In a sense then, and given inherited difficulty of low budget projects, you could say that it is "easier" to aim for 1M players than it is to aim for 50k players.
The thing is, CU isn't all that much of different game nor MMO players in general are as rigid, narrow minded as folk on these boards, thus they will be competing with all AAA budget games that has many years of post-release development under their belt.
This is one of the biggest factors that drives MMO development costs so high these days - competition. To create a competitive product simply cost a lot because players expect a lot. Also, nice wrapping is as important as what is inside. People won't play the game only because of it's features, they want the bells and whistles too.
It is easier to build a large budget project and aim for 1M+ subscribers. However, the prerequisite to do that requires having a large budget and usually a large brand name. The reason for this is they're trying to compete with other games which are 1M+ subscriber games.
I disagree really w/ the competition and differences between other MMOs, they're building this game to avoid competing with the AAA titles. There are a lot of factors here which will drive off casual gamers, will drive off PvE gamers, people who enjoy cash shops, F2P games, etc. However, it'll attract people who want to play RvR, enjoy crafting, creating buildings, trading, socializing and exploring. Those people are a fraction of the market but still a substantial enough number to make it profitable.
I think you're type-casting MMOs and MMO players because people enjoy different games for different reasons. People can build a MMO designed for people who enjoy one particular aspect of an MMO and be successful. They can build an MMO that doesn't appeal to a broad market but can still be successful. There are tons of smaller budget MMOs out there which have been and are successful. There aren't just 5-10 MMOs on the market so either the entire market is just throwing away money because they decided they have too much of it or there is a large number of niche games that enjoy some success. It's a lesser amount of success than AAA games but still profitable.
God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.
I don’t know, but since Camelot Unchained™ is not a game that needs to reach even 1M subs in order to be successful, I’m not losing any sleep over it.
Subs being the operative word.
Obviously going to appeal to the minuscule segment of MMO players who want a sub based niche game. But once they look around and see an empty server it might sink in.
"Niche" games are great if you have a few thousand people with multiple accounts (like EVE) but that game is a true time sink and where time does matter and where guys who do have 3-5-8 years of time invested in ranking up skills and what not are not likely to leave. A lot harder to get someone to invest in another niche game especially in this day and age.
People who still play MMOs will play less than great games if a lot of people play them. They wont play an 'awesome' game if no one is playing it. Now some can say that statement is an oxymoron, it isnt. Great is subjective and some games that werent that good could be very good or even great now but they cant capture enough people back to them simultaneously to make them worth playing.
Thats why release (and in a lot of cases now alpha and betas) are the best time to play some games because its when they have the most people. But its been that way now for over ten years.
There are tons of smaller budget MMOs out there which have been and are successful.
Oh, are there? Can you list some of this "tons" that would be the size of around 50k subscribers CU is aiming for?
You are proposing very odd way of thinking there.
CU is using very much standardized fantasy MMO layout. Then, they are adding some unpopular features that are detrimental to players - PVP centric, lack of common features, subscription, etc., and if there are still some players left that endured through all your effort to drive them off, you call it a day and your target audience.
That is not a "different" game, it is not a niche game either. It is just a poor design and business.
Then again, you aren't consistent with your thoughts - if large budget games were competing with other large budget games only, they wouldn't be so low risk ventures. They are low risk because they have much greater "pull", they make easy-to-win competition for games like CU.
There are tons of smaller budget MMOs out there which have been and are successful.
Oh, are there? Can you list some of this "tons" that would be the size of around 50k subscribers CU is aiming for?
You are proposing very odd way of thinking there.
CU is using very much standardized fantasy MMO layout. Then, they are adding some unpopular features that are detrimental to players - PVP centric, lack of common features, subscription, etc., and if there are still some players left that endured through all your effort to drive them off, you call it a day and your target audience.
That is not a "different" game, it is not a niche game either. It is just a poor design and business.
Then again, you aren't consistent with your thoughts - if large budget games were competing with other large budget games only, they wouldn't be so low risk ventures. They are low risk because they have much greater "pull", they make easy-to-win competition for games like CU.
You really are looking at this "glass half full".
Those unpopular features are the reasons that certain people will play the game.
pvp centric? Check subscription? Check Lack of common features? Like pve? There are players who NEVER want to pve. Heck, I remember once in lineage 2, while we were getting ready for a raid, some of the players were complaining and saying "all I want to do is pvp why do I have to pve?"
The only concern is that it was said they weren't looking for 1 million players (which makes perfect sense). But, how many players are they looking for?
If they made a good game would they get 90k? Can they support the game with that amount? I've seen 250 - 300k players associated with higher budgeted games like The Secret World.
If they had 90k players playing that would be a decent amount of money. how about 30k? Still a decent amount of money per year provided it's a small team and they keep the overhead low.
In any case, one person's poison is another person's Ambrosia. There are people who want this type of game. Heck, there are people willing to play old style games as long as the graphics are updated a bit.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I remember very similar excitement when Mark presented the Warhammer crafting system , such great presentaion and ideas ... Then fell flat on his face and gave us one of, if not the worst crafting system ever in a AAA mmo..........
I never said tons had 50k subscribers because a lot of companies don't have a subscription based model, I said tons are successful. Look through the list of MMOs on this site and how many of them are still active. Most of those games don't have mass market appeal by any stretch of the imagination but some people still enjoy them and play them.
People have different tastes and want different things in games and sometimes they want them at different times. People enjoy different games for different reasons. People who want to play a PvP centric game are not going to be turned off by a PvP centric game. People who want everything to be able to be earned in-game on a level playing field and not through a cash shop are not going to be turned off by a subscription model. You may feel it's poor design because you don't like those features but you're not everyone. You may be in line w/ the majority but not everything is built for mass market appeal.
That's the reason I say it's a niche game because it's not trying to draw in a broad audience but a very small sub-group of the market. Niche means that they aren't competing with the mass market. AAA games are aimed at the mass market and try to draw in as many customers as possible. Niche games try to find a small group who enjoy a particular kind of game. You personally don't like those features and think they will turn a lot of people off and you're absolutely right. However, that's the point of making them because people are different. It will not be popular with most people but will draw in a different smaller section of the market that do enjoy them.
God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.
I never said tons had 50k subscribers because a lot of companies don't have a subscription based model, I said tons are successful.
And I never implied you said such sort of thing.
I asked you to pick some successful MMOs from this "ton" you speak of that are around same size(revenue) of 50k subs. Considering it is the same revenue CU is aiming for, it is very relevant question.
Again, niche does not mean aiming low. CU is not a niche game. It is the same MMO concept any mainstream title is using, they just put more emphasis on RVR. That does not make it a niche product thoguh.
Examples of niche MMOs: EVE Online, Warframe, Marvel Heroes, MOBAs - although they developed their own market. Those are very distinct products, not just different "flavour".
Saying it is a poor design and business has nothing to do with personal preferences - when you aim for target revenue, you won't get there by filling the game with unpopular features.
Well, firstly, you did imply that I said that. Secondly, it solely does have to do w/ personal preferences since opinions are subjective. You may think they're poor but people may disagree. That doesn't make you right and them wrong or vice versa. Thirdly, you mentioned Eve Online which does have a subscription based model and was a successful game despite that wildly unpopular feature that drove everyone from the game (in your words). Also, Marvel Online, how much more generic fantasy can you get than a superhero game. Lastly, MOBAs aren't MMOs because MMO means massively multiplayer and not 10 people in a match together. If you're going to troll, actually include good points :P
God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.
Can you list some of this "tons" that would be the size of around 50k subscribers CU is aiming for? Can you list some of this tons of 50k subscriber games?
I said the former, you implied the latter. Do you understand the difference?
I see you run out of arguments and just trying to bring it on personal level so..have a good one.
There are tons of smaller budget MMOs out there which have been and are successful.
Oh, are there? Can you list some of this "tons" that would be the size of around 50k subscribers CU is aiming for?
You are proposing very odd way of thinking there.
CU is using very much standardized fantasy MMO layout. Then, they are adding some unpopular features that are detrimental to players - PVP centric, lack of common features, subscription, etc., and if there are still some players left that endured through all your effort to drive them off, you call it a day and your target audience.
That is not a "different" game, it is not a niche game either. It is just a poor design and business.
Then again, you aren't consistent with your thoughts - if large budget games were competing with other large budget games only, they wouldn't be so low risk ventures. They are low risk because they have much greater "pull", they make easy-to-win competition for games like CU.
You really are looking at this "glass half full".
Those unpopular features are the reasons that certain people will play the game.
pvp centric? Check subscription? Check Lack of common features? Like pve? There are players who NEVER want to pve. Heck, I remember once in lineage 2, while we were getting ready for a raid, some of the players were complaining and saying "all I want to do is pvp why do I have to pve?"
The only concern is that it was said they weren't looking for 1 million players (which makes perfect sense). But, how many players are they looking for?
If they made a good game would they get 90k? Can they support the game with that amount? I've seen 250 - 300k players associated with higher budgeted games like The Secret World.
If they had 90k players playing that would be a decent amount of money. how about 30k? Still a decent amount of money per year provided it's a small team and they keep the overhead low.
In any case, one person's poison is another person's Ambrosia. There are people who want this type of game. Heck, there are people willing to play old style games as long as the graphics are updated a bit.
@Sovrath To add to that, Mark defined CU success as "30-50K subs" - which is likely extremely pessimistic, "just in case" assessment.
Namely, he said that before Kickstarter (Feb 2013) so he couldn't possibly know that CU will approach it's lower limit of "success" as early as a year and a half (IMO) before launch.
Well, the best datapoint is http://mmodata.blogspot.com/
There was no personal attack intended, it just seems to be an accurate description.
God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.
But it's a much tougher market now than ever before.
There is direct competition too. It's not like this is the only PvP (or RvR) game out there.
To survive it will have to be really well designed and work as designed. Can MJ make this happen?
Not to mention that 'hardcore' PvPers usually aren't that hardcore and will often un-sub when things don't go the way they imagine (i.e. they win all the time).
That 30-50k figure will mean long term subscribers too. Not just the 'honeymooners' who last through the open Beta and first 1-2 months post release.
With this tempo, CU will have at least 40-50k backers already before launch, and if history taught us anything - sales will easily be in hundreds of thousands.
Now, in order to make that low estimate above more than a distant memory from some forgotten interview in February 2013, initial retention rate would have to be much worse even than, say, Warhammer's (and that one was basically born dead and left to rot slowly by EA, similar relation between CSE and CU is...well, unlikely).
Sounds interesting I am looking forward to Beta 1, what most attracted me to the game is it is going to be very different, and the RVRVR, I am sick and bored to death of games with small scale que up mini games yuk. I play ESO and I like it the pvp is fun when the lag monster is not on the lose, but hate how they let you flip flop factions in the same campaigns, makes for no faction or realm pride at all.
I like to craft in games will have to play this to really get a grasp on it.
Today, the folks behind Camelot Unchained at CityState Entertainment unveiled their master plan for crafting in their upcoming MMORPG. Ahead of that, Mark Jacobs was kind enough to share said plan with MMORPG.com, and we went right back at him with over a dozen questions about the systems therein. Read on for all of MJ’s thoughts!
For a guy who just loves crafting in MMORPGs this game is one of the games that I am looking forward the most.
It has been a while since we had a indebt crafting mmorpg- I know FF ARR is great and you have EVE and a few others, but this game really will make a difference to the way I look at mmos. I cant wait to level my crafter and runn around reparing siege weapons and stuff I am just a bit concerned in reagrds to the no AH option and how this will work.
Comments
Ah, good old "niche" mantra...
Do you know what very niche games are called? Closed games.
>>EQ is niche. Still running.
AC is niche. Still exists.
UO is nicke. Still exists.
Eve is niche. Still going.
These games started this industry.
Niche means something created for a specific audience with specific interests and has proven to be the only games that keep long term fans. Just as many games that tried to target large markets, crossing many genres and platforms have failed as any niche game.
Your argument is both false and ignorant of fact.
You stay sassy!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Anyway, its a niche game and its meant to be. Like Tamanous said, AC is niche, UO is niche, EVE is niche. They are still going after 15 years in some cases. Mark Jacobs said they dont need to have a million subscribers to be successful.
The cost of game development dramatically increased since.
The market size dramatically increased since.
The audience dramatically changed since.
Neither what happed "back then" is relevant to today market.
Niche does not meam what you think it means.
etc..
Yeah, tell us more about being false and ignorant....
Lastly, did you ever think why big studios go for million subs and large budgets? Once you know the answer, you will understand my posts...
God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.
In a sense then, and given inherited difficulty of low budget projects, you could say that it is "easier" to aim for 1M players than it is to aim for 50k players.
The thing is, CU isn't all that much of different game nor MMO players in general are as rigid, narrow minded as folk on these boards, thus they will be competing with all AAA budget games that has many years of post-release development under their belt.
This is one of the biggest factors that drives MMO development costs so high these days - competition. To create a competitive product simply cost a lot because players expect a lot. Also, nice wrapping is as important as what is inside. People won't play the game only because of it's features, they want the bells and whistles too.
I disagree really w/ the competition and differences between other MMOs, they're building this game to avoid competing with the AAA titles. There are a lot of factors here which will drive off casual gamers, will drive off PvE gamers, people who enjoy cash shops, F2P games, etc. However, it'll attract people who want to play RvR, enjoy crafting, creating buildings, trading, socializing and exploring. Those people are a fraction of the market but still a substantial enough number to make it profitable.
I think you're type-casting MMOs and MMO players because people enjoy different games for different reasons. People can build a MMO designed for people who enjoy one particular aspect of an MMO and be successful. They can build an MMO that doesn't appeal to a broad market but can still be successful. There are tons of smaller budget MMOs out there which have been and are successful. There aren't just 5-10 MMOs on the market so either the entire market is just throwing away money because they decided they have too much of it or there is a large number of niche games that enjoy some success. It's a lesser amount of success than AAA games but still profitable.
God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.
I don’t know, but since Camelot Unchained™ is not a game that needs to reach even 1M subs in order to be successful, I’m not losing any sleep over it.
Subs being the operative word.
Obviously going to appeal to the minuscule segment of MMO players who want a sub based niche game. But once they look around and see an empty server it might sink in.
"Niche" games are great if you have a few thousand people with multiple accounts (like EVE) but that game is a true time sink and where time does matter and where guys who do have 3-5-8 years of time invested in ranking up skills and what not are not likely to leave. A lot harder to get someone to invest in another niche game especially in this day and age.
People who still play MMOs will play less than great games if a lot of people play them. They wont play an 'awesome' game if no one is playing it. Now some can say that statement is an oxymoron, it isnt. Great is subjective and some games that werent that good could be very good or even great now but they cant capture enough people back to them simultaneously to make them worth playing.
Thats why release (and in a lot of cases now alpha and betas) are the best time to play some games because its when they have the most people. But its been that way now for over ten years.
You are proposing very odd way of thinking there.
CU is using very much standardized fantasy MMO layout. Then, they are adding some unpopular features that are detrimental to players - PVP centric, lack of common features, subscription, etc., and if there are still some players left that endured through all your effort to drive them off, you call it a day and your target audience.
That is not a "different" game, it is not a niche game either. It is just a poor design and business.
Then again, you aren't consistent with your thoughts - if large budget games were competing with other large budget games only, they wouldn't be so low risk ventures. They are low risk because they have much greater "pull", they make easy-to-win competition for games like CU.
Those unpopular features are the reasons that certain people will play the game.
pvp centric? Check
subscription? Check
Lack of common features? Like pve? There are players who NEVER want to pve. Heck, I remember once in lineage 2, while we were getting ready for a raid, some of the players were complaining and saying "all I want to do is pvp why do I have to pve?"
The only concern is that it was said they weren't looking for 1 million players (which makes perfect sense).
But, how many players are they looking for?
If they made a good game would they get 90k? Can they support the game with that amount? I've seen 250 - 300k players associated with higher budgeted games like The Secret World.
If they had 90k players playing that would be a decent amount of money. how about 30k? Still a decent amount of money per year provided it's a small team and they keep the overhead low.
In any case, one person's poison is another person's Ambrosia. There are people who want this type of game. Heck, there are people willing to play old style games as long as the graphics are updated a bit.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
heres a trip down memory lane ...
God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.
I asked you to pick some successful MMOs from this "ton" you speak of that are around same size(revenue) of 50k subs. Considering it is the same revenue CU is aiming for, it is very relevant question.
Again, niche does not mean aiming low. CU is not a niche game. It is the same MMO concept any mainstream title is using, they just put more emphasis on RVR. That does not make it a niche product thoguh.
Examples of niche MMOs: EVE Online, Warframe, Marvel Heroes, MOBAs - although they developed their own market. Those are very distinct products, not just different "flavour".
Saying it is a poor design and business has nothing to do with personal preferences - when you aim for target revenue, you won't get there by filling the game with unpopular features.
God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.
Can you list some of this tons of 50k subscriber games?
I said the former, you implied the latter. Do you understand the difference?
I see you run out of arguments and just trying to bring it on personal level so..have a good one.
Namely, he said that before Kickstarter (Feb 2013) so he couldn't possibly know that CU will approach it's
lower limit of "success" as early as a year and a half (IMO) before launch.
There was no personal attack intended, it just seems to be an accurate description.
God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.
But it's a much tougher market now than ever before.
There is direct competition too. It's not like this is the only PvP (or RvR) game out there.
To survive it will have to be really well designed and work as designed. Can MJ make this happen?
Not to mention that 'hardcore' PvPers usually aren't that hardcore and will often un-sub when things don't go the way they imagine (i.e. they win all the time).
That 30-50k figure will mean long term subscribers too. Not just the 'honeymooners' who last through the open Beta and first 1-2 months post release.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Now, in order to make that low estimate above more than a distant memory from some forgotten interview in February 2013, initial retention rate would have to be much worse even than, say, Warhammer's (and that one was basically born dead and left to rot slowly by EA, similar relation between CSE and CU is...well, unlikely).
I think they have made good progress in developing their engine, hope this will transfer into good playable design.
Redsalt... the other salt.
I like to craft in games will have to play this to really get a grasp on it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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It has been a while since we had a indebt crafting mmorpg- I know FF ARR is great and you have EVE and a few others, but this game really will make a difference to the way I look at mmos. I cant wait to level my crafter and runn around reparing siege weapons and stuff
mmorpg junkie since 1999