CU is using very much standardized fantasy MMO layout. Then, they are adding some unpopular features that are detrimental to players - PVP centric, lack of common features, subscription, etc., and if there are still some players left that endured through all your effort to drive them off, you call it a day and your target audience.
That is not a "different" game, it is not a niche game either. It is just a poor design and business.
You are totally mistaken. They are building the game from the ground up to be a pure RvRvR experience with every system designed around that goal. The game is set in a dark fantasy world, but the setting is not the game itself.
I don't know of any other game that has taken the same approach. It will be quite exciting to see how it all comes together.
Mouloxtos85 said:
I like that both the developers of Camelot Unchained and Crowfall don't aim to make the next ''wow'' and definetely don't aim for the greatest subscription numbers. They want to make good original mmos in order to revive the mmo - genre. Hurrah!
It is called NO CHOICE.
They do not have the budget or team to make another Wow ,simple as that.This is why most low budget games aim for pvp,it is a hundred miles easier and cheaper to do than lots of PVE systems.
Having said that,there are lots of ways to cut corners and i am ok with that as long as you make up for it with good systems elsewhere.One perfect example i see a LOT of is games using 2D assets,buildings with no insides,that cuts out a megaton of added work.
I feel crafting is often too quickly tossed into a game.The excuses are usually lame ,like nobody cares abot ucrafting.Well if yo ukeep tossing out the exact same formula as WOW each and every time,then no likely they won't be interested.That is why as a good developer you need to be creative and come up with a game where players WANT to play the whole entire ROLE PLAYING experience and not just pvp.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Since people don't like to here about THAT other game,i 'll simply use an example of good ideas to attract people to crafting.
3 keywords >>>RARE,Hidden,Secret
If you create a crafting system that has to be discovered it attracts people to find out what lays around the corner.I absolutely loved the crafting system in another game because if you put in enough effort you could discover a road to riches and be part of a unique crowd of crafters that could sell wares that nobody else was and it was NOT just about spending more time and hours.
Another idea would be combination of mats.It would be easy to assume,get the best rare of everything and end result is the best crafted item.Well what if that were not true,what if some player decided to test different combinations and came up with perhaps a better food for Accuracy or a better food for defense etc etc.
Then you could add in RARE by having players to seek out and actually interact with npc's to find pieces and puzzles to rare crafts.This does not mean npc's with a yellow marker over their head,that kind of nonsense bothers me a lot.Perhaps there is a hidden parchment under some tree in some secluded area with a piece of the puzzle,you know have players actually explore the world for something OTHER than "step here and you get FREE xp",again that sort of nonsense bothers me.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Mark was "all about crafting" in WAR too, and that system was in its best Oook. Watching the development of Online games these days is just a painful process. its the same "were going to do this and that speeches", the exact same subjects&categories in the forums,and then the loong 2-4 year wait for a game to come out (also cross your fingers it does not get canceled)
Niche means something created for a specific audience with specific interests and has proven to be the only games that keep long term fans. Just as many games that tried to target large markets, crossing many genres and platforms have failed as any niche game.
Your argument is both false and ignorant of fact.
Apart from EVE, neither of those games were "niche" when they launched.
The cost of game development dramatically increased since.
The market size dramatically increased since.
The audience dramatically changed since.
Neither what happed "back then" is relevant to today market.
Niche does not meam what you think it means.
etc..
Yeah, tell us more about being false and ignorant....
Then those old mmorpgs launched they were the definition of niche (the indie mmorpgs in development now trying to emulate and evolve them are called niche so how could this mean the originals aren't niche?). The only thing that matters, even today, is that an audience exists for a specific gaming concept. You have to prove to us that this audience does not exist. You have no other argument outside of that and merely are throwing your own opinion around.
CU is being built for a specific audience. If you are not within that audience ... don't play. Whether it gains an audience or not is entirely outside of your personal opinion and knee-jerk, automatic rage reply.
Do players want a successor to DAoC? Yes ... every player who ever enjoyed DAoC. There are a lot.
Do players want a complex crafting system based off of SWG style crafting and economy? Yes ... every player who enjoyed crafting in SWG. There are a lot.
Does CU wish to attract any player who has zero interest in this concept? Nope ... but hopes to make a game that is fun and that people may wish to try something outside of their comfort zone. The game could not exist if forced to attract everyone and that is the point.
I fail to understand the arguments here by many. They complain about all mmos being the same yet further complain when mmos trying something entirely new or bring back concepts lost yet loved by many.
Don't like it? Don't play it. CU is RvR but it's fundamental game design is built around community building. That is it's difference and only exists by attracting players who share a similar interest. This means that ANYONE spouting disinterest is not wanted nor wished to be heard from.
I know this is a hard concept for many to understand for this "dramatically changed" audience you mention. This is where you are wrong. Audiences always change. This is generational ... but this is cyclical. Always has been and always will be. CU wants to attract an audience that has already existed, still exists and wished this audience to grow. What is your issue with not wanting this to be allowed? What scares you so badly that you must disallow the very attempt?
I dont think I would listen to anything Mark Jacobs says about crafting. I remember all the hype he was creating with crafting in WAR.. About how he was personally working on it and that it was going to be the best thing ever.. It turned out to be quite possibly the worst crafting experience I have ever took part in.
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Well this game is Primmed to be commercialized when it goes F2P.
Not going to happen. I promised that to potential Backers during the KS. What I told them was that I'd shut the game down first. And since I have zero interest in running a FTP MMORPG, well, it's not going to happen.
I appreciate that Mark absorbs these questions like a main tank. Not a single one was dodged or BSed.
Yeah, one thing I definitely believe is that succeed or fail MJ has been straight with the public every step of the way.
Thanks, much appreciated. It hasn't been easy at times but as per above, I promised I'd tell our Backers the truth, good/bad or indifferent, even when it was highly personal (like my wife's breast cancer).
Mouloxtos85 said:
I like that both the developers of Camelot Unchained and Crowfall don't aim to make the next ''wow'' and definetely don't aim for the greatest subscription numbers. They want to make good original mmos in order to revive the mmo - genre. Hurrah!
It is called NO CHOICE.
They do not have the budget or team to make another Wow ,simple as that.This is why most low budget games aim for pvp,it is a hundred miles easier and cheaper to do than lots of PVE systems.
Having said that,there are lots of ways to cut corners and i am ok with that as long as you make up for it with good systems elsewhere.One perfect example i see a LOT of is games using 2D assets,buildings with no insides,that cuts out a megaton of added work.
I feel crafting is often too quickly tossed into a game.The excuses are usually lame ,like nobody cares abot ucrafting.Well if yo ukeep tossing out the exact same formula as WOW each and every time,then no likely they won't be interested.That is why as a good developer you need to be creative and come up with a game where players WANT to play the whole entire ROLE PLAYING experience and not just pvp.
I agree. That's why I'm spending so much of my time on crafting now and not just handing the vision doc over to somebody else and hoping for the best. I need to make the time to design the system, not just do the "I have a vision thing". I'm not going to repeat the fiasco of WAR's crafting. FYI, WAR's crafting system's failure was not the fault of the designer who took my doc and ran with it. He wasn't given enough time and resources and he did the best he could.
Mark was "all about crafting" in WAR too, and that system was in its best Oook. Watching the development of Online games these days is just a painful process. its the same "were going to do this and that speeches", the exact same subjects&categories in the forums,and then the loong 2-4 year wait for a game to come out (also cross your fingers it does not get canceled)
Yep, I couldn't agree more with what you said. If I hadn't talked so boldly about the concepts, it would have gone down as an okay system. Not horrible, not great but because I talked about it so much, and because the result was not great, it looked worse by comparison. As per above, not repeating that mistake.
Have they talked much about power levels via items and/or leveling up etc.?
Really quite the antithesis to OWPvP and RvR is a grind-heavy power progression with big deltas between low and high end.
Yep. SInce we are a horizontal-based (mostly) progression system, all bonuses, whether they come from stats, items, abilities, etc. have to conform to the same principle. We've been very clear that a veteran can't one-shot (or two) a newbie. So, Ben and I have to ensure that no matter what we add to the power curve, it must stay within those boundaries.
I dont think I would listen to anything Mark Jacobs says about crafting. I remember all the hype he was creating with crafting in WAR.. About how he was personally working on it and that it was going to be the best thing ever.. It turned out to be quite possibly the worst crafting experience I have ever took part in.
Can't blame you one bit. I'd like to say two things in my own defense is that I said a lot of things about Dark Age/WAR and our other games, and so many of them came out just fine. The other is that in concept, the crafting system was great but like many games/studios, what could have been great, doesn't always end up that way, for a variety of reasons. Nobody's perfect and I have never, will never lie to Backers or potential players. Sometimes though, well, bad things happen.
What I'd like to ask of you is that you wait to see how our crafting system works out and then decide that maybe things were a bit more complicated than just "Mark said/hyped this and all we got was..." But if not, no worries. Thanks for taking the time to post here.
Thanks all. BBL if there are any questions while I'm lurking.
CU is filled with good ideas and ideals, but I just cannot bring myself to sub into a game these days. I know developers would like me to play their MMO, and their MMO alone, but I like to be able to play whichever MMO I have bought whenever I feel like.
That's why I love the fact many devs are going the B2P route these days. For people like me it's really the best middle ground between the nickel-and-diming F2P and the ever-binding P2P.
EverQuest 2 has a very robust crafting and housing system, also Runes of Magic also has a housing and crafting system that also utilizes the Guild Castle where you can have gardens, quarries and production areas. How is this game going to be any better than those? I will be wanting to check this out for sure as I have always enjoyed the crafting in the aforementioned games.
I agree and many gamer's seem to be following advertising or hype games without realizing what is actually out there in the market place. ROM is a free to play game,yes graphics are low poly but so are MOST games in the mmorpg genre.However that game has ALL bases covered as mentioned and still some unique ideas as well. This era is no longer about the same old same old,if i wanted the old i could simply go play the old but i don't,i want new ,i want to see creativity. I want to walk into a game and say "whoa cool,this is some pretty neat stuff".I do NOT want to walk into a game and see npc's with yellow markers over their head and automatic follow the leader linear questing. I want to walk into a game feel like i am part of a world,i need to discover everything "NO hand holding",i need to test ideas "crafting"i need to actually talk to and visit all the npc';s to see what their gig is,i want an OPEN world not a confined linear world,in other words , i want a MMO not a WOW clone of instances.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
CU is filled with good ideas and ideals, but I just cannot bring myself to sub into a game these days. I know developers would like me to play their MMO, and their MMO alone, but I like to be able to play whichever MMO I have bought whenever I feel like.
That's why I love the fact many devs are going the B2P route these days. For people like me it's really the best middle ground between the nickel-and-diming F2P and the ever-binding P2P.
I most certainly can sub into a game and prefer it 100%,with NO CS.
All i ask is for a really good game to play,heck i will pay more than 15 a month if the developer can give me a good game and update it so the entire game feels alive and not just add in one new zone to advance levels.How much?Well i wouldn't go above 50 but i would definitely pay 30/month if game was good enough.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Have they talked much about power levels via items and/or leveling up etc.?
Really quite the antithesis to OWPvP and RvR is a grind-heavy power progression with big deltas between low and high end.
Yep. SInce we are a horizontal-based (mostly) progression system, all bonuses, whether they come from stats, items, abilities, etc. have to conform to the same principle. We've been very clear that a veteran can't one-shot (or two) a newbie. So, Ben and I have to ensure that no matter what we add to the power curve, it must stay within those boundaries.
This is great to hear, power scaling is one of my main concerns about pvp games and I strongly dislike pvp in games that have huge gear gaps/ power gaps, that kind of thing seems more suitable to a pve environment imo.
DAOC had decent crafting, until ToA came out and ruined it. First rule is: crafters make the best stuff. No drops can equal what crafters make. If you don't do this, then forget crafting.
-----
I understand what you're saying, but the items required to craft said items need to come from top-end drops. You want to craft that Red Dragon Shield? Great, go kill a few red dragons and get the scales, then craft it. There needs to be incentive on both sides.
-----
Totally agree. Nothing should drop any finished anything, only mats to make things. Like in Ryzom, no weapons or armor ever drops from anything. Weak generic items can be purchased from NPC's, but anything worth anything is made by a crafter.
They ruined DAOC crafting, let's see if they learned anything.
It seems you are missing some important information:
1: DAoC's character system is built around attributes that can hit attribute caps. Players always aimed to hit the class relevant attribute caps and all resistances.
2: When the game came out, the crafting system allowed players to craft items up to level 40. These items had no stat enhancing features and were considered useless by the majority of players.
=> Players used to run around with drop items from dungeons like Stonehenge Barrows(alb), Coruscating Mine(hib) or Spindelhalla(mid) and high lvl zones such as Lyonesse(alb), Bog of Cullen(hib) and Vanern Swamp(mid). With the introduction of the epic zones in February 2002, roundabout 2 months after release, players usually ran an item setup combining epic armor and dropped loot.
3: With patch 1.48, Mythic introduced almost half a year after launch the 9th and 10th materials which finally enabled players to craft lvl 50/51 items (=16.2dps / 16.5dps unlocked at RealmRank5).
=> Damage wise these items became interesting, but they still missed proper stats and procs.
4: With patch 1.53, Mythic introduced in November 2002 spellcrafting and alchemy.
=> Almost a year after release, the crafting system finally reached its full potential by allowing players to use player crafted high end equipment and enchant it via spellcrafting to fit a certain set of jewelry. 1 month after this patch, Shrouded Isles was released.
In my opinion, DAoCs crafting system created an excellent symbiosis between player created items and npc dropped items. Even the TOA expansion could not break this symbiosis. It just pushed the possibilities to hit the stat caps closer to the limits.
Comments
I don't know of any other game that has taken the same approach. It will be quite exciting to see how it all comes together.
I like that both the developers of Camelot Unchained and Crowfall don't aim to make the next ''wow'' and definetely don't aim for the greatest subscription numbers. They want to make good original mmos in order to revive the mmo - genre. Hurrah!
It is called NO CHOICE.
They do not have the budget or team to make another Wow ,simple as that.This is why most low budget games aim for pvp,it is a hundred miles easier and cheaper to do than lots of PVE systems.
Having said that,there are lots of ways to cut corners and i am ok with that as long as you make up for it with good systems elsewhere.One perfect example i see a LOT of is games using 2D assets,buildings with no insides,that cuts out a megaton of added work.
I feel crafting is often too quickly tossed into a game.The excuses are usually lame ,like nobody cares abot ucrafting.Well if yo ukeep tossing out the exact same formula as WOW each and every time,then no likely they won't be interested.That is why as a good developer you need to be creative and come up with a game where players WANT to play the whole entire ROLE PLAYING experience and not just pvp.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
3 keywords >>>RARE,Hidden,Secret
If you create a crafting system that has to be discovered it attracts people to find out what lays around the corner.I absolutely loved the crafting system in another game because if you put in enough effort you could discover a road to riches and be part of a unique crowd of crafters that could sell wares that nobody else was and it was NOT just about spending more time and hours.
Another idea would be combination of mats.It would be easy to assume,get the best rare of everything and end result is the best crafted item.Well what if that were not true,what if some player decided to test different combinations and came up with perhaps a better food for Accuracy or a better food for defense etc etc.
Then you could add in RARE by having players to seek out and actually interact with npc's to find pieces and puzzles to rare crafts.This does not mean npc's with a yellow marker over their head,that kind of nonsense bothers me a lot.Perhaps there is a hidden parchment under some tree in some secluded area with a piece of the puzzle,you know have players actually explore the world for something OTHER than "step here and you get FREE xp",again that sort of nonsense bothers me.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Tamanous said:
>>EQ is niche. Still running.
AC is niche. Still exists.
UO is nicke. Still exists.
Eve is niche. Still going.
These games started this industry.
Niche means something created for a specific audience with specific interests and has proven to be the only games that keep long term fans. Just as many games that tried to target large markets, crossing many genres and platforms have failed as any niche game.
Your argument is both false and ignorant of fact.
Apart from EVE, neither of those games were "niche" when they launched.
The cost of game development dramatically increased since.
The market size dramatically increased since.
The audience dramatically changed since.
Neither what happed "back then" is relevant to today market.
Niche does not meam what you think it means.
etc..
Yeah, tell us more about being false and ignorant....
Then those old mmorpgs launched they were the definition of niche (the indie mmorpgs in development now trying to emulate and evolve them are called niche so how could this mean the originals aren't niche?). The only thing that matters, even today, is that an audience exists for a specific gaming concept. You have to prove to us that this audience does not exist. You have no other argument outside of that and merely are throwing your own opinion around.
CU is being built for a specific audience. If you are not within that audience ... don't play. Whether it gains an audience or not is entirely outside of your personal opinion and knee-jerk, automatic rage reply.
Do players want a successor to DAoC? Yes ... every player who ever enjoyed DAoC. There are a lot.
Do players want a complex crafting system based off of SWG style crafting and economy? Yes ... every player who enjoyed crafting in SWG. There are a lot.
Does CU wish to attract any player who has zero interest in this concept? Nope ... but hopes to make a game that is fun and that people may wish to try something outside of their comfort zone. The game could not exist if forced to attract everyone and that is the point.
I fail to understand the arguments here by many. They complain about all mmos being the same yet further complain when mmos trying something entirely new or bring back concepts lost yet loved by many.
Don't like it? Don't play it. CU is RvR but it's fundamental game design is built around community building. That is it's difference and only exists by attracting players who share a similar interest. This means that ANYONE spouting disinterest is not wanted nor wished to be heard from.
I know this is a hard concept for many to understand for this "dramatically changed" audience you mention. This is where you are wrong. Audiences always change. This is generational ... but this is cyclical. Always has been and always will be. CU wants to attract an audience that has already existed, still exists and wished this audience to grow. What is your issue with not wanting this to be allowed? What scares you so badly that you must disallow the very attempt?
You stay sassy!
Really quite the antithesis to OWPvP and RvR is a grind-heavy power progression with big deltas between low and high end.
Thanks, much appreciated. It hasn't been easy at times but as per above, I promised I'd tell our Backers the truth, good/bad or indifferent, even when it was highly personal (like my wife's breast cancer).
I agree. That's why I'm spending so much of my time on crafting now and not just handing the vision doc over to somebody else and hoping for the best. I need to make the time to design the system, not just do the "I have a vision thing". I'm not going to repeat the fiasco of WAR's crafting. FYI, WAR's crafting system's failure was not the fault of the designer who took my doc and ran with it. He wasn't given enough time and resources and he did the best he could.
Yep, I couldn't agree more with what you said. If I hadn't talked so boldly about the concepts, it would have gone down as an okay system. Not horrible, not great but because I talked about it so much, and because the result was not great, it looked worse by comparison. As per above, not repeating that mistake.
It's a big part of the economy, just as it was in my MUDs (Aradath and Dragon's Gate) as well as Dark Age of Camelot.
Yep. SInce we are a horizontal-based (mostly) progression system, all bonuses, whether they come from stats, items, abilities, etc. have to conform to the same principle. We've been very clear that a veteran can't one-shot (or two) a newbie. So, Ben and I have to ensure that no matter what we add to the power curve, it must stay within those boundaries.
Can't blame you one bit. I'd like to say two things in my own defense is that I said a lot of things about Dark Age/WAR and our other games, and so many of them came out just fine. The other is that in concept, the crafting system was great but like many games/studios, what could have been great, doesn't always end up that way, for a variety of reasons. Nobody's perfect and I have never, will never lie to Backers or potential players. Sometimes though, well, bad things happen.
What I'd like to ask of you is that you wait to see how our crafting system works out and then decide that maybe things were a bit more complicated than just "Mark said/hyped this and all we got was..." But if not, no worries. Thanks for taking the time to post here.
Thanks all. BBL if there are any questions while I'm lurking.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
I just want to say thanks for my 3 years at warhammer.
It was my first mmo and was in many aspects amazing. It had its flaws ofc but overall was the best experience I had from the many mmos I played since.
You and your team put lots of love on it and it showed.
If CU will be half as fun as warhammer count me in from beta!!!
Thanks for the wonderful time you gave me in that great game.
Best wishes and hope CU will be a milestone ( I ´m sure of it)
For what it's worth, I consider WAR the best game ever made (and it wasn't my first - or even second - MMO)
16!!!! bgs/scenarios at launch.
wonderful (2008) animations for each class/race and great graphics
6 different starter zones.
Pvp from level one.
Pve (yes it HAD pve content) and pvp content.
A game that encouraged to play in groups not solo.
They don´t make games like this anymore. All are now copy/paste. CU and maybe pantheon are our last hope.
That's why I love the fact many devs are going the B2P route these days. For people like me it's really the best middle ground between the nickel-and-diming F2P and the ever-binding P2P.
ROM is a free to play game,yes graphics are low poly but so are MOST games in the mmorpg genre.However that game has ALL bases covered as mentioned and still some unique ideas as well.
This era is no longer about the same old same old,if i wanted the old i could simply go play the old but i don't,i want new ,i want to see creativity.
I want to walk into a game and say "whoa cool,this is some pretty neat stuff".I do NOT want to walk into a game and see npc's with yellow markers over their head and automatic follow the leader linear questing.
I want to walk into a game feel like i am part of a world,i need to discover everything "NO hand holding",i need to test ideas "crafting"i need to actually talk to and visit all the npc';s to see what their gig is,i want an OPEN world not a confined linear world,in other words , i want a MMO not a WOW clone of instances.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It seems you are missing some important information:
1: DAoC's character system is built around attributes that can hit attribute caps. Players always aimed to hit the class relevant attribute caps and all resistances.
2: When the game came out, the crafting system allowed players to craft items up to level 40. These items had no stat enhancing features and were considered useless by the majority of players.
=> Players used to run around with drop items from dungeons like Stonehenge Barrows(alb), Coruscating Mine(hib) or Spindelhalla(mid) and high lvl zones such as Lyonesse(alb), Bog of Cullen(hib) and Vanern Swamp(mid). With the introduction of the epic zones in February 2002, roundabout 2 months after release, players usually ran an item setup combining epic armor and dropped loot.
3: With patch 1.48, Mythic introduced almost half a year after launch the 9th and 10th materials which finally enabled players to craft lvl 50/51 items (=16.2dps / 16.5dps unlocked at RealmRank5).
=> Damage wise these items became interesting, but they still missed proper stats and procs.
4: With patch 1.53, Mythic introduced in November 2002 spellcrafting and alchemy.
=> Almost a year after release, the crafting system finally reached its full potential by allowing players to use player crafted high end equipment and enchant it via spellcrafting to fit a certain set of jewelry. 1 month after this patch, Shrouded Isles was released.
In my opinion, DAoCs crafting system created an excellent symbiosis between player created items and npc dropped items. Even the TOA expansion could not break this symbiosis. It just pushed the possibilities to hit the stat caps closer to the limits.