You only have 1 right as a gamer, and it's the best one.
If you don't like what a game company is doing then stop giving them money.
Entirely true. Its a bit more complicated tho, many new players dont know the company, or the company is new, they buy "Package","Add-on", they get tricked into its one time payment, or they get banned randomly on game release even after they paid money to be head on xD
Players buying something which company after alters into something less without players knowledge, so that they can buy more of it. Speaking distant, but ppl can relate to it, plenty of examples in gaming.
You really need to understand companies don't need to call you to change a product. You don't like their change you have two options.
1) Stop playing
2) keep playing and adapt
Acting like you are an entitled snob and somehow a company owes you a personal phone call to explain the direction they chose to take a product is insane. It's scary people actually have this mentality....
Please also look up what the big words mean before you decide to use them.
You got no leg to stand on. You are playing their game. They can do whatever they want with their game because... *drumroll* ...it's their fucking game.
If they decide to turn every player into a purple panda bear with a fedora farting raindbows then they can do exactly that and no one can do anything about it. Well, they can stop playing of cause.
This is also true for subscription games. You can probably get back subscription fees you paid in advance if you don't like a patch but part from that you have no say in anything.
How do you even come up with this ridiculous notion that you have any rights to demand anything from a FREE TO PLAY game.
/smh
There ! You said it :pleased:
"This is also true for subscription games. You can probably get back
subscription fees you paid in advance if you don't like a patch but part
from that you have no say in anything."
That happened in archeage, much of the money wasnt returned, and went down the drain. That is exactly the type of thing i am talking about. And it isnt an isolated incident as well.
What money went down the drain in ArchAge?
You can get subscription fees back because some companies are nice and you have not technically used the service you paid for.
If you have not spent the cash you converted to a fantasy game currency you might get that back. That will depend on the individual company. Some don't give a fuck and some will refund you.
They are however under no obligation to refund you at all (beyond the individual countries e-commerce laws)
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
The very nature of these online games is their changeability .You cannot restrict it as it is fundamental nature of the beast. You're not buying a vacuum cleaner for heaven's sake.
You really need to understand companies don't need to call you to change a product. You don't like their change you have two options.
1) Stop playing
2) keep playing and adapt
If they claim the game won't be pay 2 win, and it becomes pay 2 win, they are violating laws.
"Bait-and-switch marketing techniques are dishonest.
In fact, in many countries true “bait and switch” has been made illegal
through different forms of consumer protection legislation. In the United States, consumers can file a lawsuit against a
marketer for false advertising if they’re using the technique."
You really need to understand companies don't need to call you to change a product. You don't like their change you have two options.
1) Stop playing
2) keep playing and adapt
If they claim the game won't be pay 2 win, and it becomes pay 2 win, they are violating laws.
"Bait-and-switch marketing techniques are dishonest.
In fact, in many countries true “bait and switch” has been made illegal
through different forms of consumer protection legislation. In the United States, consumers can file a lawsuit against a
marketer for false advertising if they’re using the technique."
Well, Id imagine you would need a legal definition of P2W, because according to many on the internet, everything is P2W.
Actually, you would need to also define 'winning' in an endless game.
Has pay to win been legally defined in a game then for it to be legally arguable or will there be numerous interpretations of it. There is no point in a term that will lead to more confusion. Lawyers would have a field day though.
You can get subscription fees back because some companies are nice
Because companies are nice?
What world do you live in.
The only reason companies are giving sub fees back is because:
A: People will chargeback otherwise, which result in fines for the company. And usually an investigation by the BBB or consumer groups if enough chargebacks happen.
B: Chargebacks results in legal problems after a while, which will result in people from the government and VISA, researching the cash shop, which could result in the company being accused of letting minors gamble money, which is illegal and can get executives jailtime.
It's the same reason why Apple is refunding app purchases from games targeting children. If they don't, they will get into lots of problems with many laws that prohibit enticing minors to spend money.
Apple has refunded millions of in-app purchases from addictive games, because when you target minors, you are in a completely different legal framework that can get you into lots of problems as a company. We know minors play MMO, we know they spend money on cash shops. MMO companies are scared as shit that they will be accused of targeting minors.
You really need to understand companies don't need to call you to change a product. You don't like their change you have two options.
1) Stop playing
2) keep playing and adapt
If they claim the game won't be pay 2 win, and it becomes pay 2 win, they are violating laws.
"Bait-and-switch marketing techniques are dishonest.
In fact, in many countries true “bait and switch” has been made illegal
through different forms of consumer protection legislation. In the United States, consumers can file a lawsuit against a
marketer for false advertising if they’re using the technique."
So now it's illegal for other people to have opinions that differ from your own? If they claim a game is fun and you don't think the game is fun, is that also illegal?
Claims like "not pay to win" are so vague as to be meaningless. You'd need violations of far more precise claims to have any legal leg to stand on.
It appears now that not only do gamers want their games for free, they don't want anyone to be able to accomplish more in the game by spending money. They just want free games with hats and sparkle ponies in the cash shop.
People are clueless how F2P games work and still see them as some kind of gift from heaven.
It should be obvious by now to everyone that plays them how they work. So either stop playing them or figure out how they work. But you have no rights, or guarantees when your not spending any money, if you do you hold all the cards, that's how EVERYTHING in this world works.
Short of out right fraud, or breaking ecommerce laws by region, there is nothing you can do. Just open your wallet, because that's what gamers voted for when they embraced F2P.
The only thing that really should be regulated by the government is the right to own a game. Once you purchased a game it is yours and you should be able to resell it both the hard copy or the digital copy. Also you should be able to play a single player game without internet connection.
Everything else is up to the player requirement to do some research before they give money to the game developers, you can't rely on the government to spoon feed you every step of the way.
Claims like "not pay to win" are so vague as to be meaningless. You'd need violations of far more precise claims to have any legal leg to stand on.
and why would anyone needs protection from p2w? Just don't play the game, or don't buy in the cash shop.
Companies are obligated to deliver what they promise, but that's only in cases where the promises are precise enough to be meaningful. For example, if you buy a 30-day subscription to a game and after you've bought it, the company later decides to make it expire after 15 days and not offer any refund, that's fraud.
But outright fraud like that is not what it is dispute in this thread.
Companies are obligated to deliver what they promise, but that's only in cases where the promises are precise enough to be meaningful. For example, if you buy a 30-day subscription to a game and after you've bought it, the company later decides to make it expire after 15 days and not offer any refund, that's fraud.
Exactly. There is no legal definition of p2w. Plus, it is not like they lie about a cash shop, or what is being sold in there.
The only thing that really should be regulated by the government is the right to own a game. Once you purchased a game it is yours and you should be able to resell it both the hard copy or the digital copy. Also you should be able to play a single player game without internet connection.
Everything else is up to the player requirement to do some research before they give money to the game developers, you can't rely on the government to spoon feed you every step of the way.
As I recall, the only thing you have ever done was leased the rights to use said software (US), it's never been yours physically. You had the right to make a backup copy but did not have the right to resell it (even though many did at garage sales and the like). The fact that most never prosecuted such sales never made it legal to do. And I'm looking back a good 20 years here and that was the way it was even at the very beginning.
Online games aren't in your physical possession to begin with, which is why you have zero chance of playing the same game you bought into just weeks later. I know a lot of folks who wish their experience in the game didn't change with the ebb and flow of marketing statistics. However with the dawn of online gaming, your ownership of the game is even less than it was 20 years ago... you know, when you still had a physical box copy that was in your possession? If you still have a machine capable of running it, you can still play it... but isn't that funny, how even the OS developers force you to abandon your software at every turn they can?
Your rights as a consumer are clear... make educated choices not impulsive ones. No one ever held a gun to your head to buy the game in the first place, you can't go blame the developers for not delivering what YOU wanted.
Caveat Emptor... older than you or I and yet so true to this very day.
If you don't like how a game works or plays DONT play it, crying it's wrong and pouting how it's not fair to you is pathetic.
Games and their model are changed after the fact. Games ask money upfront, they make promises, and then add game breaking items in the cash shop. Bait and switch is illegal.
Not to mention these gaming companies are skirting with gambling laws, and one of these days someone is going to point out what everyone already knows...that combining gambling and minors....is illegal.
The only one "pathetic" here is you for telling others to shut up. People have a right to voice their displeasure. This MMO industry is going down the drain at this rate. People are fed up with these cash shop scams.
People can say any stupid crap they want, they can bitch about non issues all they want, that doesn't change that it's pathetic. Grown ass people shouldn't need a nanny for these kinds of things, self control is all that is needed.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The only thing that really should be regulated by the government is the right to own a game. Once you purchased a game it is yours and you should be able to resell it both the hard copy or the digital copy. Also you should be able to play a single player game without internet connection.
Everything else is up to the player requirement to do some research before they give money to the game developers, you can't rely on the government to spoon feed you every step of the way.
I would add one more thing to that. I think there should be regulations on what developers can sell that doesn't exist yet. Right now, it's too easy to "Take the money and run"
This is probably already been said but when you sign up and play a game you are essentially signing away a bunch of rights in trade for the ability to play.
The only thing that really should be regulated by the government is the right to own a game. Once you purchased a game it is yours and you should be able to resell it both the hard copy or the digital copy. Also you should be able to play a single player game without internet connection.
Everything else is up to the player requirement to do some research before they give money to the game developers, you can't rely on the government to spoon feed you every step of the way.
I would add one more thing to that. I think there should be regulations on what developers can sell that doesn't exist yet. Right now, it's too easy to "Take the money and run"
IF you're referring to crowd-funding, then you're essentially trying to regulate what folks can donate toward, which is not so cut and dry.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Claims like "not pay to win" are so vague as to be meaningless. You'd need violations of far more precise claims to have any legal leg to stand on.
and why would anyone needs protection from p2w? Just don't play the game, or don't buy in the cash shop.
Companies are obligated to deliver what they promise, but that's only in cases where the promises are precise enough to be meaningful. For example, if you buy a 30-day subscription to a game and after you've bought it, the company later decides to make it expire after 15 days and not offer any refund, that's fraud.
But outright fraud like that is not what it is dispute in this thread.
Companies aren't obligated to deliver anything when they create mental associations between their product and something positive, but "not pay to win" is more than just a mental image. It's precise enough that it has to have some basic in truth and the company is obligated to deliver it in some form.
However proving that a game is "pay to win" would be very hard, and as long as there's no court decision the companies will claim it's not pay to win because they know they can get away with it.
There's been some success in getting F2P games add the clause that they "contain in-app purchases". It might be that in the future we'll see some limitations on when a game can be marketed as not pay to win.
It seems many haven't even read the OP. He is not talking about a right to play games for free, or paying for something and then changing your mind. He is talking about paying for a product and then being forced to spend more ( unless you want your time and initial money investment to go to waste) by shady P2W additions.
WHich still makes no sense, as P2W means what exactly in your argument? there's no law against giving special treatment to those who pay more.... nor no requirement that a game must offer a level playing field across the board... it's a ridiculous premise. We expect courts now to dictate the state of PVP in games? That would be asinine, not to mention a huge waste of time as well as judicial resource.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You prevent it by not buying / supporting the game to begin with. P2W / Cash shops / F2P are casino games, the sole purpose of these games is to drain as much money out of you as possible. The devs / pubs of these games don't give a darn about you and after a while don't give a darn about their game since they release a new title to keep the "hype" flowing. P2W titles will last as long as people keep their heads inside of their own butts, so yeah, we're stuck getting bombarded by P2W titles for a few more decades.
So, how to prevent this from happening any longer?
Think of it similar to selling poisoned food in markets with no consequences.
How to prevent it? Players need to grow up and start taking responsibility for how they spend their money. If a game indicates that it can change things "whenever" and a player has noted that he/she normally doesn't like "changes" the stop playing those games. If game implements a cash shop don't play that game.
It is hardly equal to selling poised food in markets with no consequences.
Most games nowadays have Cash-Shop, or what if players bought the game, that was healthy, and later on it turned p2w, unplayable by their standards? What responsibility and action did they have than, when it wasnt their choice at all in the slightest.
Still, that counts like investing in something very possibly bad, like gambling, call it by its name, we are playing a game within a game, gambling our money praying something doesnt turn on us.
Since when did we have to be so aware if games will try to extort more money from us than we already gave. They are games ffs, cant they just give us the product they promise and take the money they priced it for.
They are not extorting money from you.
As far as your examples it still goes back to what I said. If you find that these games change too often to something you don't like then move on and don't come back.
And yes, these games do many times start out as one thing and then change to something else. As I said, if this bothers you then leave the genre and play something else.
The World isn't indelibly stamped in stone. The problem here is that some players want guarantees in a world where there are very few guarantees. That's life. We all have to grow up and deal with it.
If companies are doing things you don't like then don't patronize those companies. If that's every video game company then that says a lot for this hobby.
But we know that's not every company, at least with single player games.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You really need to understand companies don't need to call you to change a product. You don't like their change you have two options.
1) Stop playing
2) keep playing and adapt
If they claim the game won't be pay 2 win, and it becomes pay 2 win, they are violating laws.
"Bait-and-switch marketing techniques are dishonest.
In fact, in many countries true “bait and switch” has been made illegal
through different forms of consumer protection legislation. In the United States, consumers can file a lawsuit against a
marketer for false advertising if they’re using the technique."
File away little buddy...make sure to post your court date so we can all laugh as the judge throws your ass out of court for bringing a frivolous lawsuit and as you walk out the company you are attempting to sue throws a suit against you for their legal fees... I can't wait until one of you entitled snobs finally follows through with your empty threats.
You really need to understand companies don't need to call you to change a product. You don't like their change you have two options.
1) Stop playing
2) keep playing and adapt
If they claim the game won't be pay 2 win, and it becomes pay 2 win, they are violating laws.
"Bait-and-switch marketing techniques are dishonest.
In fact, in many countries true “bait and switch” has been made illegal
through different forms of consumer protection legislation. In the United States, consumers can file a lawsuit against a
marketer for false advertising if they’re using the technique."
P2W has no legal definition, how in the hell do you regulate such a thing from a governmental standpoint? Do you know how many areas of life what you're complaining about exists in? Money for advantage is normal, it is not regulated against on a governmental level, it is a non-issue as far as governments as well courts are concerned. Pay it or don't, then fall into the line your decision puts you in...life: it's not fair...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You really need to understand companies don't need to call you to change a product. You don't like their change you have two options.
1) Stop playing
2) keep playing and adapt
If they claim the game won't be pay 2 win, and it becomes pay 2 win, they are violating laws.
"Bait-and-switch marketing techniques are dishonest.
In fact, in many countries true “bait and switch” has been made illegal
through different forms of consumer protection legislation. In the United States, consumers can file a lawsuit against a
marketer for false advertising if they’re using the technique."
P2W has no legal definition, how in the hell do you regulate such a thing from a governmental standpoint? Do you know how many areas what you're complaining about exists in? Money for advantage is normal, it is not regulated against, it is a non-issue as far as governments as well courts. Pay it or don't, fall into the line your decision puts you in...
As long as it's not regulated, it's a question about agreement between the publisher and the consumer buying their game. Not regulated doesn't mean no rules, or no government enforcement, not regulated means that the parties are free to agree whatever they want. And agreement isn't limited to the EULA, TOS, etc. that you click "I agree" to, marketing information given by publisher is also a part of the agreement when you buy the game.
Government might at some point pass regulations on P2W, but I think it's very unlikely.
More likely it'll be taken to courts at some point, and courts will determine what do publisher and consumer mean when they agree that the game is "not pay to win", and whether that's something that can be enforced by law.
Comments
1) Stop playing
2) keep playing and adapt
Acting like you are an entitled snob and somehow a company owes you a personal phone call to explain the direction they chose to take a product is insane. It's scary people actually have this mentality....
You can get subscription fees back because some companies are nice and you have not technically used the service you paid for.
If you have not spent the cash you converted to a fantasy game currency you might get that back. That will depend on the individual company. Some don't give a fuck and some will refund you.
They are however under no obligation to refund you at all (beyond the individual countries e-commerce laws)
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
"Bait-and-switch marketing techniques are dishonest. In fact, in many countries true “bait and switch” has been made illegal through different forms of consumer protection legislation. In the United States, consumers can file a lawsuit against a marketer for false advertising if they’re using the technique."
Actually, you would need to also define 'winning' in an endless game.
What world do you live in.
The only reason companies are giving sub fees back is because:
A: People will chargeback otherwise, which result in fines for the company. And usually an investigation by the BBB or consumer groups if enough chargebacks happen.
B: Chargebacks results in legal problems after a while, which will result in people from the government and VISA, researching the cash shop, which could result in the company being accused of letting minors gamble money, which is illegal and can get executives jailtime.
It's the same reason why Apple is refunding app purchases from games targeting children. If they don't, they will get into lots of problems with many laws that prohibit enticing minors to spend money.
Apple has refunded millions of in-app purchases from addictive games, because when you target minors, you are in a completely different legal framework that can get you into lots of problems as a company. We know minors play MMO, we know they spend money on cash shops. MMO companies are scared as shit that they will be accused of targeting minors.
Claims like "not pay to win" are so vague as to be meaningless. You'd need violations of far more precise claims to have any legal leg to stand on.
It appears now that not only do gamers want their games for free, they don't want anyone to be able to accomplish more in the game by spending money. They just want free games with hats and sparkle ponies in the cash shop.
People are clueless how F2P games work and still see them as some kind of gift from heaven.
It should be obvious by now to everyone that plays them how they work. So either stop playing them or figure out how they work. But you have no rights, or guarantees when your not spending any money, if you do you hold all the cards, that's how EVERYTHING in this world works.
Short of out right fraud, or breaking ecommerce laws by region, there is nothing you can do. Just open your wallet, because that's what gamers voted for when they embraced F2P.
Once you purchased a game it is yours and you should be able to resell it both the hard copy or the digital copy.
Also you should be able to play a single player game without internet connection.
Everything else is up to the player requirement to do some research before they give money to the game developers, you can't rely on the government to spoon feed you every step of the way.
But outright fraud like that is not what it is dispute in this thread.
Online games aren't in your physical possession to begin with, which is why you have zero chance of playing the same game you bought into just weeks later. I know a lot of folks who wish their experience in the game didn't change with the ebb and flow of marketing statistics. However with the dawn of online gaming, your ownership of the game is even less than it was 20 years ago... you know, when you still had a physical box copy that was in your possession? If you still have a machine capable of running it, you can still play it... but isn't that funny, how even the OS developers force you to abandon your software at every turn they can?
Your rights as a consumer are clear... make educated choices not impulsive ones. No one ever held a gun to your head to buy the game in the first place, you can't go blame the developers for not delivering what YOU wanted.
Caveat Emptor... older than you or I and yet so true to this very day.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think there should be regulations on what developers can sell that doesn't exist yet.
Right now, it's too easy to "Take the money and run"
Also, you aren't forced to play the game.
I also believe you have to show loss/harm.
This thread is dumb.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
However proving that a game is "pay to win" would be very hard, and as long as there's no court decision the companies will claim it's not pay to win because they know they can get away with it.
There's been some success in getting F2P games add the clause that they "contain in-app purchases". It might be that in the future we'll see some limitations on when a game can be marketed as not pay to win.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
As far as your examples it still goes back to what I said. If you find that these games change too often to something you don't like then move on and don't come back.
And yes, these games do many times start out as one thing and then change to something else. As I said, if this bothers you then leave the genre and play something else.
The World isn't indelibly stamped in stone. The problem here is that some players want guarantees in a world where there are very few guarantees. That's life. We all have to grow up and deal with it.
If companies are doing things you don't like then don't patronize those companies. If that's every video game company then that says a lot for this hobby.
But we know that's not every company, at least with single player games.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Government might at some point pass regulations on P2W, but I think it's very unlikely.
More likely it'll be taken to courts at some point, and courts will determine what do publisher and consumer mean when they agree that the game is "not pay to win", and whether that's something that can be enforced by law.