Hardcore RvR

SBFord

Hardcore RvR

Most people consider “hardcore” PVP to be free for all, full loot PVP and to the purists anything less is “carebear”. “Realm vs Realm”, as coined in Dark Age of Camelot, is considered to be PVP’s friendly cousin. It's PVP with a focus on realm/faction wide co-operation. The very fabric of RVR goes against the very nature of hardcore PVP but words and their meanings are not stagnant. Is RVR in Camelot Unchained more hardcore than hardcore PVP?

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Muke

Hardcore PVP = Evolution.


Game changes, players get different stuff, the political landscape and battle for Power always changes.

Laeesh

Awesome read and you offer a shift in perspective that might kindle the one or another "hey, that sound´s like a "more-dimensional-"-loss, i see my fighting time well invested defending this area / building", feeling.

It also fit´s the "RvR" core concept of a more "collective pvp" type, thereby it ties people together and they may lose something that a group of people have invested in, not "only" losing the equiped item´s / inventory stuff. Love that pic of the destroyed castle..

Lorgarn

Good article, I hadn't really thought about it that way and by the way you describe it - PvP in CU, or RvR as it were, sounds a bit more "hardcore" than I originally thought it would or could be.

bcbully

Hardcore PvP is when you see that person, that person you know/know of and think I'm going to kill him. When you know that person can't beat you. When that person is thinking the exact same thing. When you kill that person and it hurts him because he was wrong. When that person kills you and it hurts because you were wrong. When you immediately think of what you did right, what beat him, or what you did wrong, why you lost, and how to reinforce or how to insure it never happens again.

If CU can create this environment on all levels It will be just fine.

Nanfoodle

CF and CU in a race, who will finish, who will win!?!?!?!

Mensur

CU will be epic!

bcbully

Nanfoodle said:
CF and CU in a race, who will finish, who will win!?!?!?!


Unfortunately CF seems to be far ahead. At the same time it seems to be a less complex game. I'm still pulling for CU. CF is making good strides though.

Edany

Just reading this article got the blood pumping through my veins at all of the possibilities - the adrenaline rush of attacking and defending the icons of our Realms. The sweet taste of a long and hard won victory, and the bitter taste of resounding defeat. What makes this better for me is that these victories and defeats - they aren't mine alone to bear, but will be bourne on the shoulders of myself and all of my realm mates - together. Truly - Epic.

Alomar

I've never only considered hardcore pvp to be full loot mmo's. I've played around 30 mmo's and only several have been full loot systems and in most of these mmo's I've remained a hardcore pvper. I do believe some pvp/rvr systems don't allow for "real" hardcore play but many do. Therefore, the definition is relative to each individual, to me it is the time you spend pvping and the success you garner while doing so. Rvr is simply pvp to me in a different format (my favorite format), that includes both hardcore and casual players.

JamesGoblin

My dear Timothy, you forgot about taking enemy souls ( to make it worse, NAMED souls, possibly connected to the promised bounty system!? - check the video ), looting & pillaging their belongings from houses and castles (and likely, ships, caravans as well) and very likely FFA servers, hinted at already a number of times.

...And all that - as opposed to taking someone's boots off. I'm certainly not with boot fetishists in this one.

Wizardry

I don't consider a game legit unless it has minimum of 10+ realms better if 20+.All of these games have 2-3 realms,hardly worth gaming for.Even better yet is if the realms are player created,so could have 100+ realms and that is the way a game should be designed if aiming for that type of design.
When people played EQ did they really care while gaming that they were on the good side or evil side?No players i would think want their own kingdom/realm to rule over.provide those players the ability to claim a plot of land and  build a kingdom,give them npc's to help build their realm,if they so choose to not use real players.
Surely a game can easily support 100 realms all run by players.Geesh you could fit 20 in one map.Remember the old KOEI games "ROTK/Bandit Kings",that is what Realm conquering was all about but that was a small scale and on older platforms,now a days we can do much better and with more depth.

donger56

I was interested in this game early on but as things progressed I started to really wonder if what they are doing makes sense. First off they are going with the old school box fee and monthly sub business model. Big mistake imo. I don't see enough people paying a sub for a PvP only MMORPG. I think buy to play would have been a better option only because I hate F2P with the burning heat of a thousand suns.

They are doing some really weird and quirky things with the classes that I'm not sure will work as they intend them too. Mark calls this his BSC or "bat shit crazy" game design style. Yeah ok, but crazy isn't always the best way to go.

I think DAOC was a great game that brought a lot to the MMO genre, but Warhammer Online was a complete disaster so which type of game will we get from Jacobs this time? I hope it's another DAOC that brings some new life to a stale genre, but I'm not betting money on it. I'll wait until next year to see what they release.

Gyrus

So, no-one remembers WWII:online / Battlefield Europe then? That's still running.
How about Pirates of the Burning Sea?

Maybe some real 'hardcore' PvP and RvR vets can give a few more?

As for that idea of floating away land... this still does not address the problem of population imbalance. Or 'low pop' Time Zones (and low pop 'flips') for that matter.
That map represents a concept that does not reflect the way gamers actually play.

Zubeii

Good read. I look forward to sacking Viking and Arthurian buildings.

filmoret

3 realm hardcore is much better then developers realize.  Just throwing up a hardcore full loot pvp game doesn't work and it has never worked.  UO is the exception because they were the only option.  Now that people have options they avoid full loot pvp games at all cost.  RVR with full loot would work I'm pretty sure but this game isn't offering such a thing but something similar with taking land.  But we shall see how the mechanics turn out like every game out there we just have to wait and see how it actually plays.  I do look forward to seeing it.

Soki123

CF and CU in a race, nah. I ll just play both.

MarkJacobs

Nicely said Tim, nicely said.

I'll be back later and reply in the comments section. Been a long morning already, I'm hungry, and I have a .doc to finish before the end of the day so I'm a little pressed for time.

grumpy43

donger56 said:
I was interested in this game early on but as things progressed I started to really wonder if what they are doing makes sense. First off they are going with the old school box fee and monthly sub business model. Big mistake imo. I don't see enough people paying a sub for a PvP only MMORPG. I think buy to play would have been a better option only because I hate F2P with the burning heat of a thousand suns.

MJ has said, this is a niche game, I suspect 25K subs keeps the studio healthy and 50K subs is crazy success for a small studio; this also allows the investors to be paid back.

personal guess-timation:

25K sub x 14.99 = 4.5M a year
50K sub x 14.99 = 9.0M a year

donger56 said:
I think DAOC was a great game that brought a lot to the MMO genre, but Warhammer Online was a complete disaster so which type of game will we get from Jacobs this time? I hope it's another DAOC that brings some new life to a stale genre, but I'm not betting money on it. I'll wait until next year to see what they release.

Warhammer Online had many cooks in the kitchen and I don't believe MJ was the head Chef, you need to spread the blame around for the initial release gameplay. In CU MJ is the head Chef, if we (the collective) don't like this one I'm pretty sure he'll let us throw pie's at him

Harbinger1975

Have any of you forgotten about Planetside/Planetside 2? That is essentially RvR. NC vs TR vs Vanu. Is it TRUE RvR? I can't tell you. It's PvP. As was said, everyone's definition of PvP (hardcore or otherwise) varies.

Nanulak

Hardcore free for all? If you can pick up and carry several players gear without any encumbrance penalties then it is not hardcore. At least in CU you are forced to make decisions based on your encumbrance and the slowing effects associated with taking all that stuff.

A great article by the way.

To me losing my personal gear is trivial compared to my realm losing their resources and the entire hard earned support system. The support system can include bridges, roads, towers, walls, homes, mines, caravan stops, guild halls, guild banks, crafting stations, resource stockpiles and a whole host of things players have invested many hours in.

To me it is selfish to think my personal gear is all that important.

TigsKC

Another great article, Tim! Congratulations.

I think the subtext here is that PvP and RvR are two different things. And, while there is a part of the population who will play RvR games only for the PvP elements, in reality, they are missing out of most of the game. I love that RvR imposes multiple, imperfect, imbalanced factions against each other. Our world view, culture and way of life against yours. RvR is more akin to a war than a fight; the stakes are much higher in my mind than any FFA PvP game. Call it hardcore or something less polarizing, I don't care. I love the RvR environment!

When it comes to CU vs CF, I am in both corners. While I only have the time/energy to be a CU nerd I think both are laden with lots of goodness and that's why I back and support both games!

Copperfield

i respect this company alot..

Making their own engine from nothing.
intresting elements ingame like the cube system
1-1 communication with their community

They have alot of exeperience regarding balancing the pvp out..

Finally a good pvp game to look forward to.

Cu strenght will ly in cooperation and group play in pvp.. but i forsee alot of tactical elements ingame aswell like castle building and so forth

the people who invested in crowfall bet on the wrong horse :P

collekt

Wizardry said:
I don't consider a game legit unless it has minimum of 10+ realms better if 20+.All of these games have 2-3 realms,hardly worth gaming for.Even better yet is if the realms are player created,so could have 100+ realms and that is the way a game should be designed if aiming for that type of design.
When people played EQ did they really care while gaming that they were on the good side or evil side?No players i would think want their own kingdom/realm to rule over.provide those players the ability to claim a plot of land and  build a kingdom,give them npc's to help build their realm,if they so choose to not use real players.
Surely a game can easily support 100 realms all run by players.Geesh you could fit 20 in one map.Remember the old KOEI games "ROTK/Bandit Kings",that is what Realm conquering was all about but that was a small scale and on older platforms,now a days we can do much better and with more depth.


All I can do is facepalm at your posts. Is there a way to ignore someone so you never see anything they post?

JamesGoblin

grumpy43 said:

donger56 said:
I was interested in this game early on but as things progressed I started to really wonder if what they are doing makes sense. First off they are going with the old school box fee and monthly sub business model. Big mistake imo. I don't see enough people paying a sub for a PvP only MMORPG. I think buy to play would have been a better option only because I hate F2P with the burning heat of a thousand suns.

MJ has said, this is a niche game, I suspect 25K subs keeps the studio healthy and 50K subs is crazy success for a small studio; this also allows the investors to be paid back.

personal guess-timation:

25K sub x 14.99 = 4.5M a year
50K sub x 14.99 = 9.0M a year

donger56 said:
I think DAOC was a great game that brought a lot to the MMO genre, but Warhammer Online was a complete disaster so which type of game will we get from Jacobs this time? I hope it's another DAOC that brings some new life to a stale genre, but I'm not betting money on it. I'll wait until next year to see what they release.

Warhammer Online had many cooks in the kitchen and I don't believe MJ was the head Chef, you need to spread the blame around for the initial release gameplay. In CU MJ is the head Chef, if we (the collective) don't like this one I'm pretty sure he'll let us throw pie's at him

  Speaking of napkin math, CU crossed the 25k backers mark quite some time ago - I believe it's closer to 30k (at this point - in my estimate a year and a half before launch) and will land between 40 and 50k before launch time.

  Based on that, those estimates of yours (even the upper one) seem quite pessimistic to me - that is, even with retention included!?


PS Warhammer had lots and lots of good stuff in it, as a rule neglected and forgotten due to it's general tragic fate. And yes, Mark's credibility took a huge hit - ironically, mostly due to an excellent hyping job he and Paul Barnett did before EA launched that early beta...

Tamanous

I'm feeling that the fact CU isn't hardcore in the traditional sense is why this RvR/pvp game will attract more players than games like Darkfall and MO (that and hopefully it also is a better game overall).

There is indeed an underlying effort but the devs to design in quality of life on top of an intense RvR design. They want you to enjoy the game even if getting beat hard at the realm level. They just don't want the individual player feeling abused through player level mechanics ... even if killed over and over and your castle is razed to the ground.

More hardcore death penalties (imo) are more important in realistic or hardcore pve games where progression in the main carrot ... you are penalized in the area you most care about. In RvR your contribution to your realm is the primary concern and death is an intimate part of the game. The penalty should impact the attrition of your realm and NOT simply slap the player hard. This is the primary mistake of most hardcore pvp games where death is expected and why they fail to attract players (along with not providing enough player governance over pk proliferation).