Cultural taboos actually stop people from doing all kinds of things. While some of them are more acceptable, there are many more that still arent. And just because you may have the freedom to do certain things in your country, I bet you will find, even today, that they are still killed for the same thing elsewhere.
Hence the reason some races may allow some things, while others don't. That is actually far more realistic. For instance, you were killed as a human in Qeynos for practicing necromancy. Yet, you could still be a human necromancer. It was a cultural thing, while it was not among elves.
Magic works better with characters that have a high intelligence, but Trolls start out with -2 to their intelligence stat no matter how many points you apply to it. Therefore, you could make an Troll Mage, but you'd be better off, and be able to cast more powerful spells, if you picked just about any other playable race in the game.
Than what would be the point of making a Troll Mage. Sounds like waste of resources.
This is the argument of the typical 2010's gamer who doesn't understand role playing and only looks at a game from a roll playing aspect.
I'm not saying that the Shadowrun system will ever be used, I'm simply saying I prefer it over others. Today's gamers have no concept of gaming other than min/maxxing a character and going for max DPS.
In the past we would view a Troll Mage as a fun challenge. If you build one and you're still successful at the game, then you've overcome more odds than the player who picked the highest intelligence race and rolled their way through the content.
In the end it's about removing restrictions. Today's MMO's have so many training wheels on them that if it was a bike you could ride the goddamn thing upside down. I'm saying pull those training wheels off, take the guardrails down and let us, the players, make our own decisions about what and how we want to play.
I agree with this to a point. I think lore has to be considered as well. If a certain people do not tolerate members of their race practicing shamanistic "witchcraft", I don't think it should be an option at character creation. However, I wouldn't be against a way via questing to unlock a class that wouldn't be available at the start. Of course, such a trial shouldn't be easy or available at low level, would probably require gaining reputation with a shaman guild and should come with a serious negative alignment hit with your own people.
Cultural taboos don't stop some people in the real world from pursuing their dreams, why should it in a fantasy game?
Uhm, because this isn't the real world? It's a game?
If the lore of the game was based on the lore of the (modern) real world, then that would be fine. However, it's not. It's a fantasy world with fantasy races that have fantasy cultures.
The beautiful thing about entertainment, is if you don't agree with the ideologies exhibited in a game, tv show, movie, etc... you simply don't participate in it.
The principle is the same whether applied to real world of game world. I find it confusing at best and down right lazy at worst that so many developers can't be bothered to really add diversity to their game systems, especially in comparison to MMORPGs that came out decades ago. I guess that's the difference between those who believe quality sells over the long term vs. the short term bursts that come from corner cutting and simplifying.
Magic works better with characters that have a high intelligence, but Trolls start out with -2 to their intelligence stat no matter how many points you apply to it. Therefore, you could make an Troll Mage, but you'd be better off, and be able to cast more powerful spells, if you picked just about any other playable race in the game.
Than what would be the point of making a Troll Mage. Sounds like waste of resources.
This is the argument of the typical 2010's gamer who doesn't understand role playing and only looks at a game from a roll playing aspect.
I'm not saying that the Shadowrun system will ever be used, I'm simply saying I prefer it over others. Today's gamers have no concept of gaming other than min/maxxing a character and going for max DPS.
In the past we would view a Troll Mage as a fun challenge. If you build one and you're still successful at the game, then you've overcome more odds than the player who picked the highest intelligence race and rolled their way through the content.
In the end it's about removing restrictions. Today's MMO's have so many training wheels on them that if it was a bike you could ride the goddamn thing upside down. I'm saying pull those training wheels off, take the guardrails down and let us, the players, make our own decisions about what and how we want to play.
I agree with this to a point. I think lore has to be considered as well. If a certain people do not tolerate members of their race practicing shamanistic "witchcraft", I don't think it should be an option at character creation. However, I wouldn't be against a way via questing to unlock a class that wouldn't be available at the start. Of course, such a trial shouldn't be easy or available at low level, would probably require gaining reputation with a shaman guild and should come with a serious negative alignment hit with your own people.
Cultural taboos don't stop some people in the real world from pursuing their dreams, why should it in a fantasy game?
Uhm, because this isn't the real world? It's a game?
If the lore of the game was based on the lore of the (modern) real world, then that would be fine. However, it's not. It's a fantasy world with fantasy races that have fantasy cultures.
The beautiful thing about entertainment, is if you don't agree with the ideologies exhibited in a game, tv show, movie, etc... you simply don't participate in it.
The principle is the same whether applied to real world of game world. I find it confusing at best and down right lazy at worst that so many developers can't be bothered to really add diversity to their game systems, especially in comparison to MMORPGs that came out decades ago. I guess that's the difference between those who believe quality sells over the long term vs. the short term bursts that come from corner cutting and simplifying.
Wants no diversity between races, but claims to want diversity.
Having multiple races usually doesnt doesn't lead to diversity. Sadly most if not all developers do not take race into account when designing classes. When a gnome warrior fights exactly like an ogre warrior this leads to no diversity besides visual. A reskin gives a false sense of options.
Statistics are also used to give a false sense of diversity. When you have 10 stats but each class only relies on 2 of these stats there is no diversity between members of the same class. If a clerics damage is based solely upon the wisdom stat, even its melee damage, the what purpose do these stats actually serve?
In my opinion, developers have become ever so skilled at deception. They create this massive illusion of choice using gear, attributes, and race.
Well that is true. They could have some flavor between classes of a different race. Usually that equates to racial passive and active abilities though.
The diversity I was referring to was along the lines of lore and the preferences and cultural norms of the races within the world. Permitting or abolishing certain classes or practices would be a form of diversity.
I draw conclusions based on reality,what else would we use to determine ideas?
In reality the idea makes a lot of sense but not entirely.Example it is VERY unlikely you would ever see a NHL hockey player come out of India but it does not mean it is an impossible idea.So my thought on the idea is that yes sort of restrict classes from certain races but not entirely.Perhaps something similar to the way you could have an evil side Froglok or switching from an Evil character to a good character. However or whatever idea is used,it should remain an idea that keeps it a VERY rare occasion where one might break the rule of class restriction.
This would of course need a very thoughtful person to determine the means and systems used,i would expect nothing less than a well thought out idea.
I think i made it clear that i do not agree with all out restrictions but yes restrictions of some sort are a good idea.I can think back to the days when in FFXI a Galkan White mage was unheard of,however after many years it became an idea that people accepted and no longer thought much about restricted ideas.
I have made it clear over the years that i want an IN DEPTH game,many systems.I do not like simple clear cut written in stone ideas that leave no room for thought,like some simpleton idea that a child could think up.This is how i judge games when i look at them and yes i consider myself qualified to determine weather the developer and their employees have the ability to do a game justice within it's systems,including race/classes combat the world etc etc.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Risks! Rewards! Tradeoffs! No training wheels! It can be done if game developers would just try.
I'm also a fan of the Shadowrun system (except the rolling ridiculous numbers of 6 side dice part) In the game I'm designing the difference races will have pros and cons and be drastically different. So you will be able to make a weak melee fighter, but you can use speed and accuracy to your advantage.
Magic works better with characters that have a high intelligence, but Trolls start out with -2 to their intelligence stat no matter how many points you apply to it. Therefore, you could make an Troll Mage, but you'd be better off, and be able to cast more powerful spells, if you picked just about any other playable race in the game.
Than what would be the point of making a Troll Mage. Sounds like waste of resources.
This is the argument of the typical 2010's gamer who doesn't understand role playing and only looks at a game from a roll playing aspect.
I'm not saying that the Shadowrun system will ever be used, I'm simply saying I prefer it over others. Today's gamers have no concept of gaming other than min/maxxing a character and going for max DPS.
In the past we would view a Troll Mage as a fun challenge. If you build one and you're still successful at the game, then you've overcome more odds than the player who picked the highest intelligence race and rolled their way through the content.
In the end it's about removing restrictions. Today's MMO's have so many training wheels on them that if it was a bike you could ride the goddamn thing upside down. I'm saying pull those training wheels off, take the guardrails down and let us, the players, make our own decisions about what and how we want to play.
I agree with this to a point. I think lore has to be considered as well. If a certain people do not tolerate members of their race practicing shamanistic "witchcraft", I don't think it should be an option at character creation. However, I wouldn't be against a way via questing to unlock a class that wouldn't be available at the start. Of course, such a trial shouldn't be easy or available at low level, would probably require gaining reputation with a shaman guild and should come with a serious negative alignment hit with your own people.
Cultural taboos don't stop some people in the real world from pursuing their dreams, why should it in a fantasy game?
Uhm, because this isn't the real world? It's a game?
If the lore of the game was based on the lore of the (modern) real world, then that would be fine. However, it's not. It's a fantasy world with fantasy races that have fantasy cultures.
The beautiful thing about entertainment, is if you don't agree with the ideologies exhibited in a game, tv show, movie, etc... you simply don't participate in it.
The principle is the same whether applied to real world of game world. I find it confusing at best and down right lazy at worst that so many developers can't be bothered to really add diversity to their game systems, especially in comparison to MMORPGs that came out decades ago. I guess that's the difference between those who believe quality sells over the long term vs. the short term bursts that come from corner cutting and simplifying.
No that's just you applying your skewed myopic lens upon everything you see and do.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Magic works better with characters that have a high intelligence, but Trolls start out with -2 to their intelligence stat no matter how many points you apply to it. Therefore, you could make an Troll Mage, but you'd be better off, and be able to cast more powerful spells, if you picked just about any other playable race in the game.
Than what would be the point of making a Troll Mage. Sounds like waste of resources.
This is the argument of the typical 2010's gamer who doesn't understand role playing and only looks at a game from a roll playing aspect.
I'm not saying that the Shadowrun system will ever be used, I'm simply saying I prefer it over others. Today's gamers have no concept of gaming other than min/maxxing a character and going for max DPS.
In the past we would view a Troll Mage as a fun challenge. If you build one and you're still successful at the game, then you've overcome more odds than the player who picked the highest intelligence race and rolled their way through the content.
In the end it's about removing restrictions. Today's MMO's have so many training wheels on them that if it was a bike you could ride the goddamn thing upside down. I'm saying pull those training wheels off, take the guardrails down and let us, the players, make our own decisions about what and how we want to play.
I agree with this to a point. I think lore has to be considered as well. If a certain people do not tolerate members of their race practicing shamanistic "witchcraft", I don't think it should be an option at character creation. However, I wouldn't be against a way via questing to unlock a class that wouldn't be available at the start. Of course, such a trial shouldn't be easy or available at low level, would probably require gaining reputation with a shaman guild and should come with a serious negative alignment hit with your own people.
Cultural taboos don't stop some people in the real world from pursuing their dreams, why should it in a fantasy game?
Uhm, because this isn't the real world? It's a game?
If the lore of the game was based on the lore of the (modern) real world, then that would be fine. However, it's not. It's a fantasy world with fantasy races that have fantasy cultures.
The beautiful thing about entertainment, is if you don't agree with the ideologies exhibited in a game, tv show, movie, etc... you simply don't participate in it.
The principle is the same whether applied to real world of game world. I find it confusing at best and down right lazy at worst that so many developers can't be bothered to really add diversity to their game systems, especially in comparison to MMORPGs that came out decades ago. I guess that's the difference between those who believe quality sells over the long term vs. the short term bursts that come from corner cutting and simplifying.
No that's just you applying your skewed myopic lens upon everything you see and do.
Magic works better with characters that have a high intelligence, but Trolls start out with -2 to their intelligence stat no matter how many points you apply to it. Therefore, you could make an Troll Mage, but you'd be better off, and be able to cast more powerful spells, if you picked just about any other playable race in the game.
Than what would be the point of making a Troll Mage. Sounds like waste of resources.
This is the argument of the typical 2010's gamer who doesn't understand role playing and only looks at a game from a roll playing aspect.
I'm not saying that the Shadowrun system will ever be used, I'm simply saying I prefer it over others. Today's gamers have no concept of gaming other than min/maxxing a character and going for max DPS.
In the past we would view a Troll Mage as a fun challenge. If you build one and you're still successful at the game, then you've overcome more odds than the player who picked the highest intelligence race and rolled their way through the content.
In the end it's about removing restrictions. Today's MMO's have so many training wheels on them that if it was a bike you could ride the goddamn thing upside down. I'm saying pull those training wheels off, take the guardrails down and let us, the players, make our own decisions about what and how we want to play.
I agree with this to a point. I think lore has to be considered as well. If a certain people do not tolerate members of their race practicing shamanistic "witchcraft", I don't think it should be an option at character creation. However, I wouldn't be against a way via questing to unlock a class that wouldn't be available at the start. Of course, such a trial shouldn't be easy or available at low level, would probably require gaining reputation with a shaman guild and should come with a serious negative alignment hit with your own people.
Cultural taboos don't stop some people in the real world from pursuing their dreams, why should it in a fantasy game?
Uhm, because this isn't the real world? It's a game?
If the lore of the game was based on the lore of the (modern) real world, then that would be fine. However, it's not. It's a fantasy world with fantasy races that have fantasy cultures.
The beautiful thing about entertainment, is if you don't agree with the ideologies exhibited in a game, tv show, movie, etc... you simply don't participate in it.
The principle is the same whether applied to real world of game world. I find it confusing at best and down right lazy at worst that so many developers can't be bothered to really add diversity to their game systems, especially in comparison to MMORPGs that came out decades ago. I guess that's the difference between those who believe quality sells over the long term vs. the short term bursts that come from corner cutting and simplifying.
Wants no diversity between races, but claims to want diversity.
If you think limiting classes by race is adding diversity, then you don't understand the term. Racial diversity should be about stats, special abilities, culture and homeland, not which class they can't be.
When you open up race/class combos people just pick the goofiest shit they can come up with. This is why height/weight/hair color choices should also be limited. The "special flower" mentality flows heavy in the RP community and has ruined many a persistent world, if you let it.
If you think limiting classes by race is adding diversity, then you don't understand the term. Racial diversity should be about stats, special abilities, culture and homeland, not which class they can't be.
I always liked the fact that certain classes were limited to certain races or factions.
It also depends on the game and the devs. If you have a one-storyline-fits all, then why bother adding different classes. If you have 1 type of setting, then why bother. If you want to give players an immersive world, enriched with lore and mutitude of settings, classes tied to race would totally make sense.
The min-maxers off course will want to have the best race-class combo, but usually those limited classes already provide the best stats and racials. But why would anyone expect that a pure good race would want to have access to a necromancer class? A betrayal questline could fix that issue, but I really hope that the racials and stats of the race also alter. Why? So other players don't have to worry of best stats and do the betrayal quest aswell and being forced into that.
If you think limiting classes by race is adding diversity, then you don't understand the term. Racial diversity should be about stats, special abilities, culture and homeland, not which class they can't be.
Says you.
Yes, captain obvious, says me. My point of view is no less valid than yours or his and it gets old with the hypocritical behavior of some posters on this site. I gave my point of view like everyone else in this discussion, but I didn't attack anyone else for their point of view. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do expect to be able to voice my opinion and not be ridiculed for it.
You make a great point here and I completely agree with you. In the case of Pen and Paper Shadowrun there were max stat levels for attributes meaning that a Troll, for example, would always have a two point deficit compared to other characters.
Having a lower intelligence was always a hindrance to their play no matter what level they were. This is because intelligence reigns in how powerfully a caster can cast a spell. For instance, if a Mage with a 5 intelligence casts a spell and decides to use 4 dice for damage, then they subtract the (mana) drain of that spell against their fatigue stat. If, however, they decided to cast the spell using six dice, then they would subtract the drain of the spell from their physical damage boxes.
So a character that is forever two points under the maximum stats would always risk hurting themselves physically to cast equally powerful spells. But then again, a Troll has a few hit boxes to spare, so the risk may be worth the reward.
Risks! Rewards! Tradeoffs! No training wheels! It can be done if game developers would just try.
Do you think that would fly with these kids today? They might say sure bring that troll penalty then bitch and moan until the sun goes down about how unfair that is. And the overly sensitive devs would likely cave into them (note: I didn't say all of them would).
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If you think limiting classes by race is adding diversity, then you don't understand the term. Racial diversity should be about stats, special abilities, culture and homeland, not which class they can't be.
Says you.
Yes, captain obvious, says me. My point of view is no less valid than yours or his and it gets old with the hypocritical behavior of some posters on this site. I gave my point of view like everyone else in this discussion, but I didn't attack anyone else for their point of view. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do expect to be able to voice my opinion and not be ridiculed for it.
Yet you were the one throwing around opinions as facts and redefining words and correcting others based on your ridiculous personal definition. You can't really think its OK at this point to lash out at me for stating the obvious. I merely pointed out that its still a valid way of having diversity between races. I'm not against other ways, but it does still serve as a way of creating racial diversity in a fantasy world, regardless of whether you're a fan of it.
We will have class/race restrictions based on the lore of the game (we will release more on this as development progresses), we will not have gender locking or gender restrictions.
I do not like race/class restrictions. While it is not game
breaking for me, in most cases it does not really make sense to me.
No race in any game or based on any lore demonstrated a
complete inability to learn. While one could argue that Ogre’s in EQ were
exceptionally unintelligent in the age that EQ1 took place. They were not retarded to the point that they
could not learn. So while there intelligence was deliberately hindered they did
possess the ability to learn. In addition, they were exposed to the darkelves
who would have provided enough examples of wizardry that would make sense that
an Ogre would be able to pick up on it… eventually…
That’s not to say they would excel at it or be the best at
it, but it would be far from impossible.
Now if we look at Pantheon lore so far. Ogre’s are far from
stupid, They are warlike and militant perhaps even savage, but not stupid.
“The smallest clan of the seven, Black Moon, memorized the
few legible runes from childhood, relying on them for survival more than any
other.”
So one could assume that the ability to memorize the runes
from the tome and utilize those runes would point to some ability at least to
learn and memorize two basic requirements of a mage or wizard.
If we then go further into their mindset, "My foe dies,
or we both do" and ”…an
instinct that welled up in each clan, rising from the soul of every Ogre, male
or female: dominance, by right of conquest.”
Could this not
mean that through any tools necessary, not just physical strength but also
mental strength?
This holds true
to me on any class race combo. There are very few if any exceptions I could
find. As an example there was no reason that a Blood elf in wow BC could not be
a warrior no lore reasons anyway just an artificial balancing issue of how many
classes per race. There were in fact
large numbers of NPC blood elf warriors…
Just like it
would not make sense that gnomes would not have warriors just because they are
small.. can you honestly tell me that any race would have absolutely no need
for basic defenders regardless of their stature.
Or that there
would not be some members of any race willing to delve into the necromantic
arts simply because it is taboo. Humans
were a prime example of this in EQ1 where it was taboo but practiced anyway.
Or that any race would forgo the use of a bow
and arrow just because many of their race had an aptitude for magic?
In general, to
me, adding a limitation to a race class combo simply to create a perception of
diversity between the races with no regard to realism is just silly. Yes this
is a fantasy, and many concessions can be made for the sake of fantasy but that
is not a good reason in my opinion to limit classes to races.
I feel if you
want to generalize a race then do it on something like a generalization of a
races starting stats rather than a false limitation on what skill set they
could possibly learn. Especially in a world where they are exposed to all the
classes and would likely through said exposure be able to learn any class. I
would also assume that that exposure would be well before the time we create our
characters and therefore again in my opinion available at character create.
So I get that Pantheon will have these restrictions. I do not agree with the decision. but again not a game breaker for me either just silly in my opinion.
i like it as long as you can group with every race. sure it makes sense to not allow an ogre to be an intelligence based class but at the same time, if we are going by EQ standards, does it make sense to allow an evil and good race (enemy factions) to group together?
where do you draw the line in terms of staying true to the lore?
EQ limited this with factions and distance. For example, at the low levels, if I was adventuring near to Qeynos my chances of grouping with an Ogre are very small. I'ts a long ways to an Ogre to come. For a new player it's dangerous. And it would be hard to use the merchants and the banker(s) around my area because of faction, so he or she is less likely to be there.
In hte higher levels, I think it becomes more common for good/evil races to group with each other. There're still limits though. I think it was an ok balance. But you bring up a good point and it's thought provoking.
My feeling about gender is I don't care about it. It may be true woman are unlikely to be fighters historically, but MMO's are fictional and even if we WERE making a historical MMO, I don't think it'd be fun for woman. It might not be fun for anyone, since so little choice existed.
Magic works better with characters that have a high intelligence, but Trolls start out with -2 to their intelligence stat no matter how many points you apply to it. Therefore, you could make an Troll Mage, but you'd be better off, and be able to cast more powerful spells, if you picked just about any other playable race in the game.
Than what would be the point of making a Troll Mage. Sounds like waste of resources.
This is the argument of the typical 2010's gamer who doesn't understand role playing and only looks at a game from a roll playing aspect.
I'm not saying that the Shadowrun system will ever be used, I'm simply saying I prefer it over others. Today's gamers have no concept of gaming other than min/maxxing a character and going for max DPS.
In the past we would view a Troll Mage as a fun challenge. If you build one and you're still successful at the game, then you've overcome more odds than the player who picked the highest intelligence race and rolled their way through the content.
In the end it's about removing restrictions. Today's MMO's have so many training wheels on them that if it was a bike you could ride the goddamn thing upside down. I'm saying pull those training wheels off, take the guardrails down and let us, the players, make our own decisions about what and how we want to play.
I agree with this to a point. I think lore has to be considered as well. If a certain people do not tolerate members of their race practicing shamanistic "witchcraft", I don't think it should be an option at character creation. However, I wouldn't be against a way via questing to unlock a class that wouldn't be available at the start. Of course, such a trial shouldn't be easy or available at low level, would probably require gaining reputation with a shaman guild and should come with a serious negative alignment hit with your own people.
Cultural taboos don't stop some people in the real world from pursuing their dreams, why should it in a fantasy game?
Perhaps. But I suspect that some of these people grew up in an environment where mommy didn't say no to them. The everybody gets a trophy generation. The why shouldn't I get my way types. Those who cry at the first hint that it won't go their way.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Comments
Hence the reason some races may allow some things, while others don't. That is actually far more realistic. For instance, you were killed as a human in Qeynos for practicing necromancy. Yet, you could still be a human necromancer. It was a cultural thing, while it was not among elves.
The principle is the same whether applied to real world of game world. I find it confusing at best and down right lazy at worst that so many developers can't be bothered to really add diversity to their game systems, especially in comparison to MMORPGs that came out decades ago. I guess that's the difference between those who believe quality sells over the long term vs. the short term bursts that come from corner cutting and simplifying.
The diversity I was referring to was along the lines of lore and the preferences and cultural norms of the races within the world. Permitting or abolishing certain classes or practices would be a form of diversity.
In reality the idea makes a lot of sense but not entirely.Example it is VERY unlikely you would ever see a NHL hockey player come out of India but it does not mean it is an impossible idea.So my thought on the idea is that yes sort of restrict classes from certain races but not entirely.Perhaps something similar to the way you could have an evil side Froglok or switching from an Evil character to a good character.
However or whatever idea is used,it should remain an idea that keeps it a VERY rare occasion where one might break the rule of class restriction.
This would of course need a very thoughtful person to determine the means and systems used,i would expect nothing less than a well thought out idea.
I think i made it clear that i do not agree with all out restrictions but yes restrictions of some sort are a good idea.I can think back to the days when in FFXI a Galkan White mage was unheard of,however after many years it became an idea that people accepted and no longer thought much about restricted ideas.
I have made it clear over the years that i want an IN DEPTH game,many systems.I do not like simple clear cut written in stone ideas that leave no room for thought,like some simpleton idea that a child could think up.This is how i judge games when i look at them and yes i consider myself qualified to determine weather the developer and their employees have the ability to do a game justice within it's systems,including race/classes combat the world etc etc.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Yeah, right.
If you think limiting classes by race is adding diversity, then you don't understand the term. Racial diversity should be about stats, special abilities, culture and homeland, not which class they can't be.
It also depends on the game and the devs. If you have a one-storyline-fits all, then why bother adding different classes. If you have 1 type of setting, then why bother. If you want to give players an immersive world, enriched with lore and mutitude of settings, classes tied to race would totally make sense.
The min-maxers off course will want to have the best race-class combo, but usually those limited classes already provide the best stats and racials. But why would anyone expect that a pure good race would want to have access to a necromancer class? A betrayal questline could fix that issue, but I really hope that the racials and stats of the race also alter. Why? So other players don't have to worry of best stats and do the betrayal quest aswell and being forced into that.
Yes, captain obvious, says me. My point of view is no less valid than yours or his and it gets old with the hypocritical behavior of some posters on this site. I gave my point of view like everyone else in this discussion, but I didn't attack anyone else for their point of view. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do expect to be able to voice my opinion and not be ridiculed for it.
Do you think that would fly with these kids today? They might say sure bring that troll penalty then bitch and moan until the sun goes down about how unfair that is. And the overly sensitive devs would likely cave into them (note: I didn't say all of them would).
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I do not like race/class restrictions. While it is not game breaking for me, in most cases it does not really make sense to me.
No race in any game or based on any lore demonstrated a complete inability to learn. While one could argue that Ogre’s in EQ were exceptionally unintelligent in the age that EQ1 took place. They were not retarded to the point that they could not learn. So while there intelligence was deliberately hindered they did possess the ability to learn. In addition, they were exposed to the darkelves who would have provided enough examples of wizardry that would make sense that an Ogre would be able to pick up on it… eventually…
That’s not to say they would excel at it or be the best at it, but it would be far from impossible.
Now if we look at Pantheon lore so far. Ogre’s are far from stupid, They are warlike and militant perhaps even savage, but not stupid.
“The smallest clan of the seven, Black Moon, memorized the few legible runes from childhood, relying on them for survival more than any other.”
So one could assume that the ability to memorize the runes from the tome and utilize those runes would point to some ability at least to learn and memorize two basic requirements of a mage or wizard.
If we then go further into their mindset, "My foe dies, or we both do" and ”…an instinct that welled up in each clan, rising from the soul of every Ogre, male or female: dominance, by right of conquest.”
Could this not mean that through any tools necessary, not just physical strength but also mental strength?
This holds true to me on any class race combo. There are very few if any exceptions I could find. As an example there was no reason that a Blood elf in wow BC could not be a warrior no lore reasons anyway just an artificial balancing issue of how many classes per race. There were in fact large numbers of NPC blood elf warriors…
Just like it would not make sense that gnomes would not have warriors just because they are small.. can you honestly tell me that any race would have absolutely no need for basic defenders regardless of their stature.
Or that there would not be some members of any race willing to delve into the necromantic arts simply because it is taboo. Humans were a prime example of this in EQ1 where it was taboo but practiced anyway.
Or that any race would forgo the use of a bow and arrow just because many of their race had an aptitude for magic?
In general, to me, adding a limitation to a race class combo simply to create a perception of diversity between the races with no regard to realism is just silly. Yes this is a fantasy, and many concessions can be made for the sake of fantasy but that is not a good reason in my opinion to limit classes to races.
I feel if you want to generalize a race then do it on something like a generalization of a races starting stats rather than a false limitation on what skill set they could possibly learn. Especially in a world where they are exposed to all the classes and would likely through said exposure be able to learn any class. I would also assume that that exposure would be well before the time we create our characters and therefore again in my opinion available at character create.
So I get that Pantheon will have these restrictions. I do not agree with the decision. but again not a game breaker for me either just silly in my opinion.
In hte higher levels, I think it becomes more common for good/evil races to group with each other. There're still limits though. I think it was an ok balance. But you bring up a good point and it's thought provoking.
My feeling about gender is I don't care about it. It may be true woman are unlikely to be fighters historically, but MMO's are fictional and even if we WERE making a historical MMO, I don't think it'd be fun for woman. It might not be fun for anyone, since so little choice existed.
Perhaps. But I suspect that some of these people grew up in an environment where mommy didn't say no to them. The everybody gets a trophy generation. The why shouldn't I get my way types. Those who cry at the first hint that it won't go their way.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"