@Raidan_EQ ; Agreed on all points. Whereas gear degradation is just a money-sink (rift did this with soul-healing), an exp loss can generate a lot more respect due to the impact on abilities (losing levels) and time spent grouping. I was a lot more cautious about what I did in 1999 vs. what I did in 2015.
And class imbalance is absolutely necessary to maintain a healthy balance of supply and demand. For example: In rift, 5 clerics could clear a dungeon without issue. Because of design like this, clerics were a dime a dozen. This made very boring encounters. Hard to blame the development though... It wasn't until they made warriors into healers and mages into tanks that people stopped bitching about imbalance. Aside from a few specialized skills, group make-up is almost arbitrary. This is fine for a "log-in, zerg, log-out" MMO, but IMO this takes away from the grouping experience.
Bring back the days of the glass cannon and the enchanter.
I just hope the Dev's don't follow his lead or we will have generic mmo number ####
K
None of them will get it. Its like what are parents said to us about when I was your age we used to have to walk 3 miles in the snow to get to school. I guess we are becoming older gamers who are set in our ways and I am only 32 LMAO.
Absolutely must have corpse runs and exp loss, neither are negotiable. I am not against however giving someone a way to retrieve their corpse if after 12-24 hours they still are unable to retrieve it through normal means. Corpses should never decay.
Exp loss is absolutely mandatory, zerging will happen otherwise. This has been tried and tested on so many different EQ Emu servers its not even funny, removing exp loss is disastrous to the EQ formula.
I see you gave me the LOL - I'd like to hear your rebuttal on why you don't agree with my counterpoints. As it stands, no exp loss appears to just be your preference versus the bane of Pantheon's future success.
*edit read Kridak/Yila's posts wrong - didnt read my name as a header. Agreed - many people won't "get" it and unfortunately will continue to try to be the squeaky wheel.
I just have top say one thing because well i want the best game experience i can get. I don't like Raids,imo they are never necessary and will alienate a lot of players all the time.
You are of the minority here. Most players want content that is a challenge for a group.. ie.. raiding.
I don't mind a couple of interesting raid bosses like Vox and Naggy, but I would hate to see Pantheon become a worthless max level raid grinder like WoW. Lets have a game with meaningful content for groups of all sizes and keep that "end-game" raid treadmill to a minimum.
I find it funny that you mention 2 bosses from Everquest, where end game was the main point. Raiding was the only way to get best gear and I hope Pantheon is same.
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
I support stiff death penalties, xp loss, level loss, and naked corpse runs. It makes the world more threatening and thereby makes it more fun (for me anyway). [Not sure that's ultimately gonna fly with a lot of people new to games of this model, but that's my orientation]
But I do not support the "loss of corpse with all your stuff." What if I die in game, and before I can retrieve my body I have to do something important in real life, like attend a real funeral? Or maybe I am in a car accident and am put in the hospital? I should not lose everything on my body for that.
If it was a reasonable time, like a month, maybe. Or they can do something else to make it a pain in the ass. But loss of all "on corpse" items in a short time period is too much and always was.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Glad you are not making this game going by your so called better ways or we would end up with your beloved EQN, oh wait there is no EQN.
Don't like the death penalty then play something else.
Even EQ1 lowered the death penalty so low you cant see your exp bar move from a death. 100% exp return on res. Harsh exp loss in a MMO is not longer needed. It adds nothing to the game and on a few bad nights because of other people actions, net connections and rude people PKing with trains. Will just make people quit and lower the population. This is not a good thing for this game.
Yes, and they did that YEARS after the games release after more than 70% of the playerbase quit, and they were trying to appeal to ultra casuals in an attempt to bolster their subscriber base.
This is exactly what "modern" mmos do and they can't retain players. Like Dullahan said, if thats what you want, you have a hundred options to chose from.
It's just not gonna happen in Pantheon, It flies in the face of every core tenet they have, primarily that of risk/reward.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
God i hope VR does not wuss out for the folks who want no risk / reward.
Will make this game just like all the other pieces of shit out there now.
I would like a challenging game where mistakes have actual consequences.
There are plenty of ways to add risk, without taking away character progress, it's also quite a cheap way to add longevity. There are better ways of doing that... post "death" wounds as an example. Add utility to classes by incorporating such systems into interdependency. WHen you die you must seek out specific classes to heal different wounds, which adds risk to death, as you can't just return to battle (which can create more downtime than simple xp/level loss) , it adds more need to socialize, it adds more functionality to classes.
Xp loss promotes nothing outside of more grind.
Just because a game featured something and that game was good doesn't mean that mechanic was good, nor that you need it for a similar experience.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
A lot of these responses remind me how we got something like Wildstar, which this could quite possibly be the indie version of such a thing, too strict an adherence to one set buzzword, and that's exactly what it will be. Too much focus on being hardcore, not enough on whether it's fun.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
A lot of these responses remind me how we got something like Wildstar, which this could quite possibly be the indie version of such a thing, too strict an adherence to one set buzzword, and that's exactly what it will be. Too much focus on being hardcore, not enough on whether it's fun.
I've seen Pantheon likened to Wildstar many times, but Wildstar was just another run of the mill game with poor combat. It didn't take an hour of watching a Wildstar stream in beta to know it would be something people would tire of quickly.
However, watching just an hour of Pantheon, in alpha, showed me a game that could be amazing, particularly the combat gameplay. It was just a night and day difference from the run of the mill MMOs being offered in the last decade. Harsh penalties or not.
I'm all for harsh penalties. Just don't make the groups suffer by waiting 5 to 10 minuets for someone to return.
This causes group anger and makes the player feel like quitting......Anything but long wait times for a players return...Anything !
Well, if you're in a group, it is likely you will have a healer, and since this is Pantheon and not Everquest, I would hope that all "healer" classes would have some form of resurrection. This alleviates the group grief, but keeps the solo player grief intact, because if you dared to venture there alone, you should be punished if you fail.
A lot of these responses remind me how we got something like Wildstar, which this could quite possibly be the indie version of such a thing, too strict an adherence to one set buzzword, and that's exactly what it will be. Too much focus on being hardcore, not enough on whether it's fun.
I've seen Pantheon likened to Wildstar many times, but Wildstar was just another run of the mill game with poor combat. It didn't take an hour of watching a Wildstar stream in beta to know it would be something people would tire of quickly.
However, watching just an hour of Pantheon, in alpha, showed me a game that could be amazing, particularly the combat gameplay. It was just a night and day difference from the run of the mill MMOs being offered in the last decade. Harsh penalties or not.
I like how you pick this post to reply to but not the one filled with ideas on how you can add challenge and penalties without adding grind. Even adding class interdependency. Die from magic you would need to seek out an enchanter/wizard or cleric to heal you wounds. Die from melee death, seek out a druid or shaman. No grind added and the danger/risk is still there. Again, exp loss is a lazy mechanic that adds nothing to the game that cant be done smarter ways. And @Distopia idea adds more depth to the class system.
Don't understand why they don't use a "down" system.
It's such a good compromise.
Health bar reaches zero, go to a downed state. You have 5-10 minutes or something in this state until you die and rez back at the nearest shrine for a corpse run.
At any point during the down state, another player can revive you using either magic or bandages/healing skill/potion etc. but not in combat.
Certain classes can revive in combat with a combat rez, long cooldown.
No penalty for being revived from a down state other than being wounded. Each time you are wounded, a certain % of your health bar becomes wounded. You take 100% extra damage to HP when wounded.
So you go down in combat, after being resuscitated the first 20% of your health bar is wounded. So instead of that first attack that hits you taking 100 HP off your bar, it takes 200.
Players that become more than 50% wounded will incur additional penalties, such as movement/attack speed debuffs, more susceptible to bleed/poison attacks, etc.
In-combat HP loss can be healed by magic, wounds can only be healed outside of combat by resting/camping or by using certain potions, magic, healing abilities.
No in-combat healing outside of magic/spells. (Seriously, drinking a potion or applying bandages in combat is stupid as shit mechanic.)
If your whole party goes down, you can wait/hope for a passerby to resuscitate, or respawn back at the bind point together.
Respawning does not cause wounds (new body), but some XP loss and you must corpse run to retrieve non-bound items and inventory.
Players primary gear can always be bound, your primary weapon(s) & armor/clothes, etc. but any loot/treasure you are carrying in inventory cannot be bound until equipped, and can only be bound in town. (You always have access to your primary/main set of equipped gear.)
Taking hits damages equipped gear. Gear can be repaired, gear that falls below a certain damaged % will take durability damage, which can only be repaired a certain number of times before overall durability is reduced. Items with low durability take more damage faster. (So you never lose gear, but it makes it really hard/expensive to maintain and keep using, encouraging replacement but not forcing it.)
While down, some enemies (aggressive beasts and evil monsters) may try and kill you, preventing a resuscitation. Effective crowd control/taunting/off-tanking etc. can keep mobs from executing party members until you are able to resuscitate them.
The most powerful healing classes can resurrect a player from the killed state, eliminating the corpse run, but player retains any/all wounds and suffers same XP loss as if respawned at shrine.
He does have a point about group content to the detriment of raid. However, VR has said in no uncertain terms that raiding will not be the focus of the game.
As to your second point, yes, there is a line to be drawn. But I have argued this in the past. The issue is doing anything to the complete exclusion of one playstyle or another. Or I should say the de facto exclusion. WoW is a great example. The emphasis was so heavily towards solo questing to level that if you grouped and ran dungeons to level you would get completely left in the dust by your friends. I had exactly this happen as me and a buddy went and ran a mid 20's dungeon, and in the 3 or so hours of us running it, our other friend got almost 4 levels ahead of us.
So to be more clear, raiding, soloing, etc, absolutely should exist, and should be a viable path to advancement. However given that the focus of this game is grouping, it should not be the primary or the most efficient form of advancement.
Many people don't realize EQ was this way. You could solo, you could make levels, it wasn't insanely slow, but it was significantly enough slower than grouping that it properly incentivized grouping.
I will agree with you that Soloing should be very slow compared to group content in MMOs. That's why when I post what WOW should do and go back to Vanilla I say that groups that run instances should get more XP than people who quest. Now that would allow people like myself who might get 1 to 2 hours to play Mon - Thur to do something to progress my character without being forced to group. While it is not ideal it still progressing.
The problem I have with the death penalties is some people will never learn even if they are harsh. So it's pointless to make them harsh. Also it would keep people like me during my MC days to try a boss more than 1 or 2 times if it would take me 3 hours of farming to regain XP. I would just quit because I like end game and having to wipe during the learning phase of end game is important and making it so its even harder than that is pointless. I just wouldn't do it. But like you said the real key is making players better at grouping. Which could easily be done by increasing XP in dungeons, this would make more people go and run them and not solo if they want to get to end game. Now if a person wants to truly be solo then they would solo all the time and not care about end game.
I did play a like EQ and didnt like it as much as UO. Now in UO I grouped with people to lower my risk of dying because some risk were high. But having friends make the risk much lower and we piled on the gold much faster that way. The same was said in SWG, going out killing stuff with friends made it much easier. I just didnt like the forced grouping in EQ. Though I did like it in FFXI. I dont know why but FFXI was fun to me outside of the crappy drops and all that.
Watching that stream made me want to turn back the clock. I never did play EQ1, but vanguard was the most fun I had in a game by far. The only thing that I would have changed about Vanguard was a button to turn off xp so I wouldn't out lvl any dungeons.
They actually put that in at one point. It was a buff available to everybody that gave you -100% XP.
Up to this point I had about half an eye on Pantheon. I was never an EQ player, so the nostalgia button doesn't do anything for me. And I'm not sure the old school gameplay will really work for me. But I loved Vanguard, and what I saw on the stream impressed me. It's clearly not ready, but it's just as clearly come a LONG way.
My wife watched the video too and when she hear XP Loss she said hell no. She played AA and hated loosen levels. Me I played UO and FFXI and I can tell you if you think harsh Death penalties will make better players it will just do 2 things. Make people quit and make people not even try to play the game. While yes Pantheon is a niche game. Too many of these niche games are trying to copy old school ideas that kept many people away from these games. In todays MMO world you cannot be that exclusive.
Hell I had several friends watch a few who played UO, EQ, or FFXI and even they were like.... Yea no thanks I am not doing corpse runs and EXP loss. But most of them did say if they have to spend any length of time learning a boss fight like in FFXI, EQ1, or even Vanilla WOW the death penalties will keep people from even being involved.
Yet numerous MMORPGs maintained 10s, even 100s of thousands of players for a decade or longer, even with a death penalty/xp loss in place. Even as newer MMOs with lower, or no penalties cropped up around them. Some of them are still going and have a player base. Clearly it wasn't as big a problem for many others as it is for you or your wife. You should really avoid trying to use yourself, or your wife, or anyone else you know as the standard bearer of "what people will accept or enjoy".
As for people not playing or walking away from MMOs... People have cited everything from the graphics, or the animations, or the combat system, or the crafting, or not enough RP elements, etc as reasons for not playing, or not staying. There's a point in there, and I'm sure I don't have to explain it.
So, perhaps the conclusion to draw from it is Pantheon may not be for you or your wife, but it will certainly be for plenty of others. And that's fine, as it happens to fall perfectly in line with VR's view that MMORPGs should focus on a core type of player, seeking specific kinds of experiences in their MMORPGs, rather than trying to "appeal to everyone".
Also, death penalties absolutely do make better players, I'd say objectively so. Even the crappier players in a MMO with a DP are better than those in MMOs with out it. Why? Because death penalties suck - which is exactly the point of them - people want to avoid them, and so they are more careful in how they play.
If you realize trying to bash through a brick wall with your head is getting you nowhere, but leaving you with welts and headaches and making your head bleed... you don't say "Well, clearly they need to make this wall out of a softer material so I don't injure myself while using my head to break through it". You realize, "hmm.. okay.. clearly, smashing my head into this wall is not going to work, and it's messing me up. I need to find another way to break through, or get around it."
That's the purpose death penalties serve. It's not to arbitrarily punish players for failing. It's to make them play more carefully and strategically, so they don't die in the first place. Yes dying sucks... because you're not supposed to die!
Also, in MMOs without death penalties, players don't play better because they don't have to. Doesn't matter if they die 10 times to some enemy because they just keep running in face first without thinking it through. Why bother being careful when there's no penalty for failing to do so?
Finally, saying that
No point in saying much more than the above, people who don't like the death system can play many of the other MMOs that have no risk vs reward.
Good thing Pantheon is a niche game but now EQN has gone me will have the people who like the changes they were going to make to the EQ legacy.
Brad and Co will stick to there vision of Pantheon.
I hate to say it but you guys really love your rose tinted glasses. I use my self as an example because I am one of the first MMO players (Even though there was around 100K of us), because I started with UO shortly after it released. I played with so many people and can tell you that Death Penalties dont mean shit. It is just a small handful of people who really think they mattered. Today's UO gear lost is why I wouldnt even play on siege perilous today because I know better. It's only designed to piss you off that is it. So you can go on and on about how it made better players. It Dont. Some players like myself it will ONLY because I hate dying, but the vast majority of MMO players Dont learn to be better. They have to be willing to want to be better. A in game death penalty will do nothing but piss them off or make them quit if you dont like it.
My wife is a good example because she started playing MMOs with WOW. Just like the majority of MMO players today. She seen the EXP loss in AA and hated it and quit because she was like if she is going to siege a castle at max level she does not want to delevel because players will die in a dungeon at a high level where people have to die a few times to learn a boss then she will not run it unless the boss will give back the full XP or more. Because wiping is a part of learning boss fights.
A lot of these responses remind me how we got something like Wildstar, which this could quite possibly be the indie version of such a thing, too strict an adherence to one set buzzword, and that's exactly what it will be. Too much focus on being hardcore, not enough on whether it's fun.
I've seen Pantheon likened to Wildstar many times, but Wildstar was just another run of the mill game with poor combat. It didn't take an hour of watching a Wildstar stream in beta to know it would be something people would tire of quickly.
However, watching just an hour of Pantheon, in alpha, showed me a game that could be amazing, particularly the combat gameplay. It was just a night and day difference from the run of the mill MMOs being offered in the last decade. Harsh penalties or not.
I like how you pick this post to reply to but not the one filled with ideas on how you can add challenge and penalties without adding grind. Even adding class interdependency. Die from magic you would need to seek out an enchanter/wizard or cleric to heal you wounds. Die from melee death, seek out a druid or shaman. No grind added and the danger/risk is still there. Again, exp loss is a lazy mechanic that adds nothing to the game that cant be done smarter ways. And @Distopia idea adds more depth to the class system.
You keep calling it a lazy mechanic but I don't see why they should reinvent the wheel with a mechanic that works. I don't see why you keep beating the drum over this. Why would I want to seek out a specific class based on the way I died? Why would my method of death affect me after I have respawned??? Isn't it straight forward to go get a rez @ 80 or 90% XP recovery? Doesn't the death penalty of xp loss already make people less inclined to charge in blind and think first (which is the goal)?? Lets not reinvent the wheel please.
A lot of these responses remind me how we got something like Wildstar, which this could quite possibly be the indie version of such a thing, too strict an adherence to one set buzzword, and that's exactly what it will be. Too much focus on being hardcore, not enough on whether it's fun.
I've seen Pantheon likened to Wildstar many times, but Wildstar was just another run of the mill game with poor combat. It didn't take an hour of watching a Wildstar stream in beta to know it would be something people would tire of quickly.
However, watching just an hour of Pantheon, in alpha, showed me a game that could be amazing, particularly the combat gameplay. It was just a night and day difference from the run of the mill MMOs being offered in the last decade. Harsh penalties or not.
I like how you pick this post to reply to but not the one filled with ideas on how you can add challenge and penalties without adding grind. Even adding class interdependency. Die from magic you would need to seek out an enchanter/wizard or cleric to heal you wounds. Die from melee death, seek out a druid or shaman. No grind added and the danger/risk is still there. Again, exp loss is a lazy mechanic that adds nothing to the game that cant be done smarter ways. And @Distopia idea adds more depth to the class system.
I disagree. Raiden kindly took the time to explain just why its a good mechanic, and still very important. I like how you side-stepped his post to respond to me again, as if your non-solutions and suggestion to lessen the penalty wasn't already thoroughly trounced.
A lot of these responses remind me how we got something like Wildstar, which this could quite possibly be the indie version of such a thing, too strict an adherence to one set buzzword, and that's exactly what it will be. Too much focus on being hardcore, not enough on whether it's fun.
I've seen Pantheon likened to Wildstar many times, but Wildstar was just another run of the mill game with poor combat. It didn't take an hour of watching a Wildstar stream in beta to know it would be something people would tire of quickly.
However, watching just an hour of Pantheon, in alpha, showed me a game that could be amazing, particularly the combat gameplay. It was just a night and day difference from the run of the mill MMOs being offered in the last decade. Harsh penalties or not.
I like how you pick this post to reply to but not the one filled with ideas on how you can add challenge and penalties without adding grind. Even adding class interdependency. Die from magic you would need to seek out an enchanter/wizard or cleric to heal you wounds. Die from melee death, seek out a druid or shaman. No grind added and the danger/risk is still there. Again, exp loss is a lazy mechanic that adds nothing to the game that cant be done smarter ways. And @Distopia idea adds more depth to the class system.
I disagree. Raiden kindly took the time to explain just why its a good mechanic, and still very important. I like how you side-stepped his post to respond to me again, as if your non-solutions and suggestion to lessen the penalty wasn't already thoroughly trounced.
Trounced only in your mind. I will be posting much on this topic as I feel strongly about it and no one here has given one good reason why its worth keeping. Other than the same mantra that it adds risk and fear. Risk and fear can be added other ways without adding grind. Adding grind to a game for the sake of grind is again, dumb and lazy. People today expect developers to not just plop something in their face and say, we used it before so its worth using again. Why? Is the question people will ask when they play the game and if they cant see it adding to their game play time, they will quit. I want to see this game make it and I think one of the best ways to see that happen is to come up with as many ways exp loss can be replaced with something smarter. I only hope the devs are smart enough to ask each other. Is there a smarter way we can do this?
So to be more clear, raiding, soloing, etc, absolutely should exist, and should be a viable path to advancement. However given that the focus of this game is grouping, it should not be the primary or the most efficient form of advancement.
So you would be ok with it if small group content was the most efficient method to gain high end advancement? If the "end-game" progression was primarily centered around small groups and multi-group raids were actually a little less efficient way to get that high end equipment?
I mean, if the focus of this game is grouping then shouldn't the focus of the game always be grouping? Not just while you are leveling up but at the end-game too?
So to be more clear, raiding, soloing, etc, absolutely should exist, and should be a viable path to advancement. However given that the focus of this game is grouping, it should not be the primary or the most efficient form of advancement.
So you would be ok with it if small group content was the most efficient method to gain high end advancement? If the "end-game" progression was primarily centered around small groups and multi-group raids were actually a little less efficient way to get that high end equipment?
I mean, if the focus of this game is grouping then shouldn't the focus of the game always be grouping? Not just while you are leveling up but at the end-game too?
Raiding is only at "end-game" because of the inefficiencies created by linear statistical progression - leveling up systems.
Like, if you have 50 levels in your game, the general group size is 5 players, you can't put a raid at level 30 with like 10-20 players as a part of the level up process, participation would be WAY too low to be effective. Ya know?
Watching that stream made me want to turn back the clock. I never did play EQ1, but vanguard was the most fun I had in a game by far. The only thing that I would have changed about Vanguard was a button to turn off xp so I wouldn't out lvl any dungeons.
They actually put that in at one point. It was a buff available to everybody that gave you -100% XP.
Up to this point I had about half an eye on Pantheon. I was never an EQ player, so the nostalgia button doesn't do anything for me. And I'm not sure the old school gameplay will really work for me. But I loved Vanguard, and what I saw on the stream impressed me. It's clearly not ready, but it's just as clearly come a LONG way.
My wife watched the video too and when she hear XP Loss she said hell no. She played AA and hated loosen levels. Me I played UO and FFXI and I can tell you if you think harsh Death penalties will make better players it will just do 2 things. Make people quit and make people not even try to play the game. While yes Pantheon is a niche game. Too many of these niche games are trying to copy old school ideas that kept many people away from these games. In todays MMO world you cannot be that exclusive.
Hell I had several friends watch a few who played UO, EQ, or FFXI and even they were like.... Yea no thanks I am not doing corpse runs and EXP loss. But most of them did say if they have to spend any length of time learning a boss fight like in FFXI, EQ1, or even Vanilla WOW the death penalties will keep people from even being involved.
Yet numerous MMORPGs maintained 10s, even 100s of thousands of players for a decade or longer, even with a death penalty/xp loss in place. Even as newer MMOs with lower, or no penalties cropped up around them. Some of them are still going and have a player base. Clearly it wasn't as big a problem for many others as it is for you or your wife. You should really avoid trying to use yourself, or your wife, or anyone else you know as the standard bearer of "what people will accept or enjoy".
As for people not playing or walking away from MMOs... People have cited everything from the graphics, or the animations, or the combat system, or the crafting, or not enough RP elements, etc as reasons for not playing, or not staying. There's a point in there, and I'm sure I don't have to explain it.
So, perhaps the conclusion to draw from it is Pantheon may not be for you or your wife, but it will certainly be for plenty of others. And that's fine, as it happens to fall perfectly in line with VR's view that MMORPGs should focus on a core type of player, seeking specific kinds of experiences in their MMORPGs, rather than trying to "appeal to everyone".
Also, death penalties absolutely do make better players, I'd say objectively so. Even the crappier players in a MMO with a DP are better than those in MMOs with out it. Why? Because death penalties suck - which is exactly the point of them - people want to avoid them, and so they are more careful in how they play.
If you realize trying to bash through a brick wall with your head is getting you nowhere, but leaving you with welts and headaches and making your head bleed... you don't say "Well, clearly they need to make this wall out of a softer material so I don't injure myself while using my head to break through it". You realize, "hmm.. okay.. clearly, smashing my head into this wall is not going to work, and it's messing me up. I need to find another way to break through, or get around it."
That's the purpose death penalties serve. It's not to arbitrarily punish players for failing. It's to make them play more carefully and strategically, so they don't die in the first place. Yes dying sucks... because you're not supposed to die!
Also, in MMOs without death penalties, players don't play better because they don't have to. Doesn't matter if they die 10 times to some enemy because they just keep running in face first without thinking it through. Why bother being careful when there's no penalty for failing to do so?
Finally, saying that
No point in saying much more than the above, people who don't like the death system can play many of the other MMOs that have no risk vs reward.
Good thing Pantheon is a niche game but now EQN has gone me will have the people who like the changes they were going to make to the EQ legacy.
Brad and Co will stick to there vision of Pantheon.
I hate to say it but you guys really love your rose tinted glasses. I use my self as an example because I am one of the first MMO players (Even though there was around 100K of us), because I started with UO shortly after it released. I played with so many people and can tell you that Death Penalties dont mean shit. It is just a small handful of people who really think they mattered. Today's UO gear lost is why I wouldnt even play on siege perilous today because I know better. It's only designed to piss you off that is it. So you can go on and on about how it made better players. It Dont. Some players like myself it will ONLY because I hate dying, but the vast majority of MMO players Dont learn to be better. They have to be willing to want to be better. A in game death penalty will do nothing but piss them off or make them quit if you dont like it.
My wife is a good example because she started playing MMOs with WOW. Just like the majority of MMO players today. She seen the EXP loss in AA and hated it and quit because she was like if she is going to siege a castle at max level she does not want to delevel because players will die in a dungeon at a high level where people have to die a few times to learn a boss then she will not run it unless the boss will give back the full XP or more. Because wiping is a part of learning boss fights.
I disagree with you completely. You are actually contradicting yourself so your credibility is lost. In one sentence you say death penalties don't make better players followed by "Some players like myself it will ONLY because I hate dying". Huh?! So.. other players LIKE dying and it won't help them?? Seriously, this makes no sense. It either does or it does not... and in your case, you are admitting that it made you a better player. So... I'm a little confused at what your argument is here.
Regarding your wife... sounds like this won't be a game for her. Which is fine.. .because there are plenty of MMOs out there without death penalties.
EQ1 had a light death penalty compared to some MUDs and GMUDs I have played .
My expectations are that the game be fun even if it is in a raw state.. And plenty of small and full group content. I prefer 2 or 3 person group content over trying to come up with a lot of solo content ( that is unless the lack of population calls for solo content ).
Watching that stream made me want to turn back the clock. I never did play EQ1, but vanguard was the most fun I had in a game by far. The only thing that I would have changed about Vanguard was a button to turn off xp so I wouldn't out lvl any dungeons.
They actually put that in at one point. It was a buff available to everybody that gave you -100% XP.
Up to this point I had about half an eye on Pantheon. I was never an EQ player, so the nostalgia button doesn't do anything for me. And I'm not sure the old school gameplay will really work for me. But I loved Vanguard, and what I saw on the stream impressed me. It's clearly not ready, but it's just as clearly come a LONG way.
My wife watched the video too and when she hear XP Loss she said hell no. She played AA and hated loosen levels. Me I played UO and FFXI and I can tell you if you think harsh Death penalties will make better players it will just do 2 things. Make people quit and make people not even try to play the game. While yes Pantheon is a niche game. Too many of these niche games are trying to copy old school ideas that kept many people away from these games. In todays MMO world you cannot be that exclusive.
Hell I had several friends watch a few who played UO, EQ, or FFXI and even they were like.... Yea no thanks I am not doing corpse runs and EXP loss. But most of them did say if they have to spend any length of time learning a boss fight like in FFXI, EQ1, or even Vanilla WOW the death penalties will keep people from even being involved.
Yet numerous MMORPGs maintained 10s, even 100s of thousands of players for a decade or longer, even with a death penalty/xp loss in place. Even as newer MMOs with lower, or no penalties cropped up around them. Some of them are still going and have a player base. Clearly it wasn't as big a problem for many others as it is for you or your wife. You should really avoid trying to use yourself, or your wife, or anyone else you know as the standard bearer of "what people will accept or enjoy".
As for people not playing or walking away from MMOs... People have cited everything from the graphics, or the animations, or the combat system, or the crafting, or not enough RP elements, etc as reasons for not playing, or not staying. There's a point in there, and I'm sure I don't have to explain it.
So, perhaps the conclusion to draw from it is Pantheon may not be for you or your wife, but it will certainly be for plenty of others. And that's fine, as it happens to fall perfectly in line with VR's view that MMORPGs should focus on a core type of player, seeking specific kinds of experiences in their MMORPGs, rather than trying to "appeal to everyone".
Also, death penalties absolutely do make better players, I'd say objectively so. Even the crappier players in a MMO with a DP are better than those in MMOs with out it. Why? Because death penalties suck - which is exactly the point of them - people want to avoid them, and so they are more careful in how they play.
If you realize trying to bash through a brick wall with your head is getting you nowhere, but leaving you with welts and headaches and making your head bleed... you don't say "Well, clearly they need to make this wall out of a softer material so I don't injure myself while using my head to break through it". You realize, "hmm.. okay.. clearly, smashing my head into this wall is not going to work, and it's messing me up. I need to find another way to break through, or get around it."
That's the purpose death penalties serve. It's not to arbitrarily punish players for failing. It's to make them play more carefully and strategically, so they don't die in the first place. Yes dying sucks... because you're not supposed to die!
Also, in MMOs without death penalties, players don't play better because they don't have to. Doesn't matter if they die 10 times to some enemy because they just keep running in face first without thinking it through. Why bother being careful when there's no penalty for failing to do so?
Finally, saying that
No point in saying much more than the above, people who don't like the death system can play many of the other MMOs that have no risk vs reward.
Good thing Pantheon is a niche game but now EQN has gone me will have the people who like the changes they were going to make to the EQ legacy.
Brad and Co will stick to there vision of Pantheon.
I hate to say it but you guys really love your rose tinted glasses. I use my self as an example because I am one of the first MMO players (Even though there was around 100K of us), because I started with UO shortly after it released. I played with so many people and can tell you that Death Penalties dont mean shit. It is just a small handful of people who really think they mattered. Today's UO gear lost is why I wouldnt even play on siege perilous today because I know better. It's only designed to piss you off that is it. So you can go on and on about how it made better players. It Dont. Some players like myself it will ONLY because I hate dying, but the vast majority of MMO players Dont learn to be better. They have to be willing to want to be better. A in game death penalty will do nothing but piss them off or make them quit if you dont like it.
My wife is a good example because she started playing MMOs with WOW. Just like the majority of MMO players today. She seen the EXP loss in AA and hated it and quit because she was like if she is going to siege a castle at max level she does not want to delevel because players will die in a dungeon at a high level where people have to die a few times to learn a boss then she will not run it unless the boss will give back the full XP or more. Because wiping is a part of learning boss fights.
I disagree with you completely. You are actually contradicting yourself so your credibility is lost. In one sentence you say death penalties don't make better players followed by "Some players like myself it will ONLY because I hate dying". Huh?! So.. other players LIKE dying and it won't help them?? Seriously, this makes no sense. It either does or it does not... and in your case, you are admitting that it made you a better player. So... I'm a little confused at what your argument is here.
Regarding your wife... sounds like this won't be a game for her. Which is fine.. .because there are plenty of MMOs out there without death penalties.
Dismissing people's thoughts with go else where because there are other games out there, just shows how weak your footing is on the topic and is also rude. You have nothing to support your point of view other than a mantra it adds risk and fear. So in instead you dismiss people thinking your post has depth. It does not.
So to be more clear, raiding, soloing, etc, absolutely should exist, and should be a viable path to advancement. However given that the focus of this game is grouping, it should not be the primary or the most efficient form of advancement.
So you would be ok with it if small group content was the most efficient method to gain high end advancement? If the "end-game" progression was primarily centered around small groups and multi-group raids were actually a little less efficient way to get that high end equipment?
I mean, if the focus of this game is grouping then shouldn't the focus of the game always be grouping? Not just while you are leveling up but at the end-game too?
Raiding is only at "end-game" because of the inefficiencies created by linear statistical progression - leveling up systems.
Like, if you have 50 levels in your game, the general group size is 5 players, you can't put a raid at level 30 with like 10-20 players as a part of the level up process, participation would be WAY too low to be effective. Ya know?
Sure, but that doesn't really answer the question I put forth.
Comments
Agreed on all points.
Whereas gear degradation is just a money-sink (rift did this with soul-healing), an exp loss can generate a lot more respect due to the impact on abilities (losing levels) and time spent grouping. I was a lot more cautious about what I did in 1999 vs. what I did in 2015.
And class imbalance is absolutely necessary to maintain a healthy balance of supply and demand. For example: In rift, 5 clerics could clear a dungeon without issue. Because of design like this, clerics were a dime a dozen. This made very boring encounters. Hard to blame the development though... It wasn't until they made warriors into healers and mages into tanks that people stopped bitching about imbalance. Aside from a few specialized skills, group make-up is almost arbitrary. This is fine for a "log-in, zerg, log-out" MMO, but IMO this takes away from the grouping experience.
Bring back the days of the glass cannon and the enchanter.
Exp loss is absolutely mandatory, zerging will happen otherwise. This has been tried and tested on so many different EQ Emu servers its not even funny, removing exp loss is disastrous to the EQ formula.
I see you gave me the LOL - I'd like to hear your rebuttal on why you don't agree with my counterpoints. As it stands, no exp loss appears to just be your preference versus the bane of Pantheon's future success.
*edit read Kridak/Yila's posts wrong - didnt read my name as a header. Agreed - many people won't "get" it and unfortunately will continue to try to be the squeaky wheel.
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
But I do not support the "loss of corpse with all your stuff." What if I die in game, and before I can retrieve my body I have to do something important in real life, like attend a real funeral? Or maybe I am in a car accident and am put in the hospital? I should not lose everything on my body for that.
If it was a reasonable time, like a month, maybe. Or they can do something else to make it a pain in the ass. But loss of all "on corpse" items in a short time period is too much and always was.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
This is exactly what "modern" mmos do and they can't retain players. Like Dullahan said, if thats what you want, you have a hundred options to chose from.
It's just not gonna happen in Pantheon, It flies in the face of every core tenet they have, primarily that of risk/reward.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Xp loss promotes nothing outside of more grind.
Just because a game featured something and that game was good doesn't mean that mechanic was good, nor that you need it for a similar experience.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
However, watching just an hour of Pantheon, in alpha, showed me a game that could be amazing, particularly the combat gameplay. It was just a night and day difference from the run of the mill MMOs being offered in the last decade. Harsh penalties or not.
I'm all for harsh penalties. Just don't make the groups suffer by waiting 5 to 10 minuets for someone to return.
This causes group anger and makes the player feel like quitting......Anything but long wait times for a players return...Anything !
It's such a good compromise.
Health bar reaches zero, go to a downed state. You have 5-10 minutes or something in this state until you die and rez back at the nearest shrine for a corpse run.
At any point during the down state, another player can revive you using either magic or bandages/healing skill/potion etc. but not in combat.
Certain classes can revive in combat with a combat rez, long cooldown.
No penalty for being revived from a down state other than being wounded. Each time you are wounded, a certain % of your health bar becomes wounded. You take 100% extra damage to HP when wounded.
So you go down in combat, after being resuscitated the first 20% of your health bar is wounded. So instead of that first attack that hits you taking 100 HP off your bar, it takes 200.
Players that become more than 50% wounded will incur additional penalties, such as movement/attack speed debuffs, more susceptible to bleed/poison attacks, etc.
In-combat HP loss can be healed by magic, wounds can only be healed outside of combat by resting/camping or by using certain potions, magic, healing abilities.
No in-combat healing outside of magic/spells. (Seriously, drinking a potion or applying bandages in combat is stupid as shit mechanic.)
If your whole party goes down, you can wait/hope for a passerby to resuscitate, or respawn back at the bind point together.
Respawning does not cause wounds (new body), but some XP loss and you must corpse run to retrieve non-bound items and inventory.
Players primary gear can always be bound, your primary weapon(s) & armor/clothes, etc. but any loot/treasure you are carrying in inventory cannot be bound until equipped, and can only be bound in town. (You always have access to your primary/main set of equipped gear.)
Taking hits damages equipped gear. Gear can be repaired, gear that falls below a certain damaged % will take durability damage, which can only be repaired a certain number of times before overall durability is reduced. Items with low durability take more damage faster. (So you never lose gear, but it makes it really hard/expensive to maintain and keep using, encouraging replacement but not forcing it.)
While down, some enemies (aggressive beasts and evil monsters) may try and kill you, preventing a resuscitation. Effective crowd control/taunting/off-tanking etc. can keep mobs from executing party members until you are able to resuscitate them.
The most powerful healing classes can resurrect a player from the killed state, eliminating the corpse run, but player retains any/all wounds and suffers same XP loss as if respawned at shrine.
Seriously, MMO design is not that hard...
The problem I have with the death penalties is some people will never learn even if they are harsh. So it's pointless to make them harsh. Also it would keep people like me during my MC days to try a boss more than 1 or 2 times if it would take me 3 hours of farming to regain XP. I would just quit because I like end game and having to wipe during the learning phase of end game is important and making it so its even harder than that is pointless. I just wouldn't do it. But like you said the real key is making players better at grouping. Which could easily be done by increasing XP in dungeons, this would make more people go and run them and not solo if they want to get to end game. Now if a person wants to truly be solo then they would solo all the time and not care about end game.
I did play a like EQ and didnt like it as much as UO. Now in UO I grouped with people to lower my risk of dying because some risk were high. But having friends make the risk much lower and we piled on the gold much faster that way. The same was said in SWG, going out killing stuff with friends made it much easier. I just didnt like the forced grouping in EQ. Though I did like it in FFXI. I dont know why but FFXI was fun to me outside of the crappy drops and all that.
My wife is a good example because she started playing MMOs with WOW. Just like the majority of MMO players today. She seen the EXP loss in AA and hated it and quit because she was like if she is going to siege a castle at max level she does not want to delevel because players will die in a dungeon at a high level where people have to die a few times to learn a boss then she will not run it unless the boss will give back the full XP or more. Because wiping is a part of learning boss fights.
So you would be ok with it if small group content was the most efficient method to gain high end advancement? If the "end-game" progression was primarily centered around small groups and multi-group raids were actually a little less efficient way to get that high end equipment?
I mean, if the focus of this game is grouping then shouldn't the focus of the game always be grouping? Not just while you are leveling up but at the end-game too?
Like, if you have 50 levels in your game, the general group size is 5 players, you can't put a raid at level 30 with like 10-20 players as a part of the level up process, participation would be WAY too low to be effective. Ya know?
Regarding your wife... sounds like this won't be a game for her. Which is fine.. .because there are plenty of MMOs out there without death penalties.
My expectations are that the game be fun even if it is in a raw state.. And plenty of small and full group content. I prefer 2 or 3 person group content over trying to come up with a lot of solo content ( that is unless the lack of population calls for solo content ).
Sure, but that doesn't really answer the question I put forth.