There statement held the point that they do not consider content expanding non-gameplay elements to be "content" as it applies to extending the core content and quality of the game.
It was clarified with their commentary of "Vanity Item content". It's rather clear to apparently everyone but you that their point was that content is generally geared towards the cash shop rather than delivering regular content into the general game.
Gdemami's counter is applicable in that sense as he is trying to refute it and make the claim that there are plenty of F2P games updating the gameplay content.
The thing missed there however, is that it's predominantly content that is behind a sub/paid access and therefore not part of the F2P experience, or more fundamental updates revamping things like broken progression systems.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Nothing holdenhamlet said, including the parts you didn't quote, was a claim that F2P games don't do regular content.
The claim was that F2P games update more the cash shop than regular content, which is not true - hence mentioned recent updates.
There is no point filling your cash shop with items when your spenders already moved on because there is no new "regular" content that would stick them with the game.
Have you played a cash shop based game? The cash shops are updated weekly with new items, new sales, or limited time items.
I have never seen a single cash shop based game that is updated with new in-game content at the same pace.
But itemshops really takes away a lot of the achivements from MMOs.
No if you play MMOs for fun gameplay instead of the illusion of achievements. It is not like MMO achievements are the same as real world achievement anyway.
@Loke666 I agree with what you said near the end of your post. People keep saying that players like to game hop and try out game for free, therefore F2P cash shop games are their only option. Wrong. P2P games can just as easily offer a free 1 month trial (like Netflix) to new players.
I think a lot of players are getting tired of these cash shop games, and many, myself included, would gladly pay more than $15/month for a non-cash shop MMO that stayed true to the yearly expansion model like oldschool EQ did. EQ was $15/month back in what? year 2000? 1999? I think now that it's been almost 20 years there could very easily be a profitable game of similar model that charges closer to $25-30 per month.
I see no problem here. A lot of games offer subs and a lot of players pay subs.
There are over a thousand MMOs and less than 10 use a sub model exclusively how is that "alot" of games?
If you, or someone else, doesn't mind, could you please list some of these games? I've been going to official websites of game after game only to find that they have cash shops. I'm coming from a F2P and I've ragequit'd in the past but I think I'm finally done with this one and I'd like to check out a sub-only game. Cash shop games just aren't for me, the new content becomes very stale and it turns into just more and more grinds for the sake of enticing players to buy shortcuts from the store. I want to pay $$$ to play the game, not pay $$$ to get out of playing the game.
I think a lot of players are getting tired of these cash shop games, and many, myself included, would gladly pay more than $15/month for a non-cash shop MMO that stayed true to the yearly expansion model like oldschool EQ did. EQ was $15/month back in what? year 2000? 1999? I think now that it's been almost 20 years there could very easily be a profitable game of similar model that charges closer to $25-30 per month.
even if that is true, your buying power clearly is not comparable to that of the whales.
Otherwise, the market of f2p would not be growing so much. Personally i wouldn't bother with subs when either i can play for free, or buy the AAA games (like The Division) for a one-time cost.
With the amount of f2p mmo's it's just not easy to sell a p2p game. Lots of gamehopping taking place, and lots of similar style mmo's both f2p and p2p. Why pick the p2p over the f2p ?
I do agree though that great games will find an audience eventually, even if it's p2p. The thing is, as f2p chances are they would find that audience alot faster, especially if it's an unknown IP with little advertising. And gamecompanies wants lots of players so they can have lots of potential customers for their mmo cashshop.
Personly i think the trend is moving towards b2p mmo's. But i guess i'm biased since it's the model i prefer. I pay for the game, i get to play the game for free. If they want more cash from me they need to deliver more content.
Players love it. Devs, not so much. It puts them on the hook to keep the game interesting month after month.
That's true of any content-driven game. F2P games worry even more about keeping their game interesting month after month (if they don't, they collapse and die even faster than subscription games.)
That makes no sense. Why would they collapse faster? People can play them for free, and might play even if they're not that interested because it costs them nothing.
You can justify being bored in a game that costs you nothing. Nobody can justify paying 15/month to be bored.
When sub games start to fail, they go f2p, not the other way around.
If what you say was true, if a f2p game was failing, it would go sub to prevent collapse.
Are you high?
***
The main reason sub is better for us is it allows us to vote with our wallets. Don't like how a game is going- don't sub. With a f2p game, if you don't pay, the only thing you're voting on is the cash shop.
I can not justify being bored in a game, even if is free, my time is far too valuable.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yupp. It is the whales that carry the f2p, but you got to do it in a way that keeps the non-paying crowd just inches away from displeased. I played Game of War for some time and was in a top 10 clan (100 players in a clan). The top 30 players in the clan spent from 500$ and upwards to who knows a month. Now just imagine how many subscribers you need just to compare that vs. 10 of the top guilds. People wont pay such amounts unless it is p2w, and that is why p2w earns money. Cosmetics wont do it for recurring monthly spending of 500$+. I dont know where people Get the money from, but the top 3 players in my guild spent 2k+ monthly. Just those 3 players would be the same as 400+ subscribers. Hard to beat that shit.
Yupp. It is the whales that carry the f2p, but you got to do it in a way that keeps the non-paying crowd just inches away from displeased.
Well I guess you could say I'm a disgruntled former F2P'er and I know I'm not the only one. I'm not even going to try another cash shop game even though it is free to play... I'm coming from lord of the rings online and it's not the game that I'm sick of, it's the entire f2p genre of mmo's.
Players love it. Devs, not so much. It puts them on the hook to keep the game interesting month after month.
That's true of any content-driven game. F2P games worry even more about keeping their game interesting month after month (if they don't, they collapse and die even faster than subscription games.)
That makes no sense. Why would they collapse faster? People can play them for free, and might play even if they're not that interested because it costs them nothing.
You can justify being bored in a game that costs you nothing. Nobody can justify paying 15/month to be bored.
When sub games start to fail, they go f2p, not the other way around.
If what you say was true, if a f2p game was failing, it would go sub to prevent collapse.
Are you high?
***
The main reason sub is better for us is it allows us to vote with our wallets. Don't like how a game is going- don't sub. With a f2p game, if you don't pay, the only thing you're voting on is the cash shop.
I can not justify being bored in a game, even if is free, my time is far too valuable.
Apparently not true for everyone.
Much of the genre is boring to me. Well at least the individual actions done. Other players and the unpredictability that came along with is what kept me coming back. That's been killed and formulated into individualistic game play.
I think a lot of MMORPG players are playing for the rewards of boring actions. Been that way for a while I guess.
I think a lot of players are getting tired of these cash shop games, and many, myself included, would gladly pay more than $15/month for a non-cash shop MMO that stayed true to the yearly expansion model like oldschool EQ did. EQ was $15/month back in what? year 2000? 1999? I think now that it's been almost 20 years there could very easily be a profitable game of similar model that charges closer to $25-30 per month.
even if that is true, your buying power clearly is not comparable to that of the whales.
Otherwise, the market of f2p would not be growing so much. Personally i wouldn't bother with subs when either i can play for free, or buy the AAA games (like The Division) for a one-time cost.
True, but how many whales are there actually around? Wow for example at it's top would hardly have earned more money as F2P, 15 million players paying $15 each month is hard to beat with some whales and a majority of leechers.
When you look on the growing (western) F2P market the games are small and medium sized, a giant is a very different matter. A small game can run fine with a rather small number of whales that pay a rather large sum each.
With 1 million players I think you still earn more as F2P (or B2P) but with 10 million players the actual percentage of whales will be smaller and having everyone paying a certain sum will most likely bring in more cash. And that is why WoW still is P2P (as well as Lineage).
As for you not bother, sure but many people would try if your first month were free and subscription started after that and a good enough game would hook those people.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I didn't like subscriptions because the companies that were administering them didn't have the content cycle to justify the box price + the sub. I'm a grown man, and not some youngling looking for free fun.
After seeing how terrible things have gotten with P2W, whales, and other f#%kery in the genre, I realized what was at stake in hindsight. Boy was I wrong for the stance I took.
F2P is a model that can only be done by reasonable publishers who are in for the long haul, not penny pinching raiders with dragon sickness looking to get in and cash out as fast as possible. These types of publishers min max transaction first, user experience second. It's repugnant and will only get worse.
I hope these hacks just take their shenanigans to the mobile space and keep that BS there.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
I think a lot of players are getting tired of these cash shop games, and many, myself included, would gladly pay more than $15/month for a non-cash shop MMO that stayed true to the yearly expansion model like oldschool EQ did. EQ was $15/month back in what? year 2000? 1999? I think now that it's been almost 20 years there could very easily be a profitable game of similar model that charges closer to $25-30 per month.
even if that is true, your buying power clearly is not comparable to that of the whales.
Otherwise, the market of f2p would not be growing so much. Personally i wouldn't bother with subs when either i can play for free, or buy the AAA games (like The Division) for a one-time cost.
True, but how many whales are there actually around? Wow for example at it's top would hardly have earned more money as F2P, 15 million players paying $15 each month is hard to beat with some whales and a majority of leechers.
When you look on the growing (western) F2P market the games are small and medium sized, a giant is a very different matter. A small game can run fine with a rather small number of whales that pay a rather large sum each.
With 1 million players I think you still earn more as F2P (or B2P) but with 10 million players the actual percentage of whales will be smaller and having everyone paying a certain sum will most likely bring in more cash. And that is why WoW still is P2P (as well as Lineage).
As for you not bother, sure but many people would try if your first month were free and subscription started after that and a good enough game would hook those people.
Lineage doesn't have anything ever remotely approaching WoW's subscription numbers. The game is dead to most people who haven't invested years of their life in it. That's why many people still play Lineage and Lineage II - they've have spent so much time and money on those games, that they cannot walk away from it easily. Even in Korea, Lineage II is falling off. Read the dedicated forums (official forums are quite heavily moderated).
Lineage II is F2P with a P2W Cash Shop, and there are so many botters/farmers in those games that it's hard to take their "subscriber" numbers seriously. The NA servers are probably 1/3rd+ bots, and that's being quite generous. So many players quit because they wouldn't do anything about the bots and RMTers/eBayers. Many of the top players in high end Clans in that game run their own bot groups to generate Adena and then sell it to other players for $$$. It's a sad state of affairs in that game.
Korean players are growing increasingly dissatisfied with it and more and more are quitting.
Comments
There statement held the point that they do not consider content expanding non-gameplay elements to be "content" as it applies to extending the core content and quality of the game.
It was clarified with their commentary of "Vanity Item content". It's rather clear to apparently everyone but you that their point was that content is generally geared towards the cash shop rather than delivering regular content into the general game.
Gdemami's counter is applicable in that sense as he is trying to refute it and make the claim that there are plenty of F2P games updating the gameplay content.
The thing missed there however, is that it's predominantly content that is behind a sub/paid access and therefore not part of the F2P experience, or more fundamental updates revamping things like broken progression systems.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Have you played a cash shop based game? The cash shops are updated weekly with new items, new sales, or limited time items.
I have never seen a single cash shop based game that is updated with new in-game content at the same pace.
I think a lot of players are getting tired of these cash shop games, and many, myself included, would gladly pay more than $15/month for a non-cash shop MMO that stayed true to the yearly expansion model like oldschool EQ did. EQ was $15/month back in what? year 2000? 1999? I think now that it's been almost 20 years there could very easily be a profitable game of similar model that charges closer to $25-30 per month.
Otherwise, the market of f2p would not be growing so much. Personally i wouldn't bother with subs when either i can play for free, or buy the AAA games (like The Division) for a one-time cost.
I do agree though that great games will find an audience eventually, even if it's p2p. The thing is, as f2p chances are they would find that audience alot faster, especially if it's an unknown IP with little advertising. And gamecompanies wants lots of players so they can have lots of potential customers for their mmo cashshop.
Personly i think the trend is moving towards b2p mmo's. But i guess i'm biased since it's the model i prefer. I pay for the game, i get to play the game for free. If they want more cash from me they need to deliver more content.
Apparently not true for everyone.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think a lot of MMORPG players are playing for the rewards of boring actions. Been that way for a while I guess.
When you look on the growing (western) F2P market the games are small and medium sized, a giant is a very different matter. A small game can run fine with a rather small number of whales that pay a rather large sum each.
With 1 million players I think you still earn more as F2P (or B2P) but with 10 million players the actual percentage of whales will be smaller and having everyone paying a certain sum will most likely bring in more cash. And that is why WoW still is P2P (as well as Lineage).
As for you not bother, sure but many people would try if your first month were free and subscription started after that and a good enough game would hook those people.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
After seeing how terrible things have gotten with P2W, whales, and other f#%kery in the genre, I realized what was at stake in hindsight. Boy was I wrong for the stance I took.
F2P is a model that can only be done by reasonable publishers who are in for the long haul, not penny pinching raiders with dragon sickness looking to get in and cash out as fast as possible. These types of publishers min max transaction first, user experience second. It's repugnant and will only get worse.
I hope these hacks just take their shenanigans to the mobile space and keep that BS there.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Lineage II is F2P with a P2W Cash Shop, and there are so many botters/farmers in those games that it's hard to take their "subscriber" numbers seriously. The NA servers are probably 1/3rd+ bots, and that's being quite generous. So many players quit because they wouldn't do anything about the bots and RMTers/eBayers. Many of the top players in high end Clans in that game run their own bot groups to generate Adena and then sell it to other players for $$$. It's a sad state of affairs in that game.
Korean players are growing increasingly dissatisfied with it and more and more are quitting.