I don't understand how people use the VR Headset. I don't even like to wear glasses when I'm playing games. I can feel the pressure weighing down on my nose. I usually don't wear them unless I need to read something that is far away.
I wear a motorcycle helment when I ride by bike.
from what I have been told the new CV feels like a baseball cap. people wear baseball caps dont they?
I'm not a big fan of wearing baseball caps either, but I can't imagine that the VR is lighter than my glasses. Even something very light will start to feel heavy over time. I have some wireless headphones for my TV and at first it feels fine, but after and hour or two it starts to feel heavy.
I think the problem with progression is that it adds to one's power but then they raise the power of what is going on around you therefore it's usually just a gating mechanism.
I'd like to see a bit less power and more skills, more passives that help but don't completely mitigate.
So that level one mobs can still be dangerous if you are not good but not an instant death sentence.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You right , but not some random innovation cr*p . Most of so called
innovation are c**p , for example treadmill for VR , 360 VR chair
. Too much work for gaming .
Only part i want from VR headsets is head tracking that allow me to free my hand from my mouse . Combine with voice 2 text to chat and dualshock gamepad
Anyway , all game have some kind of progressions , so you can't even have game without the progression
I don't understand how people use the VR Headset. I don't even like to wear glasses when I'm playing games. I can feel the pressure weighing down on my nose. I usually don't wear them unless I need to read something that is far away.
I wear a motorcycle helment when I ride by bike.
from what I have been told the new CV feels like a baseball cap. people wear baseball caps dont they?
I'm not a big fan of wearing baseball caps either, but I can't imagine that the VR is lighter than my glasses. Even something very light will start to feel heavy over time. I have some wireless headphones for my TV and at first it feels fine, but after and hour or two it starts to feel heavy.
[mod edit]
I guess pointing out that something that size will weigh down a person over a few hours in an entertainment environment and detract from the enjoyment of the experience is something that shouldn't be pointed out. It is entertainment after all and anything that detracts from the enjoyment experience should be mentioned.
I don't believe that it matters if you are an idiot or not. Idiots are some of the most fun people I've met in life. Usually it's the knowledgeable people who are fairly boring. Games are good case in point. People analyze them and try to make them into some kind of boring and logical thing instead of a fun and imaginative thing.
I mean, if you got a new sword, the only way you'd know it was better than the old one you were using would be to use it, and whether or not it felt like it was better?
Still, on the back end, there would still be numerical growth or progression simply because coding demands it.
So to have zero numerical progression, the sword wouldn't matter, only your ability to push the right buttons and move the right way etc. would improve as you play the game more and more.
I'll give you an example from LotRO before first xpac. LotRO had horizontal progression at endgame, rather than vertical.
So, you hit level 50 and got yourself a full set of crit-crafted gear. This was enough to clear 100% of the content (well, you could do it earlier, but this is an example :P)
Then, you'd go off and clear The Rift, as 12 person raid with full set of armour, weapons plus random jewellery. Rather than being "better" than the crit-crafted stuff, it was just "different". What I mean is that the total number of stats from all gear was roughly equivalent, but the distribution was different.
So, crit-crafted gear had more raw stats overall, but lacked set bonuses. If the set bonuses were useful, players would would often sacrifice some stats in order to gain the set bonuses. Likewise, this variation in stat distribution allowed players to create specialised builds. You could go balanced, crit heavy, tanky, power (mana) heavy etc. Each set and combination was roughly equivalent, but the specialising allowed feelings of progression plus tailoring to content and playstyle.
Using your sword example, you can still have differing stats on swords, they just don't have to be vertical progression. So, for example, you could remove dps/damage stats completely from swords and instead focus on armour piercing, weight, durability, size etc, all of which should affect damage indirectly without necessarily bloating progression.
This would then allow you vastly different builds to suit content and playstyle, without giving players direct vertical progression. So, I might choose to dual-wield small axes with the low weight allowing quicker attacks and good slashing damage, compared to a friend who might go for a weighty 2h sword which would mean slower attacks but higher damage and better piercing. Both, on paper, would put out the same damage but would do it in different ways. Players would then have to alter their rotations to match their weapons and match the mobs they're fighting.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I guess pointing out that something that size will weigh down a person over a few hours in an entertainment environment and detract from the enjoyment of the experience is something that shouldn't be pointed out. It is entertainment after all and anything that detracts from the enjoyment experience should be mentioned.
I don't believe that it matters if you are an idiot or not. Idiots are some of the most fun people I've met in life. Usually it's the knowledgeable people who are fairly boring. Games are good case in point. People analyze them and try to make them into some kind of boring and logical thing instead of a fun and imaginative thing.
all that from 'a baseball cap is to bulky or heavy?'
ok well I should point out that this thread isnt even about VR. so we should likely stop while we are ahead because this is going downhill pretty fast
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
People often say "well what if instead of getting more powerful you just got more abilities, more options or styles whatever but none more powerful than the rest."
That is still a linear, and thus "vertical" progression.
Because at the start, you have one ability, and at the end you have 10 or whatever. 10 is greater than 1.
Horizontal progression might be a myth, but it's possible to have a game without progression. I'd imagine it would have to be heavily based on player competition like in real life. It doesn't have to be PvP, but it would have to be over land, resources, jobs, power, etc. You don't really have that in current MMOs. Even at endgame. It's a fairly linear path with limited things to fight over.
Level up this, XP for that, upgrade, unlock, gear loot, skill up... Is this all games are anymore. Is this the only way to keep us entertained and invested in games? Is progress a requirement for all games? Does it somehow validate our time spent?
clearly not for puzzle games, detective adventures like those Sherlock Holmes games, and not some shooters.
People often say "well what if instead of getting more powerful you just got more abilities, more options or styles whatever but none more powerful than the rest."
That is still a linear, and thus "vertical" progression.
Because at the start, you have one ability, and at the end you have 10 or whatever. 10 is greater than 1.
All progression is vertical.
Torval is right.
Vertical Progression is about things getting bigger (numbers go UP => vertical)
Horizontal Progression is about opening up options (numbers stay the same => horizontal)
I agree, the semantics is questionable, but the underlying concept is sound and definitely isn't a myth. There are loads of games that use horizontal progression successfully (basically every shooter). Not many MMOs have done so, but LotRO before the first xpac had horizontal progression at endgame (was vertical whilst leveling).
Its all about comparisons. So, lets compare damage output. In a vertical progression system, a lvl 1 and a lvl 100 would be vastly different, with the lvl100 having vastly greater damage output. Damage goes up, therefore it is vertical.
In a horizontal progression system, a lvl1 and a lvl100 would have the same damage output, but the lvl1 would output that damage via bludgeoning whereas the lvl100 would have the choice to bludgeon, stab, slash, hack etc.
Now, horizontal progression only has meaning if that progression has an ingame effect, otherwise it is just pointless bloat. In LotRO, the horizontal progression had meaning because the sideways progression in gear made you more or less effective for various different types of content and also allowed you to alter your playstyle. It felt like progression because my character could actually do more stuff, rather than being pidgeonholed into a single build / gear setup.
When I compare that experience to something like SW:TOR, once I hit 50 my character basically never changed. There was one optimal build for all content, one optimal rotation etc. Nothing changed except numbers on the screen got bigger. It was mythical progression rather than actual progression.
At the end of the day, it comes down to personal preference. I like using my brain, I'm an intelligent guy so I get my kicks from solving problems and being creative. Vertical progression games offer me nothing in terms of characters - as soon as you hit cap and have all your skills, thats basically it, you solve you rotation once, your gear setup once and your done. Horizontal progression usually offers so many more options that it keeps me mentally engaged. I'm always thinking of new builds to try out, optimal gear combinations to maximise those builds, different ways to play my character to beat specific bits of content etc.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
It's all about seeing numbers get bigger over time.
If numbers stop getting higher, something is wrong
I dunno about that, there are other goals you can set in MMOs besides more hitpoints and better gear.
Guildwars did really good without much progression in the form of numbers and games like Minecraft let you set your own goals.
I think mixing different types of goals is the right way to go, have progression in the forms of numbers is part of it but if you use it too much you just get another insane level/gear grind where nothing else besides gear and XP matters.
If that is just part of it and you mix in group goals (building and sailing a huge ship for example or building a small keep and patrolling the area around it together with your fellow knights or anythig other similar), Realm goals (works fine in PvE games as well as in PvP games) where players do stuff to better their kingdom compared to the others (and getting certain bonuses when things are fine).
Certain players are motivated in certain ways and others in other way but many do enjoy to have more than a single goal. Games only focusing on your own character tend to become somewhat toxic and games should encourage but not force people to work together for a common goal.
Heck, you can even add certain personal goals the player can set from the character creator that are long term and something the player will slowly work toward (with some nice reward). It could be anything from marrying and get kids, build and own an inn, raising in rank to become a general, getting your poor farmerboy knighthood or whatever.
Goals that isn't just numbers is very important in pen and paper roleplaying and I think it can add a lot of fun to MMORPGs as well. It gives more meaning to playing then just numbers even if of course you should be rewarded with an ability or something else nice for completing hard goals. And of course it should be something optional that players could do but not must to be competetive.
Side progression is still "vertical" in that you are still adding to rather than what would be "pure" horizontal or lateral movement that is substitution, and thus not progression but replacement.
Even adding abilities, but you can only use one at a time, so you have more options is STILL vertical progression.
OK think of it like this, you collect baseball cards. Now pretend these cards have no value, and thus no card is better or worse than any other card. Now you'd think, collecting more cards is horizontal progression, right? I'm adding more options, more cards but they are all the same in terms of value.
Still wrong.
You are adding to your collection. It's still a progression, and thus "vertical" as you once had only 10 cards, now you have 100.
It's still a RISE, stepping up, expanding, getting bigger... thus, a "vertical" progression.
There is no horizontal progression. Closest thing is pure substitution, I have 10 card, you take away 5 and add 5 new ones, I still have 10, they may be different, but I still have 10.
But then that is not progression in any way, shape, or form.
People often say "well what if instead of getting more powerful you just got more abilities, more options or styles whatever but none more powerful than the rest."
That is still a linear, and thus "vertical" progression.
Because at the start, you have one ability, and at the end you have 10 or whatever. 10 is greater than 1.
All progression is vertical.
Torval is right.
hmmm, depends.
So let's look at Dragon's Dogma. As you level up you get more skills and in a few cases the skill get a bit more powerful. However, their "upgrade" only happens once.
Out of those skills you can only use a few. So in reality you are only getting more options.
You do get extra hit points so that does add a bit to one's "power" but on the whole I don't really think one gets wayyyy more powerful.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
People often say "well what if instead of getting more powerful you just got more abilities, more options or styles whatever but none more powerful than the rest."
That is still a linear, and thus "vertical" progression.
Because at the start, you have one ability, and at the end you have 10 or whatever. 10 is greater than 1.
All progression is vertical.
Torval is right.
hmmm, depends.
So let's look at Dragon's Dogma. As you level up you get more skills and in a few cases the skill get a bit more powerful. However, their "upgrade" only happens once.
Out of those skills you can only use a few. So in reality you are only getting more options.
You do get extra hit points so that does add a bit to one's "power" but on the whole I don't really think one gets wayyyy more powerful.
I'm really splitting hairs and arguing semantics, I am generally very in favor or what is typically referred to as "horizontal progression" as I think it makes grouping more intuitive and lowers the barriers to players being able to play together.
Yet at the same time, I do enjoy power progression very, very much. I think (as with all things) the best approach is balance.
There is always some form of progression in a game. There might not be levels, skills, crafting or whatever, but there is always something there that can be linked to "progression".
Your example of gaining abilities (equal in power) and your collection of cards is EXACTLY the same. Both are horizontal progression.
I think you are getting too hung up on the differences when ultimately both horizontal and vertical progression is still a from of progression. So by adding it's existence is progression, not always vertical progression. With @cameltosis 's simple example of same damage but different damage type describes what is horizontal. 10 dps fire staff or 10 dps ice staff ...horizontal 3-5 dmg axe ( 4.2 dps) or 4 dmg axe (4.2 dps) ...horizontal
Having both doesn't make it vertical in anyway if they do the same damage. You aren't using both at the same time. The only difference with damage types is that you have options to use it on something that is weak to that damage type. You can argue more options is an advantage, yes, but it is not vertical or more powerful in it's entire use.
More options does not make you more powerful on a per item or ability basis (combat initiation usually limits to this). You have to look at it under rules enforced by the game.
With that said, getting more of anything levels, stats on axes, or cards is progression but it's how those compare and are used that determine horizontal or vertical.
I understand what you are saying, but what I am saying is that horizontal progression isn't really progression.
Lateral movement is not progression. Progression is moving forward.
Like, OK pretend you are standing on the edge of a large, circular platform. In the center is the objective.
You gain power for every step towards the objective.
Forward, or vertical progression would mean walking towards the objective in the center. As you walk forward, you gain more power.
Horizontal or lateral movement would be walking along the edge of the circle.
Along the edge are new abilities you can pick up and equip, but none more powerful than any others, and you can only equip one at a time.
Sure you are moving, you are "gaining" something in the new abilities you can equip, but you are not getting any closer to the objective in the center, not getting any more powerful, no matter how long or far you walk.
So it isn't progression.
You aren't gaining anything, really, you aren't making any progress. You are changing, you are alternating and you are transforming, but you are not evolving...
I don't know, maybe someone else can explain it better?
People often say "well what if instead of getting more powerful you just got more abilities, more options or styles whatever but none more powerful than the rest."
That is still a linear, and thus "vertical" progression.
Because at the start, you have one ability, and at the end you have 10 or whatever. 10 is greater than 1.
All progression is vertical.
Torval is right.
hmmm, depends.
So let's look at Dragon's Dogma. As you level up you get more skills and in a few cases the skill get a bit more powerful. However, their "upgrade" only happens once.
Out of those skills you can only use a few. So in reality you are only getting more options.
You do get extra hit points so that does add a bit to one's "power" but on the whole I don't really think one gets wayyyy more powerful.
In dragon's dogma levels improves your health, stamina, attack and defense based on your class. Additionally your class level unlock skills, and improved versions of those skills. Progressing through the game unlocks better vendor gear that improves your attack and defense. On top of that you have loot drops.
While each level doesn't make a huge difference its only because the game has a level 200 cap, a 10 level increase makes a huge difference.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
In a fantasy context many games have you as an insignificant character with the prospect of greatness. In that setting progression of strength or skills is vital to the story line.
And lets not forget reward. We spend vasts amount of time and money on our 'hobby'. The idea of Joe Public logging in on day one and being at the same level as you (time spent playing as much as your youngest child) just doesn't sit right.
In a fantasy context many games have you as an insignificant character with the prospect of greatness. In that setting progression of strength or skills is vital to the story line.
And lets not forget reward. We spend vasts amount of time and money on our 'hobby'. The idea of Joe Public logging in on day one and being at the same level as you (time spent playing as much as your youngest child) just doesn't sit right.
The problem is that it's an illusion of greatness. When Joe Private reaches the max level, everything he has acheived is meaningless because everyone else at max level as accomplished it as well (in a themepark MMO).
You can have achievement as doing something better than other players (in your examples), but you can have achievements of a million other varieties.
If completion of a journey is the key, then what is the point of having a persistent world ? Instanced content with a lobby social hub provide the exact same feeling. I'm not even talking about instanced dungeons, but even an instanced open world.
I feel persistent words are lacking one layer of progression. Right now, there is only one to 2 types of progression : individual progression and world progression (not often). World progression happens when players are able to affect the world, so mainly in Sandbox MMOs. I think an additional intermediary level is mandatory : progression of social groups, and this includes both demography and the shared technological aptitude of the social group. Right now, we have guild systems that are mainly managed outside of game structures through private forums, and right now players spawn at generic NPC areas then go out of their way to join up other groups.
What if guilds were able to allow "spawning" in their group, within game, and a player would be member of this guild right from the get go. And both players and guilds would have incentives to work with one another : perhaps guilds have ressource needs to maintain their structures and need more players to enjoy this. It would also allow persistent storytelling from a group standpoint. Guilds would each have different motives, and players would as such choose the "spawn point" that matches the best with their values and their playstyles, without having to go through "one size fits all" content.
It would also make a living, breathing world where players wouldn't have to spawn in capital cities then move out towards the outskirts of the world to go where guilds have set their base up.
I understand what you are saying, but what I am saying is that horizontal progression
isn't really progression.
Lateral movement is not progression. Progression is moving forward.
Like, OK pretend you are standing on the edge of a large, circular platform. In the center is the objective.
You gain power for every step towards the objective.
Forward, or vertical progression would mean walking towards the objective in the center. As you walk forward, you gain more power.
Horizontal or lateral movement would be walking along the edge of the circle.
Along the edge are new abilities you can pick up and equip, but none more powerful than any others, and you can only equip one at a time.
Sure you are moving, you are "gaining" something in the new abilities you can equip, but you are not getting any closer to the objective in the center, not getting any more powerful, no matter how long or far you walk.
So it isn't progression.
You aren't gaining anything, really, you aren't making any progress. You are changing, you are alternating and you are transforming, but you are not evolving...
I don't know, maybe someone else can explain it better?
The problem here lies in your perception which isn't matching the technical reality. I do get your meaning, but it is the difference in not feeling like progression and the actuality of it.
Your use of "really" which is translating as "not as much or as obviously".
There also is no "gaining" you either gain or do not. You can't "gain" abilities.
Progression is gaining. Whether that gain is a step forward or step to the side doesn't doesn't change the fact it was a gain or acquisition of something. Acquiring abilities that give you more options but not one of them bringing you closer to your goal than the other, is also horizontal progression, even if it doesn't feel like progressing.
I like games that gives you small crumbs in everything you do. Everything you kill, everything you gather, everything you craft, everyone you talk to, etc.....That's why I'm liking Project Gorgon alot....ESO does it really well too. I"m sure there are cookie cutter builds but it's so addictive getting new skills and testing them out. And there are so many of them. lol
I also like themepark progression too but those types of games you need a group of friends to enjoy. Playing by yourself in a themepark gets boring after a while because there's not enough bread crumbs. Most themeparks everyone ends up looking the same. All the classes end of playing the same. Not much customization. That's basically what I've noticed in the ones I play.
But yeah, I don't think an MMORPG works without progression. It's just not plausible I don't believe.
Comments
I'm not a big fan of wearing baseball caps either, but I can't imagine that the VR is lighter than my glasses. Even something very light will start to feel heavy over time. I have some wireless headphones for my TV and at first it feels fine, but after and hour or two it starts to feel heavy.
I'd like to see a bit less power and more skills, more passives that help but don't completely mitigate.
So that level one mobs can still be dangerous if you are not good but not an instant death sentence.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Only part i want from VR headsets is head tracking that allow me to free my hand from my mouse .
Combine with voice 2 text to chat and dualshock gamepad
Anyway , all game have some kind of progressions , so you can't even have game without the progression
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
I don't believe that it matters if you are an idiot or not. Idiots are some of the most fun people I've met in life. Usually it's the knowledgeable people who are fairly boring. Games are good case in point. People analyze them and try to make them into some kind of boring and logical thing instead of a fun and imaginative thing.
I'll give you an example from LotRO before first xpac. LotRO had horizontal progression at endgame, rather than vertical.
So, you hit level 50 and got yourself a full set of crit-crafted gear. This was enough to clear 100% of the content (well, you could do it earlier, but this is an example :P)
Then, you'd go off and clear The Rift, as 12 person raid with full set of armour, weapons plus random jewellery. Rather than being "better" than the crit-crafted stuff, it was just "different". What I mean is that the total number of stats from all gear was roughly equivalent, but the distribution was different.
So, crit-crafted gear had more raw stats overall, but lacked set bonuses. If the set bonuses were useful, players would would often sacrifice some stats in order to gain the set bonuses. Likewise, this variation in stat distribution allowed players to create specialised builds. You could go balanced, crit heavy, tanky, power (mana) heavy etc. Each set and combination was roughly equivalent, but the specialising allowed feelings of progression plus tailoring to content and playstyle.
Using your sword example, you can still have differing stats on swords, they just don't have to be vertical progression. So, for example, you could remove dps/damage stats completely from swords and instead focus on armour piercing, weight, durability, size etc, all of which should affect damage indirectly without necessarily bloating progression.
This would then allow you vastly different builds to suit content and playstyle, without giving players direct vertical progression. So, I might choose to dual-wield small axes with the low weight allowing quicker attacks and good slashing damage, compared to a friend who might go for a weighty 2h sword which would mean slower attacks but higher damage and better piercing. Both, on paper, would put out the same damage but would do it in different ways. Players would then have to alter their rotations to match their weapons and match the mobs they're fighting.
ok well I should point out that this thread isnt even about VR. so we should likely stop while we are ahead because this is going downhill pretty fast
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
People often say "well what if instead of getting more powerful you just got more abilities, more options or styles whatever but none more powerful than the rest."
That is still a linear, and thus "vertical" progression.
Because at the start, you have one ability, and at the end you have 10 or whatever. 10 is greater than 1.
All progression is vertical.
Torval is right.
Horizontal Progression is about opening up options (numbers stay the same => horizontal)
I agree, the semantics is questionable, but the underlying concept is sound and definitely isn't a myth. There are loads of games that use horizontal progression successfully (basically every shooter). Not many MMOs have done so, but LotRO before the first xpac had horizontal progression at endgame (was vertical whilst leveling).
Its all about comparisons. So, lets compare damage output. In a vertical progression system, a lvl 1 and a lvl 100 would be vastly different, with the lvl100 having vastly greater damage output. Damage goes up, therefore it is vertical.
In a horizontal progression system, a lvl1 and a lvl100 would have the same damage output, but the lvl1 would output that damage via bludgeoning whereas the lvl100 would have the choice to bludgeon, stab, slash, hack etc.
Now, horizontal progression only has meaning if that progression has an ingame effect, otherwise it is just pointless bloat. In LotRO, the horizontal progression had meaning because the sideways progression in gear made you more or less effective for various different types of content and also allowed you to alter your playstyle. It felt like progression because my character could actually do more stuff, rather than being pidgeonholed into a single build / gear setup.
When I compare that experience to something like SW:TOR, once I hit 50 my character basically never changed. There was one optimal build for all content, one optimal rotation etc. Nothing changed except numbers on the screen got bigger. It was mythical progression rather than actual progression.
At the end of the day, it comes down to personal preference. I like using my brain, I'm an intelligent guy so I get my kicks from solving problems and being creative. Vertical progression games offer me nothing in terms of characters - as soon as you hit cap and have all your skills, thats basically it, you solve you rotation once, your gear setup once and your done. Horizontal progression usually offers so many more options that it keeps me mentally engaged. I'm always thinking of new builds to try out, optimal gear combinations to maximise those builds, different ways to play my character to beat specific bits of content etc.
Guildwars did really good without much progression in the form of numbers and games like Minecraft let you set your own goals.
I think mixing different types of goals is the right way to go, have progression in the forms of numbers is part of it but if you use it too much you just get another insane level/gear grind where nothing else besides gear and XP matters.
If that is just part of it and you mix in group goals (building and sailing a huge ship for example or building a small keep and patrolling the area around it together with your fellow knights or anythig other similar), Realm goals (works fine in PvE games as well as in PvP games) where players do stuff to better their kingdom compared to the others (and getting certain bonuses when things are fine).
Certain players are motivated in certain ways and others in other way but many do enjoy to have more than a single goal. Games only focusing on your own character tend to become somewhat toxic and games should encourage but not force people to work together for a common goal.
Heck, you can even add certain personal goals the player can set from the character creator that are long term and something the player will slowly work toward (with some nice reward). It could be anything from marrying and get kids, build and own an inn, raising in rank to become a general, getting your poor farmerboy knighthood or whatever.
Goals that isn't just numbers is very important in pen and paper roleplaying and I think it can add a lot of fun to MMORPGs as well. It gives more meaning to playing then just numbers even if of course you should be rewarded with an ability or something else nice for completing hard goals. And of course it should be something optional that players could do but not must to be competetive.
Side progression is still "vertical" in that you are still adding to rather than what would be "pure" horizontal or lateral movement that is substitution, and thus not progression but replacement.
Even adding abilities, but you can only use one at a time, so you have more options is STILL vertical progression.
OK think of it like this, you collect baseball cards. Now pretend these cards have no value, and thus no card is better or worse than any other card. Now you'd think, collecting more cards is horizontal progression, right? I'm adding more options, more cards but they are all the same in terms of value.
Still wrong.
You are adding to your collection. It's still a progression, and thus "vertical" as you once had only 10 cards, now you have 100.
It's still a RISE, stepping up, expanding, getting bigger... thus, a "vertical" progression.
There is no horizontal progression. Closest thing is pure substitution, I have 10 card, you take away 5 and add 5 new ones, I still have 10, they may be different, but I still have 10.
But then that is not progression in any way, shape, or form.
people still play solitaire/mine sweeper/chess and it hasn't progressed since...the stone age?
(he didn't specify what type of game.)
So let's look at Dragon's Dogma. As you level up you get more skills and in a few cases the skill get a bit more powerful. However, their "upgrade" only happens once.
Out of those skills you can only use a few. So in reality you are only getting more options.
You do get extra hit points so that does add a bit to one's "power" but on the whole I don't really think one gets wayyyy more powerful.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yet at the same time, I do enjoy power progression very, very much. I think (as with all things) the best approach is balance.
Your example of gaining abilities (equal in power) and your collection of cards is EXACTLY the same. Both are horizontal progression.
I think you are getting too hung up on the differences when ultimately both horizontal and vertical progression is still a from of progression. So by adding it's existence is progression, not always vertical progression. With @cameltosis 's simple example of same damage but different damage type describes what is horizontal.
10 dps fire staff or 10 dps ice staff ...horizontal
3-5 dmg axe ( 4.2 dps) or 4 dmg axe (4.2 dps) ...horizontal
Having both doesn't make it vertical in anyway if they do the same damage. You aren't using both at the same time. The only difference with damage types is that you have options to use it on something that is weak to that damage type. You can argue more options is an advantage, yes, but it is not vertical or more powerful in it's entire use.
More options does not make you more powerful on a per item or ability basis (combat initiation usually limits to this). You have to look at it under rules enforced by the game.
With that said, getting more of anything levels, stats on axes, or cards is progression but it's how those compare and are used that determine horizontal or vertical.
I understand what you are saying, but what I am saying is that horizontal progression isn't really progression.
Lateral movement is not progression. Progression is moving forward.
Like, OK pretend you are standing on the edge of a large, circular platform. In the center is the objective.
You gain power for every step towards the objective.
Forward, or vertical progression would mean walking towards the objective in the center. As you walk forward, you gain more power.
Horizontal or lateral movement would be walking along the edge of the circle.
Along the edge are new abilities you can pick up and equip, but none more powerful than any others, and you can only equip one at a time.
Sure you are moving, you are "gaining" something in the new abilities you can equip, but you are not getting any closer to the objective in the center, not getting any more powerful, no matter how long or far you walk.
So it isn't progression.
You aren't gaining anything, really, you aren't making any progress. You are changing, you are alternating and you are transforming, but you are not evolving...
I don't know, maybe someone else can explain it better?
While each level doesn't make a huge difference its only because the game has a level 200 cap, a 10 level increase makes a huge difference.
In a fantasy context many games have you as an insignificant character with the prospect of greatness. In that setting progression of strength or skills is vital to the story line.
And lets not forget reward. We spend vasts amount of time and money on our 'hobby'. The idea of Joe Public logging in on day one and being at the same level as you (time spent playing as much as your youngest child) just doesn't sit right.
You can have achievement as doing something better than other players (in your examples), but you can have achievements of a million other varieties.
If completion of a journey is the key, then what is the point of having a persistent world ? Instanced content with a lobby social hub provide the exact same feeling. I'm not even talking about instanced dungeons, but even an instanced open world.
I feel persistent words are lacking one layer of progression. Right now, there is only one to 2 types of progression : individual progression and world progression (not often). World progression happens when players are able to affect the world, so mainly in Sandbox MMOs.
I think an additional intermediary level is mandatory : progression of social groups, and this includes both demography and the shared technological aptitude of the social group.
Right now, we have guild systems that are mainly managed outside of game structures through private forums, and right now players spawn at generic NPC areas then go out of their way to join up other groups.
What if guilds were able to allow "spawning" in their group, within game, and a player would be member of this guild right from the get go. And both players and guilds would have incentives to work with one another : perhaps guilds have ressource needs to maintain their structures and need more players to enjoy this. It would also allow persistent storytelling from a group standpoint. Guilds would each have different motives, and players would as such choose the "spawn point" that matches the best with their values and their playstyles, without having to go through "one size fits all" content.
It would also make a living, breathing world where players wouldn't have to spawn in capital cities then move out towards the outskirts of the world to go where guilds have set their base up.
The problem here lies in your perception which isn't matching the technical reality. I do get your meaning, but it is the difference in not feeling like progression and the actuality of it.
Your use of "really" which is translating as "not as much or as obviously".
There also is no "gaining" you either gain or do not. You can't "gain" abilities.
Progression is gaining. Whether that gain is a step forward or step to the side doesn't doesn't change the fact it was a gain or acquisition of something. Acquiring abilities that give you more options but not one of them bringing you closer to your goal than the other, is also horizontal progression, even if it doesn't feel like progressing.
I also like themepark progression too but those types of games you need a group of friends to enjoy. Playing by yourself in a themepark gets boring after a while because there's not enough bread crumbs. Most themeparks everyone ends up looking the same. All the classes end of playing the same. Not much customization. That's basically what I've noticed in the ones I play.
But yeah, I don't think an MMORPG works without progression. It's just not plausible I don't believe.
- They have beaten the game
OREither way, they know it's time to find a new game...