Not just dungeons but whole open world design does not work in themepark games(yes, that includes BDO too).
The inherited issue of open world, like DMKano pointed out above, is the overcrowding and themepark design condense players into specific areas as they progress through the game.
For a PVP based game yeah I could see open world dungeons working but in a PVE only if there was no tagging mobs. Just imagine if you were in a PVE game with tagging, it would just be a bunch of people spamming AOE until mobs appeared. A prime example of this was the open instances in ESO when it first launched. You would end up with 20 people standing in spot trying to be the first to tag a mob so they could get the kill credit.
But again for a PVP game they work great as long as you are not a solo or small guild kind of player. Larger guilds will rule the roost and kill anyone that they don't approve of doing the area.
But again for a PVP game they work great as long as you are not a solo or small guild kind of player. Larger guilds will rule the roost and kill anyone that they don't approve of doing the area.
Pretty much the main problem of that design. Kinda like WoW before they democratized raids by making them accessible to anyone even if not in a big guild, you only had less than 5% of the players seeing all the content. Yet all players paid the same for the game.
I can only see such places increase the elitism and also the asshatery inherent to PvP games.
In a PvP game in perspective they should work. But in Lineage 2 they had world raid bosses, lots of them like 50+ of them throughout the world and level ranges. It was fine up until the end game raid bosses, you could go scout out the bosses see if they were spawned, since they were on like 6 hour timers or 12 or something. But on my server back in the day (Lionna) there was a guild called Little Pigs, who basically ran the entire server, they were the hero clan, and they had all the end game bosses on farm. If you went to go get one when they happened to not be there, they would randomly show up and wipe your group each time, since they had all of the best players in their clan / the best geared since they had the raid bosses on farm and hero weapons. It became very obnoxious to try to do anything when a clan like that runs the server, so it kind of sucks in an open PvP game to have dungeons or bosses like that if there's no system in place to prevent consistent farm of one by a clan.
No Mmo has even come close to the dungeons of Vanguard all 120 open world dungeons many of which took days or even a week to complete. These are group dungeons I'm talking about.
Any one who thinks ESO public dungeons are good never played Vanguard.
Yes they can work, DAoC dungeons were/are the best. It's the main reason I now have up to date templates on my old characters, the Darkness Falls update Broadsword did. Still one of the most fun games around, even though it only has like 2k players now. I sub back up a couple times per year to take in the nostalgia, the log in music still hasn't changed.
The dungeons were semi-instanced though, you had to zone into the dungeon, but it's one dungeon for all the players. It's sort of the same concept BDO has, but you don't actually see a zone change. They just don't have enough "dungeons" yet, going down the well is pretty cool though. Still not quite the same feeling, but epic in it's own way.
This is why I'm hopeful for Camelot Unchained, since they met the step goal of adding "The Depths," to the game - which is the tribute to Darkness Falls.
No Open world dungeons cannot work again. Back in UO I owned the Shadow Wyrm room when I was there, I could call friends in to help kill off who ever was there and make them leave. In FFXI I remember 50 people always at a boss mob spawn where this one low level shield was that I wanted and could never get because these people.
WOW made instances to get rid of the ass hats in games and allow smaller groups of players to enjoy the content. This is what made WOW a very popular game. The problem with instances is that LFD came around and killed the social aspect of MMOs. Now they are more toxic and these people will find ways of interrupting other players open world experience. The only solution is to remove LFDs and go back to Vanilla WOW\TBC like instances.
Indeed. All dungeons in Asheron's Call were open dungeon and there are a few hundred of them. If you played on the PVP server some groups made it a habit of owning dungeons. It was interesting and fun even on the non-pvp server I could just randomly bump into people and team up.
Didn't open world dungeons exist in ESO? I know in EQ they were a thing I'm pretty sure. I remember doing something similar to that.
If you think the crappy 1-2 hour cave in ESO are proper open world dungeons then you never played Vanguard. 100+ open world dungeons of which many took days if not a week to do and spanned many levels, dungeons within dungeons.
Pantheon will be the next Mmo to give us those epic open world dungeons and out door open dungeons, Raz Incur anyone.
These are all group dungeons I'm talking about not raid dungeons.
No Open world dungeons cannot work again. Back in UO I owned the Shadow Wyrm room when I was there, I could call friends in to help kill off who ever was there and make them leave. In FFXI I remember 50 people always at a boss mob spawn where this one low level shield was that I wanted and could never get because these people.
WOW made instances to get rid of the ass hats in games and allow smaller groups of players to enjoy the content. This is what made WOW a very popular game. The problem with instances is that LFD came around and killed the social aspect of MMOs. Now they are more toxic and these people will find ways of interrupting other players open world experience. The only solution is to remove LFDs and go back to Vanilla WOW\TBC like instances.
Instances came before WOW and OWD can still work if done properly and vast enough spanning many levels.
If you are Everquest and are a game designed around group play, then yes Open World dungeons did work extremely well. You just had to actually communicate with other players, something very few people do in any MMO today. You can go weeks without even chatting and still end up with the best loot. Go weeks without chatting in EQ and you are going weeks without doing a dungeon.
WOW perfected the instanced duingeons/solo up top type of play.
If the game is not designed around grouping, then there is no reason to have open world dungeons. You can still have a good game. EQ2 and WOW are good games that have instanced dungeons.
The problem is LAZY design. Enter one of those dungeons in Elder Scrolls Online, and you will see the problem. The design is the same. You enter, travel to the end, then click a door and wind up at the beginning (just like Oblivion and Skyrim). Cheap, easy to make, and they can churn them out in the hundreds.
Old school EQ dungeons were better designed, just the technology was awful in places like Unrest and Mistmoore.....
But, I dare you to find ONE single game experience today in any MMO since WOW that equaled or even came close to the thrill of a massive train in Castle Mistmoore. IF you played EQ, you know exactly what I am talking about and if you never experienced it, well then you missed out.
I am of the firm belief that anything can work if implemented properly and supported by other "features".
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
I think they should make openworld dungeons... The deeper you go, the harder they get, with scrolldrops and keydrops , scrolls to summon bosses at certain points in the dungeon and keys to get there..
Openworld dungeons should be large by defenition, and have different mechanics then openworld areas that make them more dangerous, things like mob trains and such come to mind..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I miss the open world dungeons of UO, EQ and Dark Age of Camelot. The only reason they seem to fail in this modern era is due to their size and complexity. People who play mmo's today don't want to take up hours of killing mobs in a dungeon, they are impatient and want to do them within a few minutes.
I liked the fact I could spend days inside dungeons with my guild mates as we pulled monsters and slowly made our way to the bosses. Slay your groups way to a safe spot and log out, relog in next day and continue.
The last game that had true open world dungeons for me was EQ2, TESO tried to bring them back, but they are far too small and can be done solo.
DAoC all their dungeons was open world, there was a loading time for them but once inside you would notice that other groups were also inside killing monsters. Also their dungeons were massive with plenty of safe spots and monsters inside with reasonable spawn times. A dungeon could range from being level 10 to level 20 depending on how deep it could go.
The worked fine in EQ and DAOC and Lineage 2 and so on. Never wanted special little snowflake instances in any of my mmo playing to begin with , so the question amuses me.
They never stopped working for me and many others.
The only purpose Open World Dungeons (OWD) serve is for Camping and Ninja Looting. Since the author did address this I assume he is an idiot. If your 40 person raid was followed into a OWD by another 40 person raid. Only to have them jump in and steal every Named Boss (and its loot drop) in the Dungeon. Or to fight your way to a Named Boss only to find others Camping the spawn of that Named Boss.
OWD = Denial Of Service (DOS), it's all about preventing access of game content to others. Nothing more. Again the author didn't address this, so must I assume he is an idiot. You say the solution if same faction PvP (Pk). Well you brought a 40 person raid and they brought a 160 person raid. Their riad supper force acts like a single minded killing machine, while your 40 person raid does not. As a result your raid does not see OWD XP, Loot for 6 to 8 months possibly longer. Ever notice how causing other frustration is the most fun to be had in game?
Instance has nothing to do with "Chosen One Story Content", or Convenience from waiting. It is all about segregating people from Griefers. You can't write about OWD and not address their use as a Griefing tool. It's unethical, and incompetent.
Not all things work like WoW... the world existed before WoW
I didn't mention WoW, and you didn't address Camping and Ninja Looting. Is that because those are the actual feature wanted from OWDs? Why not drop the pretext of OWD and ask for Camping and Ninja Looting?
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
The worked fine in EQ and DAOC and Lineage 2 and so on. Never wanted special little snowflake instances in any of my mmo playing to begin with , so the question amuses me.
They never stopped working for me and many others.
I agree they never stopped working part of what you wrote. Old ideas seem to have to be presented as new things to the kids these days. They don't want to play that which the old gamers played. Oh, and they do have to be rewarded for "tough" (AKA EZ-mode) activity.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
The only purpose Open World Dungeons (OWD) serve is for Camping and Ninja Looting. Since the author did address this I assume he is an idiot. If your 40 person raid was followed into a OWD by another 40 person raid. Only to have them jump in and steal every Named Boss (and its loot drop) in the Dungeon. Or to fight your way to a Named Boss only to find others Camping the spawn of that Named Boss.
OWD = Denial Of Service (DOS), it's all about preventing access of game content to others. Nothing more. Again the author didn't address this, so must I assume he is an idiot. You say the solution if same faction PvP (Pk). Well you brought a 40 person raid and they brought a 160 person raid. Their riad supper force acts like a single minded killing machine, while your 40 person raid does not. As a result your raid does not see OWD XP, Loot for 6 to 8 months possibly longer. Ever notice how causing other frustration is the most fun to be had in game?
Instance has nothing to do with "Chosen One Story Content", or Convenience from waiting. It is all about segregating people from Griefers. You can't write about OWD and not address their use as a Griefing tool. It's unethical, and incompetent.
Not all things work like WoW... the world existed before WoW
I didn't mention WoW, and you didn't address Camping and Ninja Looting. Is that because those are the actual feature wanted from OWDs? Why not drop the pretext of OWD and ask for Camping and Ninja Looting?
Nothing wrong with camping. Ninja loot. Do you mean other people got your trophy for showing up?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If someone is being harassed, attacked, or abused by another player, they have the right to seek safety from that abuser. When our rights infringe on the right of others, our rights end.
Except (and I know this sounds like a broken record) if one is playing an ffa pvp game they either should like ffa pvp or be completley accepting of its consequences.
Otherwise "you did this to you".
While I enjoy open world pvp in truth I just like sieges. If there was no pvp other than a huge siege every two weeks or so I would be happy with that pvp state.
But I play open world pvp games and I accept that I can get ganked. All I do is hit "back to town" or "to closest node" and I move on with my life. Or we go back and try to get our attackers. There's a certain fun to that.
Someone with your stance on open world pvp should not be playing a game with it. This way you don't get aggravation and have to deal with people and activities you don't like.
No. There is no, you did something so your right to safety is invalid clause. The ability to infringe upon the rights of others are not protected. Your argument is invalid, I'm sorry to have to tell you. Please do not use it again. One can say that your argument is the definition of "Unconstitutional."
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
If someone is being harassed, attacked, or abused by another player, they have the right to seek safety from that abuser. When our rights infringe on the right of others, our rights end.
Except (and I know this sounds like a broken record) if one is playing an ffa pvp game they either should like ffa pvp or be completley accepting of its consequences.
Otherwise "you did this to you".
While I enjoy open world pvp in truth I just like sieges. If there was no pvp other than a huge siege every two weeks or so I would be happy with that pvp state.
But I play open world pvp games and I accept that I can get ganked. All I do is hit "back to town" or "to closest node" and I move on with my life. Or we go back and try to get our attackers. There's a certain fun to that.
Someone with your stance on open world pvp should not be playing a game with it. This way you don't get aggravation and have to deal with people and activities you don't like.
Thank you for responding to this. Saved me some time and facepalming
The only purpose Open World Dungeons (OWD) serve is for Camping and Ninja Looting. Since the author did address this I assume he is an idiot. If your 40 person raid was followed into a OWD by another 40 person raid. Only to have them jump in and steal every Named Boss (and its loot drop) in the Dungeon. Or to fight your way to a Named Boss only to find others Camping the spawn of that Named Boss.
OWD = Denial Of Service (DOS), it's all about preventing access of game content to others. Nothing more. Again the author didn't address this, so must I assume he is an idiot. You say the solution if same faction PvP (Pk). Well you brought a 40 person raid and they brought a 160 person raid. Their riad supper force acts like a single minded killing machine, while your 40 person raid does not. As a result your raid does not see OWD XP, Loot for 6 to 8 months possibly longer. Ever notice how causing other frustration is the most fun to be had in game?
Instance has nothing to do with "Chosen One Story Content", or Convenience from waiting. It is all about segregating people from Griefers. You can't write about OWD and not address their use as a Griefing tool. It's unethical, and incompetent.
Not all things work like WoW... the world existed before WoW
The world that existed before WoW was much smaller than the world WoW helped build.
We're talking about EQ with 400k players split across ~20 servers, to WoW with (at its peak) 12M subscribers.
When your player base is much larger, open world content becomes a deterrent and only works if the game is designed around FFA PvP where you can defer to the issues it creates by simply telling them to fight over it.
WoW can take it's 12m players back to the casual, single player games they came from as far as I'm concerned. Maybe MMO's would stop being designed as single player experiences with cleverly disguised hubs and mechanics to simulate massively multiplayer gaming.
You're getting griefing confused with play mechanics. Sounds like you just have it out for true open world experiences. Maybe you should head back to the themepark if thats how you feel about player interaction?
WoW can take it's 12m players back to the casual, single player games they came from as far as I'm concerned.
Problem has been that ever since WOW the developers, or rather the money people behind the developers, want crazy WOW money. Hell even a large portion of the players and lots of the posters here define MMO success as a game maintaining a WOW-like sub model and approaching their player numbers.
The reality is that the original hard core MMO player base has remained fairly small. It takes a developer with some cojones and the ability to resist the allure of possible big money to target their game at the smallish non-mainstream MMORPG-loving audience
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
The inherited issue of open world, like DMKano pointed out above, is the overcrowding and themepark design condense players into specific areas as they progress through the game.
Fighting over mob spawns is no fun to anyone.
But again for a PVP game they work great as long as you are not a solo or small guild kind of player. Larger guilds will rule the roost and kill anyone that they don't approve of doing the area.
Any one who thinks ESO public dungeons are good never played Vanguard.
The dungeons were semi-instanced though, you had to zone into the dungeon, but it's one dungeon for all the players. It's sort of the same concept BDO has, but you don't actually see a zone change. They just don't have enough "dungeons" yet, going down the well is pretty cool though. Still not quite the same feeling, but epic in it's own way.
This is why I'm hopeful for Camelot Unchained, since they met the step goal of adding "The Depths," to the game - which is the tribute to Darkness Falls.
WOW made instances to get rid of the ass hats in games and allow smaller groups of players to enjoy the content. This is what made WOW a very popular game. The problem with instances is that LFD came around and killed the social aspect of MMOs. Now they are more toxic and these people will find ways of interrupting other players open world experience. The only solution is to remove LFDs and go back to Vanilla WOW\TBC like instances.
Indeed. All dungeons in Asheron's Call were open dungeon and there are a few hundred of them. If you played on the PVP server some groups made it a habit of owning dungeons. It was interesting and fun even on the non-pvp server I could just randomly bump into people and team up.
Pantheon will be the next Mmo to give us those epic open world dungeons and out door open dungeons, Raz Incur anyone.
These are all group dungeons I'm talking about not raid dungeons.
WOW perfected the instanced duingeons/solo up top type of play.
If the game is not designed around grouping, then there is no reason to have open world dungeons. You can still have a good game. EQ2 and WOW are good games that have instanced dungeons.
The problem is LAZY design. Enter one of those dungeons in Elder Scrolls Online, and you will see the problem. The design is the same. You enter, travel to the end, then click a door and wind up at the beginning (just like Oblivion and Skyrim). Cheap, easy to make, and they can churn them out in the hundreds.
Old school EQ dungeons were better designed, just the technology was awful in places like Unrest and Mistmoore.....
But, I dare you to find ONE single game experience today in any MMO since WOW that equaled or even came close to the thrill of a massive train in Castle Mistmoore. IF you played EQ, you know exactly what I am talking about and if you never experienced it, well then you missed out.
--John Ruskin
Openworld dungeons should be large by defenition, and have different mechanics then openworld areas that make them more dangerous, things like mob trains and such come to mind..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I liked the fact I could spend days inside dungeons with my guild mates as we pulled monsters and slowly made our way to the bosses. Slay your groups way to a safe spot and log out, relog in next day and continue.
The last game that had true open world dungeons for me was EQ2, TESO tried to bring them back, but they are far too small and can be done solo.
DAoC all their dungeons was open world, there was a loading time for them but once inside you would notice that other groups were also inside killing monsters. Also their dungeons were massive with plenty of safe spots and monsters inside with reasonable spawn times. A dungeon could range from being level 10 to level 20 depending on how deep it could go.
They never stopped working for me and many others.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I agree they never stopped working part of what you wrote. Old ideas seem to have to be presented as new things to the kids these days. They don't want to play that which the old gamers played. Oh, and they do have to be rewarded for "tough" (AKA EZ-mode) activity.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Nothing wrong with camping. Ninja loot. Do you mean other people got your trophy for showing up?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
No. There is no, you did something so your right to safety is invalid clause. The ability to infringe upon the rights of others are not protected. Your argument is invalid, I'm sorry to have to tell you. Please do not use it again. One can say that your argument is the definition of "Unconstitutional."
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Thank you for responding to this. Saved me some time and facepalming
WoW can take it's 12m players back to the casual, single player games they came from as far as I'm concerned. Maybe MMO's would stop being designed as single player experiences with cleverly disguised hubs and mechanics to simulate massively multiplayer gaming. You're getting griefing confused with play mechanics. Sounds like you just have it out for true open world experiences. Maybe you should head back to the themepark if thats how you feel about player interaction?
The reality is that the original hard core MMO player base has remained fairly small. It takes a developer with some cojones and the ability to resist the allure of possible big money to target their game at the smallish non-mainstream MMORPG-loving audience
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED