Strength Different Between Level Should be Minimized

nerovergil

Character level was a framework for all mmorpg. Level cant be removed, unless in an insta pvp arena, like gw2 spvp. (and in my opinion all mmorpg should have insta spvp matchmaking like gw2 with max gear and level.)

The different between level 1 character and the max level character, let say level 100 must be so little. very little different that makes high skilled level 1 player can beat a medium skill level 100 player.

If this is guild war 2, the different between lvl 1 and lv 100 is, 

1. level 100 with max legendary gear, max gear enchantment, legendary food only has +1000 health and +1000 damage compared to level 1 with all basic gear, basic gear enchantment and basic food buff

if level 1 hit level 100 for 2k damage, level 100 hit level 1 for 3k damage. If level 1 has 10k health, level 100 has 11k health.

Why i want its to be like this? because many modern player complain, including me,  i think mmorpg need a change. We want insta fun with some element of progression.

We all have life, need to work, cant grinding for hours just to be competitive.

With this little different, grinding is optional. u can be competitive without grinding. player who grinding will have advantage, but very little. level 1 player can fight level 100 player.

With this system, Developer can make leveling required a huge grinding amount.  this is to prolong the game lifetime (player will lose interest if they already reach max level). and to sell something in cash shop (like x2 exp scroll)

Po_gg

Sorry, but this has quite a few wrongs in there...

nerovergil said:

Character level was a framework for all mmorpg. Level cant be removed, unless in an insta pvp arena, like gw2 spvp.

TSW for example doesn't have levels (so it can be removed ) and while it has some pvp, that part is the least important.

In TSW the difference is pretty much what you've described - if we ignore the god-like wings, of course   but that's just a late addition, for years the distance was minimal.
If you compare a fresh character right out of the tutorial, and a character at the endgame doing NM raids... the latter has +33% HP, has +10ish % mitigation, and some innate bonuses on weapons, so if both of them grabbing the same newbie shotgun for example, the endgame player will deal a bit more damage with it. That's it.

In sight of "regular" MMOs where simply just gaining a dozen levels doubles your HP for example, the difference in TSW is minimal.
But since progression is needed (unfortunately, for me personally story progression would be enough ), they added gear progression. So, if you don't compare two naked characters, the difference becomes quite large.  Sure, if you have someone charitable, who donates you a set of 10.x pieces, you can get your newbie character to a point where you can equip those pieces fairly quick, and then the difference will be slight again...  

This is maybe the only part I really don't like in TSW, the massive gear grind at the end... Even with the added daily mechanics, and the barter token revamp, it's a real pain to reach end(ish) gear. And it's pretty much nullified one of the best part of TSW, the flexibility. Since grinding out a cool endgame set is tedious, most folks do it only for their main role, and stop there.
Sure, a healing deck with a capped dps gear is still better than a healing deck with an average healing gear, but there'll always be the little voice whispering "if only you'd waste 4 more months, you'd heal much better when you're in a healing mood". It's like a little sting, in the back. And as Marsellus said, F it :awesome:   (https://youtu.be/ruhFmBrl4GM )

nerovergil said:

With this system, Developer can make leveling required a huge grinding amount.  this is to prolong the game lifetime (player will lose interest if they already reach max level). and to sell something in cash shop (like x2 exp scroll)

Right, because players want a "prolonged lifetime" where it's purely just grind, and they also want "something to sell in cash shop"
Maybe in SK, but I'm pretty sure there are tons of player who don't like grind and cash shop...

deniter

I say scrap the idea of PvP and give us progressive PvE MMO experience with good grinds that keeps us entertained for several years.

Players interested in killing other players has better options - LoL, CoD, etc.

MMOs are already f%cked up for people who seek decent massively multiplayer online role playing gaming experience because of mouth breathing wtfpwn wannabe e-sporters and companies who think they can maximise customer base by including several genres in one game.

Kyleran

nerovergil said:

Character level was a framework for all mmorpg. Level cant be removed, unless in an insta pvp arena, like gw2 spvp. (and in my opinion all mmorpg should have insta spvp matchmaking like gw2 with max gear and level.)

The different between level 1 character and the max level character, let say level 100 must be so little. very little different that makes high skilled level 1 player can beat a medium skill level 100 player.

If this is guild war 2, the different between lvl 1 and lv 100 is, 

1. level 100 with max legendary gear, max gear enchantment, legendary food only has +1000 health and +1000 damage compared to level 1 with all basic gear, basic gear enchantment and basic food buff

if level 1 hit level 100 for 2k damage, level 100 hit level 1 for 3k damage. If level 1 has 10k health, level 100 has 11k health.

Why i want its to be like this? because many modern player complain, including me,  i think mmorpg need a change. We want insta fun with some element of progression.

We all have life, need to work, cant grinding for hours just to be competitive.

With this little different, grinding is optional. u can be competitive without grinding. player who grinding will have advantage, but very little. level 1 player can fight level 100 player.

With this system, Developer can make leveling required a huge grinding amount.  this is to prolong the game lifetime (player will lose interest if they already reach max level). and to sell something in cash shop (like x2 exp scroll)

Please, just leave the genre and go play Overwatch or LOL. I never want to see another "insta fun" MMORPG created.

By their very nature they are supposed to have combat heavily influenced by progression mechanics, generally favoring those who put in time and or effort to climb to the top of the hill so they can kick everyone else off.

See EVE, classic DAOC, EQ1 1999, vanilla WOW even for progression and grind done "right."

The simplification, removal of socialization mechanics and catering to casuals basically brought the MMORPG genre to its knees.

We can only hope the new indie reincarnation can bring back enjoyable and playable games ince again.

cameltosis

Power gaps are a massive problem in MMOs and, in my opinion, really hurt the longevity of any game because power gaps end up segregating the community - never a good thing when the community is what keeps a game going. 


However, its a battle where both sides are right. 


If you have a game with power gaps, it means your game has personal progression - the longer you play, the stronger your character gets which provides positive feedback to the player - something essential for hooking players in. However, this makes it harder to find other people to play with which kills the grouping scene (in comparison to its full potential) and really hurts pvp. Even at endgame where the power gap should shrink, most MMOs keep power gaps going through gear progression. 

The alternative is to scrap power gaps. This has the added benefit of making finding groups really easy, because there are going to be tons more players of a suitable level/gear/power. Grouping is how you make friends, its how you form guilds, its how you build a community. A strong community is what keeps an MMO alive. However, if you remove the vertical progression, you also remove a lot of motivation to continue playing. Why grind a raid for 4 months if you aren't going to get any better?

The only time power gaps work without too much detrimental effects is when your population is massive, which is why WoW gets away with it. If your community is sufficiently large enough then finding similar players becomes easy. However, it is stupid for a developer to assume their game is going to permanently have a massive playerbase. 


The ultimate solution, in my mind, is horizontal progression. It is rarely seen in MMOs and is often done badly, but it is quite common outside of MMOs. The "best" example is probably the Call of Duty games. Unlocking a sniper rifle isn't necessarily going to make you better, it just offers you a different style of gameplay. Sure, there is still some vertical progression but power gaps in games like CoD are very small, it is mostly horizontal progression and it works very well. 


LotRO is the only MMO I've played with horizontal progression (vanilla). It still had vertical progression whilst leveling, but when you reached cap (50), there were 4 endgame sets (crit crafted, helegrod raid, rift raid and pvp) which were all roughly equivalent. Each set offered bonuses that made you better in some areas and worse in others, so overall power was the same but you could customise to suit your playstyle once you had all sets. 

The upshot was that participation in endgame activities was excellent and all inclusive - you didn't have to grind armour for months to be able to raid, then grind that raid for months to do the next raid. Pretty much everyone could take part in endgame, making grouping easier. It generated an excellent social atmosphere and still provided you with rewards to aim for. 

nerovergil

cameltosis said:

Power gaps are a massive problem in MMOs and, in my opinion, really hurt the longevity of any game because power gaps end up segregating the community - never a good thing when the community is what keeps a game going. 


However, its a battle where both sides are right. 


If you have a game with power gaps, it means your game has personal progression - the longer you play, the stronger your character gets which provides positive feedback to the player - something essential for hooking players in. However, this makes it harder to find other people to play with which kills the grouping scene (in comparison to its full potential) and really hurts pvp. Even at endgame where the power gap should shrink, most MMOs keep power gaps going through gear progression. 

The alternative is to scrap power gaps. This has the added benefit of making finding groups really easy, because there are going to be tons more players of a suitable level/gear/power. Grouping is how you make friends, its how you form guilds, its how you build a community. A strong community is what keeps an MMO alive. However, if you remove the vertical progression, you also remove a lot of motivation to continue playing. Why grind a raid for 4 months if you aren't going to get any better?

The only time power gaps work without too much detrimental effects is when your population is massive, which is why WoW gets away with it. If your community is sufficiently large enough then finding similar players becomes easy. However, it is stupid for a developer to assume their game is going to permanently have a massive playerbase. 


The ultimate solution, in my mind, is horizontal progression. It is rarely seen in MMOs and is often done badly, but it is quite common outside of MMOs. The "best" example is probably the Call of Duty games. Unlocking a sniper rifle isn't necessarily going to make you better, it just offers you a different style of gameplay. Sure, there is still some vertical progression but power gaps in games like CoD are very small, it is mostly horizontal progression and it works very well. 


LotRO is the only MMO I've played with horizontal progression (vanilla). It still had vertical progression whilst leveling, but when you reached cap (50), there were 4 endgame sets (crit crafted, helegrod raid, rift raid and pvp) which were all roughly equivalent. Each set offered bonuses that made you better in some areas and worse in others, so overall power was the same but you could customise to suit your playstyle once you had all sets. 

The upshot was that participation in endgame activities was excellent and all inclusive - you didn't have to grind armour for months to be able to raid, then grind that raid for months to do the next raid. Pretty much everyone could take part in endgame, making grouping easier. It generated an excellent social atmosphere and still provided you with rewards to aim for. 

i still like classic mmorpg style for progression. cod, battlefield style no-no

nerovergil

deniter said:

I say scrap the idea of PvP and give us progressive PvE MMO experience with good grinds that keeps us entertained for several years.

Players interested in killing other players has better options - LoL, CoD, etc.

MMOs are already f%cked up for people who seek decent massively multiplayer online role playing gaming experience because of mouth breathing wtfpwn wannabe e-sporters and companies who think they can maximise customer base by including several genres in one game.

do u know how dead mmorpg right now? pve based mmo mostly empty. gw2 was crowded in wvw map and spvp, teso pvp is not newbie friendly, veteran player 1 shoot me

most moba is isometric camera with bad graphic art. i want something like gw2, black desert and archeage, 3rd person camera.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Shaigh

Worst part of power gaps is that it separates you from your friends and your guild making it much harder to play together. 

cameltosis

nerovergil said:

cameltosis said:

Power gaps are a massive problem in MMOs and, in my opinion, really hurt the longevity of any game because power gaps end up segregating the community - never a good thing when the community is what keeps a game going. 


However, its a battle where both sides are right. 


If you have a game with power gaps, it means your game has personal progression - the longer you play, the stronger your character gets which provides positive feedback to the player - something essential for hooking players in. However, this makes it harder to find other people to play with which kills the grouping scene (in comparison to its full potential) and really hurts pvp. Even at endgame where the power gap should shrink, most MMOs keep power gaps going through gear progression. 

The alternative is to scrap power gaps. This has the added benefit of making finding groups really easy, because there are going to be tons more players of a suitable level/gear/power. Grouping is how you make friends, its how you form guilds, its how you build a community. A strong community is what keeps an MMO alive. However, if you remove the vertical progression, you also remove a lot of motivation to continue playing. Why grind a raid for 4 months if you aren't going to get any better?

The only time power gaps work without too much detrimental effects is when your population is massive, which is why WoW gets away with it. If your community is sufficiently large enough then finding similar players becomes easy. However, it is stupid for a developer to assume their game is going to permanently have a massive playerbase. 


The ultimate solution, in my mind, is horizontal progression. It is rarely seen in MMOs and is often done badly, but it is quite common outside of MMOs. The "best" example is probably the Call of Duty games. Unlocking a sniper rifle isn't necessarily going to make you better, it just offers you a different style of gameplay. Sure, there is still some vertical progression but power gaps in games like CoD are very small, it is mostly horizontal progression and it works very well. 


LotRO is the only MMO I've played with horizontal progression (vanilla). It still had vertical progression whilst leveling, but when you reached cap (50), there were 4 endgame sets (crit crafted, helegrod raid, rift raid and pvp) which were all roughly equivalent. Each set offered bonuses that made you better in some areas and worse in others, so overall power was the same but you could customise to suit your playstyle once you had all sets. 

The upshot was that participation in endgame activities was excellent and all inclusive - you didn't have to grind armour for months to be able to raid, then grind that raid for months to do the next raid. Pretty much everyone could take part in endgame, making grouping easier. It generated an excellent social atmosphere and still provided you with rewards to aim for. 

i still like classic mmorpg style for progression. cod, battlefield style no-no

Well, if you remove vertical progression (power gaps), the result is either no progression or horizontal progression. 

I don't like CoD or Battlefield myself, but I am a fan of horizontal progression and these are just a couple of games that show exactly how well they can work (in terms of hooking players in to long term play). 

vesuvias

nerovergil said:

i still like classic mmorpg style for progression. cod, battlefield style no-no

There is a very good reason that style died over time. As cameltosis pointed out that style is anti-social in its design which largely counter to the entire point of MMOs. Your supposed to play with other folks, adventure with other folks, enjoy your time with other folks. Being separated because of power level only serves the vain achievers. It was never a great concept for the community.

Whats so bizzare is that minor differentials in power is perfectly acceptable for these old styles at level cap. People spent years raiding for those minor 1% power increases at the level cap. 

Whats also counter-intuitive about the old style mmo proponents is that almost always are agianst solo gameplay. The want to play with others, they want to enjoy adventures in a group. Yet they also want to seperate themselves from ability to play with others via their "achievements". This seems less like co-op PvE and more like Competitve PvE, thus we also get the issue of "racing" to the endgame.

nariusseldon

nerovergil said:

The different between level 1 character and the max level character, let say level 100 must be so little. very little different that makes high skilled level 1 player can beat a medium skill level 100 player.

why?

1) there is no "beating" in a PvE game.
2) level 1 don't have to play with level 100
3) If a L100 is power leveling a L1, i bet the L1 wouldn't mind the L100 has a lot more power. 

nerovergil

nariusseldon said:

nerovergil said:

The different between level 1 character and the max level character, let say level 100 must be so little. very little different that makes high skilled level 1 player can beat a medium skill level 100 player.

why?

1) there is no "beating" in a PvE game.
2) level 1 don't have to play with level 100
3) If a L100 is power leveling a L1, i bet the L1 wouldn't mind the L100 has a lot more power. 

did i ever said its a PvE game? This system for open world pvp game like black desert and for game like guild war 2 that has wvw map 

PEACE

nariusseldon

nerovergil said:

nariusseldon said:

nerovergil said:

The different between level 1 character and the max level character, let say level 100 must be so little. very little different that makes high skilled level 1 player can beat a medium skill level 100 player.

why?

1) there is no "beating" in a PvE game.
2) level 1 don't have to play with level 100
3) If a L100 is power leveling a L1, i bet the L1 wouldn't mind the L100 has a lot more power. 

did i ever said its a PvE game? This system for open world pvp game like black desert and for game like guild war 2 that has wvw map 

PEACE

You said, and I quote "for all mmorpg". Since there are pve mmorpgs, your statement clearly applies to some PvE games.

Vermillion_Raventhal

Kyleran said:

nerovergil said:

Character level was a framework for all mmorpg. Level cant be removed, unless in an insta pvp arena, like gw2 spvp. (and in my opinion all mmorpg should have insta spvp matchmaking like gw2 with max gear and level.)

The different between level 1 character and the max level character, let say level 100 must be so little. very little different that makes high skilled level 1 player can beat a medium skill level 100 player.

If this is guild war 2, the different between lvl 1 and lv 100 is, 

1. level 100 with max legendary gear, max gear enchantment, legendary food only has +1000 health and +1000 damage compared to level 1 with all basic gear, basic gear enchantment and basic food buff

if level 1 hit level 100 for 2k damage, level 100 hit level 1 for 3k damage. If level 1 has 10k health, level 100 has 11k health.

Why i want its to be like this? because many modern player complain, including me,  i think mmorpg need a change. We want insta fun with some element of progression.

We all have life, need to work, cant grinding for hours just to be competitive.

With this little different, grinding is optional. u can be competitive without grinding. player who grinding will have advantage, but very little. level 1 player can fight level 100 player.

With this system, Developer can make leveling required a huge grinding amount.  this is to prolong the game lifetime (player will lose interest if they already reach max level). and to sell something in cash shop (like x2 exp scroll)

Please, just leave the genre and go play Overwatch or LOL. I never want to see another "insta fun" MMORPG created.

By their very nature they are supposed to have combat heavily influenced by progression mechanics, generally favoring those who put in time and or effort to climb to the top of the hill so they can kick everyone else off.

See EVE, classic DAOC, EQ1 1999, vanilla WOW even for progression and grind done "right."

The simplification, removal of socialization mechanics and catering to casuals basically brought the MMORPG genre to its knees.

We can only hope the new indie reincarnation can bring back enjoyable and playable games ince again.

I think MMORPG having to be a grind of boring crap is why the genre is the way it is.  Too much of a good thing is always bad.  Focus on second rate combat, grind, vast vertical progression and elitism are the banes of the genre IMO.

For themeparks action adventure style like Zelda would do the it good.  Its how things are drifting anyways with leveling and deleveling to zones.  Grabbing gear to get past gated content should be more completing an epic quest to get a fire cloak to fight an epic dragon than grinding out something to get X level gear from epic dragon 20x times or forced to be level 2000.  In the end you will generally always have things to do because you're not skipping content on the level grind.  The content always stays relevant.  Deleveling its essentially just admitting leveling is in the way.

waynejr2

cameltosis said:

Power gaps are a massive problem in MMOs and, in my opinion, really hurt the longevity of any game because power gaps end up segregating the community - never a good thing when the community is what keeps a game going. 


However, its a battle where both sides are right. 


If you have a game with power gaps, it means your game has personal progression - the longer you play, the stronger your character gets which provides positive feedback to the player - something essential for hooking players in. However, this makes it harder to find other people to play with which kills the grouping scene (in comparison to its full potential) and really hurts pvp. Even at endgame where the power gap should shrink, most MMOs keep power gaps going through gear progression. 

The alternative is to scrap power gaps. This has the added benefit of making finding groups really easy, because there are going to be tons more players of a suitable level/gear/power. Grouping is how you make friends, its how you form guilds, its how you build a community. A strong community is what keeps an MMO alive. However, if you remove the vertical progression, you also remove a lot of motivation to continue playing. Why grind a raid for 4 months if you aren't going to get any better?

The only time power gaps work without too much detrimental effects is when your population is massive, which is why WoW gets away with it. If your community is sufficiently large enough then finding similar players becomes easy. However, it is stupid for a developer to assume their game is going to permanently have a massive playerbase. 


The ultimate solution, in my mind, is horizontal progression. It is rarely seen in MMOs and is often done badly, but it is quite common outside of MMOs. The "best" example is probably the Call of Duty games. Unlocking a sniper rifle isn't necessarily going to make you better, it just offers you a different style of gameplay. Sure, there is still some vertical progression but power gaps in games like CoD are very small, it is mostly horizontal progression and it works very well. 


LotRO is the only MMO I've played with horizontal progression (vanilla). It still had vertical progression whilst leveling, but when you reached cap (50), there were 4 endgame sets (crit crafted, helegrod raid, rift raid and pvp) which were all roughly equivalent. Each set offered bonuses that made you better in some areas and worse in others, so overall power was the same but you could customise to suit your playstyle once you had all sets. 

The upshot was that participation in endgame activities was excellent and all inclusive - you didn't have to grind armour for months to be able to raid, then grind that raid for months to do the next raid. Pretty much everyone could take part in endgame, making grouping easier. It generated an excellent social atmosphere and still provided you with rewards to aim for. 

Back in the day there were people who hated progression in rpgs (Progression is critical in rpgs).  So they created the term vertical progression so they could create the term horizontal progression.   To clarify, horizontal progression really means no progression.

You might want some kind of game, you may believe it to be an rpg, but without progression, you don't have the rpg.  Remember, horizontal progression means no progression.

So you need to find a game that has some of the elements of rpg and your non-progression and call it something else.  Something that doesn't have rpg in the name. 

Vermillion_Raventhal

waynejr2 said:

cameltosis said:

Power gaps are a massive problem in MMOs and, in my opinion, really hurt the longevity of any game because power gaps end up segregating the community - never a good thing when the community is what keeps a game going. 


However, its a battle where both sides are right. 


If you have a game with power gaps, it means your game has personal progression - the longer you play, the stronger your character gets which provides positive feedback to the player - something essential for hooking players in. However, this makes it harder to find other people to play with which kills the grouping scene (in comparison to its full potential) and really hurts pvp. Even at endgame where the power gap should shrink, most MMOs keep power gaps going through gear progression. 

The alternative is to scrap power gaps. This has the added benefit of making finding groups really easy, because there are going to be tons more players of a suitable level/gear/power. Grouping is how you make friends, its how you form guilds, its how you build a community. A strong community is what keeps an MMO alive. However, if you remove the vertical progression, you also remove a lot of motivation to continue playing. Why grind a raid for 4 months if you aren't going to get any better?

The only time power gaps work without too much detrimental effects is when your population is massive, which is why WoW gets away with it. If your community is sufficiently large enough then finding similar players becomes easy. However, it is stupid for a developer to assume their game is going to permanently have a massive playerbase. 


The ultimate solution, in my mind, is horizontal progression. It is rarely seen in MMOs and is often done badly, but it is quite common outside of MMOs. The "best" example is probably the Call of Duty games. Unlocking a sniper rifle isn't necessarily going to make you better, it just offers you a different style of gameplay. Sure, there is still some vertical progression but power gaps in games like CoD are very small, it is mostly horizontal progression and it works very well. 


LotRO is the only MMO I've played with horizontal progression (vanilla). It still had vertical progression whilst leveling, but when you reached cap (50), there were 4 endgame sets (crit crafted, helegrod raid, rift raid and pvp) which were all roughly equivalent. Each set offered bonuses that made you better in some areas and worse in others, so overall power was the same but you could customise to suit your playstyle once you had all sets. 

The upshot was that participation in endgame activities was excellent and all inclusive - you didn't have to grind armour for months to be able to raid, then grind that raid for months to do the next raid. Pretty much everyone could take part in endgame, making grouping easier. It generated an excellent social atmosphere and still provided you with rewards to aim for. 

Back in the day there were people who hated progression in rpgs (Progression is critical in rpgs).  So they created the term vertical progression so they could create the term horizontal progression.   To clarify, horizontal progression really means no progression.

You might want some kind of game, you may believe it to be an rpg, but without progression, you don't have the rpg.  Remember, horizontal progression means no progression.

So you need to find a game that has some of the elements of rpg and your non-progression and call it something else.  Something that doesn't have rpg in the name. 

I think most technically want shallow vertical progression where you're not amassing stupid power.  You're still human but just better.  

RPG does not require you to gain vast power.  Progressing through gaining new abilities to do new stuff vs. killing more is also progression.  If I gain a cloak or spell that gave me protection against heat that allows me to go the lava zone you're not vastly more powerful. 

I don't get why people are so stuck on gaining power that the enemy is always scaled to fight you. It doesn't even make sense most of the time.  Demon of the depths is level 50 next expansion you're fighting timber wolves that are level 60.  

nariusseldon

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

 

RPG does not require you to gain vast power.  Progressing through gaining new abilities to do new stuff vs. killing more is also progression.  If I gain a cloak or spell that gave me protection against heat that allows me to go the lava zone you're not vastly more powerful. 

"vast" is relative and subjective. While technically, you can have progression that give you 0.000001% better dps, who cares about that?

If you gain a spell that protects you from lava, that is power. Now you can go there and kill stuff. That is no different than having a spell that now can kill the lavaman, where you could not before. 

NorseGod

Lets just have maxed characters at creation with full epics. Pfft, who needs a feeling of accomplishment anyways?

Oh, don't forget to make it F2P. Just charge 10 cents every time you click a button. But, it's FREEEEEE!

nariusseldon

NorseGod said:

Lets just have maxed characters at creation with full epics. Pfft, who needs a feeling of accomplishment anyways?

Sort of like The Overwatch, and all the online shooters?

NorseGod

nariusseldon said:

NorseGod said:

Lets just have maxed characters at creation with full epics. Pfft, who needs a feeling of accomplishment anyways?

Sort of like The Overwatch, and all the online shooters?

I play MMORPGs. I have no opinion or demands for FPS people.

Dagon13

Progression or bust.

That being said, there's no reason for the absurd gap in power that we see from level 1 to max in games like WoW.  I can handle incremental increases as long as I can control them.  For me, progression is all about building the character as I imagine it, not getting arbitrarily stronger just to handle the monsters who get the same amount of arbitrarily stronger.

kaiser3282

I kind of agree with the OP. I prefer less vertical progression than is offered in WoW and similar games. Let's be real, all that power that you "worked" for is just a mind game. Sure, you hit 100x harder, but everything meaningful you're going to be fighting also has 100x more hp. It still takes you just as long to kill stuff designed for your level as it did at level 1, or 10, or 50. The only time you actually feel extremely powerful is if you're off killing enemies or players many levels below you, which makes going back and fighting those thing dull and extremely easy.

I'd much rather have a game where I can go back to old content to play with friends, or complete achievements, or just to revisit areas I enjoyed and know that I can't just be asleep at the keyboard and still decimate everything around me. I would still enjoy a little bit of a challenge with a feeling of being just slightly more powerful.

At the  same time I would also enjoy the reverse, the ability to go off into more challenging areas and still be able to hold my own in a fight through knowing my character well and utilizing the full potential of my abilities rather than having to meet some arbitrary requirement that results in me getting 1 shot and doing no damage if I don't meet it. 

The old system of huge power gaps just isn't appealing anymore. All it results in is people powering through levels to hit cap then start the "real" game of end game grinding for small improvements in power. Why create that atmosphere when you can have gradual progression throughout the game, make use of the entire world and all of it's content, and let people come together all over to face challenges instead of being boxed into repeatedly doing the same 5-10% of the content that makes up the end game grind.

k61977

If I wanted to play a game like this I would go play one of the hundred pvp lobby games that already exist.  That is what it sounds like to me. 

I want to see my character getting stronger and stronger.  I want gaps between someone who is level 1 and level 100.  But then again I enjoy the pve aspect more than the pvp in most games.  I enjoy leveling, but not gear grinds, so I usually stop playing when I can no longer get better through leveling.

st4t1ck

I do agree that most games have power gaps in them the fracture the player base.  but to me ffxi had a good solution to the problem, there version of level sync, would allow everyone in group to level down to the lowest level in the group... so if you had a couple 40's and a 25 you and you gear could level down to 25, but you would be a 25 at max stats for that level.    
 
 allowed me to group with max level guildies, and they still got max experience for their level

nerovergil

st4t1ck said:

I do agree that most games have power gaps in them the fracture the player base.  but to me ffxi had a good solution to the problem, there version of level sync, would allow everyone in group to level down to the lowest level in the group... so if you had a couple 40's and a 25 you and you gear could level down to 25, but you would be a 25 at max stats for that level.    
 
 allowed me to group with max level guildies, and they still got max experience for their level

pretty good but unimmersive. why suddently downgrade? for what role play reason?