OP, it seems to me that regular co-ops/multiplayer games are for you, not MMOs. Especially since you "can't grind for hours". Also, MMOs doesn't need to change, just because YOU want endgame contents right from the start.
OP, it seems to me that regular co-ops/multiplayer games are for you, not MMOs. Especially since you "can't grind for hours". Also, MMOs doesn't need to change, just because YOU want endgame contents right from the start.
mmorpg doesnt need massive grind. mmorpg stand for what? not massively grinding nolifer roleplaying game
Character level was a framework for all mmorpg. Level cant be removed, unless in an insta pvp arena, like gw2 spvp. (and in my opinion all mmorpg should have insta spvp matchmaking like gw2 with max gear and level.)
The different between level 1 character and the max level character, let say level 100 must be so little. very little different that makes high skilled level 1 player can beat a medium skill level 100 player.
If this is guild war 2, the different between lvl 1 and lv 100 is,
1. level 100 with max legendary gear, max gear enchantment, legendary food only has +1000 health and +1000 damage compared to level 1 with all basic gear, basic gear enchantment and basic food buff
if level 1 hit level 100 for 2k damage, level 100 hit level 1 for 3k damage. If level 1 has 10k health, level 100 has 11k health.
Why i want its to be like this? because many modern player complain, including me, i think mmorpg need a change. We want insta fun with some element of progression.
We all have life, need to work, cant grinding for hours just to be competitive.
With this little different, grinding is optional. u can be competitive without grinding. player who grinding will have advantage, but very little. level 1 player can fight level 100 player.
With this system, Developer can make leveling required a huge grinding amount. this is to prolong the game lifetime (player will lose interest if they already reach max level). and to sell something in cash shop (like x2 exp scroll)
Please, just leave the genre and go play Overwatch or LOL. I never want to see another "insta fun" MMORPG created.
By their very nature they are supposed to have combat heavily influenced by progression mechanics, generally favoring those who put in time and or effort to climb to the top of the hill so they can kick everyone else off.
See EVE, classic DAOC, EQ1 1999, vanilla WOW even for progression and grind done "right."
The simplification, removal of socialization mechanics and catering to casuals basically brought the MMORPG genre to its knees.
We can only hope the new indie reincarnation can bring back enjoyable and playable games ince again.
For a pvp focused game I think the OP has a strong point.
Minimizing level/gear gaps doesn't necessarily mean that the game is "insta fun" in the negative sense you imply. Nor does it mean that a game will be simpler, less "social", or more "casual".
What it does do is shift the focus from grinding for gear/levels to practising to hone skill. It also makes group coordination (socialization) and knowledge of game mechanics much more important, since no one can just let gear carry them.
I have always found it strange that games like Darkfall, Mortal Online, and Black Desert are touted as "pvp games", because most of a player's time is spent in some kind of pve grind to get the power to be about to compete in pvp. In many cases that part of it is not even really "rpg" as far as I can tell- its just boring.
Something similar to what you suggested happened in DAOC when it was first released, before all the expansions. Darkness falls was an awesome dungeon and the fights that kicked off were often a high level opposing faction member being rushed by loads of lower levels.
I remember an encounter where the only opposing faction peep that remained was max level and we had a big group of peeps mostly 30 levels below him. After suffering his taunts the whole group rushed him, most got slaughtered but we ganked the bugger down and he died...best pvp death I have ever seen.
You will not see that happen again unfortunately ;(
Power gaps are a massive problem in MMOs and, in my opinion, really hurt the longevity of any game because power gaps end up segregating the community - never a good thing when the community is what keeps a game going.
However, its a battle where both sides are right.
If you have a game with power gaps, it means your game has personal progression - the longer you play, the stronger your character gets which provides positive feedback to the player - something essential for hooking players in. However, this makes it harder to find other people to play with which kills the grouping scene (in comparison to its full potential) and really hurts pvp. Even at endgame where the power gap should shrink, most MMOs keep power gaps going through gear progression.
The alternative is to scrap power gaps. This has the added benefit of making finding groups really easy, because there are going to be tons more players of a suitable level/gear/power. Grouping is how you make friends, its how you form guilds, its how you build a community. A strong community is what keeps an MMO alive. However, if you remove the vertical progression, you also remove a lot of motivation to continue playing. Why grind a raid for 4 months if you aren't going to get any better?
The only time power gaps work without too much detrimental effects is when your population is massive, which is why WoW gets away with it. If your community is sufficiently large enough then finding similar players becomes easy. However, it is stupid for a developer to assume their game is going to permanently have a massive playerbase.
The ultimate solution, in my mind, is horizontal progression. It is rarely seen in MMOs and is often done badly, but it is quite common outside of MMOs. The "best" example is probably the Call of Duty games. Unlocking a sniper rifle isn't necessarily going to make you better, it just offers you a different style of gameplay. Sure, there is still some vertical progression but power gaps in games like CoD are very small, it is mostly horizontal progression and it works very well.
LotRO is the only MMO I've played with horizontal progression (vanilla). It still had vertical progression whilst leveling, but when you reached cap (50), there were 4 endgame sets (crit crafted, helegrod raid, rift raid and pvp) which were all roughly equivalent. Each set offered bonuses that made you better in some areas and worse in others, so overall power was the same but you could customise to suit your playstyle once you had all sets.
The upshot was that participation in endgame activities was excellent and all inclusive - you didn't have to grind armour for months to be able to raid, then grind that raid for months to do the next raid. Pretty much everyone could take part in endgame, making grouping easier. It generated an excellent social atmosphere and still provided you with rewards to aim for.
Back in the day there were people who hated progression in rpgs (Progression is critical in rpgs). So they created the term vertical progression so they could create the term horizontal progression. To clarify, horizontal progression really means no progression.
You might want some kind of game, you may believe it to be an rpg, but without progression, you don't have the rpg. Remember, horizontal progression means no progression.
So you need to find a game that has some of the elements of rpg and your non-progression and call it something else. Something that doesn't have rpg in the name.
Horizontal progression is still progression. The horizontal / vertical terminology only relates to power - it is still possible to progress in many other ways without affecting the overall power of your character.
Using LotRO (vanilla) as my example of how horizontal progression works, I'll take you over the Captain's endgame armour.
Crit Crafted Heavy Armour (50) Once you hit level cap, you could craft/buy the best crafted gear in the game. The set had a lot of stats on it, balanced our, giving your character an all-round, balanced level of power. However, it lacked set bonuses.
Helegrod Raid (50) Helegrod was the first raid released for LotRO. The armour set had slightly less stats on it than the crafted set but the set bonus increased healing output. So, overall power was the same as crafted, but this set was specialised towards healing with less damage output.
Rift Raid (50) This set was again, slightly less stats than crafted but the stats more leaned towards damage and mitigation. The set bonus was also leaning that way, adding shadow mitigation and insta-rez capability. Again, overall power level same as helegrod and crafted, just specialised in a different way.
PvP (50) The PvP set had the same stats as the helegrod set, just with different set bonuses more geared towards pvp.
This is the perfect example of how to do horizontal progression right. Once you hit 50, overall power was the same between everyone as long as you had one endgame set. This meant basically everyone could participate in all endgame activities because everyone could just buy crafted gear, but there was still motivation to collect the other endgame sets because they allowed you to alter your playstyle and also specialise for certain fights.
For example, I always loved DPS'ing so I worked hard to get the rift set and build my character towards dps / criting. This meant my healing abilities dropped off a lot compared to other captains so in some tough fights. This then motivated me to grind out the helegrod set so that in tough raids / bosses, I could switch gear/specs and thus heal twice as much.
Expanding this more generally, not only can gear have very valid horizontal progression (overall power is equal, but gear becomes specialised in some areas at the expense of others), but most MMOs already have horizontal skill progression built in.
In almost every MMO I've played, skill progression is horizontal. You unlock new skills which allow you to do different things. Some might be powerful, some might be weak, some might be utility etc. A lot of this is pure horizontal progression - you are allowing yourself to develop new rotations and specs which help you specialise, but might not necessarily make you more powerful. The only MMO I've played with vertical skill progression is SWG, where you'd start with like "Polearm Hit 1", then unlock "Polearm Hit 2" which was the same skill, just more powerful. Thankfully, that is rare.
So, horizontal progression is real, it does exist, it does work. However, it is hard to do right, which is why it is rare in mmos.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Lets just have maxed characters at creation with full epics. Pfft, who needs a feeling of accomplishment anyways?
Sort of like The Overwatch, and all the online shooters?
Exactly! Which is why I recommended them (or MOBAs) to the OP.
Let's just leave progression mechanics firmly in MMORPGs where it belongs.
As someone else said, without progression you have some other sort of game, but clearly not a MMORPG.
Lack of gear/level gap is not what differentiates mobas /shooters from mmorpgs. For example in those types of games your character has no persistence, and no real identity. There is no persistent world, no massive battles, in short nothing outside of the mini game.
Indeed there are mobas/shooters which have gear/level gaps. That doesn't make them mmorpgs, but it does create similar issues that come up in mmorpgs with massive gear/level gaps.
I am hoping Crowfall or CU will be games that are truly focused on pvp, and not on a pve grind to see who has the best gear. Surely there is room for a few pvp mmos that aren't just about who pves the hardest?
Lets just have maxed characters at creation with full epics. Pfft, who needs a feeling of accomplishment anyways?
Sort of like The Overwatch, and all the online shooters?
Exactly! Which is why I recommended them (or MOBAs) to the OP.
Let's just leave progression mechanics firmly in MMORPGs where it belongs.
As someone else said, without progression you have some other sort of game, but clearly not a MMORPG.
if there is a good moba with good character creation, short 15 minutes matchmaking (like spvp gw2) i will play. im tired playing 1 hour long game like dota/lol
Lets just have maxed characters at creation with full epics. Pfft, who needs a feeling of accomplishment anyways?
Sort of like The Overwatch, and all the online shooters?
Exactly! Which is why I recommended them (or MOBAs) to the OP.
Let's just leave progression mechanics firmly in MMORPGs where it belongs.
As someone else said, without progression you have some other sort of game, but clearly not a MMORPG.
if there is a good moba with good character creation, short 15 minutes matchmaking (like spvp gw2) i will play. im tired playing 1 hour long game like dota/lol
There is nothing like GW2's spvp unfortunately.
Games like Gigantic and Battleborn have similarities but you don't get the character creation or such deep skill building.
I do agree that most games have power gaps in them the fracture the player base. but to me ffxi had a good solution to the problem, there version of level sync, would allow everyone in group to level down to the lowest level in the group... so if you had a couple 40's and a 25 you and you gear could level down to 25, but you would be a 25 at max stats for that level.
allowed me to group with max level guildies, and they still got max experience for their level
pretty good but unimmersive. why suddently downgrade? for what role play reason?
because it was an issue of needing groups, if there were only so many players on your level and you could find a group of people to do that content, you could sync to a lower group and still get max exp for your level, so in essence you had an unlimited amount of players in which to form a group, not just people close to your level, so in turn if you had new members joining you guild you could also help them level up, and still be leveling up at the same time.
I like the prowess system in unholy wars... you get some prowess for most everything that you do and you can distribute it however you want to increase your skills, and the fact that a nooby can participate in endgame content. This makes for a great MMORPG, not like many of them where you may have to solo PVE until you catch up with your friends.
I like long-term character progression though.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
I have noticed a lot of people want something different in MMORPG but when it comes down to it they still want the same themepark troupe.
The vast vertical progression is the engine that drives this genre into the casual mess it is. Why we have tons of filler task. Why we have corridor worlds that only have quest hub content. Why we a focus on single player over mutiplayer.
Vast vertical progression is always a grind or too easy or becomes one of the two. Both become tedious because it's too much or boring trivial filler. This leads to things being made even more casual. I guess that's what players really want.
Character level was a framework for all mmorpg. Level cant be removed, unless in an insta pvp arena, like gw2 spvp. (and in my opinion all mmorpg should have insta spvp matchmaking like gw2 with max gear and level.)
The different between level 1 character and the max level character, let say level 100 must be so little. very little different that makes high skilled level 1 player can beat a medium skill level 100 player.
If this is guild war 2, the different between lvl 1 and lv 100 is,
1. level 100 with max legendary gear, max gear enchantment, legendary food only has +1000 health and +1000 damage compared to level 1 with all basic gear, basic gear enchantment and basic food buff
if level 1 hit level 100 for 2k damage, level 100 hit level 1 for 3k damage. If level 1 has 10k health, level 100 has 11k health.
Why i want its to be like this? because many modern player complain, including me, i think mmorpg need a change. We want insta fun with some element of progression.
We all have life, need to work, cant grinding for hours just to be competitive.
With this little different, grinding is optional. u can be competitive without grinding. player who grinding will have advantage, but very little. level 1 player can fight level 100 player.
With this system, Developer can make leveling required a huge grinding amount. this is to prolong the game lifetime (player will lose interest if they already reach max level). and to sell something in cash shop (like x2 exp scroll)
maybe before whine if the genre not ''okay'' for you, go find a games or genre who fit you !!
looking at you im sure you would enjoy the moba genre, that fit everything you want, quick, fast fun paced
or go play shooter games maybe ? single players ??
what make you think mmorpg fit you anyway ? mmorpg were never about insta gratification, it was about grind grind finds better item, groups with peoples for hard monster, always becoming more strongs.
if you are casual and dont have enough time ? well to BAD FOR YOU !! do you also complain that the counter strike players kill you easy because you dont practice like good players ? do you complain if you play starcraft 2 that you are bronze league ???
why you think that okay whine more in mmorpg genre ?
im honestly thinking the genre listen to much to peoples like you and that the main reason they fail
good instance, LEVEL , item drop with stats, good quest, story, alot of contents are all stuft who dont need change !! or just a bit but not the way you want it because you want the insta gratification and you dont have times !!
stop try change mmorpg into MOBA !! if you dont like mmoprg go play moba of watever genre you like !
I really thought ESO fixed this problem. In GW2 you don't feel completely useless. So yea you can't expect a lvl 20 to be able to kill a max lvl simply because design allows it. Those people on lvl 80's worked hard and deserve something for their efforts.
I really thought ESO fixed this problem. In GW2 you don't feel completely useless. So yea you can't expect a lvl 20 to be able to kill a max lvl simply because design allows it. Those people on lvl 80's worked hard and deserve something for their efforts.
Its actually pretty good in GW2 because not only is the power curve relatively flat, but its really easy to get decent gear for WvW. You can also get the gear from doing whatever activity you like- I like pvp so I can just do spvp have fun, and get nearly the best gear in the game.
Character level was a framework for all mmorpg. Level cant be removed, unless in an insta pvp arena, like gw2 spvp. (and in my opinion all mmorpg should have insta spvp matchmaking like gw2 with max gear and level.)
The different between level 1 character and the max level character, let say level 100 must be so little. very little different that makes high skilled level 1 player can beat a medium skill level 100 player.
If this is guild war 2, the different between lvl 1 and lv 100 is,
1. level 100 with max legendary gear, max gear enchantment, legendary food only has +1000 health and +1000 damage compared to level 1 with all basic gear, basic gear enchantment and basic food buff
if level 1 hit level 100 for 2k damage, level 100 hit level 1 for 3k damage. If level 1 has 10k health, level 100 has 11k health.
Why i want its to be like this? because many modern player complain, including me, i think mmorpg need a change. We want insta fun with some element of progression.
We all have life, need to work, cant grinding for hours just to be competitive.
With this little different, grinding is optional. u can be competitive without grinding. player who grinding will have advantage, but very little. level 1 player can fight level 100 player.
With this system, Developer can make leveling required a huge grinding amount. this is to prolong the game lifetime (player will lose interest if they already reach max level). and to sell something in cash shop (like x2 exp scroll)
maybe before whine if the genre not ''okay'' for you, go find a games or genre who fit you !!
looking at you im sure you would enjoy the moba genre, that fit everything you want, quick, fast fun paced
or go play shooter games maybe ? single players ??
what make you think mmorpg fit you anyway ? mmorpg were never about insta gratification, it was about grind grind finds better item, groups with peoples for hard monster, always becoming more strongs.
if you are casual and dont have enough time ? well to BAD FOR YOU !! do you also complain that the counter strike players kill you easy because you dont practice like good players ? do you complain if you play starcraft 2 that you are bronze league ???
why you think that okay whine more in mmorpg genre ?
im honestly thinking the genre listen to much to peoples like you and that the main reason they fail
good instance, LEVEL , item drop with stats, good quest, story, alot of contents are all stuft who dont need change !! or just a bit but not the way you want it because you want the insta gratification and you dont have times !!
stop try change mmorpg into MOBA !! if you dont like mmoprg go play moba of watever genre you like !
Thing is the vertical progression is what leads to casual gameplay. Most don't feel like doing the same crap mob grinds from 1995 or quest grinds from 2004. Boring game play for reward is dying in the West.
Back in the day there were people who hated progression in rpgs (Progression is critical in rpgs). So they created the term vertical progression so they could create the term horizontal progression. To clarify, horizontal progression really means no progression.
You might want some kind of game, you may believe it to be an rpg, but without progression, you don't have the rpg. Remember, horizontal progression means no progression.
So you need to find a game that has some of the elements of rpg and your non-progression and call it something else. Something that doesn't have rpg in the name.
I think that you are right that Horizontal Progression as it has always been done is basically no progression.
I also think that progression is important because it basically allows your "character" to have an arc of sorts. Stuff you couldn't do before you can do now because you went on the character's journey.
But every character does not need to go from peasant nothing to demi-god.
What is needed is for there to be some great change in how the character interacts with the world that is not some simple or insignificant thing. Time spent leveling is what normally constitutes the journey with the next harder dungeon being a milestone on that journey.
But this brings up the problem with progression: Content cannot keep your arc going
Eventually the progression becomes unsatisfying as it becomes endless and therefore meaningless.
The key is to provide a way for progression to happen as it would in an ongoing story, with ups and downs, not just a long continuous grade upward that terminates in a static point.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
OP, it seems to me that regular co-ops/multiplayer games are for you, not MMOs. Especially since you "can't grind for hours". Also, MMOs doesn't need to change, just because YOU want endgame contents right from the start.
I think is the reverse. MMOs need to become (and are becoming) more like co-op/multiplayer games to survive. Western devs pretty much stopped making new AAA mmorpgs. Blizz scrapped titan, and opt to make a co-op shooter, CCG and MOBA.
In fact, the last big successful MMO is The Division .. more like a MMO hybrid.
Yeah! Exactly! But why stop at levels? Why not limit the gear as well? After all, it's not fair that people who can play more and are willing to put more effort into the game should get better loot, right? Just get rid of gear drops altogether. Everyone should be issued a class-appropriate weapon and armor upon character creation, and that's all they should get. It's only fair, right? Plus it will cut down on people being jealous of how cool somebody else's character looks, because everybody will look the same. Equality, right? Right! But why stop there? It would be even better if there were just one class, with one set of abilities. That would be the best possible way to make sure anyone could beat anybody else.
I also think there should be some sort of software limiter in place to prevent people with faster computers from having an advantage. It's not fair that somebody who makes more money should be able to buy an advantage like that, don't you think? Everybody's computer should be forced to run at the same speed, with the same settings. In fact, there should be no settings for sound or graphics. Things should automatically adjust themselves to the level of the slowest PC in the immediate area, so as to prevent the person using it from feeling that they're at a disadvantage.
Turn rates and mouse sensitivity should be set at the same levels for everybody as well. The same goes for how many key presses the game will recognize per second. It's not fair that some people might be able to afford gaming mice, or have faster reflexes than others, so that advantage needs to be nullified.
Okay, do you see just how stupid that line of thought is now? You want equality (or really close to it), go play a shooter or something. I don't care how little time you have to play, or that you have obligations that limit your gaming time. That's life. Deal with it, or find another hobby. I put up with enough of this kind of socialist garbage IRL, and I sure as hell don't need or want it polluting my hobby.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
Okay, do you see just how stupid that line of thought is now? You want equality (or really close to it), go play a shooter or something. I don't care how little time you have to play, or that you have obligations that limit your gaming time. That's life. Deal with it, or find another hobby. I put up with enough of this kind of socialist garbage IRL, and I sure as hell don't need or want it polluting my hobby.
hmmm .. i am quite sure MMO does not belong to you.
Sure, he can go play a shooter. But if devs want to cater to him, and make pvp "more fair" in MMOs, what is the problem?
Yeah! Exactly! But why stop at levels? Why not limit the gear as well? After all, it's not fair that people who can play more and are willing to put more effort into the game should get better loot, right? Just get rid of gear drops altogether. Everyone should be issued a class-appropriate weapon and armor upon character creation, and that's all they should get. It's only fair, right? Plus it will cut down on people being jealous of how cool somebody else's character looks, because everybody will look the same. Equality, right? Right! But why stop there? It would be even better if there were just one class, with one set of abilities. That would be the best possible way to make sure anyone could beat anybody else.
I also think there should be some sort of software limiter in place to prevent people with faster computers from having an advantage. It's not fair that somebody who makes more money should be able to buy an advantage like that, don't you think? Everybody's computer should be forced to run at the same speed, with the same settings. In fact, there should be no settings for sound or graphics. Things should automatically adjust themselves to the level of the slowest PC in the immediate area, so as to prevent the person using it from feeling that they're at a disadvantage.
Turn rates and mouse sensitivity should be set at the same levels for everybody as well. The same goes for how many key presses the game will recognize per second. It's not fair that some people might be able to afford gaming mice, or have faster reflexes than others, so that advantage needs to be nullified.
Okay, do you see just how stupid that line of thought is now? You want equality (or really close to it), go play a shooter or something. I don't care how little time you have to play, or that you have obligations that limit your gaming time. That's life. Deal with it, or find another hobby. I put up with enough of this kind of socialist garbage IRL, and I sure as hell don't need or want it polluting my hobby.
Comments
For a pvp focused game I think the OP has a strong point.
Minimizing level/gear gaps doesn't necessarily mean that the game is "insta fun" in the negative sense you imply. Nor does it mean that a game will be simpler, less "social", or more "casual".
What it does do is shift the focus from grinding for gear/levels to practising to hone skill. It also makes group coordination (socialization) and knowledge of game mechanics much more important, since no one can just let gear carry them.
I have always found it strange that games like Darkfall, Mortal Online, and Black Desert are touted as "pvp games", because most of a player's time is spent in some kind of pve grind to get the power to be about to compete in pvp. In many cases that part of it is not even really "rpg" as far as I can tell- its just boring.
I remember an encounter where the only opposing faction peep that remained was max level and we had a big group of peeps mostly 30 levels below him. After suffering his taunts the whole group rushed him, most got slaughtered but we ganked the bugger down and he died...best pvp death I have ever seen.
You will not see that happen again unfortunately ;(
Using LotRO (vanilla) as my example of how horizontal progression works, I'll take you over the Captain's endgame armour.
Crit Crafted Heavy Armour (50)
Once you hit level cap, you could craft/buy the best crafted gear in the game. The set had a lot of stats on it, balanced our, giving your character an all-round, balanced level of power. However, it lacked set bonuses.
Helegrod Raid (50)
Helegrod was the first raid released for LotRO. The armour set had slightly less stats on it than the crafted set but the set bonus increased healing output. So, overall power was the same as crafted, but this set was specialised towards healing with less damage output.
Rift Raid (50)
This set was again, slightly less stats than crafted but the stats more leaned towards damage and mitigation. The set bonus was also leaning that way, adding shadow mitigation and insta-rez capability. Again, overall power level same as helegrod and crafted, just specialised in a different way.
PvP (50)
The PvP set had the same stats as the helegrod set, just with different set bonuses more geared towards pvp.
This is the perfect example of how to do horizontal progression right. Once you hit 50, overall power was the same between everyone as long as you had one endgame set. This meant basically everyone could participate in all endgame activities because everyone could just buy crafted gear, but there was still motivation to collect the other endgame sets because they allowed you to alter your playstyle and also specialise for certain fights.
For example, I always loved DPS'ing so I worked hard to get the rift set and build my character towards dps / criting. This meant my healing abilities dropped off a lot compared to other captains so in some tough fights. This then motivated me to grind out the helegrod set so that in tough raids / bosses, I could switch gear/specs and thus heal twice as much.
Expanding this more generally, not only can gear have very valid horizontal progression (overall power is equal, but gear becomes specialised in some areas at the expense of others), but most MMOs already have horizontal skill progression built in.
In almost every MMO I've played, skill progression is horizontal. You unlock new skills which allow you to do different things. Some might be powerful, some might be weak, some might be utility etc. A lot of this is pure horizontal progression - you are allowing yourself to develop new rotations and specs which help you specialise, but might not necessarily make you more powerful. The only MMO I've played with vertical skill progression is SWG, where you'd start with like "Polearm Hit 1", then unlock "Polearm Hit 2" which was the same skill, just more powerful. Thankfully, that is rare.
So, horizontal progression is real, it does exist, it does work. However, it is hard to do right, which is why it is rare in mmos.
Let's just leave progression mechanics firmly in MMORPGs where it belongs.
As someone else said, without progression you have some other sort of game, but clearly not a MMORPG.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Lack of gear/level gap is not what differentiates mobas /shooters from mmorpgs. For example in those types of games your character has no persistence, and no real identity. There is no persistent world, no massive battles, in short nothing outside of the mini game.
Indeed there are mobas/shooters which have gear/level gaps. That doesn't make them mmorpgs, but it does create similar issues that come up in mmorpgs with massive gear/level gaps.
I am hoping Crowfall or CU will be games that are truly focused on pvp, and not on a pve grind to see who has the best gear. Surely there is room for a few pvp mmos that aren't just about who pves the hardest?
Games like Gigantic and Battleborn have similarities but you don't get the character creation or such deep skill building.
I like long-term character progression though.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
The vast vertical progression is the engine that drives this genre into the casual mess it is. Why we have tons of filler task. Why we have corridor worlds that only have quest hub content. Why we a focus on single player over mutiplayer.
Vast vertical progression is always a grind or too easy or becomes one of the two. Both become tedious because it's too much or boring trivial filler. This leads to things being made even more casual. I guess that's what players really want.
looking at you im sure you would enjoy the moba genre, that fit everything you want, quick, fast fun paced
or go play shooter games maybe ? single players ??
what make you think mmorpg fit you anyway ? mmorpg were never about insta gratification, it was about grind grind finds better item, groups with peoples for hard monster, always becoming more strongs.
if you are casual and dont have enough time ? well to BAD FOR YOU !! do you also complain that the counter strike players kill you easy because you dont practice like good players ? do you complain if you play starcraft 2 that you are bronze league ???
why you think that okay whine more in mmorpg genre ?
im honestly thinking the genre listen to much to peoples like you and that the main reason they fail
good instance, LEVEL , item drop with stats, good quest, story, alot of contents are all stuft who dont need change !! or just a bit but not the way you want it because you want the insta gratification and you dont have times !!
stop try change mmorpg into MOBA !! if you dont like mmoprg go play moba of watever genre you like !
I also think that progression is important because it basically allows your "character" to have an arc of sorts. Stuff you couldn't do before you can do now because you went on the character's journey.
But every character does not need to go from peasant nothing to demi-god.
What is needed is for there to be some great change in how the character interacts with the world that is not some simple or insignificant thing. Time spent leveling is what normally constitutes the journey with the next harder dungeon being a milestone on that journey.
But this brings up the problem with progression: Content cannot keep your arc going
Eventually the progression becomes unsatisfying as it becomes endless and therefore meaningless.
The key is to provide a way for progression to happen as it would in an ongoing story, with ups and downs, not just a long continuous grade upward that terminates in a static point.
I think is the reverse. MMOs need to become (and are becoming) more like co-op/multiplayer games to survive. Western devs pretty much stopped making new AAA mmorpgs. Blizz scrapped titan, and opt to make a co-op shooter, CCG and MOBA.
In fact, the last big successful MMO is The Division .. more like a MMO hybrid.
I also think there should be some sort of software limiter in place to prevent people with faster computers from having an advantage. It's not fair that somebody who makes more money should be able to buy an advantage like that, don't you think? Everybody's computer should be forced to run at the same speed, with the same settings. In fact, there should be no settings for sound or graphics. Things should automatically adjust themselves to the level of the slowest PC in the immediate area, so as to prevent the person using it from feeling that they're at a disadvantage.
Turn rates and mouse sensitivity should be set at the same levels for everybody as well. The same goes for how many key presses the game will recognize per second. It's not fair that some people might be able to afford gaming mice, or have faster reflexes than others, so that advantage needs to be nullified.
Okay, do you see just how stupid that line of thought is now? You want equality (or really close to it), go play a shooter or something. I don't care how little time you have to play, or that you have obligations that limit your gaming time. That's life. Deal with it, or find another hobby. I put up with enough of this kind of socialist garbage IRL, and I sure as hell don't need or want it polluting my hobby.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
Sure, he can go play a shooter. But if devs want to cater to him, and make pvp "more fair" in MMOs, what is the problem?