Absolutely the alarm bells are ringing with the way the lead of this project articulates his reasoning. `Just shut up and give us a chance to profit, unless it's positive feedback it's morally wrong because investors might hear you.‘ If wal mart suddenly said critiquing their business practices is wrong because it messes with their money, consumers are meant to accept that?
Heres a novel idea, how bout you produce a product that speaks for itself, or at least the feasible hope for one and maybe some credentials? Then it wouldnt matter as much what people say. And if you can't produce those things you have no ground to stand on if people don't take you seriously as a business.
No, Jeromy's expectations do not approach the realm of common sense. If you come at the public with nothing but an idea, be prepared to face some scrutiny. Guys flipping burgers face scrutiny, time to man up I reckon.
I don't think its at all a scam. These are a ton of ideas that have been
kicked around for years, and a few guys got together and truly believe
they can make it a reality. Regardless of whether I think that its
entirely realistic, I still hope something comes of it. Walsh seems
super motivated and passionate about the game and that can only lead to
good things, even if those things aren't everything they dreamed.
Hell, even if it is everything they dreamed, I still think the game will be plagued with problems. It looks like it was designed more of a role players wet dream, and I think when the hardcore gamers move in who don't care about that aspect of the game, it will be a griefers paradise until there is no one left to grief.
Yeah I don't think it is a scam either. Basically I was saying in a pretty misunderstood post that it seems to me more unlikely than not that they are either grossly ignorant of the task or perpetrating a scam.
I said that Parsimony (Occam's Razor) would seem to indicate that they are earnestly (honestly) trying to build the game that they want.
But
I can't bring myself to buy the fairy wing costume completely because the goal is so lofty and is sugar on the tongue in this very real world of what we have seen from kickstarter/crowdfunded games.
I'm not being negative, or a hater. I would like to play this game, but I wondered if what they are proposing is realistic.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
As a person well versed in software development in multiple industries and environments I pretty well know what is possible and what is not.
This title as well as most others are relying more on elven magic than practical development practices, and their feature list is too large for the proposed budget and timelines.
History will prove me correct, that I'm sure of.
I need only mention a couple ...John Carmack ...Naughty Dog productions,both of which started smaller than most any developer and now are giants in the industry.
Naughty Dog didn' even need to stick around and prove for long as Sony picked them up right quick seeing great skill and potential.Carmack needs no such introduction.
I mentioned in earlier post,nearly ANYTHING is possible and i stand by my words,it is all a matter of weather a dev wants to put in the time and can afford the time.Often times devs work for nothing but their time,with no money coming in besides perhaps a day job.Of course there eventually runs a point where time is no longer an option,a release must be made,it comes down to how many features and how in depth each are and what the team can handle,not everyone is the same. I can simply point to SC,they have more than enough money,a large team but imo a VERY incompetent leader that will slow development down and hold the game back from it's true potential,we are not yet at a point to discuss COE's team and their competence level.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Their promises are too ambitious for what is possible with that kind of funding and time.
The possible outcomes looks to be 1. they try to do it all, and realize have to get more funding and much more time 2. they try to do it all, and release the features in low quality and very minimally implemented. 3. they realize it is better to deliver few but good core features, and work on the rest over the years after release.
@Dakeru "Hard to take people serious who back up their arguments by comparing science and the moon landing to game development."
If you think that was the point I was making then you really need to have a re-think about it. You remind me of a guy I went to school with who, when listening into a conversation about boxing and someone saying that one of the boxers had a glass jaw, stated "no wonder he is gonna lose"...
Even more so when they ignore our arguments and compare us to cartoon donkeys with no other arguments than saying "No!"
Again, if all you read into my post was the literal content of the vids then all I can say is....ouch!
As a person well versed in software development in multiple industries and environments I pretty well know what is possible and what is not.
This title as well as most others are relying more on elven magic than practical development practices, and their feature list is too large for the proposed budget and timelines.
History will prove me correct, that I'm sure of.
I need only mention a couple ...John Carmack ...Naughty Dog productions,both of which started smaller than most any developer and now are giants in the industry.
Naughty Dog didn' even need to stick around and prove for long as Sony picked them up right quick seeing great skill and potential.Carmack needs no such introduction.
I mentioned in earlier post,nearly ANYTHING is possible and i stand by my words,it is all a matter of weather a dev wants to put in the time and can afford the time.Often times devs work for nothing but their time,with no money coming in besides perhaps a day job.Of course there eventually runs a point where time is no longer an option,a release must be made,it comes down to how many features and how in depth each are and what the team can handle,not everyone is the same. I can simply point to SC,they have more than enough money,a large team but imo a VERY incompetent leader that will slow development down and hold the game back from it's true potential,we are not yet at a point to discuss COE's team and their competence level.
Naughty Dog created several titles prior to delivering 3 successful Crash B titles, at which point Sony bought them.
John Carmack was and still is a major "game" developer, but even he has never attempted anything in the MMORPG space.
Both of your examples occurred in the early age of gaming when anything was possible.
This is not that age and I don't believe a full featured MMORPG can be delivered "fast and cheap"
SC's story is nothing new, many a well funded MMORPG effort went down the drain due to poor financial management, not really relevant here.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As a person well versed in software development in multiple industries and environments I pretty well know what is possible and what is not.
This title as well as most others are relying more on elven magic than practical development practices, and their feature list is too large for the proposed budget and timelines.
History will prove me correct, that I'm sure of.
I need only mention a couple ...John Carmack ...Naughty Dog productions,both of which started smaller than most any developer and now are giants in the industry.
Naughty Dog didn' even need to stick around and prove for long as Sony picked them up right quick seeing great skill and potential.Carmack needs no such introduction.
I mentioned in earlier post,nearly ANYTHING is possible and i stand by my words,it is all a matter of weather a dev wants to put in the time and can afford the time.Often times devs work for nothing but their time,with no money coming in besides perhaps a day job.Of course there eventually runs a point where time is no longer an option,a release must be made,it comes down to how many features and how in depth each are and what the team can handle,not everyone is the same. I can simply point to SC,they have more than enough money,a large team but imo a VERY incompetent leader that will slow development down and hold the game back from it's true potential,we are not yet at a point to discuss COE's team and their competence level.
I like the Naughty Dog and John Carmack as examples. Other then both have never attempted to make a MMO just as many great companies before them. Making a single or even just coop game within itself is not hard. Something a small team or even a single person can do. But when you get into a MMO you have taken what a small team can do and reached well beyond that. Even more so when you make claims like 48 hours to walk across the game world, destructible game world, massive pvp battles, ect.
Them are claims that even some of the best teams and people that originally put forth the first working examples of said features can not recreate in a full package that is fun by todays standards. So when a very small team comes out and says they are going to do them all in one package with a small budget then yes people are bring to question that.
How many people do you think $1mil or even $2mil is going to hire? Not nearly enough to pull off said stuff.
Just as an example SC has 100x the funding of CoE and they are trying to accoumplish almost the same thing in space. And they have brought on a lot of core people that know how to make this stuff work togeather and even they are having troubles doing it with a massive team of 400+ people. So why would a team of 10 to 30 people be able to pull it off without the talent?
I want CoE to exceed as much as the next person. It sounds like it could be a solid fun long term MMO and that is something very much lacking in this age. But I will wait the 18 months (lets just say 2 ) and see, cause I doubt at any point within the next 3 years we will get anything resembling what is being solid in this coolaid. Maybe I will be wrong and I will come on and happy admit it while playing the game. I hope that is the case and almost 9 thousand peoplewhere not just taken for $1 mill.
Their promises are too ambitious for what is possible with that kind of funding and time.
The possible outcomes looks to be 1. they try to do it all, and realize have to get more funding and much more time 2. they try to do it all, and release the features in low quality and very minimally implemented. 3. they realize it is better to deliver few but good core features, and work on the rest over the years after release.
Yeah I started this thread because I am a backer and I want the game they described, but I had some doubts. I am grateful for that link @Zultra, and I was glad to see what the guy wrote. I'm obliged to take him at his word because he seems to think that it can be done. I will err on the side of trust.
As I said in a different post I think that Jeromy Walsh (isn't Caspian the guy from Narnia not Elyria?) should probably stop responding to posts with a complaint about having to answer the post. I get that he feels it's annoying but people are going to be a part of this thing so handling them is something he is gonna have to do or he will have to hire someone to respond for him.
It's not a stupid question to wonder if the thing can be completed in time, and while I get that it is insulting for someone to insinuate that you are incompetent or lying, it's all in how you take it. To assume the mantle of being true in your motives, it may be wise to do the same of those who would look to you for great things.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
I don't know what prompted this particular forum bot to reignite this particular pile of forum flatulence again, but I appreciated the brief trip down memory (and delusional) lane. I started life as an archaeologist; I should be more appreciative of flaming midden layers like this.
I need a bath.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Comments
Heres a novel idea, how bout you produce a product that speaks for itself, or at least the feasible hope for one and maybe some credentials? Then it wouldnt matter as much what people say. And if you can't produce those things you have no ground to stand on if people don't take you seriously as a business.
No, Jeromy's expectations do not approach the realm of common sense. If you come at the public with nothing but an idea, be prepared to face some scrutiny. Guys flipping burgers face scrutiny, time to man up I reckon.
I said that Parsimony (Occam's Razor) would seem to indicate that they are earnestly (honestly) trying to build the game that they want.
But
I can't bring myself to buy the fairy wing costume completely because the goal is so lofty and is sugar on the tongue in this very real world of what we have seen from kickstarter/crowdfunded games.
I'm not being negative, or a hater. I would like to play this game, but I wondered if what they are proposing is realistic.
Naughty Dog didn' even need to stick around and prove for long as Sony picked them up right quick seeing great skill and potential.Carmack needs no such introduction.
I mentioned in earlier post,nearly ANYTHING is possible and i stand by my words,it is all a matter of weather a dev wants to put in the time and can afford the time.Often times devs work for nothing but their time,with no money coming in besides perhaps a day job.Of course there eventually runs a point where time is no longer an option,a release must be made,it comes down to how many features and how in depth each are and what the team can handle,not everyone is the same.
I can simply point to SC,they have more than enough money,a large team but imo a VERY incompetent leader that will slow development down and hold the game back from it's true potential,we are not yet at a point to discuss COE's team and their competence level.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
When someone describes their game development: -
When this site learns about it: -
The possible outcomes looks to be 1. they try to do it all, and realize have to get more funding and much more time 2. they try to do it all, and release the features in low quality and very minimally implemented. 3. they realize it is better to deliver few but good core features, and work on the rest over the years after release.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Even more so when they ignore our arguments and compare us to cartoon donkeys with no other arguments than saying "No!"
@Dakeru "Hard to take people serious who back up their arguments by comparing science and the moon landing to game development."
If you think that was the point I was making then you really need to have a re-think about it. You remind me of a guy I went to school with who, when listening into a conversation about boxing and someone saying that one of the boxers had a glass jaw, stated "no wonder he is gonna lose"...
Even more so when they ignore our arguments and compare us to cartoon donkeys with no other arguments than saying "No!"
Again, if all you read into my post was the literal content of the vids then all I can say is....ouch!
John Carmack was and still is a major "game" developer, but even he has never attempted anything in the MMORPG space.
Both of your examples occurred in the early age of gaming when anything was possible.
This is not that age and I don't believe a full featured MMORPG can be delivered "fast and cheap"
SC's story is nothing new, many a well funded MMORPG effort went down the drain due to poor financial management, not really relevant here.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I like the Naughty Dog and John Carmack as examples. Other then both have never attempted to make a MMO just as many great companies before them. Making a single or even just coop game within itself is not hard. Something a small team or even a single person can do. But when you get into a MMO you have taken what a small team can do and reached well beyond that. Even more so when you make claims like 48 hours to walk across the game world, destructible game world, massive pvp battles, ect.
Them are claims that even some of the best teams and people that originally put forth the first working examples of said features can not recreate in a full package that is fun by todays standards. So when a very small team comes out and says they are going to do them all in one package with a small budget then yes people are bring to question that.
How many people do you think $1mil or even $2mil is going to hire? Not nearly enough to pull off said stuff.
Just as an example SC has 100x the funding of CoE and they are trying to accoumplish almost the same thing in space. And they have brought on a lot of core people that know how to make this stuff work togeather and even they are having troubles doing it with a massive team of 400+ people. So why would a team of 10 to 30 people be able to pull it off without the talent?
I want CoE to exceed as much as the next person. It sounds like it could be a solid fun long term MMO and that is something very much lacking in this age. But I will wait the 18 months (lets just say 2 ) and see, cause I doubt at any point within the next 3 years we will get anything resembling what is being solid in this coolaid. Maybe I will be wrong and I will come on and happy admit it while playing the game. I hope that is the case and almost 9 thousand peoplewhere not just taken for $1 mill.
Join the revolutionary MMO!
As I said in a different post I think that Jeromy Walsh (isn't Caspian the guy from Narnia not Elyria?) should probably stop responding to posts with a complaint about having to answer the post. I get that he feels it's annoying but people are going to be a part of this thing so handling them is something he is gonna have to do or he will have to hire someone to respond for him.
It's not a stupid question to wonder if the thing can be completed in time, and while I get that it is insulting for someone to insinuate that you are incompetent or lying, it's all in how you take it. To assume the mantle of being true in your motives, it may be wise to do the same of those who would look to you for great things.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.