People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.
6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.
If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.
I don't think it makes any difference if you mindlessly kill computer controlled mobs or human controlled mobs.
I would prefer certain 'achievement based progressions', for example you gain level when your gear exceeds certain item level, or you have gain enough reputation for a faction, etc. A player could have a choice how to get to the goal. Using the first example, you could grind mobs and wish a lucky drop, or farm gold to buy improvement from auction house / other players, or you could run dungeons and hope the piece you need drops, or you could learn a professions and craft better gear.
Levels shouldn't automatically mean you become instantly stronger upon level up. It should tell you you're now ready to try further challenges, and give you an access to better skills, equipment, and new content. Gameplay mechanics where a player can grind same mobs over and over again with no upgrade whatsoever and still level up should be anchient history by now.
I think it's going to be hard to convince mmorpg gamers to ditch one of the core features of the genre. But i also imagine there can be some middle ground that could make both camps happy. I'd say GW2 has a good approach where a pvper can start pvping right at level 1.
Yes I definitely agree that its important to be able to compete without grinding.
People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.
6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.
If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.
I agree and a good example of this was the original Darkfall because people that mindlessly grinded mobs or AFK harvest like crazy were ahead... it was a ridiculous grind but honestly I didn't grind because I was familiar with the game and knew where to PVP where I could compete at a lower level. Instead of grinding I just kept looking for fights that I could win. Eventually I did catch up with the top dogs from just playing the game (and jesus patches, like destroyer build), and during this I found that people with more skills had less PVP experience.... so I could still win fights.
My point though is that there are some people who are not good at PVP... and they need to be able to win too sometimes. Being ahead of an opponent gives them an edge and makes it possible.
Also, its epic to be able to roll a group of people by yourself. Not everyone gets to experience that but because of the player level gap, at least some do.
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Im sry BUT I WANT MY GRIND BACK. Good were the days of EverQuest, Vanilla WoW and TBC, Lineage 2 C4-C5-C6. I dont want no more games Ala GW2 with no grind what so ever... Also plz bring the holy Trinity back. I loved to play support classes with CC and make the CC needed.
STOP doing so much instanced games we want OPEN WORLD with no invisible walls or instanced zones.
If the game is enjoyable then I dont see it as a grind....If gaining levels means getting new spells and talents that make playing more enjoyable then it is worth it......I look more at the journey in a MMO than the destination.
Im sry BUT I WANT MY GRIND BACK. Good were the days of EverQuest, Vanilla WoW and TBC, Lineage 2 C4-C5-C6. I dont want no more games Ala GW2 with no grind what so ever... Also plz bring the holy Trinity back. I loved to play support classes with CC and make the CC needed.
STOP doing so much instanced games we want OPEN WORLD... with grind
Agree but WoW started with lot of instanced stuff as a main focus, the open world felt secondary even considering the old days, not to mention i hate faction system, bring back a meaningful political system like Lineage.
I agree. In a game focused on realm vs realm pvp, enormous gear/level gaps with substantial grind times is an utterly horrid mechanic.
People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.
ESO was a classic example of this: every time I wanted to get a character ready for pvp I basically had to research the best grind spots and just move from grind spot to grind spot. Then with the champion point system I had to spend even more time just grinding, grinding, grinding. Time spent in pvp worked against me, because it usually meant significantly slowing down progression.
Even in a pve game excessive grind can be terrible, it is really one of the defining differences between single player rpgs and most mmos. I don't think just because a game is an mmo it necessarily has to have such boring grind mechanics, or that people who don't enjoy such grinding should "go play moba".
I was going to jump on the "heck no, MMORPGs need to have grinding" bandwagon until you brought up ESO.
I remembered I joined it believing it would follow DAOCs design (my fault, didn't do proper research) so I would level up to 50 and then join my friends in non stop RVR content with future progression tied to realm abilities earned from RVR.
Shortly after launch I realized level 50 was not the end. I would have to grind through the other two factions and then a new expansion to finally put the PVE grind behind me.
It appeared they were always going to be adding new PVE content that impacted RVR (now I know who was responsible for the TOA debacle) so at level 35 I walked away.
My friends stuck with it for awhile, but they all eventually burned out along the way through the Champion levels and left as well.
So yeah, if the major purpose of a MMORPG at end game is PVP it probably makes no sense to put it behind an arduous PVE grind wall unless you are the type who enjoys (and has the time) to push through it and gain the advantage over those who can't hack it. (I recall L2 at launch being one I couldn't do it on)
Now if you are creating more of a virtual world where PVP is part of the overall game design, but not the major theme to it then I'd favor a more progression (grind) approach that focused more on socialization and the journey.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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^^ Except that in Lineage the pvp has more purpose than in a game like GW2. In L1/L2(old days) it is related to hunting grounds-open bosses competition and that is why it can't be separated from pve.
People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.
6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.
If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.
I don't think it makes any difference if you mindlessly kill computer controlled mobs or human controlled mobs.
It matters in a RvR pvp focused mmo (which is what the OP mentioned) because the point of the game is meant to be fighting against other players. Also unlike mobs in most mmos, you can't "mindlessly" kill other players unless the class balance is totally out of wack, a large gear/level gap exists, or there is just something fundamentally wrong with the game.
If you sign up for an RvR-type pvp game and you have to spend 6 months grinding mobs and macro harvesting rocks while afk with your computer on all night before you can actually have any real fun fighting other players, I think it is fair to say that the game design is flawed. But amazingly that is exactly how some (most?) of these games play out.
I like dungeon running, I like raiding, I like endgame PvP but I'm sick and tired of the shallow level grinding that pretty much every game has. I'm not interested in hearing the same old leveling stories or killing humans and orcs that have been adjusted to fit me for level 5, 15, 25, 35, 45 or 55.
Some people would love endless leveling, others can't stand it. You can't make both groups happy.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Is how I choose to respond to such brash statements. I'd say the level grind is what appeals many to rpg's in the first place.
It's the ability to actually have a chance no matter how small it is of progressing and being equal if not better than another who may be in a higher social class.
That is what compels the average addict. Which make no mistakes mmorpg players are just that. I've heard less bitching about swag gross cheap dirt weed than I do about games here.
10 years of people watching here at mmorpg.com has given me the insight of...this is normal. That's because most here are addicts.
People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.
6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.
If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.
I don't think it makes any difference if you mindlessly kill computer controlled mobs or human controlled mobs.
It matters in a RvR pvp focused mmo (which is what the OP mentioned) because the point of the game is meant to be fighting against other players. Also unlike mobs in most mmos, you can't "mindlessly" kill other players unless the class balance is totally out of wack, a large gear/level gap exists, or there is just something fundamentally wrong with the game.
If you sign up for an RvR-type pvp game and you have to spend 6 months grinding mobs and macro harvesting rocks while afk with your computer on all night before you can actually have any real fun fighting other players, I think it is fair to say that the game design is flawed. But amazingly that is exactly how some (most?) of these games play out.
I kind of agree, but in my opinion the point of any mmo game should never be to fight other players. There should always be a greater goal behind, and to get there fighting other players could be required. So killing other players per se shouldn't give you anything. Mindless killing shouldn't be promoted by game design.
With the second paragraph i disagree completely. If you sign up for an RvR-type of game, AND there is PvE side with mobs, crafting, dungeons, factions, etc. it would be very bad design if one was able to completely ignore more than half the game and progress only be doing PvP. For that kind of players there are other genres, like MOBAs and FPSes.
There is a reason why games target specific target audiences. The best bet is to play the games that cater to your taste, instead of playing something that does not and then complaining.
There is no silver bullet. There is no game that satisfies every demographic. Choose wisely and have fun.
People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.
6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.
If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.
I don't think it makes any difference if you mindlessly kill computer controlled mobs or human controlled mobs.
It matters in a RvR pvp focused mmo (which is what the OP mentioned) because the point of the game is meant to be fighting against other players. Also unlike mobs in most mmos, you can't "mindlessly" kill other players unless the class balance is totally out of wack, a large gear/level gap exists, or there is just something fundamentally wrong with the game.
If you sign up for an RvR-type pvp game and you have to spend 6 months grinding mobs and macro harvesting rocks while afk with your computer on all night before you can actually have any real fun fighting other players, I think it is fair to say that the game design is flawed. But amazingly that is exactly how some (most?) of these games play out.
I kind of agree, but in my opinion the point of any mmo game should never be to fight other players. There should always be a greater goal behind, and to get there fighting other players could be required. So killing other players per se shouldn't give you anything. Mindless killing shouldn't be promoted by game design.
With the second paragraph i disagree completely. If you sign up for an RvR-type of game, AND there is PvE side with mobs, crafting, dungeons, factions, etc. it would be very bad design if one was able to completely ignore more than half the game and progress only be doing PvP. For that kind of players there are other genres, like MOBAs and FPSes.
You can disagree with it, but it just makes the pvp side of the game crap. Atm that is how most mmos are built: they are mainly pve with pvp tacked on, or they are gank-type games that center on grinding pve to become OP so you can dominate other players.
Hopefully CU and Crowfall will be focused on RvR/pvp so that the main avenue of progression is through the pvp (WAR seemed to be like this). GW2 is pretty good in that respect because you can just pvp and progress fairly quickly while having fun.
GW1 had one of the best progression system for a pvp based game. Easy to reach level cap (especially with the second expansion) + standardization of equipment stats.
Moreover the very idea of a virtual world based on characters with levels where most of them reach a level cap is silly.
Yes I know the argument: in fantasy worlds the characters are crazy different in the power they can wield like Frodo and Gandalf. Hence the silly idea that RPGs are defined by levels..... (truth: they are not)
However, if you really want to make a difference between Frodo and Gandalf, then you should allow only few characters to reach level cap while leaving most of the player base in the low level mud. In a game that is not really acceptable, therefore everybody is the world savior which is also stupid.
So what with progression? Well horizontal progression is the best. The vertical one is the problem. And how can it make sense to play a pvp game in which no-lifers win, not based on skill, but on time invested? I will never understand that...
=> "Eh look boy I p4wnd u with my +99999 sw0rd of 3litness!"
Vertical progression is acceptable as long as it does not prevent people to enjoy what the game is made for.
I am not sure how horizontal progression would perform in a PVE based game though. I guess it could work if the variety of actions possible would be wide enough and if combat would be just a small optional part of the game.
Im sry BUT I WANT MY GRIND BACK. Good were the days of EverQuest, Vanilla WoW and TBC, Lineage 2 C4-C5-C6. I dont want no more games Ala GW2 with no grind what so ever... Also plz bring the holy Trinity back. I loved to play support classes with CC and make the CC needed.
STOP doing so much instanced games we want OPEN WORLD with no invisible walls or instanced zones.
thats why i said....we need 2 separate server...pve (grind to da max) and pvp (insta fun) server...we have 2 completely different person playing mmorpg
People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.
6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.
If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.
I don't think it makes any difference if you mindlessly kill computer controlled mobs or human controlled mobs.
It matters in a RvR pvp focused mmo (which is what the OP mentioned) because the point of the game is meant to be fighting against other players. Also unlike mobs in most mmos, you can't "mindlessly" kill other players unless the class balance is totally out of wack, a large gear/level gap exists, or there is just something fundamentally wrong with the game.
If you sign up for an RvR-type pvp game and you have to spend 6 months grinding mobs and macro harvesting rocks while afk with your computer on all night before you can actually have any real fun fighting other players, I think it is fair to say that the game design is flawed. But amazingly that is exactly how some (most?) of these games play out.
Which is why I hope the new approach in CU works out, all the fun of RVR without the messy PVE.
I actually like PVE so this might not be the MMO for me, but I actually supported their KS because I wanted to see such a game made.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.
6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.
If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.
I don't think it makes any difference if you mindlessly kill computer controlled mobs or human controlled mobs.
It matters in a RvR pvp focused mmo (which is what the OP mentioned) because the point of the game is meant to be fighting against other players. Also unlike mobs in most mmos, you can't "mindlessly" kill other players unless the class balance is totally out of wack, a large gear/level gap exists, or there is just something fundamentally wrong with the game.
If you sign up for an RvR-type pvp game and you have to spend 6 months grinding mobs and macro harvesting rocks while afk with your computer on all night before you can actually have any real fun fighting other players, I think it is fair to say that the game design is flawed. But amazingly that is exactly how some (most?) of these games play out.
For RvR hopefully you can join in it right away.... if you can than I can see why 6 month grind would be necessary to keep people playing so you can keep PVP alive for as long as possible.... fact is people stop playing when they run out of grind a lot of the time, especially in a PVP when they lose. If they lose while they are still grinding at least you can dangle the carrot and make them think that maybe they will win if they keep grinding.... sad story but its true.... how else do we keep population? And also appeal to the person who sucks at PVP but needs to be able to win sometimes (by being ahead) to keep playing?
I kind of agree, but in my opinion the point of any mmo game should never be to fight other players. There should always be a greater goal behind, and to get there fighting other players could be required. So killing other players per se shouldn't give you anything. Mindless killing shouldn't be promoted by game design.
With the second paragraph i disagree completely. If you sign up for an RvR-type of game, AND there is PvE side with mobs, crafting, dungeons, factions, etc. it would be very bad design if one was able to completely ignore more than half the game and progress only be doing PvP. For that kind of players there are other genres, like MOBAs and FPSes.
Killing other players shouldn't give you anything?? But as a PVP player I would disagree.. this is not a FPS game or something like that (which you obviously already know).. this is an MMORPG... all about interacting with other players. A simple scoreboard from one match simply does not compare to having something in PVP to compete for... whether its taking their loot, increasing some PVP oriented score for bragging rights, or obtaining a hard to earn PVP title... PVP needs carrots too, just like PVE..... we all need something to work toward if you want us to play for years.
You can disagree with it, but it just makes the pvp side of the game crap. Atm that is how most mmos are built: they are mainly pve with pvp tacked on, or they are gank-type games that center on grinding pve to become OP so you can dominate other players.
Hopefully CU and Crowfall will be focused on RvR/pvp so that the main avenue of progression is through the pvp (WAR seemed to be like this). GW2 is pretty good in that respect because you can just pvp and progress fairly quickly while having fun.
So far nobody been able to pull of grinding from PVP only, besides Guild Wars but I would only play the original, because GW2 (this version will always be fail for me im almost positive) totally fails in comparison when it comes to PVP... In warhammer I saw people quit much faster than other MMORPGs..
CU and Crowfall have so much further to go... good to keep an eye on but don't give it any hype.... it usually results in disappointment. It wont be easy to replace games that we have lost. They really need to deliver something good to keep my attention and I doubt they will.
GW1 had one of the best progression system for a pvp based game. Easy to reach level cap (especially with the second expansion) + standardization of equipment stats.
Vertical progression is acceptable as long as it does not prevent people to enjoy what the game is made for.
Yeah the original Guild Wars was a complete success when it comes to PVP!!!
They didn't need a 'level' or 'quest' grind and it was possible to unlock everything you needed from PVP for PVP.... only game that I can say that for but the only reason this happened I think is because they had hundreds of skills/spells and you could only take 8 into combat . .... GW2 doesn't have nearly as many spells/skills and doesn't have random arena, hall of heroes, etc. etc. etc. totally stupid and boring in comparison... they tried to cater to too many people in my opinion.. another attempt to appeal to more people just like WoW and their PVP will never live up to the original game.
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I would say "level grind" only turns off players who want a more skill based game. Basically jump in and pvp.
People who don't want to build a character. Role play games have character building (usually) so it's just an issue for a certain segment of the player base.
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I think in early MMOs the fact that only certain people would put up with the grind is exactly what those people wanted. It basically phased out the people who didn't want to spend a lot of time playing a game and were more centered on real life.
Most people are like this and do not want to play for long periods of time. I don't even want to do it anymore because it can cause health issues. I don't consider today's MMO grind to be that time consuming. I guess it still annoys people, but it's nothing compared to the duration it took to acquire a skill up or level up in early MMOs.
I love levels. RPGs need progression. It is all grind to me but grind isn't a negative.
Hey people who don't like levels, don't do anything with games that have levels. Don't play them, don't talk about them on forums, just focus on games that you love all the features within.
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You don't have to have vast vertical progression for a game to be a RPG. Its a shame SWG wasn't more polished and playable it may have changed the course of how MMORPGs are viewed. Even if it was just a side track.
The grind is a boring mechanism that players are just comfortable with. That's why there is a force you to grind but its super easy contradiction. People know that grinding out quest is generally boring task that you do for reward only. If given the choice how many players would skip it?
Grinding out NPCs is boring task. Even crafting is generally a boring task. And we wonder why the genre is niche. Most people don't get why its fun to grind out boring gameplay to reach so goal of actually playing the game to only grind some more.
Questing should be enjoyable experience that you do on you're time not a funnel of the grind. Mobs should be killed for purpose of resources, items, passage or whatever you need or want. When you use these mechanics to grind it becomes boring.
Comments
I would prefer certain 'achievement based progressions', for example you gain level when your gear exceeds certain item level, or you have gain enough reputation for a faction, etc. A player could have a choice how to get to the goal. Using the first example, you could grind mobs and wish a lucky drop, or farm gold to buy improvement from auction house / other players, or you could run dungeons and hope the piece you need drops, or you could learn a professions and craft better gear.
Levels shouldn't automatically mean you become instantly stronger upon level up. It should tell you you're now ready to try further challenges, and give you an access to better skills, equipment, and new content. Gameplay mechanics where a player can grind same mobs over and over again with no upgrade whatsoever and still level up should be anchient history by now.
I agree and a good example of this was the original Darkfall because people that mindlessly grinded mobs or AFK harvest like crazy were ahead... it was a ridiculous grind but honestly I didn't grind because I was familiar with the game and knew where to PVP where I could compete at a lower level. Instead of grinding I just kept looking for fights that I could win. Eventually I did catch up with the top dogs from just playing the game (and jesus patches, like destroyer build), and during this I found that people with more skills had less PVP experience.... so I could still win fights.
My point though is that there are some people who are not good at PVP... and they need to be able to win too sometimes. Being ahead of an opponent gives them an edge and makes it possible.
Also, its epic to be able to roll a group of people by yourself. Not everyone gets to experience that but because of the player level gap, at least some do.
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STOP doing so much instanced games we want OPEN WORLD with no invisible walls or instanced zones.
I remembered I joined it believing it would follow DAOCs design (my fault, didn't do proper research) so I would level up to 50 and then join my friends in non stop RVR content with future progression tied to realm abilities earned from RVR.
Shortly after launch I realized level 50 was not the end. I would have to grind through the other two factions and then a new expansion to finally put the PVE grind behind me.
It appeared they were always going to be adding new PVE content that impacted RVR (now I know who was responsible for the TOA debacle) so at level 35 I walked away.
My friends stuck with it for awhile, but they all eventually burned out along the way through the Champion levels and left as well.
So yeah, if the major purpose of a MMORPG at end game is PVP it probably makes no sense to put it behind an arduous PVE grind wall unless you are the type who enjoys (and has the time) to push through it and gain the advantage over those who can't hack it. (I recall L2 at launch being one I couldn't do it on)
Now if you are creating more of a virtual world where PVP is part of the overall game design, but not the major theme to it then I'd favor a more progression (grind) approach that focused more on socialization and the journey.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Except that in Lineage the pvp has more purpose than in a game like GW2. In L1/L2(old days) it is related to hunting grounds-open bosses competition and that is why it can't be separated from pve.
If you sign up for an RvR-type pvp game and you have to spend 6 months grinding mobs and macro harvesting rocks while afk with your computer on all night before you can actually have any real fun fighting other players, I think it is fair to say that the game design is flawed. But amazingly that is exactly how some (most?) of these games play out.
Some people would love endless leveling, others can't stand it. You can't make both groups happy.
There is no we here. There is no %#@ing we.
Is how I choose to respond to such brash statements.
I'd say the level grind is what appeals many to rpg's in the first place.
It's the ability to actually have a chance no matter how small it is of progressing and being equal if not better than another who may be in a higher social class.
That is what compels the average addict. Which make no mistakes mmorpg players are just that.
I've heard less bitching about swag gross cheap dirt weed than I do about games here.
10 years of people watching here at mmorpg.com has given me the insight of...this is normal. That's because most here are addicts.
But the OP has a point. If the tables were turned, I would not want to be required to PvP for months before I was allowed to PvE.
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With the second paragraph i disagree completely. If you sign up for an RvR-type of game, AND there is PvE side with mobs, crafting, dungeons, factions, etc. it would be very bad design if one was able to completely ignore more than half the game and progress only be doing PvP. For that kind of players there are other genres, like MOBAs and FPSes.
The best bet is to play the games that cater to your taste, instead of playing something that does not and then complaining.
There is no silver bullet. There is no game that satisfies every demographic.
Choose wisely and have fun.
Hopefully CU and Crowfall will be focused on RvR/pvp so that the main avenue of progression is through the pvp (WAR seemed to be like this). GW2 is pretty good in that respect because you can just pvp and progress fairly quickly while having fun.
Moreover the very idea of a virtual world based on characters with levels where most of them reach a level cap is silly.
Yes I know the argument: in fantasy worlds the characters are crazy different in the power they can wield like Frodo and Gandalf. Hence the silly idea that RPGs are defined by levels..... (truth: they are not)
However, if you really want to make a difference between Frodo and Gandalf, then you should allow only few characters to reach level cap while leaving most of the player base in the low level mud. In a game that is not really acceptable, therefore everybody is the world savior which is also stupid.
So what with progression? Well horizontal progression is the best. The vertical one is the problem. And how can it make sense to play a pvp game in which no-lifers win, not based on skill, but on time invested? I will never understand that...
=> "Eh look boy I p4wnd u with my +99999 sw0rd of 3litness!"
Vertical progression is acceptable as long as it does not prevent people to enjoy what the game is made for.
I am not sure how horizontal progression would perform in a PVE based game though. I guess it could work if the variety of actions possible would be wide enough and if combat would be just a small optional part of the game.
I actually like PVE so this might not be the MMO for me, but I actually supported their KS because I wanted to see such a game made.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Killing other players shouldn't give you anything?? But as a PVP player I would disagree.. this is not a FPS game or something like that (which you obviously already know).. this is an MMORPG... all about interacting with other players. A simple scoreboard from one match simply does not compare to having something in PVP to compete for... whether its taking their loot, increasing some PVP oriented score for bragging rights, or obtaining a hard to earn PVP title... PVP needs carrots too, just like PVE..... we all need something to work toward if you want us to play for years.
So far nobody been able to pull of grinding from PVP only, besides Guild Wars but I would only play the original, because GW2 (this version will always be fail for me im almost positive) totally fails in comparison when it comes to PVP... In warhammer I saw people quit much faster than other MMORPGs..
CU and Crowfall have so much further to go... good to keep an eye on but don't give it any hype.... it usually results in disappointment. It wont be easy to replace games that we have lost. They really need to deliver something good to keep my attention and I doubt they will.
Yeah the original Guild Wars was a complete success when it comes to PVP!!!
They didn't need a 'level' or 'quest' grind and it was possible to unlock everything you needed from PVP for PVP.... only game that I can say that for but the only reason this happened I think is because they had hundreds of skills/spells and you could only take 8 into combat . .... GW2 doesn't have nearly as many spells/skills and doesn't have random arena, hall of heroes, etc. etc. etc. totally stupid and boring in comparison... they tried to cater to too many people in my opinion.. another attempt to appeal to more people just like WoW and their PVP will never live up to the original game.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
People who don't want to build a character. Role play games have character building (usually) so it's just an issue for a certain segment of the player base.
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Most people are like this and do not want to play for long periods of time. I don't even want to do it anymore because it can cause health issues. I don't consider today's MMO grind to be that time consuming. I guess it still annoys people, but it's nothing compared to the duration it took to acquire a skill up or level up in early MMOs.
I love levels. RPGs need progression. It is all grind to me but grind isn't a negative.
Hey people who don't like levels, don't do anything with games that have levels. Don't play them, don't talk about them on forums, just focus on games that you love all the features within.
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The grind is a boring mechanism that players are just comfortable with. That's why there is a force you to grind but its super easy contradiction. People know that grinding out quest is generally boring task that you do for reward only. If given the choice how many players would skip it?
Grinding out NPCs is boring task. Even crafting is generally a boring task. And we wonder why the genre is niche. Most people don't get why its fun to grind out boring gameplay to reach so goal of actually playing the game to only grind some more.
Questing should be enjoyable experience that you do on you're time not a funnel of the grind. Mobs should be killed for purpose of resources, items, passage or whatever you need or want. When you use these mechanics to grind it becomes boring.