I love levels. RPGs need progression. It is all grind to me but grind isn't a negative.
Hey people who don't like levels, don't do anything with games that have levels. Don't play them, don't talk about them on forums, just focus on games that you love all the features within.
MMORPG don't have to have levels. I think the fact that the genre is so uniformed is what the most annoying thing. If MMORPG were made without level and focused on more diveristy and the virtual society.
Really levels are just a crutch. Its easy to push out a small world with a funnel of themed task based on an achievement rewards system than to make each aspect of the game fun and deal with player interactions. If players will pick 5 mushrooms in hopes of being elite later why not?
I'm not sure when exactly the whole idea of turning RPGS into action games started to happen, but it needs to stop. Thankfully there are still MUDs around that get it right.
I'm not sure when exactly the whole idea of turning RPGS into action games started to happen, but it needs to stop. Thankfully there are still MUDs around that get it right.
Combat has nothing to do with progression types. We already have action combat in leveling games.
MMORPG give you the opportunity to have virtual societies, politics and other player interaction mechanics. Those mechanics are less controlable and require different tool sets.
The level grind is what pushed us to the solo action games because the grind is basic and boring. Nobody wants to wait around on other players to complete their boring task. Action combat is there to make up for the most basic game play achievers are accepting.
WHat games don't let you PVP right away in this day and age is my question? Just about all of them seem to have a bolstering system, or low level tiers to take part in from my experience. OR at the very least BG's with bolstering.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I agree. In a game focused on realm vs realm pvp, enormous gear/level gaps with substantial grind times is an utterly horrid mechanic.
People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.
ESO was a classic example of this: every time I wanted to get a character ready for pvp I basically had to research the best grind spots and just move from grind spot to grind spot. Then with the champion point system I had to spend even more time just grinding, grinding, grinding. Time spent in pvp worked against me, because it usually meant significantly slowing down progression.
Even in a pve game excessive grind can be terrible, it is really one of the defining differences between single player rpgs and most mmos. I don't think just because a game is an mmo it necessarily has to have such boring grind mechanics, or that people who don't enjoy such grinding should "go play moba".
I was going to jump on the "heck no, MMORPGs need to have grinding" bandwagon until you brought up ESO.
I remembered I joined it believing it would follow DAOCs design (my fault, didn't do proper research) so I would level up to 50 and then join my friends in non stop RVR content with future progression tied to realm abilities earned from RVR.
Shortly after launch I realized level 50 was not the end. I would have to grind through the other two factions and then a new expansion to finally put the PVE grind behind me.
It appeared they were always going to be adding new PVE content that impacted RVR (now I know who was responsible for the TOA debacle) so at level 35 I walked away.
My friends stuck with it for awhile, but they all eventually burned out along the way through the Champion levels and left as well.
So yeah, if the major purpose of a MMORPG at end game is PVP it probably makes no sense to put it behind an arduous PVE grind wall unless you are the type who enjoys (and has the time) to push through it and gain the advantage over those who can't hack it. (I recall L2 at launch being one I couldn't do it on)
Now if you are creating more of a virtual world where PVP is part of the overall game design, but not the major theme to it then I'd favor a more progression (grind) approach that focused more on socialization and the journey.
ESO does have lower tier campaigns to join though. Since I've been back that's basically all I do now. Which reminds me I need to grind those last 10 levels.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In a multi-player game it makes playing with the people you want to play with a massive coordination headache. I play MMO's for the group content. My luck with randoms has been less pleasant than I'd prefer. The shorter the path between character creation and end-game the happier I will be.
I do love a good story. If that's what I'm in the mood for I'll fire up a single-player RPG. But those only last so long and lack the social interaction I get from MMO content.
Levels themselves aren't my issue. Being locked out of content based on levels is, however. I think that if you get 1000 level 10s together, they should be able to take on whatever they can survive.
Using WoW as an example, the level wasn't always as much of a hard start for end-game as it is today. Once upon a time, healers could start running some end game raids (LBRS, BRD) at 55, or even 52 in some cases. Nowadays, there's this "level X required to enter" thing. Don't misunderstand me here. Max level was always a goal in WoW, as it is in pretty much every MMO with levels, but the journey once mattered.
The journey is important. It teaches, creates attachment, promotes friendships, encourages social behavior, and makes a world feel alive. Without it, it's just a bunch of people hanging out in hubs waiting on a queue. That's not what MMOs are supposed to be. It doesn't have to be levels either. It can easily be a skill point system like SWG, but tacking on an arbitrary leveling system that is little more than a tutorial is, I think, detrimental in the long run.
I would say "level grind" only turns off players who want a more skill based game. Basically jump in and pvp.
People who don't want to build a character. Role play games have character building (usually) so it's just an issue for a certain segment of the player base.
I disagree. I loved Dynamic Events in Rift and Guild Wars 2.
Problem was the better PvE Dynamic Events were in higher level zones, such as the dragons. So I need to grind levels if I want to enjoy that content to the fullest since 90% of the Meta Events are levelgated..
People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.
6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.
If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.
I don't think it makes any difference if you mindlessly kill computer controlled mobs or human controlled mobs.
It matters in a RvR pvp focused mmo (which is what the OP mentioned) because the point of the game is meant to be fighting against other players. Also unlike mobs in most mmos, you can't "mindlessly" kill other players unless the class balance is totally out of wack, a large gear/level gap exists, or there is just something fundamentally wrong with the game.
If you sign up for an RvR-type pvp game and you have to spend 6 months grinding mobs and macro harvesting rocks while afk with your computer on all night before you can actually have any real fun fighting other players, I think it is fair to say that the game design is flawed. But amazingly that is exactly how some (most?) of these games play out.
Which is why I hope the new approach in CU works out, all the fun of RVR without the messy PVE.
I actually like PVE so this might not be the MMO for me, but I actually supported their KS because I wanted to see such a game made.
We shall see how they pull it off .......... or not.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I would say "level grind" only turns off players who want a more skill based game. Basically jump in and pvp.
People who don't want to build a character. Role play games have character building (usually) so it's just an issue for a certain segment of the player base.
I disagree. I loved Dynamic Events in Rift and Guild Wars 2.
Problem was the better PvE Dynamic Events were in higher level zones, such as the dragons. So I need to grind levels if I want to enjoy that content to the fullest since 90% of the Meta Events are levelgated..
How about DE in city of heroes like the Rikti Invasion?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I would say "level grind" only turns off players who want a more skill based game. Basically jump in and pvp.
People who don't want to build a character. Role play games have character building (usually) so it's just an issue for a certain segment of the player base.
I disagree. I loved Dynamic Events in Rift and Guild Wars 2.
Problem was the better PvE Dynamic Events were in higher level zones, such as the dragons. So I need to grind levels if I want to enjoy that content to the fullest since 90% of the Meta Events are levelgated..
Wow.. you are going to complain about the grind in Rift and Guild Wars 2?? hahaha are you joking?
You want an instant warp to the end game PVE content??
The problem is, if they give you what you want, I think you are more likely to quiit the game faster by becoming bored with the dragons.. at least with how it is now, you cannot instantly get there so you end up playing the game longer which to be honest is what we need in an MMORPG.
What you are suggesting would probably mean that games would die even faster than they already do right after launch, because people would have that instant gratification, get sick of it, then move on... I'd like to think they can keep you busy for at least 3 months but c'mon what we really want is for you to play it for years potentially!
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I disagree with OP. Actually I lose interest in MMORPGS when I reach the level cap in most cases.
That means you will just grind and then leave the game having no fun at any point.
hahaha he is saying he enjoys the grind and that is what's fun for him, and I agree, grinding is fun, hitting a artificial cap is not. Infinite levels but with minimal increase and gap between lv 1 and 1000 where player-crafted gear and skill-usage matters, I use Ultima Online as my ultimate reference, it had most features and systems in vanilla that I would want in a future game.
We're probably using the word "grind" too liberally here. As I'm sure we all agree, one man's grind is another man's meaningful activity.
Personally, I despise grind just like I despise manual labor - but I absolutely adore well-paced progression.
Problem is that most developers have failed to deliver well-paced progression beyond the level cap, which is really a game design issue. As in, most developers suck as game designers.
Sorry OP, but i don't agree. I like me some level grinding. The thing is that in most MMORPGs it's done wrong, you do repeatable quests to kill 10 pigs or bandits. No one wants that. Neverwinter leveling is great it every quest has interesting story and different things you need to do for example. I enjoyed leveling there. That was just an example ofcourse. One of the aspects in MMORPG that i enjoy is progression. If you can feel better faster stronger after each level and the leveling process is varied and fun i will enjoy leveling even if i have to level endless. Like for example Skyforge is endless leveling and i managed to grind level to 100 000 prestige, that's few months of alot of hours gameplay and the game doesn't really offer the best leveling expirience, but you could definetly feel getting stronger and stronger, the progression kept me going.
I disagree with OP. Actually I lose interest in MMORPGS when I reach the level cap in most cases.
Pretty much how it went for me in Rift, TERA, SWTOR, and Aion one max level character and quit because there was nothing really at end game besides gear grind raiding which I gave up on after WOW.
I find unless the end game involves territitory control and PVP with both purpose and consequences it doesn't interest me.
ESO is probably the only modern MMORPG I might have enjoyed the PVP in however I wasn't willing to solo grind through all of the PVE content to get there. (if the title had done a better job with group based leveling things might have turned out differently.)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I do not agree with OP in the least. One of my first MMO's was Lineage 2 and I managed to grind my way to max level in that game several times. That was the grind from hell and it got much worse at later levels. I have yet to see a game come close to matching that level of grind. Not that I want too. However, I do feel that a progression system is necessary.
If you don't have some way of developing your character, of charting your progression you will get bored. Humans need to have that "carrot" in front of them, I would say especially people that play MMO's. There has to be an incentive to progress and mile markers to indicate how far you have come. Gaining strength through a vertical progression system is one of the best way's to do that. Look at the corporate world, very people start as the CEO, look at the military, you don't star your military career as the Commandant, there is progression, or levels. In the real world it revolves around money and responsibility, and perhaps privilege, in games it is represented by power, flashier equipment, bigger swords and the ability to go places people that are not your level can't go.
TL/DR: It only makes sense to have a system of progression.
I am now playing L2 Classic where the exp required to level up has been significantly increased comparing to original early chronicles
Not sure what this has to do with anything.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Grind of any sort is offputting, but what is considered grind will differ from player to player.
To those interested in endgame activities (dungeons, raids, pvp) then sure, an excessive level grind might put them off. It was certainly a factor in me deciding not to play TESO - I really liked the idea of RvRvR in TESO but I didn't like the combat system so the excessive level grind put me off. I considered it a grind because the pve wasn't enjoyable and the time to cap was long, so I'd essentially be forced to do something I didn't enjoy for a couple of months before reaching the activity I did want to do.
To others, leveling is not a grind and this won't put them off. I have plenty of friends who couldn't care less about challenging content or pvp, they simply enjoy the storylines, enjoy unlocking new skills, enjoy earning near gear and enjoy doing so whilst being able to chat with friends and occasionally group up. For them, leveling up IS the game, so removing it would put them off.
Given that this sort of player (the "casuals") are by far the most populous and therefore the most profitable, I can't see leveling being taken away.
The only thing I can see changing is a revamp of the way leveling / questing is done. Things like difficulty sliders, scaling content (so it scales to level / group size), less linear questing, more options to level up (quests, mob grinding, pvp, dungeon farming etc) would all put more control into the players hands, allowing them to find the most enjoyable method of leveling up for them, rather than being forced down a single route.
For example, I hate questing. I find the storylines to be generally generic and boring, the combat is usually too easy, plus I spend half my time running back and forth to questgivers. I would much rather find some friends, group up and go grind mobs for a few hours, or group up and do some instanced pvp or dungeon farming. Some games offer some of this (I did a lot of leveling in swtor through farming battlegrounds) but grinding quests seems to be the quickest way in most games.
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Comments
Really levels are just a crutch. Its easy to push out a small world with a funnel of themed task based on an achievement rewards system than to make each aspect of the game fun and deal with player interactions. If players will pick 5 mushrooms in hopes of being elite later why not?
I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.
Current: Dragonrealms
MMORPG give you the opportunity to have virtual societies, politics and other player interaction mechanics. Those mechanics are less controlable and require different tool sets.
The level grind is what pushed us to the solo action games because the grind is basic and boring. Nobody wants to wait around on other players to complete their boring task. Action combat is there to make up for the most basic game play achievers are accepting.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In a multi-player game it makes playing with the people you want to play with a massive coordination headache. I play MMO's for the group content. My luck with randoms has been less pleasant than I'd prefer. The shorter the path between character creation and end-game the happier I will be.
I do love a good story. If that's what I'm in the mood for I'll fire up a single-player RPG. But those only last so long and lack the social interaction I get from MMO content.
Using WoW as an example, the level wasn't always as much of a hard start for end-game as it is today. Once upon a time, healers could start running some end game raids (LBRS, BRD) at 55, or even 52 in some cases. Nowadays, there's this "level X required to enter" thing. Don't misunderstand me here. Max level was always a goal in WoW, as it is in pretty much every MMO with levels, but the journey once mattered.
The journey is important. It teaches, creates attachment, promotes friendships, encourages social behavior, and makes a world feel alive. Without it, it's just a bunch of people hanging out in hubs waiting on a queue. That's not what MMOs are supposed to be. It doesn't have to be levels either. It can easily be a skill point system like SWG, but tacking on an arbitrary leveling system that is little more than a tutorial is, I think, detrimental in the long run.
I loved Dynamic Events in Rift and Guild Wars 2.
Problem was the better PvE Dynamic Events were in higher level zones, such as the dragons. So I need to grind levels if I want to enjoy that content to the fullest since 90% of the Meta Events are levelgated..
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
We shall see how they pull it off .......... or not.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
How about DE in city of heroes like the Rikti Invasion?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Actually I lose interest in MMORPGS when I reach the level cap in most cases.
You want an instant warp to the end game PVE content??
The problem is, if they give you what you want, I think you are more likely to quiit the game faster by becoming bored with the dragons.. at least with how it is now, you cannot instantly get there so you end up playing the game longer which to be honest is what we need in an MMORPG.
What you are suggesting would probably mean that games would die even faster than they already do right after launch, because people would have that instant gratification, get sick of it, then move on... I'd like to think they can keep you busy for at least 3 months but c'mon what we really want is for you to play it for years potentially!
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
hahaha he is saying he enjoys the grind and that is what's fun for him, and I agree, grinding is fun, hitting a artificial cap is not. Infinite levels but with minimal increase and gap between lv 1 and 1000 where player-crafted gear and skill-usage matters, I use Ultima Online as my ultimate reference, it had most features and systems in vanilla that I would want in a future game.
Herald of innovation, Vanquisher of the old! - Awake a few hours almost everyday!
Personally, I despise grind just like I despise manual labor - but I absolutely adore well-paced progression.
Problem is that most developers have failed to deliver well-paced progression beyond the level cap, which is really a game design issue. As in, most developers suck as game designers.
You're just playing a poorly designed game, OP, that's all.
One of the aspects in MMORPG that i enjoy is progression. If you can feel better faster stronger after each level and the leveling process is varied and fun i will enjoy leveling even if i have to level endless. Like for example Skyforge is endless leveling and i managed to grind level to 100 000 prestige, that's few months of alot of hours gameplay and the game doesn't really offer the best leveling expirience, but you could definetly feel getting stronger and stronger, the progression kept me going.
i rather short level caps. then to grinder dev should create something like achievement. kill over 9k rats. there u go. grind all u want
upon finished it there is another 9k tier 2. its has 9k tiers
once u complete every tier u get a tittle. rat will insta die once u get tier 9k
I find unless the end game involves territitory control and PVP with both purpose and consequences it doesn't interest me.
ESO is probably the only modern MMORPG I might have enjoyed the PVP in however I wasn't willing to solo grind through all of the PVE content to get there. (if the title had done a better job with group based leveling things might have turned out differently.)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
To those interested in endgame activities (dungeons, raids, pvp) then sure, an excessive level grind might put them off. It was certainly a factor in me deciding not to play TESO - I really liked the idea of RvRvR in TESO but I didn't like the combat system so the excessive level grind put me off. I considered it a grind because the pve wasn't enjoyable and the time to cap was long, so I'd essentially be forced to do something I didn't enjoy for a couple of months before reaching the activity I did want to do.
To others, leveling is not a grind and this won't put them off. I have plenty of friends who couldn't care less about challenging content or pvp, they simply enjoy the storylines, enjoy unlocking new skills, enjoy earning near gear and enjoy doing so whilst being able to chat with friends and occasionally group up. For them, leveling up IS the game, so removing it would put them off.
Given that this sort of player (the "casuals") are by far the most populous and therefore the most profitable, I can't see leveling being taken away.
The only thing I can see changing is a revamp of the way leveling / questing is done. Things like difficulty sliders, scaling content (so it scales to level / group size), less linear questing, more options to level up (quests, mob grinding, pvp, dungeon farming etc) would all put more control into the players hands, allowing them to find the most enjoyable method of leveling up for them, rather than being forced down a single route.
For example, I hate questing. I find the storylines to be generally generic and boring, the combat is usually too easy, plus I spend half my time running back and forth to questgivers. I would much rather find some friends, group up and go grind mobs for a few hours, or group up and do some instanced pvp or dungeon farming. Some games offer some of this (I did a lot of leveling in swtor through farming battlegrounds) but grinding quests seems to be the quickest way in most games.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.