Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Isn't exploration it's own reward? Why would I need a little ding or red fozzle reward for finding someplace?
Of course it is. But ya don't need to be 'guided' to it by waypoints and map markers or lead into it by contented laid out to guide you to the area. Some 'Ding' or reward for finding notable things on your own isn't a bad thing IMO.
You are of course right, but I just wish MMOs in general put more focus on using the right skill at the right situation instead of how to most effectively rotate your skills. Timing is something all MMOs could put more focus on since once you learn the right rotation to maximize your DPs (or tanking/healing) you can put far less effort in any fight.
If the games were more focused on timing you would need to constantly pay attention to the fight and react (or outsmart) your opponent, no matter if you PvE or PvP.
But it been like it is in almost all MMOs since Meridian 59 so it is a common problem and not just something Wow done wrong.
Yeah I'd agree that MMORPGs (and games in general) need more focus on using the right skill for the right situation, but hopefully you're not implying that WOW's rotations fail to do that. Rotations (and the environmental/boss/player factors that cause them to vary) are literally a list of right skills for right situations.
Any game, once mastered, requires less effort to perform. That's the nature of learning: with practice things which previously needed our conscious attention (more effort) are eventually done without it (less effort). Depth is simply a measure of how difficulty it is to achieve that skill mastery.
Timing is a tricky word to throw around, since it calls to mind action combat. RPGs largely target a demographic uninterested in a significant twitch element. But yes, if you just mean timing by timing then chess and MMORPGs already involve that. (Is now the right turn (the right time) to move that knight into the center of the board? Is now the right time to use Hand of Guldan or to pop my cooldown(s)?)
If rotations are depth than why would they need to be broken to validate the claim? Seems like you're saying they aren't deep at the same time as saying they are the end all of depth and combat.
Are rotations even a developer intended thing or just something players do to max DPS? Meaning any game with a ton of powers + static NPC will have rotations best for a build based on timers and math. I know in SWG which also has toolbar full of crap also has those long rotation chains. Some more convoluted than others.
It is as if they don't understand what 'artistic merit' would mean. It often seem as if they aren't even trying to make a good game.
Superficial crap in every game it seems. Populistic drivel.
Devs please, PLEASE!
Try end up having a game with artistic merit!
Their just 30 day playgrounds built with some wonderment for the players to stay interested for awhile, and maybe spend some money in the cash shop on that new blue dress before it turns into Play-to-win.
They even have the timing down to a science on when players should start spending money without making themselves look bad.....It's a fine line and they have it exact.
Remember, Study show:
" players play everything as long as they advertise "
There are two main reasons why MMO's (not in every MMO) have faster combat encounters and not the more difficult and longer challenges like in Dark Souls.
1. Many MMO's design is all about character progression and for some (imo outdated and stupid) reason, there is this idea that a character is not complete before it reaches max lvl.During a large part of the levelling journey, combat feels very bland because of this. Especially in tab based MMO's.
2. The combat system in many MMO's is just too simple and repetitive to remain fun in longer trash fights. In most cases it doesn't leave many options for tactics, beyond pulling more mobs then wanted. Levelling is often done solo, for which the trinity system is a bad design too. If your class can't spec dps, you would have a snorefest in long lasting fights.
The moment you leave levels and vertical gear prog. out of a MMO, or make them less meaningless, people tend to get confused and start to rage about how it is not even a MMO or asking what is the point to play? There is a group of players that just craves the quest checklist , achievements, arbitrary levels and vertical gear progression. Especially this lvl and gear progression turns most of the content into trash in terms of difficulty. This design always ends up having very easy combat and group content with easy to write guides.
TL;DR OP doesn't seem to realise that there is a large group of players really not interested in Dark Souls kind of combat.
If rotations are depth than why would they need to be broken to validate the claim? Seems like you're saying they aren't deep at the same time as saying they are the end all of depth and combat.
Are rotations even a developer intended thing or just something players do to max DPS? Meaning any game with a ton of powers + static NPC will have rotations best for a build based on timers and math. I know in SWG which also has toolbar full of crap also has those long rotation chains. Some more convoluted than others.
Broken? What do you mean?
First you need to understand that games are a series of decisions, so a game always has some kind of rotation.
Then you need to understand is it's all a rotation. The rotation isn't "broken" when the boss puts fire under your feet. If the fire is damaging enough, your rotation includes moving out of the fire. This doesn't "break" your rotation; moving out of the fire is part of the rotation.
So the rotations I linked are only the beginning of what you need to know to perform an optimal rotation. In straight tank-and-spank fights (which are quite rare) it's the rotation you'll use, but most fights (in WOW) will vary that standard rotation.
So if I casually said that the standard rotation was "broken" at some point earlier in the thread, it's only because calling it all a rotation without going into the detailed analysis above would very likely not be understood by the people I was responding to. For the sake of brevity, it's easier to say the standard rotation is broken when the boss puts fire at my feet. But the truth is moving out of the fire is simply one more conditional factor to the rotation.
Are rotations intentional? It depends on the game. It's extremely rare for a developer to accidentally achieve deep gameplay. It can happen, but for the most part if a game's rotations are shallow it's because rotations weren't considered and if a game's rotations are deep it's because the developer put effort into making them deep.
Every game has rotations, so the point about the game with many skills and static NPCs is no exception. However without proper balancing the game with many skills can easily leave one skill overpowered at which point your rotation will be to do little more than spam that best skill. But yes, the best rotation is always the result of timers, math, and other factors.
Lastly, I should note that "move out of the fire" is another example of oversimplifying for the sake of brevity. Because depending on the damage of the fire, the capability of your healer(s), and the strength of your defensive cooldown abilities, you can potentially stand in the fire and continue DPSing. So even in that example there is a much deeper set of conditional logic to the optimal rotation.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If rotations are depth than why would they need to be broken to validate the claim? Seems like you're saying they aren't deep at the same time as saying they are the end all of depth and combat.
Are rotations even a developer intended thing or just something players do to max DPS? Meaning any game with a ton of powers + static NPC will have rotations best for a build based on timers and math. I know in SWG which also has toolbar full of crap also has those long rotation chains. Some more convoluted than others.
Broken? What do you mean?
First you need to understand that games are a series of decisions, and those decisions are always a rotation.
Then you need to understand is it's all a rotation. The rotation isn't "broken" when the boss puts fire under your feet. If the fire is damaging enough, your rotation includes moving out of the fire. This doesn't "break" your rotation; moving out of the fire is part of the rotation.
There are two main reasons why MMO's (not in every MMO) have faster combat encounters and not the more difficult and longer challenges like in Dark Souls.
1. Many MMO's design is all about character progression and for some (imo outdated and stupid) reason, there is this idea that a character is not complete before it reaches max lvl.During a large part of the levelling journey, combat feels very bland because of this. Especially in tab based MMO's.
2. The combat system in many MMO's is just too simple and repetitive to remain fun in longer trash fights. In most cases it doesn't leave many options for tactics, beyond pulling more mobs then wanted. Levelling is often done solo, for which the trinity system is a bad design too. If your class can't spec dps, you would have a snorefest in long lasting fights.
The moment you leave levels and vertical gear prog. out of a MMO, or make them less meaningless, people tend to get confused and start to rage about how it is not even a MMO or asking what is the point to play? There is a group of players that just craves the quest checklist , achievements, arbitrary levels and vertical gear progression. Especially this lvl and gear progression turns most of the content into trash in terms of difficulty. This design always ends up having very easy combat and group content with easy to write guides.
TL;DR OP doesn't seem to realise that there is a large group of players really not interested in Dark Souls kind of combat.
Dark Souls was only used in the comparison for the purpose saying combat and preparing for combat is the number one essential for almost all video games. Obliviously you have other games like Sims and such, but mmos are based around combat.
Dark Souls is based on very hard combat, I'm definitely not saying mmos should be as such. But take combat away from Dark Souls and you have a weak shell, of basically nothing.....This is the reason I used Dark Souls ( just an extreme example ). If you take away the medium combat of an mmo, again you have a weak shell.
As for #1 - If developers are doing their job on a good quality mmo level progression should be fun and a journey. If anyone has a better idea, I'm sure everyone would like to know, but as it stands now level progression is still the best solution.
As for #2 - Many older mmos had very good combat. Tanks relied on armor, Healers relied on healing, Casters relied on kiting, Hunters and Rangers relied on snares and traps. And Fighters relied on speed. The possibilities are endless, and even today this can be improved. This NEVER REALLY GOT OLD, developers decided to take it away with easy ( nothing matters ).
No a series of decisions is not always a rotation. And no it isn't all a rotation. A rotation is a preplanned rote execution.
Further if using the rotation not using the rotation or pushing only two buttons in the rotation end up with the same outcome (mob is dead) then any decision made is meaningless. This is the opposite of depth m
You did not provide any evidence of depth. You provided evidence of a rotation. see above.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
If rotations are depth than why would they need to be broken to validate the claim? Seems like you're saying they aren't deep at the same time as saying they are the end all of depth and combat.
Are rotations even a developer intended thing or just something players do to max DPS? Meaning any game with a ton of powers + static NPC will have rotations best for a build based on timers and math. I know in SWG which also has toolbar full of crap also has those long rotation chains. Some more convoluted than others.
Broken? What do you mean?
First you need to understand that games are a series of decisions, so a game always has some kind of rotation.
Then you need to understand is it's all a rotation. The rotation isn't "broken" when the boss puts fire under your feet. If the fire is damaging enough, your rotation includes moving out of the fire. This doesn't "break" your rotation; moving out of the fire is part of the rotation.
So the rotations I linked are only the beginning of what you need to know to perform an optimal rotation. In straight tank-and-spank fights (which are quite rare) it's the rotation you'll use, but most fights (in WOW) will vary that standard rotation.
So if I casually said that the standard rotation was "broken" at some point earlier in the thread, it's only because calling it all a rotation without going into the detailed analysis above would very likely not be understood by the people I was responding to. For the sake of brevity, it's easier to say the standard rotation is broken when the boss puts fire at my feet. But the truth is moving out of the fire is simply one more conditional factor to the rotation.
Are rotations intentional? It depends on the game. It's extremely rare for a developer to accidentally achieve deep gameplay. It can happen, but for the most part if a game's rotations are shallow it's because rotations weren't considered and if a game's rotations are deep it's because the developer put effort into making them deep.
Every game has rotations, so the point about the game with many skills and static NPCs is no exception. However without proper balancing the game with many skills can easily leave one skill overpowered at which point your rotation will be to do little more than spam that best skill. But yes, the best rotation is always the result of timers, math, and other factors.
Lastly, I should note that "move out of the fire" is another example of oversimplifying for the sake of brevity. Because depending on the damage of the fire, the capability of your healer(s), and the strength of your defensive cooldown abilities, you can potentially stand in the fire and continue DPSing. So even in that example there is a much deeper set of conditional logic to the optimal rotation.
You're stating that rotations are depth. When challenged you're basically stating that situational usage is depth. Meaning that rotation is only deep as the need to change it and respond obstacles.
Rotation is by default just a sequence. There is nothing deep about it. It can be longer or more complex but it's not depth without other factors. Those other factors don't require routine. Rotations are the opposite of meaningful decisions. They're preplanned routine.
And yes I doubt developers go as a deep as players to make convoluted rotations based on optimal builds.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
No a series of decisions is not always a rotation. And no it isn't all a rotation. A rotation is a preplanned rote execution.
Further if using the rotation not using the rotation or pushing only two buttons in the rotation end up with the same outcome (mob is dead) then any decision made is meaningless. This is the opposite of depth m
You did not provide any evidence of depth. You provided evidence of a rotation. see above.
My problem is that you are distilling the combat to pure rotations. The game isn't played against a target dummy. Situational skills (movement, cc, self-healing, cooldowns) are common and being aware of your enviroment and reacting to it is paramount.
And my main gripe is that not you, but apparently the rest of the thread, attribute this style of combat to just WoW. One guy thinks that ESO has combat depth. They literally give you 12 skills to choose from at a time during combat. I think there is a potion bar to boot (which of course there are many potions in WoW) Every encounter is insanely more simple in that game.
I'm going to look up 1 specs skills without artifact weapons to show what I mean. All the bold ones are used regualarly in raids. This is the new outlaw rogue:
Adrenaline Rush (Cooldown for times of burst)
Ambush (opener out of stealth that awards 2 combo points)
Between the Eyes (finisher that adds a 5 second stun)
Blade Flurry (a toggle skill that adds aoe damage at the expense of energy regen)
Blind (an instant incapacitate)
Bribe (some wierd fluff skill where you convince a mob to fight with you for 5 minutes) Cloak of Shadows (Removes all negative effects) Create Crimson Vial (A self hot on a 30 second cooldown)
Cheap Shot (a stun opener)
Combat Potency (Passive) (a passive that allows your offhand to occasionally grant extra energy) Feint (reduce damage taken cooldown)
Distract (forces an enemy to look the other way)
Gouge (an incapacitate) Kick (a melee interupt)
Mastery: Main Gauche (Passive) (affected by the mastery stat, allows the offhand to do extra damage)
Pick Pocket (a fluff skill where you can steal small amount of coin from mobs)
Pistol Shot (A ranged combo point builder)
Riposte (a defensive cooldown that also retaliates)
Roll the Bones (a finisher that gives one of 6 random buffs)
Run Through (a finisher that does straight damage)
Ruthlessness (Passive) Grants extra combo points depending on how much you spend with finisher)
Saber Slash (a combo point builder)
Sap (a cc from stealth) Sprint (a movement cooldown)
Stealth (makes you hard to detect for enemies) Tricks of the trade (transfer agro you do for the next 6 seconds to another player)
Vanish (puts you in stealth even if in combat)
On top of that, they have a talent selection where you can add passives or actives. There are literally 21 more skills to choose from that you can take 7 from. And in addition to that, they have apparently made each spec more distinct than ever with 90% of those skills being different.
And remember, they have 34 (soon to be 37) different specs in total. Lets just shoot low and say each class has 20 usable skills in raids. That would be over 600 skills.
This wierd and truly disturbing idea that ESO combat inside top level content has more depth or is more interesting is asinine. It shows ignorance. Here, I'll link to a popular current combat "rotation" as well:
It's a very conditional rotation (and is actually a set of priorities). That priority list doesn't show all of the other meaningful things you have to do and be aware of in an actual raid encounter though. And those priorities get messed with a lot.
And this is why I can't seem to fathom attacking WoW on the depth from when compared to so many other MMORPGs. ESO in particular never held a candle to WoW raid encounters and so to use it as the shining example of depth is just embarrassing in my opinion. And I am still of the opinion, that when compared to games with a lot of depth, WoW doesn't come close to them, but when it goes against other MMORPGs, at the very least, it holds its own.
Revisionist history like a MF'er. The problem with people is they're over romanticizing old games and times. Yes the new stuff is being completely over-monetized and streamlined. Unfortunately that's what free trade, and unregulated industry gets you. That still doesn't give people a license to act like the old games and the people who played them were some utopia of honorable challenging gaming. It's not an honest take. Please stop.
In a sense they were more utopian than today though. While it wasn't the be all end all you did have a much more community focus in older MMORPGs as a lot of the overworld actually required some amount of team work when you weren't able to steam roll everything. The journey through the leveling experience actually had substance to it and it wasn't this streamlined experience where the main focus has become lets rush to level cap as soon as possible because that is where any real content is that has popped up in a fair bit of mmorpgs since WoW hit the market (including WoW and they are one of the worst perpetrators of it)
What the modern mmorpgs have done is made better graphics and play styles (first person and action combat) outside of some "convince" things such as group finder they really haven't drastically improved anything vs the old games short of making them more approachable to the common person that likely has no real interest anyways. Much of the mainstream gaming crowd that came to MMORPGs because of games like WoW tend to not really be mmorpg players to begin with which is why they don't really like much outside of WoW.
We then run into this whole scenario where modern gamers expect a world fleshed out with the same amount of content straight off that WoW has had after multiple expansions for ANYTHING new coming out and it boggles my mind how they expect these games to do that. Basically people seem to want like 20+ dungeons, high level cap that is easy to hit etc.
You need to understand that it isn't over romanticizing when those older games were in fact more challenging and in many cases had more robust systems in place (due to not being overly streamlined) and those older players interacted a lot more in the open world. When you never need a group in the open world of a game that is labeled as an MMORPG maybe just maybe there is a problem in the genre today. A genre where you used to take months or a year or longer to hit level cap, where you had to have some strategy on your pulls and couldn't just go in crazy like and slaughter everything around you with no real thought...
No a series of decisions is not always a rotation. And no it isn't all a rotation. A rotation is a preplanned rote execution.
Further if using the rotation not using the rotation or pushing only two buttons in the rotation end up with the same outcome (mob is dead) then any decision made is meaningless. This is the opposite of depth m
You did not provide any evidence of depth. You provided evidence of a rotation. see above.
My problem is that you are distilling the combat to pure rotations. The game isn't played against a target dummy. Situational skills (movement, cc, self-healing, cooldowns) are common and being aware of your enviroment and reacting to it is paramount.
And my main gripe is that not you, but apparently the rest of the thread, attribute this style of combat to just WoW. One guy thinks that ESO has combat depth. They literally give you 12 skills to choose from at a time during combat. I think there is a potion bar to boot (which of course there are many potions in WoW) Every encounter is insanely more simple in that game.
I'm going to look up 1 specs skills without artifact weapons to show what I mean. All the bold ones are used regualarly in raids. This is the new outlaw rogue:
Adrenaline Rush (Cooldown for times of burst)
Ambush (opener out of stealth that awards 2 combo points)
Between the Eyes (finisher that adds a 5 second stun)
Blade Flurry (a toggle skill that adds aoe damage at the expense of energy regen)
Blind (an instant incapacitate)
Bribe (some wierd fluff skill where you convince a mob to fight with you for 5 minutes) Cloak of Shadows (Removes all negative effects) Create Crimson Vial (A self hot on a 30 second cooldown)
Cheap Shot (a stun opener)
Combat Potency (Passive) (a passive that allows your offhand to occasionally grant extra energy) Feint (reduce damage taken cooldown)
Distract (forces an enemy to look the other way)
Gouge (an incapacitate) Kick (a melee interupt)
Mastery: Main Gauche (Passive) (affected by the mastery stat, allows the offhand to do extra damage)
Pick Pocket (a fluff skill where you can steal small amount of coin from mobs)
Pistol Shot (A ranged combo point builder)
Riposte (a defensive cooldown that also retaliates)
Roll the Bones (a finisher that gives one of 6 random buffs)
Run Through (a finisher that does straight damage)
Ruthlessness (Passive) Grants extra combo points depending on how much you spend with finisher)
Saber Slash (a combo point builder)
Sap (a cc from stealth) Sprint (a movement cooldown)
Stealth (makes you hard to detect for enemies) Tricks of the trade (transfer agro you do for the next 6 seconds to another player)
Vanish (puts you in stealth even if in combat)
On top of that, they have a talent selection where you can add passives or actives. There are literally 21 more skills to choose from that you can take 7 from. And in addition to that, they have apparently made each spec more distinct than ever with 90% of those skills being different.
And remember, they have 34 (soon to be 37) different specs in total. Lets just shoot low and say each class has 20 usable skills in raids. That would be over 600 skills.
This wierd and truly disturbing idea that ESO combat inside top level content has more depth or is more interesting is asinine. It shows ignorance. Here, I'll link to a popular current combat "rotation" as well:
It's a very conditional rotation (and is actually a set of priorities). That priority list doesn't show all of the other meaningful things you have to do and be aware of in an actual raid encounter though. And those priorities get messed with a lot.
And this is why I can't seem to fathom attacking WoW on the depth from when compared to so many other MMORPGs. ESO in particular never held a candle to WoW raid encounters and so to use it as the shining example of depth is just embarrassing in my opinion. And I am still of the opinion, that when compared to games with a lot of depth, WoW doesn't come close to them, but when it goes against other MMORPGs, at the very least, it holds its own.
For most of WoW's mobs you can ignore all of that. It doesn't matter for most of wow's mobs. PVP yes different story, but for PVE for most of the mobs in WoW all that is irrelevant.
I can use a rotation, use a different sequence or literally just mash 2 buttons and the outcome is the same. The mob is dead.
And combat doesn't affect some other signficant aspect of the game. The decisions made in a fight doesn't affect other decisions during that same fight or any other part of the game.
I can't comment on ESO as I only played the open beta.
Other games the combat is just as shallow, but some other games have aspects that use the same skills as those found in combat to help in other areas (e.g strength for combat, strength for crafting) so at least it affects other areas. WoW doesn't.
The game is fun, but not because of it's depth.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
For most of WoW's mobs you can ignore all of that. It doesn't matter for most of wow's mobs. PVP yes different story, but for PVE for most of the mobs in WoW all that is irrelevant.
I can use a rotation, use a different sequence or literally just mash 2 buttons and the outcome is the same. The mob is dead.
And combat doesn't affect some other signficant aspect of the game. The decisions made in a fight doesn't affect other decisions during that same fight or any other part of the game.
I can't comment on ESO as I only played the open beta.
Other games the combat is just as shallow, but some other games have aspects that use the same skills as those found in combat to help in other areas (e.g strength for combat, strength for crafting) so at least it affects other areas. WoW doesn't.
The game is fun, but not because of it's depth.
Oh, now you are talking about world mobs. Maybe you always were. Yeah, world mobs don't usually require you to use your brain at all (with a smattering of exceptions). What a silly thing to base a games depth on. I don't think there are any MMORPGs where the world mobs require too much brain.
Can you please provide of an example of an MMORPG that has this depth that you are talking about? I don't know which one you are referencing when you say strength affects crafting. I also don't see how anyone could possibly say that is the reason a game has depth.
Istaria for one. When you pick your class, you get so many points per level for many stats. However many other stats are gains just be leveling and the stats are based on your class. Those same states are used to give benefits in crafting. E.g. (and I can't remember the exact numbers so bear with this). A warrior for every level gets 10 points in strength, the blacksmith also gets 10 points. So you level up your warrior and it makes leveling a bit easier for the blacksmith. Or level up the blacksmith and it makes leveling the warrior a bit easier.
Just one simple example of a decision that you make for your fighting which affects other areas.
And yes I was talking about world mobs in WoW (and most dungeon mobs too actually), in case there was any confusion.
Now other areas of Istaria are pretty boring (it is a pretty grind heavy game) but it does make you think about what class you are going to level and how you are going to go about it because it might make things easier or harder on other areas you wish to train.
But the biggest point is Don't call a game deep or not strictly based on combat which was what axe did. He stated combat is the most frequent activity and it is deep because of the amount of decisions made in rotation.
Basing a games depth on only one activity is pretty shallow all on it's own. A game can have shallow combat (and most do) and still have good depth if other areas have meaningful decisions.
Wow may have the best combat, and IMO it is actually pretty good. But it is not deep combat (because the decisions made do not affect the outcome of most fights). And you can't call the game deep strictly because of the combat again because the combat is not deep. It's not deep because no part of the game really has any meaningful decisions that impact any other part of the game including combat.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Istaria for one. When you pick your class, you get so many points per level for many stats. However many other stats are gains just be leveling and the stats are based on your class. Those same states are used to give benefits in crafting. E.g. (and I can't remember the exact numbers so bear with this). A warrior for every level gets 10 points in strength, the blacksmith also gets 10 points. So you level up your warrior and it makes leveling a bit easier for the blacksmith. Or level up the blacksmith and it makes leveling the warrior a bit easier.
Just one simple example of a decision that you make for your fighting which affects other areas.
And yes I was talking about world mobs (and most dungeon mobs too actually), in case there was any confusion.
Now other areas of Istaria are pretty boring (it is a pretty grind heavy game) but it does make you think about what class you are going to level and how you are going to go about it because it might make things easier or harder on other areas you wish to train.
Now you are talking about building a character. I agree that WoW is probably one of the weaker MMORPGs when it comes to building your character. But I was talking about combat. And I was talking about mid-high end combat (and Axe was too). What actually occurs when you are combating difficult situations. Which for me at least, was always the heart of the game.
And yes, because of heirlooms, they have completely trivialized almost all leveling content including almost all dungeons. Leveling in WoW is tedious to me not because it is too grindy (it is), or because it lacks interesting things to do (compared to most MMORPGs), but because it is so damn easy.
So, I do agree that leveling content contains almost no depth at this point and that I think heirlooms are a large reason why that is true (especially in dungeons).
Wow may have the best combat, and IMO it is actually pretty good. But it is not deep combat (because the decisions made do not affect the outcome of most fights). And you can't call the game deep strictly because of the combat again because the combat is not deep. It's not deep because no part of the game really has any meaningful decisions that impact any other part of the game including combat.
I get some of this part. So, two things...
1. I completely disagree with the idea that you would call a combat system not deep because world mobs are easy.
2. But I do agree that you can't call an entire game deep based on one facet of that game (combat).
But I do think WoW combat has a lot of depth for an MMORPG. It has almost zero depth during the leveling experience, but if you play PvP (a LOT of depth) or if you raid or do difficult dungeons at max level (SOME depth), there is enough there that it competes or is better than other MMORPGs at COMBAT depth.
I will add that WoW has a lot of other activities though. Strangely, pet battles are a thing. Garrisons were a thing. They always add these little systems to help broaden the scope. These aren't necessarily deep systems, but they do add to the variety.
Dullahan said: Yes, people like bragging rights and stroking their ego. However, when games fail to provide this, players feel unfulfilled.
Poor babies.
Posit: perhaps recreation shouldn't be used for this purpose. Perhaps misusing it for ego support contributes to unhappiness with most of these titles, expecting a game to provide therapy.
Expectation unreasonable.
You seem to lack even an elementary understanding of why people play games.
If that's what your twisted narrative requires.
You seem to view almost everything as a competition. Frustrated jock?
Wow may have the best combat, and IMO it is actually pretty good. But it is not deep combat (because the decisions made do not affect the outcome of most fights). And you can't call the game deep strictly because of the combat again because the combat is not deep. It's not deep because no part of the game really has any meaningful decisions that impact any other part of the game including combat.
I get some of this part. So, two things...
1. I completely disagree with the idea that you would call a combat system not deep because world mobs are easy.
2. But I do agree that you can't call an entire game deep based on one facet of that game (combat).
But I do think WoW combat has a lot of depth for an MMORPG. It has almost zero depth during the leveling experience, but if you play PvP (a LOT of depth) or if you raid or do difficult dungeons at max level (SOME depth), there is enough there that it competes or is better than other MMORPGs at COMBAT depth.
I will add that WoW has a lot of other activities though. Strangely, pet battles are a thing. Garrisons were a thing. They always add these little systems to help broaden the scope. These aren't necessarily deep systems, but they do add to the variety.
I understand and this would be the difference of opinion which is also fine.
To me a system has depth when the decisions are meaningful (as in has some kind of impact). If the decisions made in combat don't really affect the outcome (mob dies regardless) then the system is not deep.
Now I get your point that you shouldn't base this on easy mobs, and to a point I agree. However if the majority of the mobs in the game are like this and just a few of the end game mobs require thought and significant decisions (so depth) then really it doesn't matter how much depth the system has, the majority of your time with it is not significant.
If it was 50/50 mobs for simple and complicated well that is lots of room for discussion but it seems like it is 90/10 (yes I did just pull that from my butt and no that doesn't include hard mode things which is another discussion I realize). Part of this conversation I realize is self-fulfilling because the leveling to me is the most significant part, I can't stand doing the repetitive raids.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
I happened to spot this below and agreed with it mostly.
I'd also like to add more:
-----------------------------------
• Any preferred mechanics?:
• Anything specific you want to exclude?:
- - Pay to Win (cosmetic cash shop *ok, and subscription **ok *)
- - Dumbed-down systems (i.e. Icons over-heads, maps with paths to point you where to go, etc)
- - NPCs standing around doing nothing..
- - No Hello-Kitty backpacks...
- - No age/gender restriction on playable classes (booo Black Desert)
-----------------------------------Isn't exploration it's own reward? Why would I need a little ding or red fozzle reward for finding someplace?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Some 'Ding' or reward for finding notable things on your own isn't a bad thing IMO.
Are rotations even a developer intended thing or just something players do to max DPS? Meaning any game with a ton of powers + static NPC will have rotations best for a build based on timers and math. I know in SWG which also has toolbar full of crap also has those long rotation chains. Some more convoluted than others.
It is as if they don't understand what 'artistic merit' would mean. It often seem as if they aren't even trying to make a good game.
Superficial crap in every game it seems. Populistic drivel.
Devs please, PLEASE!
Try end up having a game with artistic merit!
Their just 30 day playgrounds built with some wonderment for the players to stay interested for awhile, and maybe spend some money in the cash shop on that new blue dress before it turns into Play-to-win.
They even have the timing down to a science on when players should start spending money without making themselves look bad.....It's a fine line and they have it exact.
Remember, Study show:
" players play everything as long as they advertise "
There are two main reasons why MMO's (not in every MMO) have faster combat encounters and not the more difficult and longer challenges like in Dark Souls.
1. Many MMO's design is all about character progression and for some (imo outdated and stupid) reason, there is this idea that a character is not complete before it reaches max lvl.During a large part of the levelling journey, combat feels very bland because of this. Especially in tab based MMO's.
2. The combat system in many MMO's is just too simple and repetitive to remain fun in longer trash fights. In most cases it doesn't leave many options for tactics, beyond pulling more mobs then wanted. Levelling is often done solo, for which the trinity system is a bad design too. If your class can't spec dps, you would have a snorefest in long lasting fights.
The moment you leave levels and vertical gear prog. out of a MMO, or make them less meaningless, people tend to get confused and start to rage about how it is not even a MMO or asking what is the point to play? There is a group of players that just craves the quest checklist , achievements, arbitrary levels and vertical gear progression. Especially this lvl and gear progression turns most of the content into trash in terms of difficulty. This design always ends up having very easy combat and group content with easy to write guides.
TL;DR OP doesn't seem to realise that there is a large group of players really not interested in Dark Souls kind of combat.
First you need to understand that games are a series of decisions, so a game always has some kind of rotation.
Then you need to understand is it's all a rotation. The rotation isn't "broken" when the boss puts fire under your feet. If the fire is damaging enough, your rotation includes moving out of the fire. This doesn't "break" your rotation; moving out of the fire is part of the rotation.
So the rotations I linked are only the beginning of what you need to know to perform an optimal rotation. In straight tank-and-spank fights (which are quite rare) it's the rotation you'll use, but most fights (in WOW) will vary that standard rotation.
So if I casually said that the standard rotation was "broken" at some point earlier in the thread, it's only because calling it all a rotation without going into the detailed analysis above would very likely not be understood by the people I was responding to. For the sake of brevity, it's easier to say the standard rotation is broken when the boss puts fire at my feet. But the truth is moving out of the fire is simply one more conditional factor to the rotation.
Are rotations intentional? It depends on the game. It's extremely rare for a developer to accidentally achieve deep gameplay. It can happen, but for the most part if a game's rotations are shallow it's because rotations weren't considered and if a game's rotations are deep it's because the developer put effort into making them deep.
Every game has rotations, so the point about the game with many skills and static NPCs is no exception. However without proper balancing the game with many skills can easily leave one skill overpowered at which point your rotation will be to do little more than spam that best skill. But yes, the best rotation is always the result of timers, math, and other factors.
Lastly, I should note that "move out of the fire" is another example of oversimplifying for the sake of brevity. Because depending on the damage of the fire, the capability of your healer(s), and the strength of your defensive cooldown abilities, you can potentially stand in the fire and continue DPSing. So even in that example there is a much deeper set of conditional logic to the optimal rotation.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Dark Souls was only used in the comparison for the purpose saying combat and preparing for combat is the number one essential for almost all video games. Obliviously you have other games like Sims and such, but mmos are based around combat.
Dark Souls is based on very hard combat, I'm definitely not saying mmos should be as such. But take combat away from Dark Souls and you have a weak shell, of basically nothing.....This is the reason I used Dark Souls ( just an extreme example ). If you take away the medium combat of an mmo, again you have a weak shell.
As for #1 - If developers are doing their job on a good quality mmo level progression should be fun and a journey. If anyone has a better idea, I'm sure everyone would like to know, but as it stands now level progression is still the best solution.
As for #2 - Many older mmos had very good combat. Tanks relied on armor, Healers relied on healing, Casters relied on kiting, Hunters and Rangers relied on snares and traps. And Fighters relied on speed. The possibilities are endless, and even today this can be improved. This NEVER REALLY GOT OLD, developers decided to take it away with easy ( nothing matters ).
Further if using the rotation not using the rotation or pushing only two buttons in the rotation end up with the same outcome (mob is dead) then any decision made is meaningless. This is the opposite of depth m
You did not provide any evidence of depth. You provided evidence of a rotation. see above.
Rotation is by default just a sequence. There is nothing deep about it. It can be longer or more complex but it's not depth without other factors. Those other factors don't require routine. Rotations are the opposite of meaningful decisions. They're preplanned routine.
And yes I doubt developers go as a deep as players to make convoluted rotations based on optimal builds.
Which online FPS games do you play?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
And my main gripe is that not you, but apparently the rest of the thread, attribute this style of combat to just WoW. One guy thinks that ESO has combat depth. They literally give you 12 skills to choose from at a time during combat. I think there is a potion bar to boot (which of course there are many potions in WoW) Every encounter is insanely more simple in that game.
I'm going to look up 1 specs skills without artifact weapons to show what I mean. All the bold ones are used regualarly in raids. This is the new outlaw rogue:
Cloak of Shadows (Removes all negative effects)
Create Crimson Vial (A self hot on a 30 second cooldown)
Feint (reduce damage taken cooldown)
Kick (a melee interupt)
Sprint (a movement cooldown)
Tricks of the trade (transfer agro you do for the next 6 seconds to another player)
On top of that, they have a talent selection where you can add passives or actives. There are literally 21 more skills to choose from that you can take 7 from. And in addition to that, they have apparently made each spec more distinct than ever with 90% of those skills being different.
And remember, they have 34 (soon to be 37) different specs in total. Lets just shoot low and say each class has 20 usable skills in raids. That would be over 600 skills.
This wierd and truly disturbing idea that ESO combat inside top level content has more depth or is more interesting is asinine. It shows ignorance. Here, I'll link to a popular current combat "rotation" as well:
http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/outlaw-rogue-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities
It's a very conditional rotation (and is actually a set of priorities). That priority list doesn't show all of the other meaningful things you have to do and be aware of in an actual raid encounter though. And those priorities get messed with a lot.
And this is why I can't seem to fathom attacking WoW on the depth from when compared to so many other MMORPGs. ESO in particular never held a candle to WoW raid encounters and so to use it as the shining example of depth is just embarrassing in my opinion. And I am still of the opinion, that when compared to games with a lot of depth, WoW doesn't come close to them, but when it goes against other MMORPGs, at the very least, it holds its own.
What the modern mmorpgs have done is made better graphics and play styles (first person and action combat) outside of some "convince" things such as group finder they really haven't drastically improved anything vs the old games short of making them more approachable to the common person that likely has no real interest anyways. Much of the mainstream gaming crowd that came to MMORPGs because of games like WoW tend to not really be mmorpg players to begin with which is why they don't really like much outside of WoW.
We then run into this whole scenario where modern gamers expect a world fleshed out with the same amount of content straight off that WoW has had after multiple expansions for ANYTHING new coming out and it boggles my mind how they expect these games to do that. Basically people seem to want like 20+ dungeons, high level cap that is easy to hit etc.
You need to understand that it isn't over romanticizing when those older games were in fact more challenging and in many cases had more robust systems in place (due to not being overly streamlined) and those older players interacted a lot more in the open world. When you never need a group in the open world of a game that is labeled as an MMORPG maybe just maybe there is a problem in the genre today. A genre where you used to take months or a year or longer to hit level cap, where you had to have some strategy on your pulls and couldn't just go in crazy like and slaughter everything around you with no real thought...
I can use a rotation, use a different sequence or literally just mash 2 buttons and the outcome is the same. The mob is dead.
And combat doesn't affect some other signficant aspect of the game. The decisions made in a fight doesn't affect other decisions during that same fight or any other part of the game.
I can't comment on ESO as I only played the open beta.
Other games the combat is just as shallow, but some other games have aspects that use the same skills as those found in combat to help in other areas (e.g strength for combat, strength for crafting) so at least it affects other areas. WoW doesn't.
The game is fun, but not because of it's depth.
Can you please provide of an example of an MMORPG that has this depth that you are talking about? I don't know which one you are referencing when you say strength affects crafting. I also don't see how anyone could possibly say that is the reason a game has depth.
Just one simple example of a decision that you make for your fighting which affects other areas.
And yes I was talking about world mobs in WoW (and most dungeon mobs too actually), in case there was any confusion.
Now other areas of Istaria are pretty boring (it is a pretty grind heavy game) but it does make you think about what class you are going to level and how you are going to go about it because it might make things easier or harder on other areas you wish to train.
But the biggest point is Don't call a game deep or not strictly based on combat which was what axe did. He stated combat is the most frequent activity and it is deep because of the amount of decisions made in rotation.
Basing a games depth on only one activity is pretty shallow all on it's own. A game can have shallow combat (and most do) and still have good depth if other areas have meaningful decisions.
Wow may have the best combat, and IMO it is actually pretty good. But it is not deep combat (because the decisions made do not affect the outcome of most fights). And you can't call the game deep strictly because of the combat again because the combat is not deep. It's not deep because no part of the game really has any meaningful decisions that impact any other part of the game including combat.
And yes, because of heirlooms, they have completely trivialized almost all leveling content including almost all dungeons. Leveling in WoW is tedious to me not because it is too grindy (it is), or because it lacks interesting things to do (compared to most MMORPGs), but because it is so damn easy.
So, I do agree that leveling content contains almost no depth at this point and that I think heirlooms are a large reason why that is true (especially in dungeons).
1. I completely disagree with the idea that you would call a combat system not deep because world mobs are easy.
2. But I do agree that you can't call an entire game deep based on one facet of that game (combat).
But I do think WoW combat has a lot of depth for an MMORPG. It has almost zero depth during the leveling experience, but if you play PvP (a LOT of depth) or if you raid or do difficult dungeons at max level (SOME depth), there is enough there that it competes or is better than other MMORPGs at COMBAT depth.
I will add that WoW has a lot of other activities though. Strangely, pet battles are a thing. Garrisons were a thing. They always add these little systems to help broaden the scope. These aren't necessarily deep systems, but they do add to the variety.
You seem to view almost everything as a competition. Frustrated jock?
To me a system has depth when the decisions are meaningful (as in has some kind of impact). If the decisions made in combat don't really affect the outcome (mob dies regardless) then the system is not deep.
Now I get your point that you shouldn't base this on easy mobs, and to a point I agree. However if the majority of the mobs in the game are like this and just a few of the end game mobs require thought and significant decisions (so depth) then really it doesn't matter how much depth the system has, the majority of your time with it is not significant.
If it was 50/50 mobs for simple and complicated well that is lots of room for discussion but it seems like it is 90/10 (yes I did just pull that from my butt and no that doesn't include hard mode things which is another discussion I realize). Part of this conversation I realize is self-fulfilling because the leveling to me is the most significant part, I can't stand doing the repetitive raids.