jesteralways said: Ohh wait i forgot, confused and misguided individuals never acknowledge that they are actually like that, they always believe that the rest of the world is confused and misguided and the world needs fixing. That line of thinking gets you in trouble.
Have fun figuring it out.
Pretty much this.
That is a reason why core "argument" in these debates is word "should". How things "should" be instead of how they are and why.
This is why i am saying you don't know what pay2win is. You are misguided and confused, you need to rethink your life.
You should probably try paying someone to help you with posting better responses.
You are obviously lacking the time to think for better post responses as well.
I am sure someone more capable would be more than happy to help you for a small fee.
Here is the thing : someone is screaming "i hate pay2win" and then says "if i am paying i want to win", do you realize how messed up that is? I mean this person can't simply think of the possibility that someone is paying so that he can level up faster or make gear grind faster, not to win. This person can not think of any possibility beyond "money wins everything" and he confess that he wants to win with money and then again says he hates those who win with money. Do you realize how confused and misguided this person is?
Ohh wait i forgot, confused and misguided individuals never acknowledge that they are actually like that, they always believe that the rest of the world is confused and misguided and the world needs fixing. That line of thinking gets you in trouble.
Have fun figuring it out.
Do you mean like someone creating one's own "confused and misguided" assumptions and then arriving at conclusions based on those same "confused and misguided" assumptions?
'J Geils Band - Centerfold' moment. I guess it really is all downhill from here
Aye. Thankfully, WoW:Legion comes soon, and the invasions start next week along with Demon Hunter. Blizzard never ever disappointed me that way. And they never will.
This said, there's a massive uprising on the BDO forums in the thread about that. Be sure to post your disagreement. It's NOT live yet. Maybe seeing it's not an uprising, but rather a major riot, they will change their mind?
Most likely someone has pointed this out already but WoW is already doing this with the $$$>Token>Gold process. 20 bucks buys you 40k gold thereabouts. And then of course buying a lvl 100 character for $60. So if BDO doing it disappoints you I'm not sure how Blizzard doing it doesn't disappoint you.
Very simple. You can't pay to win in WoW. Gold doesn't get you the best gear. Only playing does that, be it PvE or PvP.
Wrong!! You can buy your way into mythic raids and get free roll in loot in WoW. Even with newest PvP changes by normalizing items in PvP, players with top tier PvE items will still have about 5% stats advantage over players with full PvP set.
You mean, paying other players to take you in a mythic raid? How is that "pay to win"? Your group still has to complete the raid to get any gear. You still have to play the game the normal way. And in my guild, we do this for free... so is that "free to win"?
What you say is that basically any player interaction in a MMORPG involving one player or more helping another player is pay to win... which is, obviously, nonsense.
My forum avatar applies more than ever.
I guess i will have to write it in more detail. SO here goes :
1. Buy token 2. Sell token for gold 3. Use the gold to get into raid and get best tier gear. 4. Get stats advantage in PvP.
Clear? Also we are strictly talking about effect of RMT here. So your guild activity details to negate my point is your avatar worthy.
You forgot the part saying "Complete the raid by killing all the bosses". You paid for friends to do the raid with you, not to get the gear. The usual effort to get the gear, which is killing the raid bosses, is still there. It's not pay to win.
Effort? You joking right? Have you ever sold gear run? or ever bought it?
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Forgrimm said: Seems that you missed the point of the hypothetical work scenario.
So the point of hypothetical work scenario was that it is invalid hypothetical work scenario...?
Employee A - Works at the company for 5 years, regularly puts in 50 - 60 hour weeks developing and advancing the company's product line. Makes business connections, has a wealth of experience, knows how to manage both people and processes.
Employee B - New hire fresh off the streets, fresh out of college. No real-world business knowledge. Him, or his wealthy parents, makes a "donation" to the company. In return, as a "favor" he gets promoted to a position above employee A.
That's the scenario. Employee A is the gamer who can "no-life" it and put in 10 hours a day in a game. he should reap the rewards. Employee B is the casual player who plays for a few hours here and there but swipes his credit card to buy in-game items and sells them for in-game currency. He shouldn't reap the rewards.
Its amazing the semantics coming out here. Obviously pay to win is the norm now since more than half the people seem to be defending it or coming up with ways to excuse it. Or maybe just for this particular game.
Either way it shows the mentality of gamers these days.
When there used to be a 'loot table' and a progression people knew what to expect. Now its all in the guise of an RNG and then the inevitable selling of something to improve the RNG chance, which is now being bypassed for simply selling the items direct.
While there can be 'degrees' of pay to win it still comes under the definition of pay to win.
Paying someone to help you do a boss in the 'old' system was not pay to win because there was still a chance you wouldnt get what you wanted. Also a big difference from at least pretending to do the content and the necessary steps to have a chance at a drop and simply pressing a couple buttons and having it appear in your inventory.
I just know that if Bethesda had done this with ESO the world would have burned. People freaked out and lost their minds because they offered a few (yes P2W) items in a couple different packages. My how times have changed. Or like I said its just the games themselves with the various fans and haters on either side fighting it out.
And because they do its totally okay for those with more money than others to use that advantage in any way they want. Tbh its that kind of thinking that imo represents the very worst factors of some online games.
Like I said inequality of time is a factor in online games that is deemed acceptable
Inequality of money is deemed unacceptable.
What about intelligence or skill?
Lots of inequalities exist and yet the only one that offends is money.
A player who has 16 hours a day to play has a huge advantage, over a player who has 2 hours a day.
Giving players with little time but enough money an option to fast track through games is a great idea.
Your opinions are grounded on a distorted reality.
When it comes to games, and the outcome of games, money should never be a factor. Again, the objective of a game is to compete. And competition is driven by a player's own skills, qualities, and abilities matched against an opponent's skills, qualities and abilities, and may the player with the better skills, qualities, and abilities win. These are inherent personal qualities that players pit against one another to beat or "win" at a game against an opponent.
Your analogy is equivalent to a non athletic basketball player paying an athletic basketball player money to "win" a game against another basektball player because that non-athletic basketball player did not have the time to practice and become a better basketball player. In that case, as in a non-athletic game such as an MMO, it was the money paid that won the game, not the skills and abilities of the player. Why should that exchange be deemed unacceptable, but perfectly acceptable in an MMO?
Lack of available time should never be an excuse for not being able to compete. If you want to compete, then you should be expected to put in the time to become the best. Becoming the best takes practice, and practice takes time. Finding an excuse, such as lack of time, to circumvent one the most fundamental elements of achievement, which is work ethic, is the very definition of entitlement.
One should not be be able to buy everything, and that is particularly true when it comes to competition and gaming.
Money isn't a factor in professional or collegiate sports? Money isn't a factor in the Olympics? Money isn't a factor at your local golf course? Money isn't a factor in a Poker tournament?
The people with the most money have access to buy (or train) the best athletes, pay for the best coaches and facilities, use the best gear, etc. Isn't money a factor on who is the best in eSports as well?
You should rethink your argument
Money is a factor but it's not like an athlete can show up an hour a week and then just buy a gold medal or trophy.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Ah, the good old P2W definitions again. It would be good to know the origins of P2W before trying to define it.
P2W originally meant buying the most powerful stats on gear, weapons, and other items. These stats couldn't be obtained any other way. You're paying to win competitively and gaining an advantage, whether it's pve or pvp.
Is this true in Black Desert? If so, then it's P2W.
Your opinions are grounded on a distorted reality.
When it comes to games, and the outcome of games, money should never be a factor. Again, the objective of a game is to compete. And competition is driven by a player's own skills, qualities, and abilities matched against an opponent's skills, qualities and abilities, and may the player with the better skills, qualities, and abilities win. These are inherent personal qualities that players pit against one another to beat or "win" at a game against an opponent.
Your analogy is equivalent to a non athletic basketball player paying an athletic basketball player money to "win" a game against another basektball player because that non-athletic basketball player did not have the time to practice and become a better basketball player. In that case, as in a non-athletic game such as an MMO, it was the money paid that won the game, not the skills and abilities of the player. Why should that exchange be deemed unacceptable, but perfectly acceptable in an MMO?
Lack of available time should never be an excuse for not being able to compete. If you want to compete, then you should be expected to put in the time to become the best. Becoming the best takes practice, and practice takes time. Finding an excuse, such as lack of time, to circumvent one the most fundamental elements of achievement, which is work ethic, is the very definition of entitlement.
One should not be be able to buy everything, and that is particularly true when it comes to competition and gaming.
Money isn't a factor in professional or collegiate sports? Money isn't a factor in the Olympics? Money isn't a factor at your local golf course? Money isn't a factor in a Poker tournament?
The people with the most money have access to buy (or train) the best athletes, pay for the best coaches and facilities, use the best gear, etc. Isn't money a factor on who is the best in eSports as well?
You should rethink your argument
Your analogies are flawed.
Does the money paid by an MMO gamer buy (or train) the best MMO players, or pay for the best coaches to train another gamer to immediately compete for them at the highest levels?
Does the money paid by an individual immediately "buy" an athlete the skills and abilities that they did not inherently possess that allows them to immediately compete at a higher level?
Does the money paid to hire and coach an athlete immediately instill in an athlete the skills and abilities that they inherently do not possess that allows them to immediately compete at a higher level?
Take your time and answer the above questions and then do yourself a favor, follow your own advice, and rethink your argument.
Competition is about personal achievement through personal effort. Lack of time, or abundance of wealth, only serve as excuses and crutches for the lazy, unskilled, spoiled and entitled.
Ah, the good old P2W definitions again. It would be good to know the origins of P2W before trying to define it.
P2W originally meant buying the most powerful stats on gear, weapons, and other items. These stats couldn't be obtained any other way. You're paying to win competitively and gaining an advantage, whether it's pve or pvp.
Is this true in Black Desert? If so, then it's P2W.
Just because someone can spend months playing the game to get the best stuff doesn't negate the fact that someone else could throw thousands of dollars at the game to get the best stuff. The fact that a game let's you buy the best stuff makes it P2W.
I mean by this definition of can't be obtained any other way, the only game that is actually P2W is project entropia and people can dump thousands on a game and somehow it's not P2W as long as you can get the stuff by playing the game.
P2W for me is paying for an advantage the more the advantage and the higher the price the more it's P2W.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Ah, the good old P2W definitions again. It would be good to know the origins of P2W before trying to define it.
P2W originally meant buying the most powerful stats on gear, weapons, and other items. These stats couldn't be obtained any other way. You're paying to win competitively and gaining an advantage, whether it's pve or pvp.
Is this true in Black Desert? If so, then it's P2W.
Just because someone can spend months playing the game to get the best stuff doesn't negate the fact that someone else could throw thousands of dollars at the game to get the best stuff. The fact that a game let's you buy the best stuff makes it P2W.
I mean by this definition of can't be obtained any other way, the only game that is actually P2W is project entropia and people can dump thousands on a game and somehow it's not P2W as long as you can get the stuff by playing the game.
P2W for me is paying for an advantage the more the advantage and the higher the price the more it's P2W.
No, not necessarily. If the best stuff isn't giving an advantage in competitive gameplay, then it's not P2W, because you're not actually winning anything. There's a difference between advancement and advantage. It just depends how you define competitive gameplay.
'J Geils Band - Centerfold' moment. I guess it really is all downhill from here
Aye. Thankfully, WoW:Legion comes soon, and the invasions start next week along with Demon Hunter. Blizzard never ever disappointed me that way. And they never will.
This said, there's a massive uprising on the BDO forums in the thread about that. Be sure to post your disagreement. It's NOT live yet. Maybe seeing it's not an uprising, but rather a major riot, they will change their mind?
Most likely someone has pointed this out already but WoW is already doing this with the $$$>Token>Gold process. 20 bucks buys you 40k gold thereabouts. And then of course buying a lvl 100 character for $60. So if BDO doing it disappoints you I'm not sure how Blizzard doing it doesn't disappoint you.
Very simple. You can't pay to win in WoW. Gold doesn't get you the best gear. Only playing does that, be it PvE or PvP.
Wrong!! You can buy your way into mythic raids and get free roll in loot in WoW. Even with newest PvP changes by normalizing items in PvP, players with top tier PvE items will still have about 5% stats advantage over players with full PvP set.
You mean, paying other players to take you in a mythic raid? How is that "pay to win"? Your group still has to complete the raid to get any gear. You still have to play the game the normal way. And in my guild, we do this for free... so is that "free to win"?
What you say is that basically any player interaction in a MMORPG involving one player or more helping another player is pay to win... which is, obviously, nonsense.
My forum avatar applies more than ever.
I guess i will have to write it in more detail. SO here goes :
1. Buy token 2. Sell token for gold 3. Use the gold to get into raid and get best tier gear. 4. Get stats advantage in PvP.
Clear? Also we are strictly talking about effect of RMT here. So your guild activity details to negate my point is your avatar worthy.
You forgot the part saying "Complete the raid by killing all the bosses". You paid for friends to do the raid with you, not to get the gear. The usual effort to get the gear, which is killing the raid bosses, is still there. It's not pay to win.
Effort? You joking right? Have you ever sold gear run? or ever bought it?
Do you imply that you don't have to complete any content, and they just hand the gear to you?
Don't be silly... you only embarrass yourself now.
If you want to believe /follow is doing content then be my guest....
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
observer said: If the best stuff isn't giving an advantage in competitive gameplay, then it's not P2W, because you're not actually winning anything.
"The best stuff" argument is moot.
It is like arriving at Tour de France with your $100 bike you bought at Walmart and screaming P2W! when see you bikes of your competitors.
"P2W" in a nutshell.
Not a good analogy. Tour de France requires physical activity, so you're going to have limitations, unless you start cheating with steroids or other enhancements.
Video games are different, since the balance between stats are determined by the developers. If the gap is too wide between players, no amount of reflexive activity is going to overcome those with P2W stats.
observer said: If the best stuff isn't giving an advantage in competitive gameplay, then it's not P2W, because you're not actually winning anything.
"The best stuff" argument is moot.
It is like arriving at Tour de France with your $100 bike you bought at Walmart and screaming P2W! when see you bikes of your competitors.
"P2W" in a nutshell.
A more befitting analogy would be arriving at Tour de France with your $100 bike you bought at Walmart and then "buying" a pickup from the Tour de France cash shop, loading your $100 Walmart bike on the back of your cash shop purchase, and then breezing through the race against your competitors peddling their bicycles.
Comments
That is a reason why core "argument" in these debates is word "should". How things "should" be instead of how they are and why.
Clear detachment with reality.
Do you mean like someone creating one's own "confused and misguided" assumptions and then arriving at conclusions based on those same "confused and misguided" assumptions?
Have fun figuring that one out.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Employee B - New hire fresh off the streets, fresh out of college. No real-world business knowledge. Him, or his wealthy parents, makes a "donation" to the company. In return, as a "favor" he gets promoted to a position above employee A.
That's the scenario. Employee A is the gamer who can "no-life" it and put in 10 hours a day in a game. he should reap the rewards. Employee B is the casual player who plays for a few hours here and there but swipes his credit card to buy in-game items and sells them for in-game currency. He shouldn't reap the rewards.
Get it? Got it? Good
It isn't the "labour" that matters.
BDO implemented exactly that.
Either way it shows the mentality of gamers these days.
When there used to be a 'loot table' and a progression people knew what to expect. Now its all in the guise of an RNG and then the inevitable selling of something to improve the RNG chance, which is now being bypassed for simply selling the items direct.
While there can be 'degrees' of pay to win it still comes under the definition of pay to win.
Paying someone to help you do a boss in the 'old' system was not pay to win because there was still a chance you wouldnt get what you wanted. Also a big difference from at least pretending to do the content and the necessary steps to have a chance at a drop and simply pressing a couple buttons and having it appear in your inventory.
I just know that if Bethesda had done this with ESO the world would have burned. People freaked out and lost their minds because they offered a few (yes P2W) items in a couple different packages. My how times have changed. Or like I said its just the games themselves with the various fans and haters on either side fighting it out.
Thank your for demonstrating how meaningless the term is though.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/P2W originally meant buying the most powerful stats on gear, weapons, and other items. These stats couldn't be obtained any other way. You're paying to win competitively and gaining an advantage, whether it's pve or pvp.
Is this true in Black Desert? If so, then it's P2W.
Spending money does not buy you a medal either, just get you gear, puts you on equal footing with no-lifers.
Your analogies are flawed.
Does the money paid by an MMO gamer buy (or train) the best MMO players, or pay for the best coaches to train another gamer to immediately compete for them at the highest levels?
Does the money paid by an individual immediately "buy" an athlete the skills and abilities that they did not inherently possess that allows them to immediately compete at a higher level?
Does the money paid to hire and coach an athlete immediately instill in an athlete the skills and abilities that they inherently do not possess that allows them to immediately compete at a higher level?
Take your time and answer the above questions and then do yourself a favor, follow your own advice, and rethink your argument.
Competition is about personal achievement through personal effort. Lack of time, or abundance of wealth, only serve as excuses and crutches for the lazy, unskilled, spoiled and entitled.
I mean by this definition of can't be obtained any other way, the only game that is actually P2W is project entropia and people can dump thousands on a game and somehow it's not P2W as long as you can get the stuff by playing the game.
P2W for me is paying for an advantage the more the advantage and the higher the price the more it's P2W.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/It's a horrible system that turns me off personally.
It is like arriving at Tour de France with your $100 bike you bought at Walmart and screaming P2W! when see you bikes of your competitors.
"P2W" in a nutshell.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Video games are different, since the balance between stats are determined by the developers. If the gap is too wide between players, no amount of reflexive activity is going to overcome those with P2W stats.
A more befitting analogy would be arriving at Tour de France with your $100 bike you bought at Walmart and then "buying" a pickup from the Tour de France cash shop, loading your $100 Walmart bike on the back of your cash shop purchase, and then breezing through the race against your competitors peddling their bicycles.
This is too easy :awesome:
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/