I won´t...but i HATE when they lock awesome loot behind them. I know they need to get money somehow...but gambling boxes sucks. It´s lazy and expensive! And you won´t get that awesome loot even paying a sub so it sucks double!
It's not lazy at all, they do it on purpose because people will want "a look" and think, "well, one more".
It's the same thinking that goes behind slots.
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I won´t...but i HATE when they lock awesome loot behind them. I know they need to get money somehow...but gambling boxes sucks. It´s lazy and expensive! And you won´t get that awesome loot even paying a sub so it sucks double!
It's not lazy at all, they do it on purpose because people will want "a look" and think, "well, one more".
It's the same thinking that goes behind slots.
They definitely do it on purpose because people think, "well, one more." Perhaps until their credit is maxed. Gambling has that effect on a certain percentage of people. And they know it. Which is why this has given some people, that believe a 1-off purchase would be favorable, pause.
For full disclosure, I've never been a fan of this game. But I often keep my mouth shut. This time... this just seems slimy.
I won´t...but i HATE when they lock awesome loot behind them. I know they need to get money somehow...but gambling boxes sucks. It´s lazy and expensive! And you won´t get that awesome loot even paying a sub so it sucks double!
It's not lazy at all, they do it on purpose because people will want "a look" and think, "well, one more".
It's the same thinking that goes behind slots.
They definitely do it on purpose because people think, "well, one more." Perhaps until their credit is maxed. Gambling has that effect on a certain percentage of people. And they know it. Which is why this has given some people, that believe a 1-off purchase would be favorable, pause.
For full disclosure, I've never been a fan of this game. But I often keep my mouth shut. This time... this just seems slimy.
Well I've always been a fan of this game but this time I agree with you.
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gervaise1 said: Society disagrees about "no control at all". Most (all?) countries have laws pertaining to gambling.
And the reason is simple: there is an established link between gambling and crime.
Not at all.
Like you said, there is a "fine line". The reason behind the line is just politics, there are no practical reasons.
Should I remind you prohibition? See how that works?
Where is money, there is crime - always was and always will be.
But people like to hear such pompous rhetoric, that is how you get votes...
Society disagrees; laws about gambling exist. And to ignore established links between addiction, crime and medical issues goes against a whole raft of data, studies and experience going back hundreds of years. (Could be thousands of years - gambling existed in ancient societies as did laws about gambling).
Now your view maybe shaped by how things play out in the US. Elsewhere not the case. Others countries not the case; no prohibition either (good example of the fine line though).
Free will vs. the responsibility people have to each other - whether that is helping individuals who need help or preventing individuals doing harm to others.
Which takes us full circle in some respects.
Zenimax is not free to do what it wants. Like any companies it is bound by laws. Easy to say that companies should be able to do what they want but sex, nudity, violence, religious bigotry and US flag burning? There are limits. Actually not about the flag burning but that might not sell well in the US. You ,ight say that that is a self regulating law.
And populism - which drives explicit and self regulating laws is what this comes down to. As it stands RNG boxes are accepted maybe a better word would be tolerated - providing that minors are not placed at risk.
You can have sex on a flag, while it is on fire, while shooting a bear, and flipping off a crucifix and then sell it in America.
But there are laws against gambling with the exception of a few parts in the US. Not that I necessarily agree with those laws, but it is funny that the other things you mentioned are actually legal, but gambling is not (for the most part).
Because there is no money to be made by the government for having sex on a flag, while it is on fire, while shooting a bear, and flipping off a crucifix and then selling it in America.
Maybe it's time I cancelled my subscription that I have held since launch. I'm not very interested in playing games with RNG loot boxes.
then dont buy them. Are cosmetics and skins in that game so important that if someone has one they got from a slot machine it will ruin the experience of the people around them?
I thought looks and what armor looked 'cool' dies out a long time ago, in fact the only two games I can think of where it was a major deal was GW 1 and WoW, maybe Lotro before they started having about a million different clothing items in that game. And all those games are basically a decade or more old.
I was a critic of them selling the Imperial edition and what it gave and thought it was just the first step, but now about two years later they arent blatantly selling anything remotely pay to win shows they probably wont. Because they dont have to. Maybe this is a test to see how RNG sales go and at 'worst' they sell different 'degrees/tiers' of them for a range of prices which have 'better' looking stuff in them.
gervaise1 said: Society disagrees; laws about gambling exist. And to ignore established links between addiction, crime and medical issues goes against a whole raft of data, studies and experience going back hundreds of years. (Could be thousands of years - gambling existed in ancient societies as did laws about gambling).
Now your view maybe shaped by how things play out in the US. Elsewhere not the case. Others countries not the case; no prohibition either (good example of the fine line though).
Free will vs. the responsibility people have to each other - whether that is helping individuals who need help or preventing individuals doing harm to others.
Which takes us full circle in some respects.
Zenimax is not free to do what it wants. Like any companies it is bound by laws. Easy to say that companies should be able to do what they want but sex, nudity, violence, religious bigotry and US flag burning? There are limits. Actually not about the flag burning but that might not sell well in the US. You ,ight say that that is a self regulating law.
And populism - which drives explicit and self regulating laws is what this comes down to. As it stands RNG boxes are accepted maybe a better word would be tolerated - providing that minors are not placed at risk.
You are just rehearsing what you already said and it was all addressed in my previous post, so I am not sure what are you trying to achieve there.
Also, did you read the reply and provided link by waynejr2..?
I uninstalled ESO a few weeks ago, mainly due to the poor performance and unresolved bugs that have been in game for ever it seems.
With the addition of Gambling boxes I am glad I did. For many people it is not that big of a deal, for people such as myself it assures that I will never play ESO again.
I will say however that I greatly enjoyed my time with the game. The development has just gone in a direction I am not interested in and wont support anymore.
Shit! Not read the entire thread. I HATE gambling boxes of any form, I think they rely on the frustration of the buyer rather than the quality of the game, and I would personally penalise them under UK gambling laws.
But I am not likely to stop playing this game, it is the only quality recent mmo available...
Shit! Not read the entire thread. I HATE gambling boxes of any form, I think they rely on the frustration of the buyer rather than the quality of the game, and I would personally penalise them under UK gambling laws.
But I am not likely to stop playing this game, it is the only quality recent mmo available...
Yours is a sensible approach as this change will likely have minimal impact to your actual game play.
Most folks saying they are quitting appear to be doing so as it is offending their ethical or moral beliefs over having these items in game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Shit! Not read the entire thread. I HATE gambling boxes of any form, I think they rely on the frustration of the buyer rather than the quality of the game, and I would personally penalise them under UK gambling laws.
But I am not likely to stop playing this game, it is the only quality recent mmo available...
Yours is a sensible approach as this change will likely have minimal impact to your actual game play.
Most folks saying they are quitting appear to be doing so as it is offending their ethical or moral beliefs over having these items in game.
Some may be quitting because of ethical / moral beliefs. Others may be quitting because when the gambling boxes show up in the game its just a change they cant support anymore.
Shit! Not read the entire thread. I HATE gambling boxes of any form, I think they rely on the frustration of the buyer rather than the quality of the game, and I would personally penalise them under UK gambling laws.
But I am not likely to stop playing this game, it is the only quality recent mmo available...
Yours is a sensible approach as this change will likely have minimal impact to your actual game play.
Most folks saying they are quitting appear to be doing so as it is offending their ethical or moral beliefs over having these items in game.
Absolutely. As it stands the boxes will offer people the opportunity to obtain a) "limited time available mounts and costumes" b) super rare cosmetic stuff.
Which won't impact me in the slightest.
Surprised that more people haven't commented about how people will now be able to obtain stuff that was previously marketed as a "limited time availability".
And I wonder what "super rare" means? Option 1: there will only ever be 1,000. And once they are gone they are gone. A limited time offer? Option 2: a small % chance. So "everyone" in the game might be wearing the same super rare item - as long as they have all spent lots of money. So just a super rare chance of getting the item not necessarily a super rare item.
Which is the type of stuff that draws the attention of regulators.
The problem I have with it... is it appeals to those with a compulsive disorder. I seriously dislike gambling boxes in games, because they are clearly not marketed towards the sensible and occasional purchaser, they are geared towards people with no impulse control, and they intend to make money off people with no impulse control.
I find this highly objectionable, to me it is the point where profit takes precedence over decency. It disgusts me. But I am a selfish man, and I will continue playing because it is the ONLY mmo on the market I enjoy.
Maybe it's time I cancelled my subscription that I have held since launch. I'm not very interested in playing games with RNG loot boxes.
then dont buy them. Are cosmetics and skins in that game so important that if someone has one they got from a slot machine it will ruin the experience of the people around them?
I thought looks and what armor looked 'cool' dies out a long time ago, in fact the only two games I can think of where it was a major deal was GW 1 and WoW, maybe Lotro before they started having about a million different clothing items in that game. And all those games are basically a decade or more old.
I was a critic of them selling the Imperial edition and what it gave and thought it was just the first step, but now about two years later they arent blatantly selling anything remotely pay to win shows they probably wont. Because they dont have to. Maybe this is a test to see how RNG sales go and at 'worst' they sell different 'degrees/tiers' of them for a range of prices which have 'better' looking stuff in them.
I'm really not into having this RNG crap in my gaming. I don't like it and I don't want to support companies that do it. IMHO this type of business model has done nothing but put a big brown shit stain on MMORPG's.
Lost a lot of respect for Zenimax/Bethesda over this.
I'll spend my money elsewhere and I'll politely let them know why.
Shit! Not read the entire thread. I HATE gambling boxes of any form, I think they rely on the frustration of the buyer rather than the quality of the game, and I would personally penalise them under UK gambling laws.
But I am not likely to stop playing this game, it is the only quality recent mmo available...
Yours is a sensible approach as this change will likely have minimal impact to your actual game play.
Most folks saying they are quitting appear to be doing so as it is offending their ethical or moral beliefs over having these items in game.
Shit! Not read the entire thread. I HATE gambling boxes of any form, I think they rely on the frustration of the buyer rather than the quality of the game, and I would personally penalise them under UK gambling laws.
But I am not likely to stop playing this game, it is the only quality recent mmo available...
Yours is a sensible approach as this change will likely have minimal impact to your actual game play.
Most folks saying they are quitting appear to be doing so as it is offending their ethical or moral beliefs over having these items in game.
For me it's more a question of "what's next?"
Just a bad mechanic in a "role playing game"
IMHO of course.
I agree with you, I'd rather not see this mechanic added to any game I play, but they just didn't ask me for approval, go figure.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Wonder how long it will take before some parent sues them for promoting gambling because their kid got their credit card and ran up a couple thousand dollars trying to get that one thing.
Wonder how long it will take before some parent sues them for promoting gambling because their kid got their credit card and ran up a couple thousand dollars trying to get that one thing.
The parent would be blamed for not controlling their child.
Sometimes it's not always about what you can see or hear but what's under the hood of a game that's most impressive. Between those thousands and thousands of lines of code, magic happens. Sometimes the most amazing feats of gaming wizardry happen without you even noticing.
Torval said: We're throwing around the word gambling pretty loosely. There is a huge difference between gambling for money in a casino and playing for entertainment. Someone can run up a credit card through online purchases for anything, it doesn't have to be "gambling".
Not just that, like I pointed out it includes any raffle, lottery, betting, etc.
It is just hypocrisy used to manipulate masses, gain power.
Like the guy above mentioning UK gambling law - UK, a country with strong tradition in sport betting....
Torval said: We're throwing around the word gambling pretty loosely. There is a huge difference between gambling for money in a casino and playing for entertainment. Someone can run up a credit card through online purchases for anything, it doesn't have to be "gambling".
Not just that, like I pointed out it includes any raffle, lottery, betting, etc.
It is just hypocrisy used to manipulate masses, gain power.
Like the guy above mentioning UK gambling law - UK, a country with strong tradition in sport betting....
Gambling in the UK requires a gambling permit and explicitly cannot target children.... gambling defined as "a game of chance for a prize". UK law.
The difference is that you can spend money over and over again indefinitely. In the case of an RNG timesink, you aren't able to do that.
I can't think of one single person that can spend all they want indefinitely. Both resources are finite. Both have value. They are not equivalent in value.
You're right, at some point credit cards will be maxed and no one will loan them money anymore. When someone pays a one time fee to access a game, they are not susceptible to this behavior in the same way. I am just trying to explain to you the difference between the two since you went on about not being able to see it. Well, there is a difference.
I honestly don't know why you are talking about equivalent value.
Torval said: We're throwing around the word gambling pretty loosely. There is a huge difference between gambling for money in a casino and playing for entertainment. Someone can run up a credit card through online purchases for anything, it doesn't have to be "gambling".
Not just that, like I pointed out it includes any raffle, lottery, betting, etc.
It is just hypocrisy used to manipulate masses, gain power.
Like the guy above mentioning UK gambling law - UK, a country with strong tradition in sport betting....
Gambling in the UK requires a gambling permit and explicitly cannot target children.... gambling defined as "a game of chance for a prize". UK law.
Pretty much every online game that charges would fall under this. Pay a monthly fee for a chance at the loot pinata (boss drop). Pay a one time fee for a chance at the loot pinata (loot box). Does that law, or US laws or EU laws, take into account the kind of prize and its value in regulating?
In any event, I am a big supporter of the premise that all companies should have to publish their odds sheets. This should encompass lock/loot boxes, RNG chances at raid and boss loot, etc. They should be forthcoming about how they're building time and content sinks and how it could end up costing you more.
To me it is not really a moral dilemma and I see no actual difference between selling a one off loot box to generate revenue than I do RNG time sinks to keep players paying the recurring fee (sub).
I think it is degrees of separation with regard to your first paragraph... i.e. with gambling boxes you are directly exchanging money for the chance to win a prize.
Your second paragraph I agree with entirely.
It is a bit of a moral dilemma for me (and i don't mean to soap box), but it is preying on people with poor impulse control, and that bothers me. However, I also think that people should be allowed to take some personal responsibility and be allowed the freedom to f-up. I am slightly torn on the issue.
The difference is that you can spend money over and over again indefinitely. In the case of an RNG timesink, you aren't able to do that.
I can't think of one single person that can spend all they want indefinitely. Both resources are finite. Both have value. They are not equivalent in value.
You're right, at some point credit cards will be maxed and no one will loan them money anymore. When someone pays a one time fee to access a game, they are not susceptible to this behavior in the same way. I am just trying to explain to you the difference between the two since you went on about not being able to see it. Well, there is a difference.
I honestly don't know why you are talking about equivalent value.
I don't think you explained how they're unrelated at all. I'm not saying I can't understand a difference between the two. I'm asserting there is no difference between selling a one off RNG loot box and selling a RNG chance at loot drop from a recurring sub. They're both selling a chance at an RNG payoff. They're just doing it different ways.
There is a maximum income most, or all, people deal with. You don't have to max credit cards to understand your monthly spending limit. Credit is only one part of the entire monthly income/expense cycle.
First how often do people pay a one off fee to access an MMO? We're talking about MMOs here. Even "B2P" games have additional revenue streams. So pretty much every single mmo and every single player in an mmo is affected by this.
So there is not a difference between the selling access to the RNG in different games except their implementation. They all do it. Some ways of selling access might be palatable to you - like a sub. Others may not - loot boxes. But all games do it, else most people wouldn't pay or play unless they thought they could get a chance at the payout.
Selling a $15 subscription is different than offering a gambling box. You are just making the point that spending money, for all things, is the same.
I am saying that gambling boxes are different in that they prey on a certain percentage of people that have difficulty with gambling (and children). And while playing a game where there is RNG for drops (which can be viewed as gambling as well), a sub game doesn't ask a person to pay a fee every time they want to see what dropped.
You are extrapolating really far out and saying that paying a $15 fee once a month to see those drops is the same as a gambling box that you can open as long as you have the funds to. I disagree with that strongly, whether or not I think there are potential dangers for some people and children.
Comments
It's the same thinking that goes behind slots.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
For full disclosure, I've never been a fan of this game. But I often keep my mouth shut. This time... this just seems slimy.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Gambling however............
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I thought looks and what armor looked 'cool' dies out a long time ago, in fact the only two games I can think of where it was a major deal was GW 1 and WoW, maybe Lotro before they started having about a million different clothing items in that game. And all those games are basically a decade or more old.
I was a critic of them selling the Imperial edition and what it gave and thought it was just the first step, but now about two years later they arent blatantly selling anything remotely pay to win shows they probably wont. Because they dont have to. Maybe this is a test to see how RNG sales go and at 'worst' they sell different 'degrees/tiers' of them for a range of prices which have 'better' looking stuff in them.
Also, did you read the reply and provided link by waynejr2..?
With the addition of Gambling boxes I am glad I did. For many people it is not that big of a deal, for people such as myself it assures that I will never play ESO again.
I will say however that I greatly enjoyed my time with the game. The development has just gone in a direction I am not interested in and wont support anymore.
But I am not likely to stop playing this game, it is the only quality recent mmo available...
Most folks saying they are quitting appear to be doing so as it is offending their ethical or moral beliefs over having these items in game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
a) "limited time available mounts and costumes"
b) super rare cosmetic stuff.
Which won't impact me in the slightest.
Surprised that more people haven't commented about how people will now be able to obtain stuff that was previously marketed as a "limited time availability".
And I wonder what "super rare" means?
Option 1: there will only ever be 1,000. And once they are gone they are gone. A limited time offer?
Option 2: a small % chance. So "everyone" in the game might be wearing the same super rare item - as long as they have all spent lots of money. So just a super rare chance of getting the item not necessarily a super rare item.
Which is the type of stuff that draws the attention of regulators.
I find this highly objectionable, to me it is the point where profit takes precedence over decency. It disgusts me. But I am a selfish man, and I will continue playing because it is the ONLY mmo on the market I enjoy.
Lost a lot of respect for Zenimax/Bethesda over this.
I'll spend my money elsewhere and I'll politely let them know why.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Just a bad mechanic in a "role playing game"
IMHO of course.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Rob Manuel
It is just hypocrisy used to manipulate masses, gain power.
Like the guy above mentioning UK gambling law - UK, a country with strong tradition in sport betting....
I honestly don't know why you are talking about equivalent value.
Your second paragraph I agree with entirely.
It is a bit of a moral dilemma for me (and i don't mean to soap box), but it is preying on people with poor impulse control, and that bothers me. However, I also think that people should be allowed to take some personal responsibility and be allowed the freedom to f-up. I am slightly torn on the issue.
I am saying that gambling boxes are different in that they prey on a certain percentage of people that have difficulty with gambling (and children). And while playing a game where there is RNG for drops (which can be viewed as gambling as well), a sub game doesn't ask a person to pay a fee every time they want to see what dropped.
You are extrapolating really far out and saying that paying a $15 fee once a month to see those drops is the same as a gambling box that you can open as long as you have the funds to. I disagree with that strongly, whether or not I think there are potential dangers for some people and children.