Unless they change how they are developing this game it isn't going to last much longer. I won't give them another penny unless they start caring about the players and fix all the major problems.
This game has well over a million players, and most of them pay something every month. I do not think it is going anywhere soon.
This 'gambling box' thing is in several games, and more are doing the same. Apparently it is what the players want, and it is a pretty good cash cow for a lot of games, especially if there are exclusives in the boxes.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
The difference is that you can spend money over and over again indefinitely. In the case of an RNG timesink, you aren't able to do that.
I can't think of one single person that can spend all they want indefinitely. Both resources are finite. Both have value. They are not equivalent in value.
You're right, at some point credit cards will be maxed and no one will loan them money anymore. When someone pays a one time fee to access a game, they are not susceptible to this behavior in the same way. I am just trying to explain to you the difference between the two since you went on about not being able to see it. Well, there is a difference.
I honestly don't know why you are talking about equivalent value.
I don't think you explained how they're unrelated at all. I'm not saying I can't understand a difference between the two. I'm asserting there is no difference between selling a one off RNG loot box and selling a RNG chance at loot drop from a recurring sub. They're both selling a chance at an RNG payoff. They're just doing it different ways.
There is a maximum income most, or all, people deal with. You don't have to max credit cards to understand your monthly spending limit. Credit is only one part of the entire monthly income/expense cycle.
First how often do people pay a one off fee to access an MMO? We're talking about MMOs here. Even "B2P" games have additional revenue streams. So pretty much every single mmo and every single player in an mmo is affected by this.
So there is not a difference between the selling access to the RNG in different games except their implementation. They all do it. Some ways of selling access might be palatable to you - like a sub. Others may not - loot boxes. But all games do it, else most people wouldn't pay or play unless they thought they could get a chance at the payout.
Selling a $15 subscription is different than offering a gambling box. You are just making the point that spending money, for all things, is the same.
I am saying that gambling boxes are different in that they prey on a certain percentage of people that have difficulty with gambling (and children). And while playing a game where there is RNG for drops (which can be viewed as gambling as well), a sub game doesn't ask a person to pay a fee every time they want to see what dropped.
You are extrapolating really far out and saying that paying a $15 fee once a month to see those drops is the same as a gambling box that you can open as long as you have the funds to. I disagree with that strongly, whether or not I think there are potential dangers for some people and children.
It's all just skinner box stuff being packaged and sold in different forms. So yes, spending money for a chance at a reward is the same. A sub game doesn't ask you every time. It asks you every 30 days.
The difference is that one is a single one-off fee that allows for a single chance and the other is "buffet style" where you get a few more chances in a month if you buy the package. Even then with raid and dungeon locks there are only so many chances a player gets to play the scratch-off ticket. You get what 4 chances at the raid loot box per month? In Rift you get 7 something like 7 dungeon tickets per week. In both cases the developer/publisher doesn't want you to get more chances than have been paid for or you won't pay for the next session. That's how mmo devs string us along.
If we're going to "think of the children" then we should review if letting them play video games at all is healthy. I think there are potential dangers far greater than loot boxes.
We are talking about loot boxes right now. No need to go off on a tangent.
Either way, I understand and do not agree with your point. While MMORPGs are definitely very similar to Skinner boxes and these gambling boxes are similar to Skinner boxes, with one there is a $15 a month limit and the other, the limit is as much credit/money as someone can spend.
I am not saying that having a store for a game is bad (i personally don't like them much), I am saying having gambling boxes in a video game is slimy. It offends my senses personally because they could offer the items that come from the box in the store, but instead chose a gambling box.
And this DOES come down to an opinion and our opinions can be different. I'm honestly surprised that you don't see a difference between a sub and a gambling box.
Its not gambling anyway, there is always something in the box, it just might be mundane, but will surely be of a similar 'value' as the price of the box. Gambling has no such guarantee in most cases you win or lose there is no worst,good,better,best association with 'prizes' you have a chance of receiving.
Those citing ethical and moral reasons are awesome. Because none of them 'killed' another person in PvP.
Now obviously people with severe issues might spend too much, but its another adage I heard a long time ago about people with those weaknesses that it isnt up to the game or the developer to be their moral compass and if theyre willing to spend it there they will be willing to spend it somewhere else.
The only major problem I have with it is that the people who justify it are also trying to equate a real world monetary value to it as well. I do not. They have no value IMO. But those buying the boxes kid themselves into thinking they do as a way to justify it.
Now if they sold the boxes AND allowed people to sell the items to other player for real world money then it would be a slippery slope. Even though it still wouldnt be pay to win it would allow real world money transactions between players and some people would definitely use it to gain money and more than likely from selling goods from boxes they bought with stolen money i.e. credit and debit cards.
But as it is I dont see a major problem, it surely isnt going to effect anyone in anyway other than the people on a high horse claim morality issues. Its just like everything else they sell you can choose to buy them or not. If you never use the store and no one ever said anything about it you wouldnt even know they existed, thats how meaningless they truly are.
What was the first instance of RNG loot boxes tied to a cash shops in mmorpgs? What was the first instance of it in general gaming?
I tend to associate this with casual FB gaming. Am I wrong about that?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
hilarious video about archeage that actually shows the problem with having these "gamble boxes", they are scamming people for the most amount of money possible rather than just selling the stuff for a set amount in the cash shop.
it's easy to say just dont buy them and personally i dont. but then again it's easy to say not to fall for scams in the real world as well, yet people still do and that doesn't make it right.
I sent customer support a message. I know it doesn't mean much unless many more show their displeasure with their wallets. If the RNG comes into being I'll move on to something else. Dark and Light looks interesting but I won't hold my breath on that game's business model.
I'm very disheartened to see that Zenimax has announced the coming of RNG loot boxes to the game. I believe in supporting good games with respectable business models and I have supported ESO since launch with my subscription, not to mention pretty much every Bethesda title since the Terminator and Wayne Gretzky Hockey. I find the addition of RNG to the game to be very distasteful and I will no longer be able to support the game with my subscription if this monetization model comes into being.
I truly hope by the time my subscription comes up for renewal, that your company reconsiders this decision.
I sent customer support a message. I know it doesn't mean much unless many more show their displeasure with their wallets. If the RNG comes into being I'll move on to something else. Dark and Light looks interesting but I won't hold my breath on that game's business model.
I'm very disheartened to see that Zenimax has announced the coming of RNG loot boxes to the game. I believe in supporting good games with respectable business models and I have supported ESO since launch with my subscription, not to mention pretty much every Bethesda title since the Terminator and Wayne Gretzky Hockey. I find the addition of RNG to the game to be very distasteful and I will no longer be able to support the game with my subscription if this monetization model comes into being.
I truly hope by the time my subscription comes up for renewal, that your company reconsiders this decision.
Sincerely
xxxxx xxxxxx
Gretzky hockey lol... that was my first Bethesda game
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
What was the first instance of RNG loot boxes tied to a cash shops in mmorpgs? What was the first instance of it in general gaming?
I tend to associate this with casual FB gaming. Am I wrong about that?
I always assumed it was a practice the genre picked up from either those games or mobile games. It would be interesting to see a timeline and see exactly where the idea got started.
What was the first instance of RNG loot boxes tied to a cash shops in mmorpgs? What was the first instance of it in general gaming?
I tend to associate this with casual FB gaming. Am I wrong about that?
I always assumed it was a practice the genre picked up from either those games or mobile games. It would be interesting to see a timeline and see exactly where the idea got started.
Yeah it's so intimately tied with freemium MMOs now that I really can't remember if they came first or if FB or the Apple AP store mobile games did it first.
I googled around and couldn't really find anything. One thing I do know, the youngest players among us grew up with this. I doubt they see it as anything other than "business as usual."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
What was the first instance of RNG loot boxes tied to a cash shops in mmorpgs? What was the first instance of it in general gaming?
I tend to associate this with casual FB gaming. Am I wrong about that?
I always assumed it was a practice the genre picked up from either those games or mobile games. It would be interesting to see a timeline and see exactly where the idea got started.
Yeah it's so intimately tied with freemium MMOs now that I really can't remember if they came first or if FB or the Apple AP store mobile games did it first.
I googled around and couldn't really find anything. One thing I do know, the youngest players among us grew up with this. I doubt they see it as anything other than "business as usual."
the first one i have ever seen was SWTOR but i doubt it was the first.
Gambling Boxes are garbage personally IMO players should quit any game doing this crap, there is a reason why certain countries banned "Gacha" also know as pay "X" amount of money and get "X Random Item" Because its "Gambling" Just bypasses gambling laws due to the fact you get something every time which imo is a Loop Hole even though a lot say its not...
Cosmetics or not RNG boxes should never exist in games just because others do it a reason why even if ESO still worked properly I wouldn't go back to it.
If they are dead set on RNG boxes then they should look at Path of Exile's implementation of them.
Have everything in the RNG box eventually come out in the store ( and by that I mean announce the date they will be available in the same announcement of the RNG box)
so either pay less and spin the wheel and maybe get what you want now, or wait till its more expensive but a sure thing.
First time I saw RNG boxes in MMOs was Granado Espada, I think. I'm not sure if Facebook gaming was even a thing yet (was Farmville around back then either? I forget).
I won´t...but i HATE when they lock awesome loot behind them. I know they need to get money somehow...but gambling boxes sucks. It´s lazy and expensive! And you won´t get that awesome loot even paying a sub so it sucks double!
It's not lazy at all, they do it on purpose because people will want "a look" and think, "well, one more".
It's the same thinking that goes behind slots.
They definitely do it on purpose because people think, "well, one more." Perhaps until their credit is maxed. Gambling has that effect on a certain percentage of people. And they know it. Which is why this has given some people, that believe a 1-off purchase would be favorable, pause.
For full disclosure, I've never been a fan of this game. But I often keep my mouth shut. This time... this just seems slimy.
To be fair that does mean it's not really lazy. It's exploitative.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I sent customer support a message. I know it doesn't mean much unless many more show their displeasure with their wallets. If the RNG comes into being I'll move on to something else. Dark and Light looks interesting but I won't hold my breath on that game's business model.
I'm very disheartened to see that Zenimax has announced the coming of RNG loot boxes to the game. I believe in supporting good games with respectable business models and I have supported ESO since launch with my subscription, not to mention pretty much every Bethesda title since the Terminator and Wayne Gretzky Hockey. I find the addition of RNG to the game to be very distasteful and I will no longer be able to support the game with my subscription if this monetization model comes into being.
I truly hope by the time my subscription comes up for renewal, that your company reconsiders this decision.
Sincerely
xxxxx xxxxxx
Gretzky hockey lol... that was my first Bethesda game
My favorite hockey game to date loved the fact you just played your position.
I always wondered what the heck they were thinking when they made Wayne Gretzky Hockey 2
If they are dead set on RNG boxes then they should look at Path of Exile's implementation of them.
Have everything in the RNG box eventually come out in the store ( and by that I mean announce the date they will be available in the same announcement of the RNG box)
so either pay less and spin the wheel and maybe get what you want now, or wait till its more expensive but a sure thing.
From what they've said some of what will be in the boxes had already been in the store at some point but are no longer available. I think some people might be worried they will put exclusive motifs in them. The mounts and pets were already exclusive.
Around 8:35 of the video in my first post "We're also going to add some super rare mounts that you can only get in these." So yeah, they're going there.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I sent customer support a message. I know it doesn't mean much unless many more show their displeasure with their wallets. If the RNG comes into being I'll move on to something else. Dark and Light looks interesting but I won't hold my breath on that game's business model.
I'm very disheartened to see that Zenimax has announced the coming of RNG loot boxes to the game. I believe in supporting good games with respectable business models and I have supported ESO since launch with my subscription, not to mention pretty much every Bethesda title since the Terminator and Wayne Gretzky Hockey. I find the addition of RNG to the game to be very distasteful and I will no longer be able to support the game with my subscription if this monetization model comes into being.
I truly hope by the time my subscription comes up for renewal, that your company reconsiders this decision.
Sincerely
xxxxx xxxxxx
Gretzky hockey lol... that was my first Bethesda game
My favorite hockey game to date loved the fact you just played your position.
I always wondered what the heck they were thinking when they made Wayne Gretzky Hockey 2
My son and I have been playing the EA NHL series for two decades. It's still one of the things we do when we get together now. We always play co-op against the computer (as Canucks of course) and I position lock myself as C and he plays LW. Co-op is awesome when we manage to find each other... especially when it's Hank and Dank
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Not good, due to their introduction I have decided not to renew my sub. Boxes seem fine in a cheap n nasty game like NEVERWINTER but in ESO..damn sham.
If they are dead set on RNG boxes then they should look at Path of Exile's implementation of them.
Have everything in the RNG box eventually come out in the store ( and by that I mean announce the date they will be available in the same announcement of the RNG box)
so either pay less and spin the wheel and maybe get what you want now, or wait till its more expensive but a sure thing.
From what they've said some of what will be in the boxes had already been in the store at some point but are no longer available. I think some people might be worried they will put exclusive motifs in them. The mounts and pets were already exclusive.
Around 8:35 of the video in my first post "We're also going to add some super rare mounts that you can only get in these." So yeah, they're going there.
They've already gone there with super rare mounts/pets you can only get in the cash shop for a limited window of time.
For a known set price... which was what @sayuu was suggesting as the better way POE does it: the loot box chance to get it first for those who want to gamble and the knowing exactly what you're buying, even if you get it later, for those who don't.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The sad part of this is that I respected and was hoping ESO's original B2P model was viable. It seems that it's not the case.
I'm left wondering about their Quarterly content updates. I guess we'll have to see how that pans out now. Current events leaves me without much faith in that department.
I'd really love to be a fly on the wall when these types of conversations are being discussed and decided upon.
Seems like MMORPG's are too closely associated with Gumball machines these days.
The sad part of this is that I respected and was hoping ESO's original B2P model was viable. It seems that it's not the case.
I'm left wondering about their Quarterly content updates. I guess we'll have to see how that pans out now. Current events leaves me without much faith in that department.
I'd really love to be a fly on the wall when these types of conversations are being discussed and decided upon.
Seems like MMORPG's are too closely associated with Gumball machines these days.
As I already posted in the official forums, I'm sure the decision makers at ZOS had all of these discussions and touched on a lot of the same points made in this thread weeks or months ago. I'm also willing to bet that there isn't 100% agreement within the company about this being a cool way to monetize.
The shit-storm it has caused in their forums (36K views, 1.3K posts, 56 pages and 2/3 against) I'm sure was fully expected.
And I'm also sure their bean counters have done the math and expect to make more money this way regardless of how many actually leave because they find this too objectionable or tacky.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's an effective way to bait whales, since the payout for desired goods from lockboxes in most games is higher than the general cost you can expect to sell any individual item for, but on a per-box basis relatively cheap, it offers many a high incentive upfront to try and open them while realistically costing more long-term. If things like keys can be bought and traded within the game, that develops an economy unto it's own as well.
So for the most part it a tool to make money off anyone you can treat like a whale.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
You see in my honest opinion there are far too few good games for people to simply just walk away from a game they enjoy in general. I am not talking about the ones that are very firm about their departure but generally if something does not affect you greatly most folk even if they might say vehemently on the forums one thing if their friends or significant others still play chances are they will continue too.
This is human nature that the more you discuss something and the more often your incredulity is tested you become more accepting and over time people come back and this is what the companies are banking on that the numbers leaving will not be significant. Lots of dogs bark but not all of them bite.
Comments
This 'gambling box' thing is in several games, and more are doing the same. Apparently it is what the players want, and it is a pretty good cash cow for a lot of games, especially if there are exclusives in the boxes.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
Either way, I understand and do not agree with your point. While MMORPGs are definitely very similar to Skinner boxes and these gambling boxes are similar to Skinner boxes, with one there is a $15 a month limit and the other, the limit is as much credit/money as someone can spend.
I am not saying that having a store for a game is bad (i personally don't like them much), I am saying having gambling boxes in a video game is slimy. It offends my senses personally because they could offer the items that come from the box in the store, but instead chose a gambling box.
And this DOES come down to an opinion and our opinions can be different. I'm honestly surprised that you don't see a difference between a sub and a gambling box.
Those citing ethical and moral reasons are awesome. Because none of them 'killed' another person in PvP.
Now obviously people with severe issues might spend too much, but its another adage I heard a long time ago about people with those weaknesses that it isnt up to the game or the developer to be their moral compass and if theyre willing to spend it there they will be willing to spend it somewhere else.
The only major problem I have with it is that the people who justify it are also trying to equate a real world monetary value to it as well. I do not. They have no value IMO. But those buying the boxes kid themselves into thinking they do as a way to justify it.
Now if they sold the boxes AND allowed people to sell the items to other player for real world money then it would be a slippery slope. Even though it still wouldnt be pay to win it would allow real world money transactions between players and some people would definitely use it to gain money and more than likely from selling goods from boxes they bought with stolen money i.e. credit and debit cards.
But as it is I dont see a major problem, it surely isnt going to effect anyone in anyway other than the people on a high horse claim morality issues. Its just like everything else they sell you can choose to buy them or not. If you never use the store and no one ever said anything about it you wouldnt even know they existed, thats how meaningless they truly are.
What was the first instance of RNG loot boxes tied to a cash shops in mmorpgs? What was the first instance of it in general gaming?
I tend to associate this with casual FB gaming. Am I wrong about that?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
hilarious video about archeage that actually shows the problem with having these "gamble boxes", they are scamming people for the most amount of money possible rather than just selling the stuff for a set amount in the cash shop.
it's easy to say just dont buy them and personally i dont. but then again it's easy to say not to fall for scams in the real world as well, yet people still do and that doesn't make it right.
I'm very disheartened to see that Zenimax has announced the coming of RNG loot boxes to the game. I believe in supporting good games with respectable business models and I have supported ESO since launch with my subscription, not to mention pretty much every Bethesda title since the Terminator and Wayne Gretzky Hockey. I find the addition of RNG to the game to be very distasteful and I will no longer be able to support the game with my subscription if this monetization model comes into being.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I googled around and couldn't really find anything. One thing I do know, the youngest players among us grew up with this. I doubt they see it as anything other than "business as usual."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Cosmetics or not RNG boxes should never exist in games just because others do it a reason why even if ESO still worked properly I wouldn't go back to it.
Have everything in the RNG box eventually come out in the store ( and by that I mean announce the date they will be available in the same announcement of the RNG box)
so either pay less and spin the wheel and maybe get what you want now, or wait till its more expensive but a sure thing.
...it sucked!
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I always wondered what the heck they were thinking when they made Wayne Gretzky Hockey 2
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I'm left wondering about their Quarterly content updates. I guess we'll have to see how that pans out now. Current events leaves me without much faith in that department.
I'd really love to be a fly on the wall when these types of conversations are being discussed and decided upon.
Seems like MMORPG's are too closely associated with Gumball machines these days.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
The shit-storm it has caused in their forums (36K views, 1.3K posts, 56 pages and 2/3 against) I'm sure was fully expected.
And I'm also sure their bean counters have done the math and expect to make more money this way regardless of how many actually leave because they find this too objectionable or tacky.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
So for the most part it a tool to make money off anyone you can treat like a whale.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
This is human nature that the more you discuss something and the more often your incredulity is tested you become more accepting and over time people come back and this is what the companies are banking on that the numbers leaving will not be significant. Lots of dogs bark but not all of them bite.
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