I don't really care if loot boxes are in a game or not, however I don't really like the gambling aspect of it in video games that kids play. I feel like it's not something that kids should have pushed on them, and in a lot of cases the games really do push it on them. I don't know, it just seems morally wrong to me. If it's just adults, no problem, but not in video games that kids play. If adults want to go bankrupt gambling away their money, that's one thing, but kids don't need to be introduced that sort of vice in a video game.
Being purposely obtuse is not constructive either. My point, as I'm sure you well know, is that people go in and rain on other's fun without either having tried a game ever, or only for a limited time.
It's not the purpose to kvetch about games simply because you don't like them or the state of the genre. To run into, for example, a SWTOR thread and say, "THIS GAME SUXXOR!" just because you're personally dissatisfied with the genre as a whole is neither productive or warranted.
There are other, better avenues to affect change without going into every thread on any given game you (in the universal sense) don't like just because you "can".
Nice save there Suzie. That sounds much better than your first response of "stop complaining about games you don't like. If you don't like them, move on and keep your trap shut".
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Hello, Bill. Let's say we were playing Dungeons & Dragons on a tabletop. As we're playing, the DM offers to individually increase everyone's health and stats as long as they keep slipping him a 20 dollar bill. Would you find this to be fun? Is it fair to players who don't have the money?
Using your own analogy, imagine one of the usual D&D crew arrives late because they had to work. They ask if they can enter the game at the same point everyone is up to, and say they will buy everyone pizza as as a thank you.
What you are missing is that MMO's offer cash shop alternatives to cater to a wider market. MMO's typically take a lot of time to progress through, meaning the only people who progress through quickly are those with a lot of time on their hands, who by association don't have a lot of money.
By the same logic, who do you think has the money to blow on meaningless crap and XP boosters in games? Correct, people who work. It really isn't that hard to figure out.
People get so bent out of shape that they spent so long earning their items in games and someone just buys them, but forget that while you were skipping around Azeroth for 17 hours straight the other poor bastard was likely sleeping or at work.
Hello, Bill. Let's say we were playing Dungeons & Dragons on a tabletop. As we're playing, the DM offers to individually increase everyone's health and stats as long as they keep slipping him a 20 dollar bill. Would you find this to be fun? Is it fair to players who don't have the money?
Using your own analogy, imagine one of the usual D&D crew arrives late because they had to work. They ask if they can enter the game at the same point everyone is up to, and say they will buy everyone pizza as as a thank you.
What you are missing is that MMO's offer cash shop alternatives to cater to a wider market. MMO's typically take a lot of time to progress through, meaning the only people who progress through quickly are those with a lot of time on their hands, who by association don't have a lot of money.
By the same logic, who do you think has the money to blow on meaningless crap and XP boosters in games? Correct, people who work. It really isn't that hard to figure out.
People get so bent out of shape that they spent so long earning their items in games and someone just buys them, but forget that while you were skipping around Azeroth for 17 hours straight the other poor bastard was likely sleeping or at work.
Except your assuming aggressive vertical progression and the need to 'be at the top'... not sure how your D&D sessions were run, but ours were far more about the adventure than the stats, and if someone had a lower level character then the DM compensated (e.g. threw in a few low level goblins with the high level chief).
Now granted most MMOs aren't like this, but that's just poor / lazy design (usually based on a time consuming grind designed to be 'pay to skip'), which is something that should definitely be complained about.
5) I have to disagree. Lockboxes are gambling. If there was a way to turn them off in the options menu so you don't even pick them up then I wouldn't mind them. If you could sell them for a decent price (to an NPC or auction house) then they'd be less annoying.
4) Agreed
3) The definition of P2W varies by person so who's to say which one is right. If someone thinks paying money gives an unfair advantage then that's their opinion. Just qualify how it does so and we'll be fine.
2) Agreed
1) Agreed, look up what the word "censored" means. How about as a compromise let people pick which localisations they want. Heck, let them pick their own background music from their own computer too. Options people! Give us options!
This is the best possible response I could give to this clickbait-shit of an article.
I do not generally agree with Jim Sterling to be honest. I think he blows things out of proportion too often. For views I'm sure. I played through Assassin's Creed Syndicate twice and love the game and never ever felt the need to pay for anything. He goes on and on about it being terrible for the game. I think it is the best AC game made. Same thing he went on and on about MGSV. I never felt the need to pay anything and spent 70 hours in that game. I think it is the best MGS game ever made. He constantly lashes out at companies creating ways to generate additional income. Sure there is price gauging in the industry but not everything in gaming is there for the sake of gauging. If the microtransactions do not affect gameplay. If you can have a complete experience without them it is not gauging. It is called options and/or convenience. The price of games have not changed in over 20 years. Literally. Production costs have continued to climb and climb yet the price of games have not. Something needs to give and if the inclusion of a 'does not affect the game or gameplay in any way' microtransaction exists? So be it. $60 is not a lot of money for a game in 2016. N64 games cost the same or more than that. In 1996. So to Jim I will quote you: "Get over it"
I enjoy his rants... and he'd be the first one to admit that he does go on.
Besides, just when you think avarice has been maxed, they come up with new twists as with the Deus Ex pre-order scheme that got laughed out of the internet to the point they had to cancel it.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I enjoy his rants... and he'd be the first one to admit that he does go on.
Besides, just when you think avarice has been maxed, they come up with new twists as with the Deus Ex pre-order scheme that got laughed out of the internet to the point they had to cancel it.
What makes it worse? I beat that game in 10.5 hours
Sad length yeah. I've held off buying it but it's hypr did get me back into playing and enjoying Human Revolution.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Agree with everything but number five. Lootboxes are gambling and gambling is age restricted. If you have real money (cash shop) gambling, your game should be age restricted with age verification and a gambling permit.
As someone whom had a family member struggling with a gambling addiction and witnessing first hand how it can ruin a life, I am very against gambling.
I respect your opinion Bill Murphy, however I still completely disagree with what they did to Black Desert. If it was F2P, then sure, whatever, but since 98% of that game is based around the endgame pvp, paying your way to progress in power, no matter how small, is still a seriously unfair advantage.
Sticking up for a company like this will not help the MMO community in any way shape or form, we are only falling deeper into what we force ourselves to find "Acceptable". Never have I felt more disappointment in any single company than them.
This list is bad for the most part. No real need to try to dig into MMORPG.com business practices to make the point.
The reason it's bad is because most of the points were generalizations with no attempt made to show how any pattern or incidents justify the stereotype. Perhaps I'm a little misguided to expect this much from the main guy for this website. If I didn't pay attention I would have assumed it was written by some random forum poster with no journalistic responsibility to the site, or perhaps that's was the intended effect.
Look I can do it too:
1. MMORPG writers should stop writing click bait articles with unjustified generalizations about it's audience.
^ Nevermind the fact this might be an isolated incident, the other writers don't do it, and I actually want a lot of people to read this so I can get some LOLs, Awesomes, and Agrees (I prefer LOLs please).
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
I enjoy his rants... and he'd be the first one to admit that he does go on.
Besides, just when you think avarice has been maxed, they come up with new twists as with the Deus Ex pre-order scheme that got laughed out of the internet to the point they had to cancel it.
What makes it worse? I beat that game in 10.5 hours
Sad length yeah. I've held off buying it but it's hypr did get me back into playing and enjoying Human Revolution.
Eh, the length didn't bother me much. Human Revolution wasn't much longer, and the original Deus Ex (as much as I loved it) was only "bigger" because of how bare bones the game world can be. At least with Divided we have the chance for more story DLC later since they kept a shitload of story threads open. The cliffhanger ending burned my tits more than the length of the game did.
But it that's just my opinion. After finally completing the Witcher, everything seems short in comparison anyways lol
Oh look! Justin Olivetti (Senior Reporter at Massively) whose 2012 article about lockboxes I linked way back on page 6 of this thread wrote a blog yesterday about Bill's article:
When an MMO news/opinion site that takes in ad revenue (not to mention “sponsored content”) from studios, you don’t really want to give the impression that you’re so far away from criticizing these studios that you’re trying to squelch the community for griping. Appearances matter.
Don’t ever, ever tell me what’s OK for me to complain about or not. That’s condescending and hypocritical coming from a site that criticizes and, yes, sometimes complains about games. I have the right to complain about whatever I want. You have the right not to listen to it.
I get the sentiment that players tend to whine a little too much and beat dead horses without adding anything new to the conversation. But that doesn’t mean that these topics are now off-limits. Instead, guide the community to producing constructive criticism and tone down the rhetoric and knee-jerk emotional responses a bit.
If an MMO news site isn’t being a watchdog against studios’ gross tactics, then why are you berating the community for taking up that slack? Lockboxes and pay-to-win sales are very controversial and, in the eyes of many, have damaged otherwise great games’ reputations. This is pertinent and should be debated.
You really do not get to write a list telling players that they shouldn’t complain and then counter every negative response to said list with, “See? A complaint! Stop it!”
He's a bit of the burnt pot calling the kettle black isn't he; the the senior "reporter" for a failed internet gaming site that panders to gamers for ad clicks. He's the co-dependent enabler of the perpetually disenfranchised emo hipster.
His response is an appeal to emotion based on this premise that helpless gamers need hard hitting journalists with integrity to keep them safe from the "studios' gross tactics". For a moment I thought he was going to end his rant with 'Murica Hell Yah!
I don't know man. I always liked that old thing about glass houses... if you're going to tell someone to STFU because he's ranting about something you're apathetic about, watch out next time you show passion about something because you can bet your ass someone is going to call you on it.
And yeah, he's not a writer from this site so fair game I guess.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I enjoy his rants... and he'd be the first one to admit that he does go on.
Besides, just when you think avarice has been maxed, they come up with new twists as with the Deus Ex pre-order scheme that got laughed out of the internet to the point they had to cancel it.
What makes it worse? I beat that game in 10.5 hours
Sad length yeah. I've held off buying it but it's hypr did get me back into playing and enjoying Human Revolution.
Eh, the length didn't bother me much. Human Revolution wasn't much longer, and the original Deus Ex (as much as I loved it) was only "bigger" because of how bare bones the game world can be. At least with Divided we have the chance for more story DLC later since they kept a shitload of story threads open. The cliffhanger ending burned my tits more than the length of the game did.
But it that's just my opinion. After finally completing the Witcher, everything seems short in comparison anyways lol
Lol. I still haven't finished Witcher 3. It's on my "to do" list...honestly
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Oh look! Justin Olivetti (Senior Reporter at Massively) whose 2012 article about lockboxes I linked way back on page 6 of this thread wrote a blog yesterday about Bill's article:
When an MMO news/opinion site that takes in ad revenue (not to mention “sponsored content”) from studios, you don’t really want to give the impression that you’re so far away from criticizing these studios that you’re trying to squelch the community for griping. Appearances matter.
Don’t ever, ever tell me what’s OK for me to complain about or not. That’s condescending and hypocritical coming from a site that criticizes and, yes, sometimes complains about games. I have the right to complain about whatever I want. You have the right not to listen to it.
I get the sentiment that players tend to whine a little too much and beat dead horses without adding anything new to the conversation. But that doesn’t mean that these topics are now off-limits. Instead, guide the community to producing constructive criticism and tone down the rhetoric and knee-jerk emotional responses a bit.
If an MMO news site isn’t being a watchdog against studios’ gross tactics, then why are you berating the community for taking up that slack? Lockboxes and pay-to-win sales are very controversial and, in the eyes of many, have damaged otherwise great games’ reputations. This is pertinent and should be debated.
You really do not get to write a list telling players that they shouldn’t complain and then counter every negative response to said list with, “See? A complaint! Stop it!”
He's a bit of the burnt pot calling the kettle black isn't he; the the senior "reporter" for a failed internet gaming site that panders to gamers for ad clicks. He's the co-dependent enabler of the perpetually disenfranchised emo hipster.
Really, Torval? I can understand your buttons being pushed on this issue because you've been a long time free-to-play proponent, but I can't believe you thought this blatant ad hom attack was worthy of posting. And I'm just shaking my head here: 'perpetually disenfranchised emo hipster.' wtf?
His response is an appeal to emotion based on this premise that helpless gamers need hard hitting journalists with integrity to keep them safe from the "studios' gross tactics". For a moment I thought he was going to end his rant with 'Murica Hell Yah!
It's his opinion on a topic he believes to be important. That he's passionate should not diminish the good reasoning he applies in his response, whether you can agree with him or not. It's as if you feel like caring about an issue actually somehow obliterates your legitimacy in a discussion, though clearly we'd all be rendered intellectually paralyzed if it were so.
This isn't about keeping us safe, Torval. It's about promoting and allowing open discussion and awareness to even just exist, and it's about applying a critical view for the sake of enlightened understanding of complicated matters and possible outcomes.
It's funny that this article was on the surface about specific complaints, and yet somehow there's a subtext that is being read where the article is actually about complaints generally. I mean we get it already. Some people suck at making reasonable and respectful arguments. So let's fucking ignore those people and move on to the good and smart critics and commentators like Iselin, Sovrath, and many others including usually you too, Torval.
Been following this site for a number of years; reading articles, using it to find games to play. Can safely say this will be my last visit it as its clear my values to not line up with the sites journalistic views.
I think part of the problem with discussing this is that, as usual, everyone is carrying around a different definition of what complaining is and what it means. To me, it is pejorative. It is the rotten side of criticism. But I think to many, criticism and complaining are equivalent.
If I were to say I think the combat is sluggish and unresponsive in X game, I would view that as criticism and an opinion. I think many would view it as complaining - and I'm not sure that they are wrong. Complaining to me at least looks more like when someone makes a thread that says that MMOs are doomed or about how all themeparks are for babies or some other nondescript, nebulous complaint. It is more of an emotional response than a logical one.
So maybe I view complaining as more generalized and criticism more specific. I'm not sure that is the right way to view it. I know that I have definitely complained myself in the past. But I think if people were to stay specific with their "complaint," and as long as they support that complaint with a solid argument or some solid evidence, then I think it is a valid way to go about business on a forum. This is obviously not always the case though and when it is not the case, it comes off as complaining to me at least.
I'll just say that the response to this article by Massively was spot on. And even though I believe that individually and personally, people would be better off by moving on and just not giving their money to games that engage in practices that offend them, there is also room to criticize.
I think this article required a descent rebuttal. And as you can see, there are a lot of rebuttals in this thread. I think the rebuttal by Massively was spot on in almost all respects and was happy to see a decent criticism of it.
Been following this site for a number of years; reading articles, using it to find games to play. Can safely say this will be my last visit it as its clear my values to not line up with the sites journalistic views.
Comments
Using your own analogy, imagine one of the usual D&D crew arrives late because they had to work. They ask if they can enter the game at the same point everyone is up to, and say they will buy everyone pizza as as a thank you.
What you are missing is that MMO's offer cash shop alternatives to cater to a wider market. MMO's typically take a lot of time to progress through, meaning the only people who progress through quickly are those with a lot of time on their hands, who by association don't have a lot of money.
By the same logic, who do you think has the money to blow on meaningless crap and XP boosters in games? Correct, people who work. It really isn't that hard to figure out.
People get so bent out of shape that they spent so long earning their items in games and someone just buys them, but forget that while you were skipping around Azeroth for 17 hours straight the other poor bastard was likely sleeping or at work.
Now granted most MMOs aren't like this, but that's just poor / lazy design (usually based on a time consuming grind designed to be 'pay to skip'), which is something that should definitely be complained about.
5) I have to disagree. Lockboxes are gambling. If there was a way to turn them off in the options menu so you don't even pick them up then I wouldn't mind them. If you could sell them for a decent price (to an NPC or auction house) then they'd be less annoying.
4) Agreed
3) The definition of P2W varies by person so who's to say which one is right. If someone thinks paying money gives an unfair advantage then that's their opinion. Just qualify how it does so and we'll be fine.
2) Agreed
1) Agreed, look up what the word "censored" means. How about as a compromise let people pick which localisations they want. Heck, let them pick their own background music from their own computer too. Options people! Give us options!
QR Code: http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?chs=200x200&cht=qr&chld=M&chl=http://tyn.ee/PlayDevilianOnline
I call this the "Trump Tactic". Say something crazy and it gets people talking.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Besides, just when you think avarice has been maxed, they come up with new twists as with the Deus Ex pre-order scheme that got laughed out of the internet to the point they had to cancel it.
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/deus-ex-mankind-divideds-controversial-preorder-ca/1100-6431064/
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
As someone whom had a family member struggling with a gambling addiction and witnessing first hand how it can ruin a life, I am very against gambling.
Cheers.
Sticking up for a company like this will not help the MMO community in any way shape or form, we are only falling deeper into what we force ourselves to find "Acceptable". Never have I felt more disappointment in any single company than them.
The reason it's bad is because most of the points were generalizations with no attempt made to show how any pattern or incidents justify the stereotype. Perhaps I'm a little misguided to expect this much from the main guy for this website. If I didn't pay attention I would have assumed it was written by some random forum poster with no journalistic responsibility to the site, or perhaps that's was the intended effect.
Look I can do it too:
1. MMORPG writers should stop writing click bait articles with unjustified generalizations about it's audience.
^ Nevermind the fact this might be an isolated incident, the other writers don't do it, and I actually want a lot of people to read this so I can get some LOLs, Awesomes, and Agrees (I prefer LOLs please).
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But it that's just my opinion. After finally completing the Witcher, everything seems short in comparison anyways lol
~~ postlarval ~~
And yeah, he's not a writer from this site so fair game I guess.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
This isn't about keeping us safe, Torval. It's about promoting and allowing open discussion and awareness to even just exist, and it's about applying a critical view for the sake of enlightened understanding of complicated matters and possible outcomes.
It's funny that this article was on the surface about specific complaints, and yet somehow there's a subtext that is being read where the article is actually about complaints generally. I mean we get it already. Some people suck at making reasonable and respectful arguments. So let's fucking ignore those people and move on to the good and smart critics and commentators like Iselin, Sovrath, and many others including usually you too, Torval.
Teh Ol' Bill doesn't really want us to stop bitching. If we did, his ad income generation and website activity would drop by 90%.
11 pages of comments = successfully trolled.
Stay safe peeps~
If I were to say I think the combat is sluggish and unresponsive in X game, I would view that as criticism and an opinion. I think many would view it as complaining - and I'm not sure that they are wrong. Complaining to me at least looks more like when someone makes a thread that says that MMOs are doomed or about how all themeparks are for babies or some other nondescript, nebulous complaint. It is more of an emotional response than a logical one.
So maybe I view complaining as more generalized and criticism more specific. I'm not sure that is the right way to view it. I know that I have definitely complained myself in the past. But I think if people were to stay specific with their "complaint," and as long as they support that complaint with a solid argument or some solid evidence, then I think it is a valid way to go about business on a forum. This is obviously not always the case though and when it is not the case, it comes off as complaining to me at least.
I'll just say that the response to this article by Massively was spot on. And even though I believe that individually and personally, people would be better off by moving on and just not giving their money to games that engage in practices that offend them, there is also room to criticize.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
~~ postlarval ~~