Vermillion_Raventhal said: If you are paying money in a game for advantage it is bad game design.
...and like I pointed out, it isn't.
Just because you do not like or disagree with something does not make it "bad".
Doube standards and hypocrisy.
It does make it it bad to me. It's the whole concept of opinion.
Hypocrisy: the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.
For me to be a hypocrite I would have to push standards I don't follow. I clearly stated I don't play games built around time don't have or want to spend. I clearly said I don't play games built around playing to win/advantage. I said time investment in a game or sport is fine because they actually playing a game which is what a game is supposed to be about. I gave examples such as paying to be placed at the end of marathon is just cheese because you don't or can't train. This from me anti grind, pro horizontal progression pusher.
I stated stop making excuses for why you spend. Don't compare it to people who actually played the game through. You spend because you can and want to. If you don't have time, skill, desire or whatever to play than don't. That's what said and I do. Paying to circumvent game play is essentially cheating even if developers do it for profit.
You have yet to give a valid reason why your side has any legs to stand on. Again just outrage.
I don't know about "fair" but there is a difference.
Playing a game is all about spending time in it presumably because you enjoy the time you spend playing it. Paying extra to avoid spending time in a game sort of defeats the whole purpose of why you're there in the first place doesn't it?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Often I am told that the ephemeral concept of "P2W" is bad. The definition is sketchy and seems to boil down to whatever personal experience imposes upon it.
But there seems to be a consensus of opinion in certain quarters that P2W is bad, even if it is not "P2W" per se, but rather a means for an otherwise free game to earn money by selling certain minor advanatages... but facts should not get in the way of a good rant.
So allow me to put the opposite argument forward. I have spare cash but I work hard. Most of my mates have families. Is it fair that someone with a lot of time on their hands (the standard basement dweller) should be given a huge advantage over me due to the time they have to spend playing a game? How is this advantage any better or any worse than the cash advantage of buying items in a cash shop?
Are people ultimately selfish, and massaging morality to suit their own outlook (the answer is- of course).
Both T2W and P2W are bad.
Ideal would a game that: 1. dont allow money to buy stuff in game and also 2. does not allow to earn more stats/items/etc after ~15 hours/week spent in game.
I don't know about "fair" but there is a difference.
Playing a game is all about spending time in it presumably because you enjoy the time you spend playing it. Paying extra to avoid spending time in a game sort of defeats the whole purpose of why you're there in the first place doesn't it?
Exactly and then you play the game you want to play. I don't like to grind excessively so I skip those games that grind too much... unless its fun like ToS was for a half second. We play games to avoid trappings of unfair crap in real life... unless its great game play not paid for outside factors.
People will say life isn't far so expect games to not be fair. I bet the same people will be against any realistic features in games because games are form of escapism. I guess its just this generation. Sportsmanship is shot.
It depends on the time when you are discussing T2W. As an example, if a game allows you a point two six percent chance at gaining something, lets say a tree that is needed in item construction but then sells a device that gives you a ten percent chance at gaining a tree, I dont think that is ethical.
Do some games allow you the chance to earn things in the game, yep! But how long would it realistically take to earn that thing? I planted hundreds of trees in AA over the course of months and only came up with two TS trees. My friend used the cash shop and got two in a day. I personally dont think months of game time should be able to be purchased in an instant via the cash shop.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
"I should be able to pay 1.000$ to match the piano player's skill, because I chose to do something else with my time".
Please show me an MMO where spending money gets you a "skill".
Please show me an MMO where getting to lvl x or getting a gear y is a matter of skill rather than time spent.
It's not so much a matter of skill, but equal footing. The "pay for time" argument is that you pay to be on equal footing, instead of spending time.
The measure of "strength" in basketball is skill, in MMOs it may be a combination of skill, gear and level.
If someone spends their whole life playing basketball, I feel they should come on top of a casual basketball player. Time invested should be roughly indicative of strength. Most importantly, I don't think a starting player should be able to say "I spent my time elsewhere, but here is money. Give me equal footing to Kobe Bryant."
This is obviously not possible in basketball - since it's only skill driven. But it is possible in MMOs - those are gear/level driven.
Imagine a system where you could buy equal footing in basketball for money. I'd say it would undermine a lot of the "magic" of the sport.
It's not fair that people with more time to play a game get an advantage. It's not fair that people who spend more money on a game get an advantage. It's not fair that people with better reflexes get an advantage. It's not fair that people who can better plan out strategy get an advantage.
It's not fair that some people have more free time to play games than others. It's not fair that some people have more money than others. It's not fair that some people have better reflexes than others. It's not fair that some people are smarter than others.
Welcome to life. Life isn't fair. Unless everyone gets a participation trophy just for showing up and there's nothing more to be gained beyond this, some people are going to have an advantage over others in any given game. That's not fair, but the alternative of all games being completely stupid is much worse. So find games that you think are fun and learn to deal with the ways that it's not fair.
I don't know about "fair" but there is a difference.
Playing a game is all about spending time in it presumably because you enjoy the time you spend playing it. Paying extra to avoid spending time in a game sort of defeats the whole purpose of why you're there in the first place doesn't it?
Not everyone has the same motivation for playing games.
Competitive players often are driven by winning and defeating their opponents for example.
To them time spent in game is actually a detriment as they want to get to end game ASAP and just kill other players.
So paying to fast track to end game is something that makes perfect sense to PvP driven players.
A developer who wants fair gameplay just makes a server that has fast progression. Of courses, monitization these days is basically take whatever gamers are willing to pay for right or wrong.
It's not so much a matter of skill, but equal footing.
There is no such thing as equal footing.
It is just an illusive concept, an idea.
It does not exist in real world, money is always a factor.
Even in your basketball example, the club is paying high amounts of money to provide best possible training conditions possible, nutrition supplements, equippment, etc. etc.
Imagine a system where you could buy equal footing in basketball for money. I'd say it would undermine a lot of the "magic" of the sport.
It is you who is implying that such systems exist and spending money on MMO indeed puts you on "equal footing" with those who spent a lot time practicing and I asked you for examples.
So again:
Please show me an MMO where spending money gets you a "skill".
"How is this advantage any better or any worse than the cash advantage of buying items in a cash shop? "
Because the advantage is gained through playing the game. P2W advantage is gained through something else.
MMORPGs are RPGs. You are meant to role-play as your character and gain strength as your character advances. Sudden godly boosts of power from cash infusions from the real world destroys this precept.
Plus the common story of the guy paying money to keep up with no-lifers never turns out to be true. As soon as p2w is implemented, the only way to be at the top is to pay. This devalues time-spent in the game, to the point where the game is not worth spending any time playing at all.
Perhaps most importantly in addition to all this, p2w incentives the devs making the game mundane, unfair and inconvenient so you will pay to avoid having to play through it. This quite obviously does not make for good games.
I don't know about "fair" but there is a difference.
Playing a game is all about spending time in it presumably because you enjoy the time you spend playing it. Paying extra to avoid spending time in a game sort of defeats the whole purpose of why you're there in the first place doesn't it?
Not everyone has the same motivation for playing games.
Competitive players often are driven by winning and defeating their opponents for example.
To them time spent in game is actually a detriment as they want to get to end game ASAP and just kill other players.
So paying to fast track to end game is something that makes perfect sense to PvP driven players.
I understand why some do it and why some play without sleep for 48 hours or more when a game is released and why people use console commands in Fallout 4 to turn on "god mode."
Gaming the game is a pastime for some and it's why a micro-transaction industry grew around them to give them what they want.
But regardless of why they do that, it's pretty hard to argue that they were playing the games as designed... except maybe these days when some games are designed explicitly to promote that. But that, IMO, is just shitty game design.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I don't know about "fair" but there is a difference.
Playing a game is all about spending time in it presumably because you enjoy the time you spend playing it. Paying extra to avoid spending time in a game sort of defeats the whole purpose of why you're there in the first place doesn't it?
Not everyone has the same motivation for playing games.
Competitive players often are driven by winning and defeating their opponents for example.
To them time spent in game is actually a detriment as they want to get to end game ASAP and just kill other players.
So paying to fast track to end game is something that makes perfect sense to PvP driven players.
I am this sort of player in some games, (tbh questing/levelling in MMORPGs is usually of atrocious quality so time spent on it = waste) but I would prefer "levelling" to be skippable as an option in game rather than being funneled to cash shop to pay for instant level/xp boost to avoid it/decrease time spent on it and to actually pay for game in a diffrent way.
Imagine a system where you could buy equal footing in basketball for money. I'd say it would undermine a lot of the "magic" of the sport.
It is you who is implying that such systems exist and spending money on MMO indeed puts you on "equal footing" with those who spent a lot time practicing and I asked you for examples.
So again:
Please show me an MMO where spending money gets you a "skill".
I'm talking about the "time for money" argument in general terms. I've mainly seen it used in that context.
Star Citizen developers have used it to defend the in-game money sales for example. They literally said "Some people don't have time, but have money. Those people should be able to have an equal footing with people who have time and don't spend money."
I personally think it's more of a theoretical topic. You'd talk about these questions when designing a cash shop. Then you have to consider if your micro transactions are designed with that in mind - do you enable people to spend money to bring themselves closer to those who "spend time".
Majority of cash shops don't follow that theme.
Edit: I also don't mean to come across as a frantical supporter/opposer of the model. There's probably market for all sorts of opinions and models.
Well a LOT more is going on behind closed doors than what people THINK is going on. Quite often these so called f2p games have been sponsored by investors who are looking to cash in on profits and have tons of money to lose,so there is very little risk if any. Most the time,everyone is like "oh well they have to make money somehow",WRONG,they have to make a quality game FIRST,then we can talk about making money.
Try asking your boss if he will pay you up front for the next year or two,tell him you need time to work into your job and that you might not be ready just yet...lmao ..good luck.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
However, people screaming "P2W" like to make false hyperboles just like your piano player example.
Isn't it a fitting example though?
You have one player who gets to play 2 hours on weekends. Then you have a student who plays 8 hours each day of the week.
The "time for money" argument is that the first should be able to pay money, to match the situation of the second. I'm not saying this is implemented in MMOs - it's a theoretical framework that some developers may follow.
I've seen developers use this argument to justify their cash shop.
However, people screaming "P2W" like to make false hyperboles just like your piano player example.
Isn't it a fitting example though?
You have one player who gets to play 2 hours on weekends. Then you have a student who plays 8 hours each day of the week.
The "time for money" argument is that the first should be able to pay money, to match the situation of the second. I'm not saying this is implemented in MMOs - it's a theoretical framework that some developers may follow.
I've seen developers use this argument to justify their cash shop.
But how long does the "no money" guy spend learning to play the piano? If he spent years and then someone can walk up and drop money down and instantly become as skilled as him, is that an ethical business practice? Is that the kind of game you want to spend your time on?
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
However, people screaming "P2W" like to make false hyperboles just like your piano player example.
Isn't it a fitting example though?
You have one player who gets to play 2 hours on weekends. Then you have a student who plays 8 hours each day of the week.
The "time for money" argument is that the first should be able to pay money, to match the situation of the second. I'm not saying this is implemented in MMOs - it's a theoretical framework that some developers may follow.
I've seen developers use this argument to justify their cash shop.
Example of what?
Developers do not use "piano argument", neither it is theoretical framework.It is rubbish,false hyperbole.
laxie said: Majority of cash shops don't follow that theme.
Oh they certainly do follow that theme.
However, people screaming "P2W" like to make false hyperboles just like your piano player example.
No need for that. If I feel like the games integrity has been compromised by real life money I simply don't play. I don't buy justification that time = money in a game. If developers just said I want to make as much money as possible than that's one thing.
I could budget to spend hundreds on cash shops or make time to grind with no life if I really wanted too. But it's not something I will partake in.
OP's original statement was great and should have left out basement dweller thingy. People with more time may have a high paying part time job. May be a writer or self employed person with an income from royalties, or retired, or a lot of other situations which gives a person lots of free time.
I have no problem with P2W but I do mostly PvE and have never wanted to be a number one PvP guy on my server, well known by all. But as quiet as it's kept, some of those guys have a lot of time 'and' throw in a ton of money to be number one, and have developed great skills, so saying whales are whales because they have no skills or time are not always correct.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Comments
Hypocrisy: the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.
For me to be a hypocrite I would have to push standards I don't follow. I clearly stated I don't play games built around time don't have or want to spend. I clearly said I don't play games built around playing to win/advantage. I said time investment in a game or sport is fine because they actually playing a game which is what a game is supposed to be about. I gave examples such as paying to be placed at the end of marathon is just cheese because you don't or can't train. This from me anti grind, pro horizontal progression pusher.
I stated stop making excuses for why you spend. Don't compare it to people who actually played the game through. You spend because you can and want to. If you don't have time, skill, desire or whatever to play than don't. That's what said and I do. Paying to circumvent game play is essentially cheating even if developers do it for profit.
You have yet to give a valid reason why your side has any legs to stand on. Again just outrage.
Those two are not the same....and that is where your hypocrisy comes from.
If I say smoking is good for your health it won't make it good for your health.
If on the other hand if I say that I like smoking...
See the difference and how it works...?
You are hypocrite for granting yourself rights you deny to others - you can spend time but no money.
That is how you end up with blunders like:
Truth = stated fact.
Which did I do? Stated my opinion. You can agree to disgree.
Fact = you calling me out on hypocrisy = unfounded and untrue.
You still haven't even given a valid reason for your opinion. Just wrongly trying state my opinion is stated as fact and misusing the word hypocrisy.
Playing a game is all about spending time in it presumably because you enjoy the time you spend playing it. Paying extra to avoid spending time in a game sort of defeats the whole purpose of why you're there in the first place doesn't it?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Ideal would a game that:
1. dont allow money to buy stuff in game and
also
2. does not allow to earn more stats/items/etc after ~15 hours/week spent in game.
People will say life isn't far so expect games to not be fair. I bet the same people will be against any realistic features in games because games are form of escapism. I guess its just this generation. Sportsmanship is shot.
Do some games allow you the chance to earn things in the game, yep! But how long would it realistically take to earn that thing? I planted hundreds of trees in AA over the course of months and only came up with two TS trees. My friend used the cash shop and got two in a day. I personally dont think months of game time should be able to be purchased in an instant via the cash shop.
The measure of "strength" in basketball is skill, in MMOs it may be a combination of skill, gear and level.
If someone spends their whole life playing basketball, I feel they should come on top of a casual basketball player. Time invested should be roughly indicative of strength. Most importantly, I don't think a starting player should be able to say "I spent my time elsewhere, but here is money. Give me equal footing to Kobe Bryant."
This is obviously not possible in basketball - since it's only skill driven. But it is possible in MMOs - those are gear/level driven.
Imagine a system where you could buy equal footing in basketball for money. I'd say it would undermine a lot of the "magic" of the sport.
It's not fair that people who spend more money on a game get an advantage.
It's not fair that people with better reflexes get an advantage.
It's not fair that people who can better plan out strategy get an advantage.
It's not fair that some people have more free time to play games than others.
It's not fair that some people have more money than others.
It's not fair that some people have better reflexes than others.
It's not fair that some people are smarter than others.
Welcome to life. Life isn't fair. Unless everyone gets a participation trophy just for showing up and there's nothing more to be gained beyond this, some people are going to have an advantage over others in any given game. That's not fair, but the alternative of all games being completely stupid is much worse. So find games that you think are fun and learn to deal with the ways that it's not fair.
It is just an illusive concept, an idea. It does not exist in real world, money is always a factor.
Even in your basketball example, the club is paying high amounts of money to provide best possible training conditions possible, nutrition supplements, equippment, etc. etc.
It is you who is implying that such systems exist and spending money on MMO indeed puts you on "equal footing" with those who spent a lot time practicing and I asked you for examples.
So again: Please show me an MMO where spending money gets you a "skill".
Because the advantage is gained through playing the game. P2W advantage is gained through something else.
MMORPGs are RPGs. You are meant to role-play as your character and gain strength as your character advances. Sudden godly boosts of power from cash infusions from the real world destroys this precept.
Plus the common story of the guy paying money to keep up with no-lifers never turns out to be true. As soon as p2w is implemented, the only way to be at the top is to pay. This devalues time-spent in the game, to the point where the game is not worth spending any time playing at all.
Perhaps most importantly in addition to all this, p2w incentives the devs making the game mundane, unfair and inconvenient so you will pay to avoid having to play through it. This quite obviously does not make for good games.
Gaming the game is a pastime for some and it's why a micro-transaction industry grew around them to give them what they want.
But regardless of why they do that, it's pretty hard to argue that they were playing the games as designed... except maybe these days when some games are designed explicitly to promote that. But that, IMO, is just shitty game design.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Star Citizen developers have used it to defend the in-game money sales for example. They literally said "Some people don't have time, but have money. Those people should be able to have an equal footing with people who have time and don't spend money."
I personally think it's more of a theoretical topic. You'd talk about these questions when designing a cash shop. Then you have to consider if your micro transactions are designed with that in mind - do you enable people to spend money to bring themselves closer to those who "spend time".
Majority of cash shops don't follow that theme.
Edit:
I also don't mean to come across as a frantical supporter/opposer of the model. There's probably market for all sorts of opinions and models.
Quite often these so called f2p games have been sponsored by investors who are looking to cash in on profits and have tons of money to lose,so there is very little risk if any.
Most the time,everyone is like "oh well they have to make money somehow",WRONG,they have to make a quality game FIRST,then we can talk about making money.
Try asking your boss if he will pay you up front for the next year or two,tell him you need time to work into your job and that you might not be ready just yet...lmao ..good luck.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
However, people screaming "P2W" like to make false hyperboles just like your piano player example.
You have one player who gets to play 2 hours on weekends.
Then you have a student who plays 8 hours each day of the week.
The "time for money" argument is that the first should be able to pay money, to match the situation of the second. I'm not saying this is implemented in MMOs - it's a theoretical framework that some developers may follow.
I've seen developers use this argument to justify their cash shop.
Developers do not use "piano argument", neither it is theoretical framework.It is rubbish,false hyperbole.
I could budget to spend hundreds on cash shops or make time to grind with no life if I really wanted too. But it's not something I will partake in.
I have no problem with P2W but I do mostly PvE and have never wanted to be a number one PvP guy on my server, well known by all. But as quiet as it's kept, some of those guys have a lot of time 'and' throw in a ton of money to be number one, and have developed great skills, so saying whales are whales because they have no skills or time are not always correct.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey