Well, it's not like they killed someone or kidnapped puppies and babies. And they are having the accomplishment taken away in addition to admitting that they did wrong.
I'm definitely a person who believes in redemption and believe that people do stupid things and sometimes just need a little nudge in the right direction.
Now, if they were caught doing it again ...
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Well, it's not like they killed someone or kidnapped puppies and babies. And they are having the accomplishment taken away in addition to admitting that they did wrong.
I'm definitely a person who believes in redemption and believe that people do stupid things and sometimes just need a little nudge in the right direction.
Now, if they were caught doing it again ...
Yeah, if they do it again the banhammer should drop. I agree with a somewhat light initial punishment.
The problem as I see it is Blizzards fault (mostly):
1) Raids are competing for firsts. Simple.
2) Blizzard has tier'd the raids in such a way you need the gear from one to compete for the next one.
3) 2 of the guilds cheated the raid and got the gear, so now they're fast tracked for the next raid (gear wise) and the ones that didn't are now further behind.
Ultimately, the guilds made the decision but it's the inherent fostering of said competition that has caused all of this.
Maybe Blizz should, I dunno, QA things before putting them on live servers. I thought this was exactly what PTS' are for.
"OMG, QA should have caught that bug." Bugs get into release. People need to grow the F up about that.
Exploiting a bug is cheating.
A stupid person might not know it was a bug and make a BS claim about how they thought it was indented. Sorry, you get punished the same way as knowing. Perhaps you will wise up.
Bleeding edge guilds are not stupid. They might try to claim they didn't know but they did. They should get punished hard.
This blame the devs "tee hee we got away with it" needs to stop. People need to be more mature about it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Well, it's not like they killed someone or kidnapped puppies and babies. And they are having the accomplishment taken away in addition to admitting that they did wrong.
I'm definitely a person who believes in redemption and believe that people do stupid things and sometimes just need a little nudge in the right direction.
Now, if they were caught doing it again ...
Are you going to support the "blame it on devs/QA" or "It shouldn't have been released like that" line of thinking?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
"First one to the end of the obstacle course doesn't have to run laps." Dude proceeds to walk to the other side while other dude tackles obstacle course and becomes first.
I guess blizzard stricter than any military sergeant.
When CCP saw us killing drifter bosses in ways they didn't like, they just changed the drifters to actually make it better for the way we choose. I really think CCP was expecting us to drain like 2million+ capacitor to stop the doomsday or something equally silly, so to avoid such silliness EvE players being EvE players just choose to accept a lost ship or two OR fly a monster of a battle ship that could tank the doomsday outright. In response CCP made the drifter doomsday act like it had tracking, allowing it to be dodged with the right sized ships and support fleet (tackle).
how sandbox devs respond to their player base, over a theme park dev that just takes the ball away when you don't play their way.
a more realistic comparison: if someone found a way to bug out enemy ships so they can't use a specific ability and be completely destroyed, would u still be glancing over to the sandbox developers with the same amount of love? yeah.... no
I can certainly agree that it is mostly Blizzards fault since they are the ones who developed the encounter and left the broken functionality in the game, but I don't blame them for not finding such unusual interactions in testing. If it was something horribly obvious then that would be terrible development but having a tank die during a specific period of time where the boss was targeting them with a skill and only during the final phase of the fight, I wouldn't say that is something you actively search for (Although now they are probably going to be sacrificing themselves to every targeted mechanic in the future).
very wise. my problem is that I think everyone is this wise but most would rather actively deny their feelings >_>
Seems to be the motto for Blizzard. If this had happened in any other game they would have fixed it silently and moved on. Blizzard seems to have this superiority complex. We are gods and if you take advantage of our shitty coding we will ban you.
Nonsense. Game developers have been issuing punishments for exploits since the days of The Sleeper in Everquest 1.
Yup that's true but I doubt through his WOW hate he would know that.
There's literally no escape, in any forum, any topic about MMOs, from you raiding haters. You are everywhere spreading bile about organized groups in MMOs, challenging content, doing your solo casual play-style promotion.
Wait till Pantheon comes along they really will be pissed.
I hate to break it to you, however Raiders were always in the minority. It just so happens that in the last few years their numbers have declined even more.
What's the reason for that? People rather play MMOs for the story nowadays, so basically solo.
How do you know that? In your solo playsessions that's what each of your NPC friends keeps saying?
When CCP saw us killing drifter bosses in ways they didn't like, they just changed the drifters to actually make it better for the way we choose. I really think CCP was expecting us to drain like 2million+ capacitor to stop the doomsday or something equally silly, so to avoid such silliness EvE players being EvE players just choose to accept a lost ship or two OR fly a monster of a battle ship that could tank the doomsday outright. In response CCP made the drifter doomsday act like it had tracking, allowing it to be dodged with the right sized ships and support fleet (tackle).
how sandbox devs respond to their player base, over a theme park dev that just takes the ball away when you don't play their way.
a more realistic comparison: if someone found a way to bug out enemy ships so they can't use a specific ability and be completely destroyed, would u still be glancing over to the sandbox developers with the same amount of love? yeah.... no
I can certainly agree that it is mostly Blizzards fault since they are the ones who developed the encounter and left the broken functionality in the game, but I don't blame them for not finding such unusual interactions in testing. If it was something horribly obvious then that would be terrible development but having a tank die during a specific period of time where the boss was targeting them with a skill and only during the final phase of the fight, I wouldn't say that is something you actively search for (Although now they are probably going to be sacrificing themselves to every targeted mechanic in the future).
very wise. my problem is that I think everyone is this wise but most would rather actively deny their feelings >_>
Actually there were multiple ways to bug out the drifter ships. 1) attack from super far range which would make them unresponsive 2) force drifters to follow you to a station (they had a new ability to track you down if you warped off) and dock up as the doomsday was about to go off.
CCP took no actions against the players at all. There was not even any sort of loud demand for something to be done. Though they were fixed pretty early in the event.
Likewise drifter incursions were some of the most profitable PvE content that ever existed in EvE. Even splitting the income 20 ways your individual self would walk away with over a billion in value in a short night (considering you able to do this once a week(maybe twice) it was enough that I'm still coasting on that income even though I was closer to the couple times a month category, though I did join after the more exploitive things were patched out).
Amusingly enough the content stayed niche to pretty much only a handful of socializers and explorers (mentality). Since EvE players have a mentality that you should never ever die to an NPC, and if you do you suck. Which meant that when it was out that the content was actually hard, even though it wasn't, the community ignored it.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Well, it's not like they killed someone or kidnapped puppies and babies. And they are having the accomplishment taken away in addition to admitting that they did wrong.
I'm definitely a person who believes in redemption and believe that people do stupid things and sometimes just need a little nudge in the right direction.
Now, if they were caught doing it again ...
Are you going to support the "blame it on devs/QA" or "It shouldn't have been released like that" line of thinking?
neither.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
When CCP saw us killing drifter bosses in ways they didn't like, they just changed the drifters to actually make it better for the way we choose. I really think CCP was expecting us to drain like 2million+ capacitor to stop the doomsday or something equally silly, so to avoid such silliness EvE players being EvE players just choose to accept a lost ship or two OR fly a monster of a battle ship that could tank the doomsday outright. In response CCP made the drifter doomsday act like it had tracking, allowing it to be dodged with the right sized ships and support fleet (tackle).
how sandbox devs respond to their player base, over a theme park dev that just takes the ball away when you don't play their way.
a more realistic comparison: if someone found a way to bug out enemy ships so they can't use a specific ability and be completely destroyed, would u still be glancing over to the sandbox developers with the same amount of love? yeah.... no
I can certainly agree that it is mostly Blizzards fault since they are the ones who developed the encounter and left the broken functionality in the game, but I don't blame them for not finding such unusual interactions in testing. If it was something horribly obvious then that would be terrible development but having a tank die during a specific period of time where the boss was targeting them with a skill and only during the final phase of the fight, I wouldn't say that is something you actively search for (Although now they are probably going to be sacrificing themselves to every targeted mechanic in the future).
very wise. my problem is that I think everyone is this wise but most would rather actively deny their feelings >_>
Actually there were multiple ways to bug out the drifter ships. 1) attack from super far range which would make them unresponsive 2) force drifters to follow you to a station (they had a new ability to track you down if you warped off) and dock up as the doomsday was about to go off.
CCP took no actions against the players at all. There was not even any sort of loud demand for something to be done. Though they were fixed pretty early in the event.
Likewise drifter incursions were some of the most profitable PvE content that ever existed in EvE. Even splitting the income 20 ways your individual self would walk away with over a billion in value in a short night (considering you able to do this once a week(maybe twice) it was enough that I'm still coasting on that income even though I was closer to the couple times a month category, though I did join after the more exploitive things were patched out).
Amusingly enough the content stayed niche to pretty much only a handful of socializers and explorers (mentality). Since EvE players have a mentality that you should never ever die to an NPC, and if you do you suck. Which meant that when it was out that the content was actually hard, even though it wasn't, the community ignored it.
I was wrong Interesting story though, I remember reading a bunch of EVE stories in a dutch gaming magazine. They were about scammers and guilds, it was a really awesome read
It's not Blizzards fault they used an exploit that was unintended. If my doors lock is broken to my home doesn't mean you can just walk right in. Just silly way of thinking on most peoples behalves here. Be noble and honorable and play the encounter the way it was intended.
Or I am just a better person than the people who exploit a broken mechanic.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
I hate to break it to you, however Raiders were always in the minority. It just so happens that in the last few years their numbers have declined even more.
What's the reason for that? People rather play MMOs for the story nowadays, so basically solo.
According to what? The random things you pulled out of your ass?
He is technically correct. Raiding has never had high numbers when compared to other activities. This can be attributed to there be so many other activities available (by comparison, so it was never a fair fight to begin with), and the whole "solo" mindset of some players. Many developers -- Blizzard Included -- have stated that they don't want to create content for a very small amount of people. This is one reason why they made LFR to justify. One can also look at "hardcore raiding" MMOs and examine their downfall from various perspectives. When it comes to their numbers dwindling in recent years -- as we have seen by many of the top WoW raid guilds disbanding during WoD -- it's just a matter of time moving on and things naturally decaying because of it. Though it's a true assertion nonetheless, even if it is unjustly made to make it look like raiding is dying as a whole.
This is why I don't raid. I just don't have that amount of "gaming time".
Apply this to what I wrote above. The time involved -- especially with "Hardcore raiding MMOs" such as Wildstar -- has a direct impact on interest. Though Wildstar had its own flaws in the system, starting with trying to revive 40 man raids and annoying attunements when interest in such just wasn't there. We will continue to see raid sizes shrink as new activities are created, such as 5 man raiding (mythic + / challenge modes). The latter will only grow in popularity as time goes on. Heck, Palace of the Dead in itself is wildly popular on FFXIV. Two hundred floor four man dungeon crawler with its own level system, rulesets, items, weapons and armor, tactics, etc.
I still remember when getting a group of 18 people together to camp a site for 24-36 hours straight in hopes of tagging a one-time a week rare boss that a dozen other guilds are trying to tag was popular. The raids we have now will soon go the way of those, in time, and be replaced with something else.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
I have read different thoughts from different people all over about this. The one thing I agree on is that there should be a no tolerance rule for exploiting. However, taking a look at it from a different perspective, I have some minor sympathies based on the following:
1) These raiders work their asses off to get the best advantages possible. They played the game for 18 hours a day for months to grind AP, Legendaries, etc. If they go to such lengths as this, then of course they're going to try and go for anything else that gives them an edge. Therefore, when it comes to people saying they might be lazy, this isn't the case. They're just insane about having an edge and take it too far in both legit and illegal (game wise) ways. Some have even deleted their characters due to thinking there was a cap on legendaries, in the hopes to get the right one (and grinding all that AP again). We now find out there was a soft cap on the bad luck protection, which made it so most were stuck with four legendaries.
2) Blizzard hasn't been strict enough on exploit banning in the past. They let many exploits go without punishment in the last couple of expansion, some even having near identical circumstances as this one. When this happens, and you have the mindset above, it's either you risk having someone else perform the exploit (and get away from it as history suggests) and miss out, or do it yourself. But they should always graciously accept the ban if they do get punished as that's just the risk of your position in trying to be the best and have every edge possible.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Actually I think the raid leader should get the bulk of the punishment in cases like this, not the rest of the people.
Most of the low tier members of a raid are just following orders and may or may not have even known an exploit was happening.
Even in the case where they did figure things out, you have the option of ditching your guild's raid and making a dissent to the raid leader and probably end up kicked out of the guild, or of turning the guild in and again leaving the guild.
---
In the case of something like this you have several classes.
1) The raid leader who was employing the tactic.
2) Officer level players who knew about the tactic.
3) Anyone else.
#1 should get a stern warning that if they ever do such a thing again they will get a ban. They should also be kicked from the guild permanently.
#3 should get a black mark on the account such that if this kind of thing happens again, they can be treated more harshly, but otherwise shouldn't get punished.
Comments
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
Well, it's not like they killed someone or kidnapped puppies and babies. And they are having the accomplishment taken away in addition to admitting that they did wrong.
I'm definitely a person who believes in redemption and believe that people do stupid things and sometimes just need a little nudge in the right direction.
Now, if they were caught doing it again ...
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
"OMG, QA should have caught that bug." Bugs get into release. People need to grow the F up about that.
Exploiting a bug is cheating.
A stupid person might not know it was a bug and make a BS claim about how they thought it was indented. Sorry, you get punished the same way as knowing. Perhaps you will wise up.
Bleeding edge guilds are not stupid. They might try to claim they didn't know but they did. They should get punished hard.
This blame the devs "tee hee we got away with it" needs to stop. People need to be more mature about it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Are you going to support the "blame it on devs/QA" or "It shouldn't have been released like that" line of thinking?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
"First one to the end of the obstacle course doesn't have to run laps." Dude proceeds to walk to the other side while other dude tackles obstacle course and becomes first.
I guess blizzard stricter than any military sergeant.
a more realistic comparison: if someone found a way to bug out enemy ships so they can't use a specific ability and be completely destroyed, would u still be glancing over to the sandbox developers with the same amount of love? yeah.... no
Yup that's true but I doubt through his WOW hate he would know that.
Wait till Pantheon comes along they really will be pissed.
This is why I don't raid. I just don't have that amount of "gaming time".
How do you know that? In your solo playsessions that's what each of your NPC friends keeps saying?
Actually there were multiple ways to bug out the drifter ships. 1) attack from super far range which would make them unresponsive 2) force drifters to follow you to a station (they had a new ability to track you down if you warped off) and dock up as the doomsday was about to go off.
CCP took no actions against the players at all. There was not even any sort of loud demand for something to be done. Though they were fixed pretty early in the event.
Likewise drifter incursions were some of the most profitable PvE content that ever existed in EvE. Even splitting the income 20 ways your individual self would walk away with over a billion in value in a short night (considering you able to do this once a week(maybe twice) it was enough that I'm still coasting on that income even though I was closer to the couple times a month category, though I did join after the more exploitive things were patched out).
Amusingly enough the content stayed niche to pretty much only a handful of socializers and explorers (mentality). Since EvE players have a mentality that you should never ever die to an NPC, and if you do you suck. Which meant that when it was out that the content was actually hard, even though it wasn't, the community ignored it.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I was wrong
Or I am just a better person than the people who exploit a broken mechanic.
He is technically correct. Raiding has never had high numbers when compared to other activities. This can be attributed to there be so many other activities available (by comparison, so it was never a fair fight to begin with), and the whole "solo" mindset of some players. Many developers -- Blizzard Included -- have stated that they don't want to create content for a very small amount of people. This is one reason why they made LFR to justify. One can also look at "hardcore raiding" MMOs and examine their downfall from various perspectives. When it comes to their numbers dwindling in recent years -- as we have seen by many of the top WoW raid guilds disbanding during WoD -- it's just a matter of time moving on and things naturally decaying because of it. Though it's a true assertion nonetheless, even if it is unjustly made to make it look like raiding is dying as a whole.
Apply this to what I wrote above. The time involved -- especially with "Hardcore raiding MMOs" such as Wildstar -- has a direct impact on interest. Though Wildstar had its own flaws in the system, starting with trying to revive 40 man raids and annoying attunements when interest in such just wasn't there. We will continue to see raid sizes shrink as new activities are created, such as 5 man raiding (mythic + / challenge modes). The latter will only grow in popularity as time goes on. Heck, Palace of the Dead in itself is wildly popular on FFXIV. Two hundred floor four man dungeon crawler with its own level system, rulesets, items, weapons and armor, tactics, etc.
I still remember when getting a group of 18 people together to camp a site for 24-36 hours straight in hopes of tagging a one-time a week rare boss that a dozen other guilds are trying to tag was popular. The raids we have now will soon go the way of those, in time, and be replaced with something else.
1) These raiders work their asses off to get the best advantages possible. They played the game for 18 hours a day for months to grind AP, Legendaries, etc. If they go to such lengths as this, then of course they're going to try and go for anything else that gives them an edge. Therefore, when it comes to people saying they might be lazy, this isn't the case. They're just insane about having an edge and take it too far in both legit and illegal (game wise) ways. Some have even deleted their characters due to thinking there was a cap on legendaries, in the hopes to get the right one (and grinding all that AP again). We now find out there was a soft cap on the bad luck protection, which made it so most were stuck with four legendaries.
2) Blizzard hasn't been strict enough on exploit banning in the past. They let many exploits go without punishment in the last couple of expansion, some even having near identical circumstances as this one. When this happens, and you have the mindset above, it's either you risk having someone else perform the exploit (and get away from it as history suggests) and miss out, or do it yourself. But they should always graciously accept the ban if they do get punished as that's just the risk of your position in trying to be the best and have every edge possible.
Most of the low tier members of a raid are just following orders and may or may not have even known an exploit was happening.
Even in the case where they did figure things out, you have the option of ditching your guild's raid and making a dissent to the raid leader and probably end up kicked out of the guild, or of turning the guild in and again leaving the guild.
---
In the case of something like this you have several classes.
1) The raid leader who was employing the tactic.
2) Officer level players who knew about the tactic.
3) Anyone else.
#1 should get a stern warning that if they ever do such a thing again they will get a ban. They should also be kicked from the guild permanently.
#2 should get the punishment they gave the raid.
#3 should get a black mark on the account such that if this kind of thing happens again, they can be treated more harshly, but otherwise shouldn't get punished.