I'm going to play Devil's advocate for a moment, just to provide for debate: while I get that PvP in MMORPGs is all about war and nothing implies fairness... It seems the vast majority of players have spoken on the topic with their feet, and they prefer PvP where the developers do provide for a level playing field.
So why wouldn't MMORPGs follow suit? I remember ESO launching with many multiples of Cyrodiil campaigns only to quickly see the number dwindle to just a few. The RvR never quite took off as I hoped it might. Yet, highly structured PvP games have grown like wildfire. Does this not provide evidence that the tastes of the gaming population have moved on from the uneven field? If not, what other features about MOBAs/FPSs and MMORPG PvP systems do you think have caused the trend?
I'm not being an ass, or trying to take a negative tone here at all. I'm just genuinely interested in what structured PVP games you are specifically thinking about. I can think of a lot of structured PVP games, but almost none that are on a completely level playing field. There's always something that makes the field a bit less level.
World of Tanks - Highly structured, but some tanks in each class are simply far superior to others. The Autoloading heavies for instance can murder another tank before it can shoot twice. Russian tanks in general are better than German simply because Russians had sloped armor in WWII and Germans preferred to face-tank enemy rounds rather than bounce them. Artillery can one-shot a tank from the other side of the map and it doesn't feel very fair when it happens.
Overwatch - Highly structured, but very rock/paper/scissors when it comes to character selection. My most played character, Junkrat, is easily countered by Pharah. If the enemy team has one, then it's hard to be effective. But if our team has a really good Soldier, then the Pharah will have a hard time being effective.
Call of Duty - People like to say that this game is all skill based, but I would beg to differ. There are certain loadouts combined with specific weapons that are far more devastating than other combinations. I remember in MW1/MW2 I would take a P90, with a skill that let me sprint twice as long and the skill that hid me from radar... I was banned from several servers because that combo is so powerful people thought I was hacking.
All of those games offer those very options to each player for the same price/time sink, though. That's what makes it level.
MMORPG and, specifically, open world PvP doesn't even control the number of players on each side. That's the uneven playing ground I meant, sorry if I didn't make that completely clear.
And I didn't take your post as antagonistic at all- as I said, I was playing Devil's advocate to spark some more debate- so I tend to agree with you in that loadouts and such can give a player an advantage over another (even if I hadn't, I think you presented your dissenting opinion in a very respectful manner!) I just think that it's more palatable to most modern-day gamers than being ganked by 5 folks at the same time.
In my true, non-advocate opinion, I belive that preference comes full circle to the issue of gamers wanting to play "with" others without actually interacting with them. It's something I don't particularly understand, as the point of multiplayer is the interactions between, well, multiple players. Those that hate the idea of another gamer influencing their experience balks even harder at the possibility of a large number of players coming together to influence their specific experience.
A premium gun is something each individual player can use to their advantage. Being heavily outnumbered isn't, as it requires more than one individual to participate. I think that's an important distinction for many players.
PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor.
MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice...
MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game...
Opinions?
Well, is it strange that most MMOers prefer PvE?
Because it really isn't the players fault since almost all MMOs uses this mechanics. Guildwars had an open playing field and were very popular with PvPers for more than a few years.
Now, personally do I want some kind of progression as well, my preferred progression is when a really excellent player with a new toon barely beat a lousy playing toon with max stats and max gear.
I think MMO PvP either need to be greatly revamped or just skipped since such a small percentage of the playerbase bother with it. Compare that with FPS games where most players prefer PvP, so I am certain PvP in itself isn't the problem, just the lousy implementation in most MMOs. The game that have good PvP also have a far greater percentage of it's playerbase playing it (like DaoC and GW).
I think the term "hardcore pvper" is an oxymoron when used in the context of mmos. The so-called "hardcore pvper" (in terms of mmos) is someone who does lots of pve to get the best gear and then smashes undergeared players in pve.
They are actually hardcore pvers who enjoy beating up other players who are not as "good" at pve as they are. Someone who really likes pvp couldn't be bothered spending hundreds of hours doing pve before they can actually have fun- and then if they can just kill everyone easily because their gear is so good it wouldn't be much fun anyway.
I think the term "hardcore pvper" is an oxymoron when used in the context of mmos. The so-called "hardcore pvper" (in terms of mmos) is someone who does lots of pve to get the best gear and then smashes undergeared players in pve.
They are actually hardcore pvers who enjoy beating up other players who are not as "good" at pve as they are. Someone who really likes pvp couldn't be bothered spending hundreds of hours doing pve before they can actually have fun- and then if they can just kill everyone easily because their gear is so good it wouldn't be much fun anyway.
Yeah, this is my thought too. And any time I try to post a way around it, everyone hates the idea. Even on reddit groups.
MMO PvP is nowhere near actual pvp like battlefield, arma or even games like mount and blade
With that said. EVE Online offers REAL pvp. Sure some of its based on ship+load out. But even a noob can go out and PvP if they know what they are doing and in a proper group in a voice chat together. It isn't about the best ship or best items. I've taken down people 2 vs 3 that had better ships than me and my team mate had, but we just outskilled them.
Imagine that in WoW, impossible.
GW2 also gets credit for actual PvP that is less about items, and more about skill.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
I call BS. I enjoy PvP in MMORPGs especially if gear matters alot. It gives you extra things to do like work for your gear progression and such and progression is one of the things that many enjoy in MMORPG. Good days of WoW were WotLK and during that timei to PvP you needed some PvE items aswell it was really good times when we PvP players did both PvE and PvP and enjoyed it. Ofcourse there's people that do not wanna work for shiet n just wanna pew pew for them there's FPS games. Heck man even MOBAs are gear dependant where you farm and then fight and when you lose or win fight you often blame the enemy being overfed. This is the beauty of it, work for your gear and destroy kids.
And probably the most satisfying feeling ever when you are undergeared and you outskill someone much better geared. Always leaves a smile on my face when i destroy a noob.
PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor.
MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice...
MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game...
Opinions?
[mod edit]
MMO pvp is about overcoming challenges. It's about preparing yourself to fight or escape at anytime. It feels damn good to see all that you've been putting together, skills, skill, gear, philosophy play out like a song.
It's true, I don't like pvp. I just like to group up with randoms and bitch about how the other side is winning because they're actually playing the game. That life's not for me, though!
PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor.
MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice...
MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game...
Opinions?
[mod edit]
MMO pvp is about overcoming challenges. It's about preparing yourself to fight or escape at anytime. It feels damn good to see all that you've been putting together, skills, skill, gear, philosophy play out like a song.
Spoken like a "hardcore" MMO pvpr. Lighten up Francis....talking games here.
OP, one of the rules of MMO "PvP" comes from EVE and states "If you are in a fair fight, you are doing it WRONG"... ^^
Not only higher levels/gear but numbers is typical of such encounters. Thats why I refuse to play games that allow/encourage such antics, these days. Always looking over ones shoulder gets tiring.
MMORPG players like PvP but only when it is on their terms at a time of their choosing.
The one and only MMO with a focus on Open World PvP that had a modicum of success in recent years was Eve. People bring up UO all the time but a developer admitted that the PvP was killing the game and Trammel saved it.
I always liked the concept of PvP in a MMORPG, but never the execution. My ideal sandbox would be a world where AoEs are indiscriminate - you want to fire your automatic rifle into battle (or toss that fireball) then friendly fire is possible. You drop the grenade (or fireball again) at your feet - guess what? - you just took damage. You die? You are really inconvenienced - you don't respawn within 10 minutes of the fight.
Unfortunately a game like this will probably never be made as it is too niche. Many people wouldn't like it as the first time the lag monster killed you it would be easy to rage quit. Heck, there is a good possibility that I wouldn't like it depending on the implementation
PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor.
MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice...
MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game...
Opinions?
You are wrong.
I engage in singlehanded PvP in the MMORPG I play in order to improve my skill. I learn more from losing than I do from winning. When I win, it is an affirmation that something I already know works. When I lose, something new is revealed to me by my opponent.
In objective-based group PvP the purpose is usually political, the outcome of which may be chaotic and unpredictable. Nietzche said "whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster". To me this means the total domination of one's opponent is not always a desirable outcome. Sometimes suppression or redirection is better. Much more can be said on this.
Playing to only always crush the enemy is about the shallowest MO I can think of, and I do enjoy PvP.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor.
MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice...
MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game...
Opinions?
[mod edit]
MMO pvp is about overcoming challenges. It's about preparing yourself to fight or escape at anytime. It feels damn good to see all that you've been putting together, skills, skill, gear, philosophy play out like a song.
Take out "gear" (vertical progression type gear ie, gear-grind) and that is exactly the type of game I would like to see.
The trouble with most MMO pvp, and probably the ones you are referring to, is that "overcoming challenges" largely equates to getting the best gear/leveling up/getting lots of money (for the best gear).
PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor.
MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice...
MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game...
Opinions?
PvP infers Player vs. Player and nothing more. You're assumption it infers a level playing field comes from your personal expectations and the kind of PvP you are used to I suppose.
While I agree level and gear should be far less of a problem in PvP the arguments you are making can be applied to numbers advantages, clever tactics, and hell even player skill itself. Combat has never been about honor, it's about winning, and you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.
The problem with level/gear advantages is most of them are based on doing non-PvP combat or can be gained if you invest enough time whether you do well or poorly in PvP. And that leads to the root problem that you have to spend hundreds of hours doing grinding that is not fun in order to be rewarded with success in PvP. While advantages like numbers, tactics, and skills require you to go out engage in player politics and actually seek to better yourself / learn something as a player from combat. Things that are dynamic, non-repetitive, are more than just a participation trophy and unlike grinding are actually fun for people who enjoy deep and engaging PvP.
IWhy should it be fair? it's a war, not a soccer game, the guy who has spent more time building his character, has an advantage, but if you're more skilled, you can still beat him, counters come in play too, terrain, etc.
In war, if you kill 5,000,000,000,000,000 enemies and are the best fighter ever and let your guard down just long enough for the freshest recruit ever to put a single bullet in you, you are dead.
The problem with your statement of "if you're more skilled, you can still beat him" is that it's demonstrably false.
In most MMOs if your level gap is higher than 10 levels and you're the lower level one it becomes literally impossible for you to beat anyone no matter how good you are and how bad they are.
It's also all but impossible even in games that boast lower power gaps. For instance in Darkfall, I don't give a crap how good you are... if you don't have the spells needed for efficient bunny hopping and your opponent does, they will get away every time they start losing. In ArcheAge if your opponent has 6-8k gearscore and you have 3k or less they will one shot you and your attacks will ping off them like they are nothing.
I'm cool with being stealthy and relying on knives in the back to win. I'm cool with being charismatic and using guild members and allies to win your fights.
But anyone, absolutely anyone who defends the absolutely ridiculous amount of grinding needed to be a successful PvPer in most games is a carebear "please give my my participation trophy" coward masquerading as a hardcore PvPer. Period. End of story. No exceptions.
PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor.
MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice...
MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game...
Opinions?
PvP... Player vs Player.... all's fair in love and war.
Let's take a step back and look at PvP in it's earlier roots. Chaotic, Unclean, Sadistic, Torture, Dangerous... common elements on the pvp scene when MMO's were being first introduced. Things like the black castle in runescape, or playes with some sort of "infamy" tag next to their name. This is the truth of the origin of PvP.
After time, game developers locked that side of most MMO's away, featuring only PvE elements with arenas and built a style around that. That is not PvP. Nor will it ever be PvP.
The models of "fair player vs player" is nothing compared to actual PvP. The new generation of MMO gamers have been coddled with their safety of PvE and thus, we get posts like this. Hence, from this day forward, I shall refer to this model as PvEP.
PvEP is indeed a flawed model designed out of PvE standards, and thus nobody in a PvE environment wants to lose. In a PvP environment, it's more about claiming rewards than it is about losing. PvEP environments are styled after monster combat, and thus, can easily be solved by "leveling up" and "getting better gear". The PvEP problem is, that you're referring to, is that many more of the PvEPer's are achievement types and not killer types. Whereas achievers in mmo's normally push the front lines of content and raids, they are instead forced into this business playschool model of PvEP to get the best gear. If you treat it as something akin to that instead, you will have far less angst against your favorite PvE games.
IWhy should it be fair? it's a war, not a soccer game, the guy who has spent more time building his character, has an advantage, but if you're more skilled, you can still beat him, counters come in play too, terrain, etc.
In war, if you kill 5,000,000,000,000,000 enemies and are the best fighter ever and let your guard down just long enough for the freshest recruit ever to put a single bullet in you, you are dead.
The problem with your statement of "if you're more skilled, you can still beat him" is that it's demonstrably false.
In most MMOs if your level gap is higher than 10 levels and you're the lower level one it becomes literally impossible for you to beat anyone no matter how good you are and how bad they are.
It's also all but impossible even in games that boast lower power gaps. For instance in Darkfall, I don't give a crap how good you are... if you don't have the spells needed for efficient bunny hopping and your opponent does, they will get away every time they start losing. In ArcheAge if your opponent has 6-8k gearscore and you have 3k or less they will one shot you and your attacks will ping off them like they are nothing.
I'm cool with being stealthy and relying on knives in the back to win. I'm cool with being charismatic and using guild members and allies to win your fights.
But anyone, absolutely anyone who defends the absolutely ridiculous amount of grinding needed to be a successful PvPer in most games is a carebear "please give my my participation trophy" coward masquerading as a hardcore PvPer. Period. End of story. No exceptions.
I guess it's hard for me to take this post seriously because in the game I play levels are really more of an afterthought: it's really not meaningful to talk about a "level gap [...] higher than 10 levels" because this usually wouldn't translate to a measurable power gap.
Indeed, there are five categories of licenses (levels) in the game I play: if you have a mining or trade level 10 greater than me, this doesn't mean you are going to be at any advantage in combat.
Even if your combat or weapons levels are 10 greater than me, a lot will depend on what equipment you are flying when we happen to meet; there isn't any one setup that is unequivocally greater than others in all tactics or circumstances.
Further, maybe I am a more patient and steady pilot than you, and just when you are moving in for the kill I surprise you with a long, accurate blaster salvo during a careless advance. Perhaps I have a better grasp of fundamentals and understand my level 3 kit can out-turn your level 13 kit so long as I stay at point blank range.
The "grinding" is there if you want it, but it is minimal. Really it's a way to measure progress, which is important to most gamers, but after a certain point that comes reasonably soon (easily on the first day or two for a dedicated gamer, certainly within the first week or month) it becomes less about what equipment you have unlocked and more about how you choose to play.
I will sometimes stand in awe when I see a pilot that has attained license 26 fly past, but I'm under no illusion that the number will determine the outcome of our future PvP battles.
This is my poetic way of saying it's important to visibly recognize the grinding that players have done, but not let that determine the outcome of PvP combat while also not limiting the results to mere "cosmetic" changes. The game I play walks this path very well. That's been my experience, and I wouldn't be surprised if some other games have found a middle ground as well.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Vendetta Online is a niche MMO when compared to niche MMOs. When I talk about Wurm, Darkfall, Mortal Online etc. people chime in and know what I'm talking about. I also see other people start conversations about them all the time. I found Vendetta Online when I specifically looked for an MMO like Freelancer, and I've never heard anyone but you talk about it since.
So saying MMOs don't have a power gap because of... Vendetta Online? I don't think that holds water. The vast majority of MMOs follow a WoW model where 10+ levels literally means that it is impossible to damage your enemy faster than their health regenerates, and there is a significant power gap in every single even semi-popular MMO I've ever tried.
If there were an MMO that had a population of over "30-50" (As of 2007 apparently) players at a time and a non-significant power gap I'm pretty sure I would know about it given that I've been looking for a game like that for over a decade.
Vendetta Online is a niche MMO when compared to niche MMOs. When I talk about Wurm, Darkfall, Mortal Online etc. people chime in and know what I'm talking about. I also see other people start conversations about them all the time. I found Vendetta Online when I specifically looked for an MMO like Freelancer, and I've never heard anyone but you talk about it since.
So saying MMOs don't have a power gap because of... Vendetta Online? I don't think that holds water. The vast majority of MMOs follow a WoW model where 10+ levels literally means that it is impossible to damage your enemy faster than their health regenerates, and there is a significant power gap in every single even semi-popular MMO I've ever tried.
If there were an MMO that had a population of over "30-50" (As of 2007 apparently) players at a time and a non-significant power gap I'm pretty sure I would know about it given that I've been looking for a game like that for over a decade.
I think that's because it is virtually unknown. There are more than 30-50 people playing it. It is currently installed on between half a million to a million Android devices:
It has a marketing budget of zero, relying more or less on word-of-mouth to spread. Occasionally, it does get picked up by other brands because of its platform-agnostic philosophy, going so far as to be featured in nationwide TV spots:
I may be its most vocal proponent here, but don't let the lack of social reinforcement compared to Mortal Online, Wurm, or Darkfall fool you; it's been a thing since 2002.
The more you know!
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor.
MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice...
MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game...
Opinions?
MMO PVP has always been a joke. Give me FPS PVP any day over mmo PVP. I always believed that the people that really like mmo PVP sucked at FPS PVP. That's why you have so much ganking in the U.S. In Asia its totally different as if you are called out for killing lowbies you are hunted down to a point where you have to make a new character. Here mmo PVPER'S just seem to be a bunch of scumbags.
Comments
MMORPG and, specifically, open world PvP doesn't even control the number of players on each side. That's the uneven playing ground I meant, sorry if I didn't make that completely clear.
And I didn't take your post as antagonistic at all- as I said, I was playing Devil's advocate to spark some more debate- so I tend to agree with you in that loadouts and such can give a player an advantage over another (even if I hadn't, I think you presented your dissenting opinion in a very respectful manner!) I just think that it's more palatable to most modern-day gamers than being ganked by 5 folks at the same time.
In my true, non-advocate opinion, I belive that preference comes full circle to the issue of gamers wanting to play "with" others without actually interacting with them. It's something I don't particularly understand, as the point of multiplayer is the interactions between, well, multiple players. Those that hate the idea of another gamer influencing their experience balks even harder at the possibility of a large number of players coming together to influence their specific experience.
A premium gun is something each individual player can use to their advantage. Being heavily outnumbered isn't, as it requires more than one individual to participate. I think that's an important distinction for many players.
Because it really isn't the players fault since almost all MMOs uses this mechanics. Guildwars had an open playing field and were very popular with PvPers for more than a few years.
Now, personally do I want some kind of progression as well, my preferred progression is when a really excellent player with a new toon barely beat a lousy playing toon with max stats and max gear.
I think MMO PvP either need to be greatly revamped or just skipped since such a small percentage of the playerbase bother with it. Compare that with FPS games where most players prefer PvP, so I am certain PvP in itself isn't the problem, just the lousy implementation in most MMOs. The game that have good PvP also have a far greater percentage of it's playerbase playing it (like DaoC and GW).
They are actually hardcore pvers who enjoy beating up other players who are not as "good" at pve as they are. Someone who really likes pvp couldn't be bothered spending hundreds of hours doing pve before they can actually have fun- and then if they can just kill everyone easily because their gear is so good it wouldn't be much fun anyway.
MMO PvP is nowhere near actual pvp like battlefield, arma or even games like mount and blade
With that said. EVE Online offers REAL pvp. Sure some of its based on ship+load out. But even a noob can go out and PvP if they know what they are doing and in a proper group in a voice chat together. It isn't about the best ship or best items. I've taken down people 2 vs 3 that had better ships than me and my team mate had, but we just outskilled them.
Imagine that in WoW, impossible.
GW2 also gets credit for actual PvP that is less about items, and more about skill.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
I enjoy PvP in MMORPGs especially if gear matters alot. It gives you extra things to do like work for your gear progression and such and progression is one of the things that many enjoy in MMORPG.
Good days of WoW were WotLK and during that timei to PvP you needed some PvE items aswell it was really good times when we PvP players did both PvE and PvP and enjoyed it. Ofcourse there's people that do not wanna work for shiet n just wanna pew pew for them there's FPS games. Heck man even MOBAs are gear dependant where you farm and then fight and when you lose or win fight you often blame the enemy being overfed. This is the beauty of it, work for your gear and destroy kids.
And probably the most satisfying feeling ever when you are undergeared and you outskill someone much better geared. Always leaves a smile on my face when i destroy a noob.
MMO pvp is about overcoming challenges. It's about preparing yourself to fight or escape at anytime. It feels damn good to see all that you've been putting together, skills, skill, gear, philosophy play out like a song.
Not only higher levels/gear but numbers is typical of such encounters. Thats why I refuse to play games that allow/encourage such antics, these days. Always looking over ones shoulder gets tiring.
The one and only MMO with a focus on Open World PvP that had a modicum of success in recent years was Eve. People bring up UO all the time but a developer admitted that the PvP was killing the game and Trammel saved it.
Unfortunately a game like this will probably never be made as it is too niche. Many people wouldn't like it as the first time the lag monster killed you it would be easy to rage quit. Heck, there is a good possibility that I wouldn't like it depending on the implementation
I engage in singlehanded PvP in the MMORPG I play in order to improve my skill. I learn more from losing than I do from winning. When I win, it is an affirmation that something I already know works. When I lose, something new is revealed to me by my opponent.
In objective-based group PvP the purpose is usually political, the outcome of which may be chaotic and unpredictable. Nietzche said "whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster". To me this means the total domination of one's opponent is not always a desirable outcome. Sometimes suppression or redirection is better. Much more can be said on this.
Playing to only always crush the enemy is about the shallowest MO I can think of, and I do enjoy PvP.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
The trouble with most MMO pvp, and probably the ones you are referring to, is that "overcoming challenges" largely equates to getting the best gear/leveling up/getting lots of money (for the best gear).
While I agree level and gear should be far less of a problem in PvP the arguments you are making can be applied to numbers advantages, clever tactics, and hell even player skill itself. Combat has never been about honor, it's about winning, and you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.
The problem with level/gear advantages is most of them are based on doing non-PvP combat or can be gained if you invest enough time whether you do well or poorly in PvP. And that leads to the root problem that you have to spend hundreds of hours doing grinding that is not fun in order to be rewarded with success in PvP. While advantages like numbers, tactics, and skills require you to go out engage in player politics and actually seek to better yourself / learn something as a player from combat. Things that are dynamic, non-repetitive, are more than just a participation trophy and unlike grinding are actually fun for people who enjoy deep and engaging PvP.
The problem with your statement of "if you're more skilled, you can still beat him" is that it's demonstrably false.
In most MMOs if your level gap is higher than 10 levels and you're the lower level one it becomes literally impossible for you to beat anyone no matter how good you are and how bad they are.
It's also all but impossible even in games that boast lower power gaps. For instance in Darkfall, I don't give a crap how good you are... if you don't have the spells needed for efficient bunny hopping and your opponent does, they will get away every time they start losing. In ArcheAge if your opponent has 6-8k gearscore and you have 3k or less they will one shot you and your attacks will ping off them like they are nothing.
I'm cool with being stealthy and relying on knives in the back to win. I'm cool with being charismatic and using guild members and allies to win your fights.
But anyone, absolutely anyone who defends the absolutely ridiculous amount of grinding needed to be a successful PvPer in most games is a carebear "please give my my participation trophy" coward masquerading as a hardcore PvPer. Period. End of story. No exceptions.
all's fair in love and war.
Let's take a step back and look at PvP in it's earlier roots.
Chaotic, Unclean, Sadistic, Torture, Dangerous... common elements on the pvp scene when MMO's were being first introduced. Things like the black castle in runescape, or playes with some sort of "infamy" tag next to their name. This is the truth of the origin of PvP.
After time, game developers locked that side of most MMO's away, featuring only PvE elements with arenas and built a style around that. That is not PvP. Nor will it ever be PvP.
The models of "fair player vs player" is nothing compared to actual PvP. The new generation of MMO gamers have been coddled with their safety of PvE and thus, we get posts like this. Hence, from this day forward, I shall refer to this model as PvEP.
PvEP is indeed a flawed model designed out of PvE standards, and thus nobody in a PvE environment wants to lose. In a PvP environment, it's more about claiming rewards than it is about losing. PvEP environments are styled after monster combat, and thus, can easily be solved by "leveling up" and "getting better gear". The PvEP problem is, that you're referring to, is that many more of the PvEPer's are achievement types and not killer types. Whereas achievers in mmo's normally push the front lines of content and raids, they are instead forced into this business playschool model of PvEP to get the best gear. If you treat it as something akin to that instead, you will have far less angst against your favorite PvE games.
Indeed, there are five categories of licenses (levels) in the game I play: if you have a mining or trade level 10 greater than me, this doesn't mean you are going to be at any advantage in combat.
Even if your combat or weapons levels are 10 greater than me, a lot will depend on what equipment you are flying when we happen to meet; there isn't any one setup that is unequivocally greater than others in all tactics or circumstances.
Further, maybe I am a more patient and steady pilot than you, and just when you are moving in for the kill I surprise you with a long, accurate blaster salvo during a careless advance. Perhaps I have a better grasp of fundamentals and understand my level 3 kit can out-turn your level 13 kit so long as I stay at point blank range.
The "grinding" is there if you want it, but it is minimal. Really it's a way to measure progress, which is important to most gamers, but after a certain point that comes reasonably soon (easily on the first day or two for a dedicated gamer, certainly within the first week or month) it becomes less about what equipment you have unlocked and more about how you choose to play.
I will sometimes stand in awe when I see a pilot that has attained license 26 fly past, but I'm under no illusion that the number will determine the outcome of our future PvP battles.
This is my poetic way of saying it's important to visibly recognize the grinding that players have done, but not let that determine the outcome of PvP combat while also not limiting the results to mere "cosmetic" changes. The game I play walks this path very well. That's been my experience, and I wouldn't be surprised if some other games have found a middle ground as well.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
So saying MMOs don't have a power gap because of... Vendetta Online? I don't think that holds water. The vast majority of MMOs follow a WoW model where 10+ levels literally means that it is impossible to damage your enemy faster than their health regenerates, and there is a significant power gap in every single even semi-popular MMO I've ever tried.
If there were an MMO that had a population of over "30-50" (As of 2007 apparently) players at a time and a non-significant power gap I'm pretty sure I would know about it given that I've been looking for a game like that for over a decade.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.guildsoftware.vendetta
It is getting some recognition in Gear VR circles:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GearVR/comments/5d8fmm/why_isnt_everyone_with_a_gear_vr_playing_vendetta/
Here are some recent articles on the game:
http://www.mmobro.com/vendetta-online-eves-unsung-competitor/
http://uploadvr.com/vendetta-online-gear-vr/
http://massivelyop.com/2016/03/10/vendetta-online-demos-its-vr-capabilities-at-gdc/
...an in-depth look at its lead developer:
https://www.milwaukeemag.com/2013/12/13/VendettaandtheLifeandHardTimesoftheSpaceSim/
It has a marketing budget of zero, relying more or less on word-of-mouth to spread. Occasionally, it does get picked up by other brands because of its platform-agnostic philosophy, going so far as to be featured in nationwide TV spots:
I may be its most vocal proponent here, but don't let the lack of social reinforcement compared to Mortal Online, Wurm, or Darkfall fool you; it's been a thing since 2002.
The more you know!
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
I know plenty of PVP players who love gear dependent games...Assuming they have the superior gear than their opponent.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"