In all fairness what you are looking for in Pantheon already exists in the genre. What changed was the player base's mindset. Not the design of the games that are played. There are plenty of games that cater to the group first mentality. Even Everquest and Asheron's Call had solo builds and the ability to solo content. What Pantheon is offering is not unique nor funded well enough to warrant a considerable change to the genre. Mob A.I. looks the same as in other games in the genre and that is where the real change needs to take place to evolve the genre and require a real step up in challenge and group coordination. Good thing is, there are a few games in development that will take the genre to the next level and leave the relic games in the rear view. I hope for Pantheon's fans the game is a success but it is just a game. Not the savior for the genre.
You can't be serious. Do you really not know or remember that in Everquest, everything from buying and selling, to traveling, to healing, to gaining experience and items, to recovering one's corpse, to exp recovery and more, were all designed to require interdependence? Almost none of those components exist in modern games in any similar form. That it's only the player's mindset couldn't be further from the truth.
It almost sounds like you haven't played an MMORPG that existed prior to 2010.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say Pantheon would be the savior of the genre, but pretending Pantheon is no different from games that "already exists in the genre", just makes you sound uninformed.
Yeah I'd seriously like to know where the "plenty" of other newer PvE MMOs are that have a majority of group based content, because I've been looking Other than EQ or P99 what I see are titles with 5-10% of instanced dungeons or those that are PvP based.
No one said anything about 'newer' Everquest is still running. Asheron's Call is still running. Project Gorgon is running. SkySaga is running, FF XIV is running, FFXI is still running. World's Adrift. ESO has great group content. As does GW2.
Why does a game have to be 'newer' to be played?
Because a lot of us have played for a while, including EQ and want something newer. EQ it'sef has become far more a solo affair. AC? Being closed and also ancient. PG is pretty rough and doesn't really need a group other than small portions. The rest, no. I'm not saying they don't have good group content but there isn't much of it, not as the majority at least.
The issue isn't having ANY group content, but how much is there and how well the group needs to work together. Take ESO. If they could find a way to have the rest of the world be like the dungeons I'd be there, especially since they made a great move making the whole world available. Unfortunately the end result was more of the world soloable. I'm not besmirching others for liking this but a newer MMORPG that emphasizes group-based PvE content is not the norm, or available ATM.
In all fairness what you are looking for in Pantheon already exists in the genre. What changed was the player base's mindset. Not the design of the games that are played. There are plenty of games that cater to the group first mentality. Even Everquest and Asheron's Call had solo builds and the ability to solo content. What Pantheon is offering is not unique nor funded well enough to warrant a considerable change to the genre. Mob A.I. looks the same as in other games in the genre and that is where the real change needs to take place to evolve the genre and require a real step up in challenge and group coordination. Good thing is, there are a few games in development that will take the genre to the next level and leave the relic games in the rear view. I hope for Pantheon's fans the game is a success but it is just a game. Not the savior for the genre.
You can't be serious. Do you really not know or remember that in Everquest, everything from buying and selling, to traveling, to healing, to gaining experience and items, to recovering one's corpse, to exp recovery and more, were all designed to require interdependence? Almost none of those components exist in modern games in any similar form. That it's only the player's mindset couldn't be further from the truth.
It almost sounds like you haven't played an MMORPG that existed prior to 2010.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say Pantheon would be the savior of the genre, but pretending Pantheon is no different from games that "already exists in the genre", just makes you sound uninformed.
You can't be serious.
You mean all those things that are in Gloria Victis and Project Gorgon?
Condescension once more from you. For being a champion of the game you are way too defensive about it. Makes you sound like an elitist and/or just pompous.
My first MMORPG was Lineage. I still play with my brother over VPN back home in Songpa. My second MMO was Asheron's Call. A game I consider the greatest in the genre's history.
I notice you conveniently left out any regard to the mob A.I. in Pantheon because as we all know and have seen it is the same old weak A.I. that has been present in MMO's since the old school games.
There are a few in development that will blow you away with what they are doing and how they are approaching A.I. It makes all the difference. Cloud based analytical A.I. with predictive behavior habits is something you will see as early as late 2018. I didn't put word in your mouth I was calling it like I see it. Yet you put words in my mouth? tsk tsk You carry on hero. Fight the good fight! Cheers!
Let me get this straight. You went out of your way to make derogatory remarks by throwing a red herring at me (Pantheon won't be the savior of the genre). Then you went further to demean the game and it's fans by suggesting that what we look forward to in Pantheon already exists in the genre, but had to cite two games that are still in alpha testing. Now you come with another misdirect by suggesting I'm somehow avoid the topic of AI, something not currently being discussed. Are you inebriated?
If you want to label my correcting the record as defensive, have at it; but no one is buying these fantastic tales of your super secret insider knowledge about upcoming games, and you should be embarrassed to use that en lieu of a real argument.
It's not always about convenience in modern gaming. It's about making the time productive and engaging.
Talking with your group-mates isn't engaging? Since when?
Have gamers really gotten to the point where they require constant stimulation, where even something specifically called "Down Time" has to be "productive"?
Are we so disengaged from each other in this genre, that the idea of just relaxing for a beat and, you know... talking, is unacceptable?
It's not always about convenience in modern gaming. It's about making the time productive and engaging.
Talking with your group-mates isn't engaging? Since when?
Have gamers really gotten to the point where they require constant stimulation and even something specifically called "Down Time" has to be "productive"?
Are we so disengaged from each other in this genre, that the idea of just sitting and, you know... talking is unbearable?
Wow, how people have changed.
In this day and age(as has been the case for too long), "down time" is frowned upon.
@Torval ; and I group in games all the time and we chat a lot. Not sure that was what he meant.
As a general statement, I am under the impression that if someone shows cautious skepticism towards this game the only rebuttal people have is to try and tear either the poster and/or their statements down.
It is one thing to be a fan, it is another to a be fanatical fan. (For those that do not know) Fanatical means: Filled with excessive and single-minded zeal
I'm not fanatical, or excessively zealous, I just don't see the problem in people taking a break for a minute or three to chill and chat, or grab a bite, or a drink, or go to the restroom, or let the dog out, or whatever. I don't know why something like that would have to be "more engaging and productive".
Perhaps I didn't understand the intent in their comment, but as I'm not a mind-reader, that's what I took from it.
It's not always about convenience in modern gaming. It's about making the time productive and engaging.
Talking with your group-mates isn't engaging? Since when?
Have gamers really gotten to the point where they require constant stimulation and even something specifically called "Down Time" has to be "productive"?
Are we so disengaged from each other in this genre, that the idea of just sitting and, you know... talking is unbearable?
Wow, how people have changed.
Did I say talking with group-mates wasn't engaging? No, that was some stupid idea you made up and added to fit your myopic narrative.
What are we talking about in the group? I didn't log in to the game to listen to you blather on about smalltalk to a captive audience. If you want to talk about the group build, strategy, skills, and where we're going with the adventure, fine. I do that in my mmos already. Is that not good enough? What sort of talking do you need to do to your captive audience that you're not getting now.
What needs to be discussed for 5 minutes between every single battle?
Whoah... ease down, Ripley. You're just grinding metal.
First of all, I wasn't attacking you. So please show me the same courtesy. Okay? Thank you.
I was more reacting to the idea that something like "Down Time" would have to be "productive" or "more engaging" to be acceptable.
As for whether you said talking with group mates wasn't engaging, well... I don't know about you, but in my experience, and many others (since we were in a group, having down-time) down-time is often associated with people relaxing, talking, etc. while folks get their MP/HP back. It's just kinda what happened naturally, and no one seemed to be bothered by it. It was rather enjoyable, actually. Apparently, I was never in a group with you.
For your second paragraph, that's a bunch of overly-defensive and rather ego-centric nonsense, and some kind of strawman about "captive audiences" that I'm just going to ignore, beyond saying "it isn't all about you or what you want", and please don't make assumptions about me. You don't know me.
Regarding your last statement, that's a strawman. I never indicated downtime between every battle, nor did I ever say "5 minutes".
Calm the hell down, man. We're just having a discussion here.
Downtime. As it exists to either take a timeout from the action or an IRL action will exist whether others in the group want it or not. It is known! The more you add to a group the more likely there will be more downtime.
In years past, there simply did not exist a mechanic to remedy the problem that whomever in the group was not taking a break to pass the time. Talking/strategizing were done in those times. With the easement of recent iterations of WoW clones and such, downtime or lulls became more infrequent by design.
Now there exists many different ways to stay engaged in the game and your character and group. I think lengths should be taken to ensure this happens. To come up with something that acts as buffs/cures/resists etc. incentivises it for everyone.
I get that some players don't want to stop..for anything. Grind it out so to speak. It may be they have a small amount of time to play or they simply like staying engaged. Others want a slower experience or crawl even. The trick, in my eyes, is to bridge this gap to accomodate both.
I don't think it's the software that is holding good MMO's back. It is lack of vision.
@Torval ; and I group in games all the time and we chat a lot. Not sure that was what he meant.
As a general statement, I am under the impression that if someone shows cautious skepticism towards this game the only rebuttal people have is to try and tear either the poster and/or their statements down.
It is one thing to be a fan, it is another to a be fanatical fan. (For those that do not know) Fanatical means: Filled with excessive and single-minded zeal
Please, stop with the victim playing, the misinformation and the misrepresentation. Few people here are beyond reason if you come forth with a real argument, in a productive manner, without all the pretense and condescension.
No one is worried about skepticism. What will get your arguments torn down, is passing off fiction as fact like claiming Pantheon's design regarding player interaction will provide nothing beyond what is currently being offered. That is an objectively false statement and deserves scrutiny.
There's also a huge difference between a game that allows player interaction, and one that promotes it. A number of people in both of these active threads are intentionally conflating these two issues. Nobody is claiming it's impossible to chat or interact in MMOs today. That's another straw man.
What people following Pantheon are largely hoping for, is a game that requires a greater degree of cooperative play. We want an environment that not only allows this sort of interaction, but actively encourages it by designing a dangerous world with classes and mechanics that hinder self-sufficiency.
Soloing stuff all the way to max level with ease has made the past 10 years boring for me. I wish people played old school MMORPGs more because people now a days cannot handle extreme boss fights in FF14 when honestly it's not hard at all. Why is it hard for most? Because people are horrible at teamwork and understanding their class past a button smash. Only if the game was actually geared towards team work from level 10 and up would you see a better player base. People who played games like classic EQ were forced / promoted to learn by working together and improving our skills through group content.
I think some heavy debate is expected when a games tenants are known, due to the developer stating them, and yet some try to convince fans of the game that its tenants shouldn't be that way. There will of course be adjustments by VR regarding mob battle duration (where the 30 seconds came from) and downtime. We can debate all day whether they should or how long they should be but they will both be there, per the comments of the developers themselves. It's a bit fruitless to try to argue the point and even if it grows, the fruit tends to taste sour
On the subject of downtime and duration, I think the expectation that every group will take the same time to kill and wait the same amount of time to recover is a misrepresentation of the system. There is give and take depending on whether the last slot is, say, an Enchanter, Bard, or neither in the form of another DPS. A caster-heavy group may opt to bring an Enchanter rather than a Bard or another DPS because of the mana regen they bring which would speed up the downtime but may elongate the kill time. IMO the addition of longer kill times and recovery times adds a dynamic especially with so many classes being available in Pantheon. That said, I don't think either time is meant to be too long, but rather a sliding scale between the two.
On the topic of down time, I am very much for it in many ways. Such as getting back your magic or what ever type of power you have burned out of while lvling or in a dungeon. I am not an immersion nazi but it makes sense that you would have to rest after so many battles and if you have been playing for a while it does give you time to banter with your group and give your fingers a rest. That being said I don't like the idea of down time when I want to battle (xp parties or other things) but can't get a group together for 30 min to an hour because guild mates are busy or off line. I know there is crafting but I think it's silly to have to wait so long to do what you want.
So I am curious about what they will do with what I see as a problem. I am sure people may see this as a non issue and welcome it as a social challenge in the game but I am not big on social challenges getting in the way of my xping time. In games like AC and PG if I can't get a group together I can still lvl on my own all be it much slower. Not saying pantheon should do this, just was wondering if they will do something to help the issue or if they find it to be a non issue and want it that way.
If they follow the EQ model on progression, and from what I've seen from streams, it would be just as you described minus the areas meant for groups. What portion of the world map that is meant for groups is anyone's guess but I imagine there will be content for someone to solo to max level. Just not 90% of the content, as seems to be the norm with most titles.
As you mentioned before about PG I may have to give that another look. I did play it for a while and enjoyed how many systems there were but my interests went elsewhere. If there is indeed a lot of opportunity for group play that would be great.
I really don't see how having a downtime of few minutes every 15 minutes is such a bad thing. I just don't understand why all the drama.
We are not talking about sitting after every fight, that's not what Pantheon is going to be, we are talking about resting every now and then. Don't you need to relax every 15-20 minutes of intense game play? Maybe stretch your legs, grab a coffee, give a kiss and a hug to your other half. Is it really such a game breaker?
When I was playing Everquest the item snobbery had not yet set in. People could inspect you which bravo the game allowed you to turn off.....nyeh..... you see the message so and so was inspecting you. However groups did not turn you away if you queued up properly and it was your turn several hours later.
I highly doubt in this age where they parse everything the tolerance to basic gear is going to be that kind nor will they be that free with invites. I know I sound like I am being unkind to my future fellow players of Pantheon but I think in the years since Everquest the genre has expanded and many players play for different metrics note not reasons.
When I was playing Everquest the item snobbery had not yet set in. People could inspect you which bravo the game allowed you to turn off.....nyeh..... you see the message so and so was inspecting you. However groups did not turn you away if you queued up properly and it was your turn several hours later.
I highly doubt in this age where they parse everything the tolerance to basic gear is going to be that kind nor will they be that free with invites. I know I sound like I am being unkind to my future fellow players of Pantheon but I think in the years since Everquest the genre has expanded and many players play for different metrics note not reasons.
Well it depends. Today MMOs are gear centric, while in EQ you could have the best gear in the world but if you messed up a pull there was no amount of gear that could save your ass. Players skills > Gear
I went over this stream a few nights ago after I saw this post. And I must say. I was actually pleasantly surprised at how far they've come along. I couldn't help hear when Brad in the steam mentioned about "Solo content" . As someone on an Oceanic timezone with extremely weird play hours to my US friends. That was one thing that worried me in this game. That I'd end up floundering around on my own during the off hours.
I'm certainly not expecting a full blown "Solo experience" But definitely interested to see how much will be added into the game. There will always be times you won't be able to find a group or friends are offline etc.
Following this game and I sincerely hope it does well. Even if I don't end up playing it.
-Jinxy
As a game designer you cannot interprete what will happen when the player base is set lose. I'm sure the EQ developers didn't design druids to do their infamous quart kites but we as player found that possible - thereby creating solo content for us selves. Followed shortly by wizards doing the same, but with a bit more difficulty ... I'm sure they didn't mean Butcherblock mountains harbor to be guardless and infested with a Druid or two
what I'm trying to say is, there will always be solo play - and VR said they didn't want encourage it nor fight it, so wait and see, there will be plenty to do on your own - but the shining moments will be with friends, guildies or people you meet in your adventures
Comments
Because a lot of us have played for a while, including EQ and want something newer. EQ it'sef has become far more a solo affair. AC? Being closed and also ancient. PG is pretty rough and doesn't really need a group other than small portions. The rest, no. I'm not saying they don't have good group content but there isn't much of it, not as the majority at least.
The issue isn't having ANY group content, but how much is there and how well the group needs to work together. Take ESO. If they could find a way to have the rest of the world be like the dungeons I'd be there, especially since they made a great move making the whole world available. Unfortunately the end result was more of the world soloable. I'm not besmirching others for liking this but a newer MMORPG that emphasizes group-based PvE content is not the norm, or available ATM.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
If you want to label my correcting the record as defensive, have at it; but no one is buying these fantastic tales of your super secret insider knowledge about upcoming games, and you should be embarrassed to use that en lieu of a real argument.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Have gamers really gotten to the point where they require constant stimulation, where even something specifically called "Down Time" has to be "productive"?
Are we so disengaged from each other in this genre, that the idea of just relaxing for a beat and, you know... talking, is unacceptable?
Wow, how people have changed.
In this day and age(as has been the case for too long), "down time" is frowned upon.
Can't get my pen to write in this space.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Perhaps I didn't understand the intent in their comment, but as I'm not a mind-reader, that's what I took from it.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Whoah... ease down, Ripley. You're just grinding metal.
First of all, I wasn't attacking you. So please show me the same courtesy. Okay? Thank you.
I was more reacting to the idea that something like "Down Time" would have to be "productive" or "more engaging" to be acceptable.
As for whether you said talking with group mates wasn't engaging, well... I don't know about you, but in my experience, and many others (since we were in a group, having down-time) down-time is often associated with people relaxing, talking, etc. while folks get their MP/HP back. It's just kinda what happened naturally, and no one seemed to be bothered by it. It was rather enjoyable, actually. Apparently, I was never in a group with you.
For your second paragraph, that's a bunch of overly-defensive and rather ego-centric nonsense, and some kind of strawman about "captive audiences" that I'm just going to ignore, beyond saying "it isn't all about you or what you want", and please don't make assumptions about me. You don't know me.
Regarding your last statement, that's a strawman. I never indicated downtime between every battle, nor did I ever say "5 minutes".
Calm the hell down, man. We're just having a discussion here.
In years past, there simply did not exist a mechanic to remedy the problem that whomever in the group was not taking a break to pass the time. Talking/strategizing were done in those times. With the easement of recent iterations of WoW clones and such, downtime or lulls became more infrequent by design.
Now there exists many different ways to stay engaged in the game and your character and group. I think lengths should be taken to ensure this happens. To come up with something that acts as buffs/cures/resists etc. incentivises it for everyone.
I get that some players don't want to stop..for anything. Grind it out so to speak. It may be they have a small amount of time to play or they simply like staying engaged. Others want a slower experience or crawl even. The trick, in my eyes, is to bridge this gap to accomodate both.
I don't think it's the software that is holding good MMO's back. It is lack of vision.
No one is worried about skepticism. What will get your arguments torn down, is passing off fiction as fact like claiming Pantheon's design regarding player interaction will provide nothing beyond what is currently being offered. That is an objectively false statement and deserves scrutiny.
There's also a huge difference between a game that allows player interaction, and one that promotes it. A number of people in both of these active threads are intentionally conflating these two issues. Nobody is claiming it's impossible to chat or interact in MMOs today. That's another straw man.
What people following Pantheon are largely hoping for, is a game that requires a greater degree of cooperative play. We want an environment that not only allows this sort of interaction, but actively encourages it by designing a dangerous world with classes and mechanics that hinder self-sufficiency.
There is a huge difference in those two designs.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Read 'em and weep!
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I think some heavy debate is expected when a games tenants are known, due to the developer stating them, and yet some try to convince fans of the game that its tenants shouldn't be that way. There will of course be adjustments by VR regarding mob battle duration (where the 30 seconds came from) and downtime. We can debate all day whether they should or how long they should be but they will both be there, per the comments of the developers themselves. It's a bit fruitless to try to argue the point and even if it grows, the fruit tends to taste sour
On the subject of downtime and duration, I think the expectation that every group will take the same time to kill and wait the same amount of time to recover is a misrepresentation of the system. There is give and take depending on whether the last slot is, say, an Enchanter, Bard, or neither in the form of another DPS. A caster-heavy group may opt to bring an Enchanter rather than a Bard or another DPS because of the mana regen they bring which would speed up the downtime but may elongate the kill time. IMO the addition of longer kill times and recovery times adds a dynamic especially with so many classes being available in Pantheon. That said, I don't think either time is meant to be too long, but rather a sliding scale between the two.
If they follow the EQ model on progression, and from what I've seen from streams, it would be just as you described minus the areas meant for groups. What portion of the world map that is meant for groups is anyone's guess but I imagine there will be content for someone to solo to max level. Just not 90% of the content, as seems to be the norm with most titles.
As you mentioned before about PG I may have to give that another look. I did play it for a while and enjoyed how many systems there were but my interests went elsewhere. If there is indeed a lot of opportunity for group play that would be great.
I really don't see how having a downtime of few minutes every 15 minutes is such a bad thing.
I just don't understand why all the drama.
We are not talking about sitting after every fight, that's not what Pantheon is going to be, we are talking about resting every now and then.
Don't you need to relax every 15-20 minutes of intense game play?
Maybe stretch your legs, grab a coffee, give a kiss and a hug to your other half.
Is it really such a game breaker?
I highly doubt in this age where they parse everything the tolerance to basic gear is going to be that kind nor will they be that free with invites. I know I sound like I am being unkind to my future fellow players of Pantheon but I think in the years since Everquest the genre has expanded and many players play for different metrics note not reasons.
Today MMOs are gear centric, while in EQ you could have the best gear in the world but if you messed up a pull there was no amount of gear that could save your ass.
Players skills > Gear
That's why I want this kind of games back.
As a game designer you cannot interprete what will happen when the player base is set lose. I'm sure the EQ developers didn't design druids to do their infamous quart kites
what I'm trying to say is, there will always be solo play - and VR said they didn't want encourage it nor fight it, so wait and see, there will be plenty to do on your own - but the shining moments will be with friends, guildies or people you meet in your adventures