I was playing LotRO when the Isengard expansion went live. Level cap was raised for that expansion from 60 to 70. 12 hrs after the expansion was released, I saw people in Moria at level 70.
How do you develop with that in mind? Throttle all players so they require minimum a month? Scale combat so it takes ten minutes to kill trash mobs?Or do you step away from that player group and see how long the masses took to level cap and develop the next expansion with that in mind?
Some of us have been playing MMO's for near 20 years now. Devs should not look at me and say, "yea, this is the guy I want to template my game on". Most people don't play an MMO 30+ hrs a week. When I immerse, that's my average. Does that mean games are easy for me and I should piss an moan like a selfish asshat? No, it means I have a lifestyle that is not remotely connected to mainstream and I can suck it up when I feel like the anomaly I am.
long story short, it aint always about you, buttercup.
I feel like they are modeling it for the guy that plays 2 hours a week instead and that isn't better.
The thing is that when players can get the last 10 levels in 12 hours the leveling speed is so fast that most of the players will tire soon.
It might be that it is time to get rid of levels but if they are to stay they must pace out the content far better and get the time it takes to level just right.
If a casual player wont gain a level in a week he/she will probably get bored and leave but if you let that casual player gain several levels in the few hours he/she plays you instead will loose anyone playing slightly more soon.
So I think 1 lvl a week for a casual is the right way to go if you are trying to have both casuals and people who play longer in the same game. Current leveling speed is too fast but you should be able to cut it down to half or a third and still keep the casuals without losing the ones that play more. Early Wow proved that it works with lots of players, they have increased their leveling speed a lot since.
That wont help with no-lifers but it is close to impossible to get both no-lifers and super casuals in the same game, I think Vanilla Wow (and possibly TBC Wow) is the only MMO pulling it off ever.
EQ did maintain that feel of gameplay during raiding.
How could you even make yourself type such a ridiculous statement? The raiding endgame and the single group play we did while leveling up where the same? Really? In all the years that I've been bitching about the shitty endgame in EQ you're the first person who has tried to tell me that it was actually just the same as the earlier part of the game.
No, the early and mid-level gameplay in EQ was enjoyable and was what hooked all the people who got hooked on EQ. The end-game raiding was miserable and crappy and although a large number of people put up with it because there was nothing else; I am certain that only a small percentage of people actually liked it.
EQ did maintain that feel of gameplay during raiding.
How could you even make yourself type such a ridiculous statement? The raiding endgame and the single group play we did while leveling up where the same? Really? In all the years that I've been bitching about the shitty endgame in EQ you're the first person who has tried to tell me that it was actually just the same as the earlier part of the game.
No, the early and mid-level gameplay in EQ was enjoyable and was what hooked all the people who got hooked on EQ. The end-game raiding was miserable and crappy and although a large number of people put up with it because there was nothing else; I am certain that only a small percentage of people actually liked it.
That is also my opinion even though I know some people like raiding a lot. Most people these days tell you that there should be no difficulty in any part of the game but raiding or grouping because that is all that matters. That is the real game so to speak. For me finding out how to solo in a solo unfriendly game was more fun. It was also a lot more fun exploring to different zones and finding places no one else really bothered to try to find. Lesser Faydark had a couple good camps and I only had to share them very rarely as few knew about them. A lot of the dungeons like Befallen, Blackburrow, Runnyeye, and Guk had traps and fake walls. They were often intricate and dangerous mazes. This in the problem with things like maps. You can't explore and find things. They are already presented to everyone. I would rather they slow the leveling process down to a crawl so you would never reach endgame or it would take a really long time so I could just enjoy the content more. I would also like them to remove maps, fast travel, etc. that rush you through the content and cheapen the experience/danger/excitement of exploration/adventure.
I've had this discussion many times and most people can't explain an acceptable solution or provide a good answer to this major issue that game developers/designers face in MMORPGs.
Does time equate to difficulty? If so, then how does a brand new player who is interested in playing the game 3-6 months after the game has launched EVER catch up to a player who has been playing consistently at launch? If majority of the player base has reached mid-game and new players wants to play with other people, how is that bridge gapped in an intuitive way?
This is the core issue that most MMORPGs face that WoW addressed in the most acceptable way that players enjoy.
Older MMORPGS tried to fix this by introducing features that most people didn't like
1. EXP boost potions 2. Changing Elite mobs into normal ones (reducing HP and constant game balancing) 3. Changing the EXP curves to make it easier in early zones 4. Companions or NPC assists 5. Bypass specific areas via soloable content 6. Special quests to give you legendaries or strong items (enough stats to kill elites and bosses without partying). 7. Instant boosts to max or near max levels 8. Specific newbie skills/buffers 9. Create auto pathing (future proofing for new players after the player base matures).
World of Warcraft is popular (continues to make tons of money) because it's easy for new players to get into the game. Players are able to create 20+ alt characters if they wanted too. The entire game is designed to cater around casual players who play 1-2 hours a day (westerners stay at their jobs for 8-12 hours a day)
It's impossible to sustain ongoing costs of a AAA MMORPG (servers, CS, new content development 50+ total staff minimum) without new players constantly coming in to play the game and spending (subs, item mall, etc).
Here is a good example of my situation since my friends want me to play BnS instead of WoW, SWTOR or TERA. Why would I want to play a game like BnS right now as a new player when I'll be soloing by myself majority of its content until I finally meet minimum requirements to grind with the rest of the mature playerbase.
Other MMORPGs don't know how to fix this or implemented a "micky-mouse" fix that put band-aid fixes to try and address this. This is why the idea of end-game content became a "thing". Game developers decided to make progression easy so that most people who play 1-5 hours a day can get to max level. The companies marketed this as "the real game starts at max level".
Another thing, if game developers can't get new players into the game to enjoy it, then they need to make sure they generate money from the existing playerbase HENCE The PAY2WIN approach or constant aggressive sales of powerful upgrades/items (end game content that is constantly designed to get you to spend). Bugs and reports of issues at lower content levels (dungeons, bosses, quests, NPCs, zones) are ignored because not enough players encounter it (no new players remember).
Feel free to propose ideas on how to fix this problem. Games were even solely designed to addressed this issue and are marginally successful at best. (Darkfall, The Secret World, Elder Scrolls MMO, etc). These games get approved for development because they explain how they're going to specifically address this. Some companies do the extreme and do non-linear progressions and even demote (items, levels, skills, etc.) their mature playerbase (since they are loyal and addicted that they will re-grind of course.)
You want developers to create a serious game? Well, propose a serious solution other than what WoW did to fix this (WoW constantly re-did their entire 1-60 experience, re-did talents, skills, continued to redo dungeons, LFD tools, etc. They had the funds and backing of a huge corporation to do this).
I've had this discussion many times and most people can't explain an acceptable solution or provide a good answer to this major issue that game developers/designers face in MMORPGs.
Does time equate to difficulty? If so, then how does a brand new player who is interested in playing the game 3-6 months after the game has launched EVER catch up to a player who has been playing consistently at launch? If majority of the player base has reached mid-game and new players wants to play with other people, how is that bridge gapped in an intuitive way?
This is the core issue that most MMORPGs face that WoW addressed in the most acceptable way that players enjoy.
Older MMORPGS tried to fix this by introducing features that most people didn't like
1. EXP boost potions 2. Changing Elite mobs into normal ones (reducing HP and constant game balancing) 3. Changing the EXP curves to make it easier in early zones 4. Companions or NPC assists 5. Bypass specific areas via soloable content 6. Special quests to give you legendaries or strong items (enough stats to kill elites and bosses without partying). 7. Instant boosts to max or near max levels 8. Specific newbie skills/buffers 9. Create auto pathing (future proofing for new players after the player base matures).
World of Warcraft is popular (continues to make tons of money) because it's easy for new players to get into the game. Players are able to create 20+ alt characters if they wanted too. The entire game is designed to cater around casual players who play 1-2 hours a day (westerners stay at their jobs for 8-12 hours a day)
It's impossible to sustain ongoing costs of a AAA MMORPG (servers, CS, new content development 50+ total staff minimum) without new players constantly coming in to play the game and spending (subs, item mall, etc).
Here is a good example of my situation since my friends want me to play BnS instead of WoW, SWTOR or TERA. Why would I want to play a game like BnS right now as a new player when I'll be soloing by myself majority of its content until I finally meet minimum requirements to grind with the rest of the mature playerbase.
Other MMORPGs don't know how to fix this or implemented a "micky-mouse" fix that put band-aid fixes to try and address this. This is why the idea of end-game content became a "thing". Game developers decided to make progression easy so that most people who play 1-5 hours a day can get to max level. The companies marketed this as "the real game starts at max level".
Another thing, if game developers can't get new players into the game to enjoy it, then they need to make sure they generate money from the existing playerbase HENCE The PAY2WIN approach or constant aggressive sales of powerful upgrades/items (end game content that is constantly designed to get you to spend). Bugs and reports of issues at lower content levels (dungeons, bosses, quests, NPCs, zones) are ignored because not enough players encounter it (no new players remember).
Feel free to propose ideas on how to fix this problem. Games were even solely designed to addressed this issue and are marginally successful at best. (Darkfall, The Secret World, Elder Scrolls MMO, etc). These games get approved for development because they explain how they're going to specifically address this. Some companies do the extreme and do non-linear progressions and even demote (items, levels, skills, etc.) their mature playerbase (since they are loyal and addicted that they will re-grind of course.)
You want developers to create a serious game? Well, propose a serious solution other than what WoW did to fix this (WoW constantly re-did their entire 1-60 experience, re-did talents, skills, continued to redo dungeons, LFD tools, etc. They had the funds and backing of a huge corporation to do this).
I would say two things to this.
One is the game is about the journey more than anything. It's about having a fun adventure with other people in a dangerous world.
Number two is that no matter how slow you progress eventually there is a roadblock. The people who play 10 hours a day will hit the roadblock much faster than those who play 1 or 2 hours a day. Such people will generally be stuck at the top raiding (even though already have gear), roll an alt, or help other people who are lower level. There is never a time when you can't catch up eventually, but even if you could would you want too? IMO usually the most fun part of the game is before the end game. I've watched a few videos for Pantheon Rise of the Fallen and it seems that is the way they are designing it. They want it to be difficult and fun no matter what level you are in the game.
The other thing is why do you feel the need to have all the best loot in the game and to have defeated all of the content? I believe this is what is making MMOs boring for me. It's fun when not everyone has everything or completes everything. That is what makes certain things feel special/memorable in game.
The reason why people want to catch up to the mature playerbase is because they want to socialize and play with other people (guilds, if it exists), be it role playing or just chat about the same interests within the game (pvp wars, dungeons, bosses, items, zones, etc.). Most people don't care about trophies and items as long as they're accepted into groups for fun adventures in high level zones and dungeons (no min/maxing focus, because you don't even know that you are doing it)
If lower level zones have elites and dungeons that can't be bypassed without a party and there isn't anyone wanting to do these hard lower level dungeons, how are new players ever going to find a group of people. They will have to ask higher levels to help them or they may have friends run them through and carry them.
You say that its about the journey, but it's really about the journey WITH PEOPLE playing WITH/AGAINST you. If it's a solo experience, it would be better to play Witcher 3 or any other single player RPG game. I'm sure their are groups of solo-focused people who enjoy MMOs but they are the exception.
Having trophies and BiS (best in slot) items are all designed so solo players have a "carrot" to chase in their minds when they're leveling and progressing through trash content. They make it fairly accessible because developers want it to be obtainable and want new and potential new players to know that it's possible to get them fairly quickly (motivates the new players to spend money and stay with the game).
I've had this discussion many times and most people can't explain an acceptable solution or provide a good answer to this major issue that game developers/designers face in MMORPGs.
Does time equate to difficulty? If so, then how does a brand new player who is interested in playing the game 3-6 months after the game has launched EVER catch up to a player who has been playing consistently at launch? If majority of the player base has reached mid-game and new players wants to play with other people, how is that bridge gapped in an intuitive way?
This is the core issue that most MMORPGs face that WoW addressed in the most acceptable way that players enjoy.
Older MMORPGS tried to fix this by introducing features that most people didn't like
1. EXP boost potions 2. Changing Elite mobs into normal ones (reducing HP and constant game balancing) 3. Changing the EXP curves to make it easier in early zones 4. Companions or NPC assists 5. Bypass specific areas via soloable content 6. Special quests to give you legendaries or strong items (enough stats to kill elites and bosses without partying). 7. Instant boosts to max or near max levels 8. Specific newbie skills/buffers 9. Create auto pathing (future proofing for new players after the player base matures).
World of Warcraft is popular (continues to make tons of money) because it's easy for new players to get into the game. Players are able to create 20+ alt characters if they wanted too. The entire game is designed to cater around casual players who play 1-2 hours a day (westerners stay at their jobs for 8-12 hours a day)
It's impossible to sustain ongoing costs of a AAA MMORPG (servers, CS, new content development 50+ total staff minimum) without new players constantly coming in to play the game and spending (subs, item mall, etc).
Here is a good example of my situation since my friends want me to play BnS instead of WoW, SWTOR or TERA. Why would I want to play a game like BnS right now as a new player when I'll be soloing by myself majority of its content until I finally meet minimum requirements to grind with the rest of the mature playerbase.
Other MMORPGs don't know how to fix this or implemented a "micky-mouse" fix that put band-aid fixes to try and address this. This is why the idea of end-game content became a "thing". Game developers decided to make progression easy so that most people who play 1-5 hours a day can get to max level. The companies marketed this as "the real game starts at max level".
Another thing, if game developers can't get new players into the game to enjoy it, then they need to make sure they generate money from the existing playerbase HENCE The PAY2WIN approach or constant aggressive sales of powerful upgrades/items (end game content that is constantly designed to get you to spend). Bugs and reports of issues at lower content levels (dungeons, bosses, quests, NPCs, zones) are ignored because not enough players encounter it (no new players remember).
Feel free to propose ideas on how to fix this problem. Games were even solely designed to addressed this issue and are marginally successful at best. (Darkfall, The Secret World, Elder Scrolls MMO, etc). These games get approved for development because they explain how they're going to specifically address this. Some companies do the extreme and do non-linear progressions and even demote (items, levels, skills, etc.) their mature playerbase (since they are loyal and addicted that they will re-grind of course.)
You want developers to create a serious game? Well, propose a serious solution other than what WoW did to fix this (WoW constantly re-did their entire 1-60 experience, re-did talents, skills, continued to redo dungeons, LFD tools, etc. They had the funds and backing of a huge corporation to do this).
I would say two things to this.
One is the game is about the journey more than anything. It's about having a fun adventure with other people in a dangerous world.
Number two is that no matter how slow you progress eventually there is a roadblock. The people who play 10 hours a day will hit the roadblock much faster than those who play 1 or 2 hours a day. Such people will generally be stuck at the top raiding (even though already have gear), roll an alt, or help other people who are lower level. There is never a time when you can't catch up eventually, but even if you could would you want too? IMO usually the most fun part of the game is before the end game. I've watched a few videos for Pantheon Rise of the Fallen and it seems that is the way they are designing it. They want it to be difficult and fun no matter what level you are in the game.
The other thing is why do you feel the need to have all the best loot in the game and to have defeated all of the content? I believe this is what is making MMOs boring for me. It's fun when not everyone has everything or completes everything. That is what makes certain things feel special/memorable in game.
Having roadblocks is even worse for new players. It increases the time exponentially to get them over it and makes it increasingly worse with less people within that level range to even get over. The person who started playing the game at launch can never be caught unless developers nerfed the content or buffed the players. Imagine if you had a mature MMORPG that was 2-3 expansions in. If old raids were requirements, you as a player would never be able to access new content without mature players helping you or developers helping you.
The reason why people want to catch up to the mature playerbase is because they want to socialize and play with other people (guilds, if it exists), be it role playing or just chat about the same interests within the game (pvp wars, dungeons, bosses, items, zones, etc.). Most people don't care about trophies and items as long as they're accepted into groups for fun adventures in high level zones and dungeons (no min/maxing focus, because you don't even know that you are doing it)
If lower level zones have elites and dungeons that can't be bypassed without a party and there isn't anyone wanting to do these hard lower level dungeons, how are new players ever going to find a group of people. They will have to ask higher levels to help them or they may have friends run them through and carry them.
You say that its about the journey, but it's really about the journey WITH PEOPLE playing WITH/AGAINST you. If it's a solo experience, it would be better to play Witcher 3 or any other single player RPG game. I'm sure their are groups of solo-focused people who enjoy MMOs but they are the exception.
Having trophies and BiS (best in slot) items are all designed so solo players have a "carrot" to chase in their minds when they're leveling and progressing through trash content. They make it fairly accessible because developers want it to be obtainable and want new and potential new players to know that it's possible to get them fairly quickly (motivates the new players to spend money and stay with the game).
According to the people who are making Pantheon there will be a mentoring system (Everquest didn't have one). High levels will be able to group with low levels. When a person mentors they will become around the same level as the person they are grouping with. I'd imagine the people who play the game a lot will tire of the endgame content and want to experience the lower level content again. Even in Everquest high level players were always coming back to hang out in the low level areas and help new players as it was fun for them. Hopefully the content at that you experience throughout the game will be enjoyable enough that there will be a continuous influx of new players, players making alts, or players willing to mentor to experience lower level content.
I'm not sure that solo content and players are what the world would be focused on, but in Pantheon as it stand right now items will not be bind on equip except for quest items. Players will be able to buy most items from other players. In EQ a high level might even give you items for free. Your incentive to keep playing a solo player would be that there are likely spawn points outside of dungeons you do solo. I believe it will also be possible to go back to dungeons like in EQ and solo them when you are 10-20 levels above with certain classes. They said there will be some soloable content for players and they won't restrict people from soloing if they can find ways to do it effectively.
The reason why people want to catch up to the mature playerbase is because they want to socialize and play with other people (guilds, if it exists), be it role playing or just chat about the same interests within the game (pvp wars, dungeons, bosses, items, zones, etc.). Most people don't care about trophies and items as long as they're accepted into groups for fun adventures in high level zones and dungeons (no min/maxing focus, because you don't even know that you are doing it)
If lower level zones have elites and dungeons that can't be bypassed without a party and there isn't anyone wanting to do these hard lower level dungeons, how are new players ever going to find a group of people. They will have to ask higher levels to help them or they may have friends run them through and carry them.
You say that its about the journey, but it's really about the journey WITH PEOPLE playing WITH/AGAINST you. If it's a solo experience, it would be better to play Witcher 3 or any other single player RPG game. I'm sure their are groups of solo-focused people who enjoy MMOs but they are the exception.
Having trophies and BiS (best in slot) items are all designed so solo players have a "carrot" to chase in their minds when they're leveling and progressing through trash content. They make it fairly accessible because developers want it to be obtainable and want new and potential new players to know that it's possible to get them fairly quickly (motivates the new players to spend money and stay with the game).
According to the people who are making Pantheon there will be a mentoring system (Everquest didn't have one). High levels will be able to group with low levels. When a person mentors they will become around the same level as the person they are grouping with. I'd imagine the people who play the game a lot will tire of the endgame content and want to experience the lower level content again. Even in Everquest high level players were always coming back to hang out in the low level areas and help new players as it was fun for them. Hopefully the content at that you experience throughout the game will be enjoyable enough that there will be a continuous influx of new players, players making alts, or players willing to mentor to experience lower level content.
Yeah, I hope it's done well. Many MMOs implemented this system (Ex. Lineage 2, Age of Conan) already. There will most likely never be another WoW level success of an MMO, but that is the bar that all new MMOs are expected to hit in terms of quality and consistency but with different/unique gameplay
The reason why people want to catch up to the mature playerbase is because they want to socialize and play with other people (guilds, if it exists), be it role playing or just chat about the same interests within the game (pvp wars, dungeons, bosses, items, zones, etc.). Most people don't care about trophies and items as long as they're accepted into groups for fun adventures in high level zones and dungeons (no min/maxing focus, because you don't even know that you are doing it)
If lower level zones have elites and dungeons that can't be bypassed without a party and there isn't anyone wanting to do these hard lower level dungeons, how are new players ever going to find a group of people. They will have to ask higher levels to help them or they may have friends run them through and carry them.
You say that its about the journey, but it's really about the journey WITH PEOPLE playing WITH/AGAINST you. If it's a solo experience, it would be better to play Witcher 3 or any other single player RPG game. I'm sure their are groups of solo-focused people who enjoy MMOs but they are the exception.
Having trophies and BiS (best in slot) items are all designed so solo players have a "carrot" to chase in their minds when they're leveling and progressing through trash content. They make it fairly accessible because developers want it to be obtainable and want new and potential new players to know that it's possible to get them fairly quickly (motivates the new players to spend money and stay with the game).
According to the people who are making Pantheon there will be a mentoring system (Everquest didn't have one). High levels will be able to group with low levels. When a person mentors they will become around the same level as the person they are grouping with. I'd imagine the people who play the game a lot will tire of the endgame content and want to experience the lower level content again. Even in Everquest high level players were always coming back to hang out in the low level areas and help new players as it was fun for them. Hopefully the content at that you experience throughout the game will be enjoyable enough that there will be a continuous influx of new players, players making alts, or players willing to mentor to experience lower level content.
Yeah, I hope it's done well. Many MMOs implemented this system (Ex. Lineage 2, Age of Conan) already. There will most likely never be another WoW level success of an MMO, but that is the bar that all new MMOs are expected to hit in terms of quality and consistency but with different/unique gameplay
This game is a bit different though. It's trying to emulate an older style of MMO and appeal to a niche group of people. It's not attempting to attract as many people as World of Warcraft has over the years. It is just trying to replicate the Everquest experience. A lot of people may be turned off by that. From what I've seen so far the combat is just as slow as it used to be.
I've had this discussion many times and most people can't explain an acceptable solution or provide a good answer to this major issue that game developers/designers face in MMORPGs.
The solution is simply to have different types of games that appeal to different people. When games try to appeal to EVERYONE they fail. It will be interesting to see how games like Pantheon or Saga of Lucimia fare IF they deliver on their promises. Most of these niche games fail not because of lack of interest but rather because of a failure to deliver a fully functional product that is reasonably feature complete.
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I liked the original vanilla WoW raids where most guilds couldn't down the gatekeeper boss and you had to try to find a really competent group.
And I stopped reading there.
WoW was a step down from the brutal game play you supposedly miss. WoW highlighted everything for you with golden exclamation marks and question marks. It pretty much put a huge friggin neon sign over anything and everything you ever needed to do as a player. There was no skill, whatsoever, in doing anything in that game.
You were on a roll when you started the post though and I thought you were going to refer back to some of the game that had that hardcore edge to them, like Star Wars galaxies, Ultima Online, or Asheron's Call, but you fell short when you started to consider WoW "difficult".
I liked the original vanilla WoW raids where most guilds couldn't down the gatekeeper boss and you had to try to find a really competent group.
And I stopped reading there.
WoW was a step down from the brutal game play you supposedly miss. WoW highlighted everything for you with golden exclamation marks and question marks. It pretty much put a huge friggin neon sign over anything and everything you ever needed to do as a player. There was no skill, whatsoever, in doing anything in that game.
You definitely never raided even just Molten Core or Onyxia during Vanilla, and you have no idea about what you're talking about here.
To be fair, even killing regular mobs in the dungeons took ages due to their exaggerated health bars.
It was one of the reasons I stopped playing wow as I kept falling asleep mid dungeon runs.
I'm surprised that with as much experience as you all have with MMO's that you cannot separate difficulty from tedium. Let's say you created a game like EQ1 today.... no quest markers... week long spawns.... non instanced dungeons; it would flop... HARD. Why? Because people are soft, stupid or entitled? No.... we just don't have 12 hours a day to sit at a dungeon spawn for a chance at loot or get calls in the middle of the night because a dragon spawned.
Why would we even want to compete with those that can?
Why would a developer create content for 10% or less of the player base?
The idea that EQ1 or Lineage2 were examples of what an MMORPG *should* be is nuts. They were not hard; they were tedious. The people that excelled at them were people with literally no life.
"Let's make MMORPGs shitty again" (instead of easy)
How about we move forward with game design?
You're forgetting the part where those content targets that were on infrequent spawns were also pretty difficult - no, not several expansions later, when they *did* become just tedious, but when they were current end-game or epic content. You had to be on your game to drop the target when it *did* spawn, because you knew you wouldn't get another chance very soon.
Hell, they were difficult even a few expansions later for me or anyone else who was perpetually under-geared. Long spawn timers also made the loot more desirable, as you didn't see every Joe Schmoe running around with the same gear, when you got it.
It's a GAME. The same as chess, checkers, monopoly. IMHO If you personally identify with your game piece YOU need to re-evaluate your involvement.
It's a game, but UNLIKE chess, checkers and monopoly, it's Role-Playing Game. And this where our opinion vastly differs, in that mine is that if you choose to take on a role of character living in a persistent world and then you DON'T personally identify with that character in some way, there is probably something wrong with YOU.
I don't believe either one of us are psychiatrists or are qualified to answer this question though. A quick google search led me to this article, which cites some actual research in Empathy as it pertains fictional characters (in this example, film ones, but if anything, roles played by ourselves are even MORE closer than those played by other people). https://www.wheretowatch.com/2013/07/the-psychology-of-character-bonding-why-we-feel-a-real-connection-to-actors
So yeah, empathy towards a fictional character is completely normal. I would expect even moreso toward one you're playing. The fact that you don't get that or (I assume) feel any probably explains your inability to understand it in others.
You're welcome to produce any research your google-fu can conjure up that asserts that having a connection and "actual feelings" relating to a fictional character and its fate is somehow irregular. I'd be fascinated to read it.
You don't have to get emo over your character's death either. Besides, I have often got the feeling that many mmorpg players think they are playing themselves as their character. Looking that the twitchy skills types of players.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
It's a GAME. The same as chess, checkers, monopoly. IMHO If you personally identify with your game piece YOU need to re-evaluate your involvement.
It's a game, but UNLIKE chess, checkers and monopoly, it's Role-Playing Game. And this where our opinion vastly differs, in that mine is that if you choose to take on a role of character living in a persistent world and then you DON'T personally identify with that character in some way, there is probably something wrong with YOU.
So what your absurd argument means, is that an actor, playing a ROLE... say... Darth Vader... should feel bad for the actor, playing a role... say... Captain Needa for Force Choking him to death?
I don't think he's saying that. As an Actor I can tell you that one must understand and "step into" the shoes of the character you are playing. You must not only understand their motivations and feelings but understand how they got there before the play/movie (whatever your project) and what happens after the project.
Whether you agree with method actors (I am not one) and how they ply their craft, they are usually exhausted by the end of the project because of what they bring to the character.
My thought is that he tries to bring backstory, imbue his character with purpose, with motivations, and therefore identifies with the character.
Now, having said that I don't think that level of involvement is necessary to play a role playing game and one can approach them simply as an interactive book if one wants.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I remember when I first started in EQ I was just hoping to find anything with any stats at all...We were even happy if the item had just a little AC on it.....Now if players dont get stuff for logging in, daily quests with insane XP or rewards, and multiple raid rewards they are ticked off......Many of our raids in EQ ended up with 15-20 people rolling on one item
I remember when I first started in EQ I was just hoping to find anything with any stats at all...We were even happy if the item had just a little AC on it.....Now if players dont get stuff for logging in, daily quests with insane XP or rewards, and multiple raid rewards they are ticked off......Many of our raids in EQ ended up with 15-20 people rolling on one item
The adhd kids grew up.
And other options for MMOs that weren't completely based on whittling away our all-too-short human lives came along.
(of course, nowadays they're more focused on whittling away our wallets. But as a person who now has a job, I actually prefer that to the bullcrap I had to deal with in old MMOs with spawn timers so long that I had to set a calendar around them)
I'm surprised that with as much experience as you all have with MMO's that you cannot separate difficulty from tedium. Let's say you created a game like EQ1 today.... no quest markers... week long spawns.... non instanced dungeons; it would flop... HARD. Why? Because people are soft, stupid or entitled? No.... we just don't have 12 hours a day to sit at a dungeon spawn for a chance at loot or get calls in the middle of the night because a dragon spawned.
Why would we even want to compete with those that can?
Why would a developer create content for 10% or less of the player base?
The idea that EQ1 or Lineage2 were examples of what an MMORPG *should* be is nuts. They were not hard; they were tedious. The people that excelled at them were people with literally no life.
"Let's make MMORPGs shitty again" (instead of easy)
How about we move forward with game design?
Don't know what has happened in your world where everyone universally has less time, but that change hasn't taken place over here in mine. Being 20 years older, I may personally have less time, but claiming those younger than me have suddenly been inundated with new life variables is a fallacy.
Tedium is just an excuse for people who want instant gratification. For the rest of us, we still enjoy the feeling of earning something that took a devotion of time.
I don't think the problem with MMORPG is the game being easy and give free trophy . The problem with MMORPG genre is it trying to become half-ass singleplayer .
in those modern MMORPG , nether you have massively multiplayer of MMO nor ability to owning and custom your game of singleplayer .
So basically we have some sh*t that so hard to stomach , but so expensive with the price of gold .
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I'm surprised that with as much experience as you all have with MMO's that you cannot separate difficulty from tedium. Let's say you created a game like EQ1 today.... no quest markers... week long spawns.... non instanced dungeons; it would flop... HARD. Why? Because people are soft, stupid or entitled? No.... we just don't have 12 hours a day to sit at a dungeon spawn for a chance at loot or get calls in the middle of the night because a dragon spawned.
Why would we even want to compete with those that can?
Why would a developer create content for 10% or less of the player base?
The idea that EQ1 or Lineage2 were examples of what an MMORPG *should* be is nuts. They were not hard; they were tedious. The people that excelled at them were people with literally no life.
"Let's make MMORPGs shitty again" (instead of easy)
How about we move forward with game design?
Yep, because back then, people didn't have lives, kids, families, jobs, etc, yep.
It wouldn't flop, and you know why? Because a large population of players are dying for something that rewards those who invest a large volume of time into something rather than the now, the current instant gratification generation of players who cry murder should anything take any amount of time to complete. You don't have that sense of accomplishment anymore. Now everything for the most part is given out on a silver platter so that everyone can have it, like sports... even the losers get rewards, trophies, etc. That's not teaching people good things, in the slightest. Its not teaching you how to battle adversity because life ain't like it. It kicks you to the ground, beats the shit out of you. It's relevant to this. People get rewarded for absolutely nothing and it's evolved into what we have now for our current iteration of MMO's. Get rewarded for logging in!
Community, building friendships, relationships are all things that came from investing time as well. Something absolutely missing in MMO's and something I continue to iterate needs to come back. The quality of MMO's has gone down for a reason...why don't you take a step back and look at why....
So I ask you this, how can we move forward with game design if developers know that players are going to bitch, moan, and complain should anything require any amount of time? You're playing the wrong genre if investing any time is an issue
Yep, because back then, people didn't have lives, kids, families, jobs, etc, yep.
Nope... because back then, people didn't know better, and didn't have a choice since all available MMORPGs were based on terrible leveling grinds and tedious time wasting mechanics.
As a pre-UO veteran, there are things I definitely don't want to see back in any of the games I play. Camping spawns for hours or even days. Spending an hour crafting elemental arrows (Asheron's Call 1) pressing the same keys over and over again before being able to actually play. Spending weeks farming dungeons to get specific elemental protections before being able to start interesting raids. Corpse runs in the middle of the night because you accidentally died just before logging out, and arriving at work tired as hell. Repetitive PK ganking requiring to either log on your "main" if you had one or just stop playing. Etc, etc... so many "great" mechanics, really.
The only reason most did it back then is because it was the only way to have access to a MMORPG.
And here we are in a predicament of why mmo's are struggling, why the current mmo generation game hops so often, why there's no retention, why people can't tell you the names of players they played with just a few minutes prior, why people feel so disconnected from the mmo they're playing...I could go on and on.
We don't have to have spawn camping(even though a lot of us would enjoy it because it would allow us and force us to actually communicate with our fellow group mates, again going back to what I said about community) but what we currently have isn't any better. Corpse runs I actually wish would come back to some extent. Dying now, has no penalty. You're not afraid of the game world you're in, no sense of danger.
So in other words you're falling into the category of just wanting thing's to come easily by going off what you said and I will resort back to what I said in my last post... you're playing the wrong genre if investing any time is an issue which it sounds like it is for you(which is fine since a lot of us have jobs)
Comments
The thing is that when players can get the last 10 levels in 12 hours the leveling speed is so fast that most of the players will tire soon.
It might be that it is time to get rid of levels but if they are to stay they must pace out the content far better and get the time it takes to level just right.
If a casual player wont gain a level in a week he/she will probably get bored and leave but if you let that casual player gain several levels in the few hours he/she plays you instead will loose anyone playing slightly more soon.
So I think 1 lvl a week for a casual is the right way to go if you are trying to have both casuals and people who play longer in the same game. Current leveling speed is too fast but you should be able to cut it down to half or a third and still keep the casuals without losing the ones that play more. Early Wow proved that it works with lots of players, they have increased their leveling speed a lot since.
That wont help with no-lifers but it is close to impossible to get both no-lifers and super casuals in the same game, I think Vanilla Wow (and possibly TBC Wow) is the only MMO pulling it off ever.
How could you even make yourself type such a ridiculous statement? The raiding endgame and the single group play we did while leveling up where the same? Really? In all the years that I've been bitching about the shitty endgame in EQ you're the first person who has tried to tell me that it was actually just the same as the earlier part of the game.
No, the early and mid-level gameplay in EQ was enjoyable and was what hooked all the people who got hooked on EQ. The end-game raiding was miserable and crappy and although a large number of people put up with it because there was nothing else; I am certain that only a small percentage of people actually liked it.
Does time equate to difficulty? If so, then how does a brand new player who is interested in playing the game 3-6 months after the game has launched EVER catch up to a player who has been playing consistently at launch? If majority of the player base has reached mid-game and new players wants to play with other people, how is that bridge gapped in an intuitive way?
This is the core issue that most MMORPGs face that WoW addressed in the most acceptable way that players enjoy.
Older MMORPGS tried to fix this by introducing features that most people didn't like
1. EXP boost potions
2. Changing Elite mobs into normal ones (reducing HP and constant game balancing)
3. Changing the EXP curves to make it easier in early zones
4. Companions or NPC assists
5. Bypass specific areas via soloable content
6. Special quests to give you legendaries or strong items (enough stats to kill elites and bosses without partying).
7. Instant boosts to max or near max levels
8. Specific newbie skills/buffers
9. Create auto pathing (future proofing for new players after the player base matures).
World of Warcraft is popular (continues to make tons of money) because it's easy for new players to get into the game. Players are able to create 20+ alt characters if they wanted too. The entire game is designed to cater around casual players who play 1-2 hours a day (westerners stay at their jobs for 8-12 hours a day)
It's impossible to sustain ongoing costs of a AAA MMORPG (servers, CS, new content development 50+ total staff minimum) without new players constantly coming in to play the game and spending (subs, item mall, etc).
Here is a good example of my situation since my friends want me to play BnS instead of WoW, SWTOR or TERA. Why would I want to play a game like BnS right now as a new player when I'll be soloing by myself majority of its content until I finally meet minimum requirements to grind with the rest of the mature playerbase.
Other MMORPGs don't know how to fix this or implemented a "micky-mouse" fix that put band-aid fixes to try and address this. This is why the idea of end-game content became a "thing". Game developers decided to make progression easy so that most people who play 1-5 hours a day can get to max level. The companies marketed this as "the real game starts at max level".
Another thing, if game developers can't get new players into the game to enjoy it, then they need to make sure they generate money from the existing playerbase HENCE The PAY2WIN approach or constant aggressive sales of powerful upgrades/items (end game content that is constantly designed to get you to spend). Bugs and reports of issues at lower content levels (dungeons, bosses, quests, NPCs, zones) are ignored because not enough players encounter it (no new players remember).
Feel free to propose ideas on how to fix this problem. Games were even solely designed to addressed this issue and are marginally successful at best. (Darkfall, The Secret World, Elder Scrolls MMO, etc). These games get approved for development because they explain how they're going to specifically address this. Some companies do the extreme and do non-linear progressions and even demote (items, levels, skills, etc.) their mature playerbase (since they are loyal and addicted that they will re-grind of course.)
You want developers to create a serious game? Well, propose a serious solution other than what WoW did to fix this (WoW constantly re-did their entire 1-60 experience, re-did talents, skills, continued to redo dungeons, LFD tools, etc. They had the funds and backing of a huge corporation to do this).
One is the game is about the journey more than anything. It's about having a fun adventure with other people in a dangerous world.
Number two is that no matter how slow you progress eventually there is a roadblock. The people who play 10 hours a day will hit the roadblock much faster than those who play 1 or 2 hours a day. Such people will generally be stuck at the top raiding (even though already have gear), roll an alt, or help other people who are lower level. There is never a time when you can't catch up eventually, but even if you could would you want too? IMO usually the most fun part of the game is before the end game. I've watched a few videos for Pantheon Rise of the Fallen and it seems that is the way they are designing it. They want it to be difficult and fun no matter what level you are in the game.
The other thing is why do you feel the need to have all the best loot in the game and to have defeated all of the content? I believe this is what is making MMOs boring for me. It's fun when not everyone has everything or completes everything. That is what makes certain things feel special/memorable in game.
If lower level zones have elites and dungeons that can't be bypassed without a party and there isn't anyone wanting to do these hard lower level dungeons, how are new players ever going to find a group of people. They will have to ask higher levels to help them or they may have friends run them through and carry them.
You say that its about the journey, but it's really about the journey WITH PEOPLE playing WITH/AGAINST you. If it's a solo experience, it would be better to play Witcher 3 or any other single player RPG game. I'm sure their are groups of solo-focused people who enjoy MMOs but they are the exception.
Having trophies and BiS (best in slot) items are all designed so solo players have a "carrot" to chase in their minds when they're leveling and progressing through trash content. They make it fairly accessible because developers want it to be obtainable and want new and potential new players to know that it's possible to get them fairly quickly (motivates the new players to spend money and stay with the game).
I'm not sure that solo content and players are what the world would be focused on, but in Pantheon as it stand right now items will not be bind on equip except for quest items. Players will be able to buy most items from other players. In EQ a high level might even give you items for free. Your incentive to keep playing a solo player would be that there are likely spawn points outside of dungeons you do solo. I believe it will also be possible to go back to dungeons like in EQ and solo them when you are 10-20 levels above with certain classes. They said there will be some soloable content for players and they won't restrict people from soloing if they can find ways to do it effectively.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And I stopped reading there.
WoW was a step down from the brutal game play you supposedly miss. WoW highlighted everything for you with golden exclamation marks and question marks. It pretty much put a huge friggin neon sign over anything and everything you ever needed to do as a player. There was no skill, whatsoever, in doing anything in that game.
You were on a roll when you started the post though and I thought you were going to refer back to some of the game that had that hardcore edge to them, like Star Wars galaxies, Ultima Online, or Asheron's Call, but you fell short when you started to consider WoW "difficult".
It was one of the reasons I stopped playing wow as I kept falling asleep mid dungeon runs.
Hell, they were difficult even a few expansions later for me or anyone else who was perpetually under-geared. Long spawn timers also made the loot more desirable, as you didn't see every Joe Schmoe running around with the same gear, when you got it.
You don't have to get emo over your character's death either. Besides, I have often got the feeling that many mmorpg players think they are playing themselves as their character. Looking that the twitchy skills types of players.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Whether you agree with method actors (I am not one) and how they ply their craft, they are usually exhausted by the end of the project because of what they bring to the character.
My thought is that he tries to bring backstory, imbue his character with purpose, with motivations, and therefore identifies with the character.
Now, having said that I don't think that level of involvement is necessary to play a role playing game and one can approach them simply as an interactive book if one wants.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
(of course, nowadays they're more focused on whittling away our wallets. But as a person who now has a job, I actually prefer that to the bullcrap I had to deal with in old MMOs with spawn timers so long that I had to set a calendar around them)
Tedium is just an excuse for people who want instant gratification. For the rest of us, we still enjoy the feeling of earning something that took a devotion of time.
in those modern MMORPG , nether you have massively multiplayer of MMO nor ability to owning and custom your game of singleplayer .
So basically we have some sh*t that so hard to stomach , but so expensive with the price of gold .
when we can buy it from the cash shop on clearance?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
It wouldn't flop, and you know why? Because a large population of players are dying for something that rewards those who invest a large volume of time into something rather than the now, the current instant gratification generation of players who cry murder should anything take any amount of time to complete. You don't have that sense of accomplishment anymore. Now everything for the most part is given out on a silver platter so that everyone can have it, like sports... even the losers get rewards, trophies, etc. That's not teaching people good things, in the slightest. Its not teaching you how to battle adversity because life ain't like it. It kicks you to the ground, beats the shit out of you. It's relevant to this. People get rewarded for absolutely nothing and it's evolved into what we have now for our current iteration of MMO's. Get rewarded for logging in!
Community, building friendships, relationships are all things that came from investing time as well. Something absolutely missing in MMO's and something I continue to iterate needs to come back. The quality of MMO's has gone down for a reason...why don't you take a step back and look at why....
So I ask you this, how can we move forward with game design if developers know that players are going to bitch, moan, and complain should anything require any amount of time? You're playing the wrong genre if investing any time is an issue
We don't have to have spawn camping(even though a lot of us would enjoy it because it would allow us and force us to actually communicate with our fellow group mates, again going back to what I said about community) but what we currently have isn't any better. Corpse runs I actually wish would come back to some extent. Dying now, has no penalty. You're not afraid of the game world you're in, no sense of danger.
So in other words you're falling into the category of just wanting thing's to come easily by going off what you said and I will resort back to what I said in my last post... you're playing the wrong genre if investing any time is an issue which it sounds like it is for you(which is fine since a lot of us have jobs)
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO