I'm not 100% sure if this information is still accurate (it was from 3 years ago after all), but during the Kickstarter they went into some detail on how they plan for 8 of the classes to play.
After reading the links above, you will see that the Pantheon classes do deviate from EverQuest 1.
Stop posting this nonsensical factual information. It doesn't fit with the narrative that Pantheon = EQ Clone with better graphics for jaded old guys who have rose colored glasses on and can't think critically.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
After reading the links above, you will see that the Pantheon classes do deviate from EverQuest 1.
You do realize your links are super, super, super old now, right ?
And sure there is some deviation. But its still closer to EQ than for example Vanguard was. I definitely hope they'll include some of the features of Vanguard later - esp those that worked well, such as the Blood Mage.
After reading the links above, you will see that the Pantheon classes do deviate from EverQuest 1.
You do realize your links are super, super, super old now, right ?
And sure there is some deviation. But its still closer to EQ than for example Vanguard was. I definitely hope they'll include some of the features of Vanguard later - esp those that worked well, such as the Blood Mage.
Haha I do/did realize that. That's why I started my post by saying...
I'm not 100% sure if this information is still accurate (it was from 3 years ago after all), but during the Kickstarter they went into some detail on how they plan for 8 of the classes to play.
Until more specific class information is released, the KS details are all we have to go by.
The problem I had with Blood Mage is I felt like it took a big part of what was interesting about Necromancer and put it in a different -- more specialized -- class. The thing I didn't like about Vanguard classes is I felt like they were trying to add too many types of healers to make their 4:4:4:4 idea work (tanks, healers, casters, offensive melee). I don't know if a game needs a Disciple and Shaman for example.
I'm a big fan on lore-centered classes rather than ones that seem to be imagined from a game-balance perspective. While the Vanguard classes seemed to have good lore about them -- you can tell that some of them were done to fit this 4:4:4:4 framework. That framework even changed how they decided to do some classes.
The problem I had with Blood Mage is I felt like it took a big part of what was interesting about Necromancer and put it in a different -- more specialized -- class. The thing I didn't like about Vanguard classes is I felt like they were trying to add too many types of healers to make their 4:4:4:4 idea work (tanks, healers, casters, offensive melee). I don't know if a game needs a Disciple and Shaman for example.
I'm a big fan on lore-centered classes rather than ones that seem to be imagined from a game-balance perspective. While the Vanguard classes seemed to have good lore about them -- you can tell that some of them were done to fit this 4:4:4:4 framework. That framework even changed how they decided to do some classes.
I don't know why a game couldn't have a disciple and a shaman. They were about as different as any two healer classes ever created. Necro and BM had more in common than sham and disc.
I think every game has room for a healer that heals using melee abilities and chain attacks. If Pantheon had such a class, it would 100% be my main on day 1. It wouldn't even have to be OP!
The Disciple class design was nonsensical. It was a top tier healer that was also the best soloer in the game. Shaman was similar in EQ but at least their dps was awful, unlike Disciples.
So basically we had a pivotal group role running around soloing 90% of the time. Their decent damage marginalized the monk class since Disciples were way more useful in groups and by far better at soloing. Disciple reminded me of one of those awful EQ2 class splits where one class was always noticeably better than the other. People don't want Disciple because of their "revolutionary" mechanics, they want them because they were OP as ****.
I think melee healer is a good idea. But it could be done on a Shaman, Cleric, or even Paladin. It looks like Pantheon my well go the route of making the Cleric replace the game play of Disciple (the battle cleric that is).
The problem I had with Blood Mage is I felt like it took a big
part of what was interesting about Necromancer and put it in a different
-- more specialized -- class. [...] I don't know if a game needs a Disciple and Shaman for example.
What. The. Frak ?!?!!?!?
Oh. My. God ...
Have you even played any of these classes ?
There have been three types of Shamans - one tank (Bear), one melee (Wolf), one magic (Phoenix). So, with your line of logic, we could have replaced all other three healer classes with Shaman, lolz.
Reality of course was drastically different, because Shamans, all three variants, operated completely differently from any of the other healer classes.
Cleric was the straight all out healer with the big easy spells and massive defense. They also got the best setup of buffs. They didnt get any specialized buffs, though, such as runspeed. They had five specializations but those didnt played so differently, really.
Shamans have been the other healer type. Again it still was straight classical healing, but unlike Cleric they couldnt just put up the big heal over time spells, they had to carefully apply their reactive heals instead. Their main advantage was their strong debuffs. And they got good spells and did better damage than Cleric, even the Bear type.
Disciples have been the single target healers. Extremely different from any other healer class, especially since they didnt need mana at all, most of the time. Good evasion, too. Their buffs have been, well, forgettable. Their damage output was second only to Blood Mage.
Blood Mage of course was the lifetap to heal magician. Awesome class, completely different from anything else. Good general buffs, but also nice trickery buffs. I also played Necromancer (got both classes to about level 40) and the difference was really massive. Thus no, in no way was Blood Mage "just a necromancer healer".
It was the same with mages and tricksters. Which by your logic could also be melted into one class, lolz.
The area in which I felt Vanguard lacked customization was tanks. Tanks really played too much alike. I mean okay, solo they played extremely differently: Warriror was the glas cannon, best dps of all tanks but they could only stand next to the mob and take the hits, Paladin could kill anything but their dps was really not that high, while Dread Knight was the king of the hill when soloing in good gear.
But in group ? You kept aggro. Certainly a bit differently, yes. But it really was more kind of a subclass system.
I always felt the blood mage in Vanguard reminded me of the Empathy Defender who could pain heal in City of Heroes. I always loved the different builds you could mix and match in City of X.
The Disciple class design was nonsensical. It was a top tier healer that was also the best soloer in the game. Shaman was similar in EQ but at least their dps was awful, unlike Disciples.
So basically we had a pivotal group role running around soloing 90% of the time. Their decent damage marginalized the monk class since Disciples were way more useful in groups and by far better at soloing. Disciple reminded me of one of those awful EQ2 class splits where one class was always noticeably better than the other. People don't want Disciple because of their "revolutionary" mechanics, they want them because they were OP as ****.
Nonsense. I enjoyed the combat mechanics of the class because they were incredible (melee attacks and chain attacks which provided heals and hots). How powerful they are is irrelevant to how fun the class was. The simple solution is to tweak the amount of damage, while leaving their healing potency intact to play that role.
Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen will likely be a fundamentally different game compared to what you may have experienced playing other modern MMORPGs. From the moment you log in you will notice that the game is more social and has an emphasis on cooperative play. The monsters are often tougher and exploration is more involved. You will need friends in the game and your reputation can either help you progress or hinder it. Death in-game is meaningful and you’ll want to avoid it when possible. You’ll learn your surroundings and the lay of the land, spending meaningful time in each area and not just running through as quickly as possible to collect ten hides. You will need strategy, cunning and endurance to uncover all that Pantheon has to offer. You will find yourself in group and guild chats as you strategize or even just to pass the time between battles. Pantheon is social, thought-provoking, and the memories from your experiences in Terminus will last a lifetime.
Atmosphere/Climate System
One of Pantheon’s tenets is ‘Engage the World!’ When we talk about being a PvE MMO, our definition of ‘environment’ means a lot more than just fighting NPCs -- players will be contending with the world itself. Some regions will be very hot or cold. Some areas within a zone might be enchanted with complete darkness, or silence (meaning spoken spells won't work), or poison or miasma. Small tornados could travel through a region, compelling players to work their way around them, not through them, lest they take significant damage. Also, certain spells may work better or worse (or even only work) depending on the climate or atmosphere -- for example, a 'Call Lightning' spell could deal more damage than a typical ‘lightning bolt’ spell but could only be cast if there is a storm in the region.
In MMOs it is common to find rare items out in the world, by adventuring or by crafting, but abilities and spells are more often learned from trainers or even just given to player when his or her character levels up. In Pantheon, however, many of the more rare and exotic spells and abilities are found not at the local trainer but from a wise sage hiding in the depths of a dungeon or at the top of a remote tower. Learn more
Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups
The world is not static and unchanging – every day is not ‘groundhog’ day. Events occur that can completely change the population of a zone or the population of a group of NPCs within a zone (and the rarer the event, the rarer the rewards -- many exotic items can only be obtained when one of these zone events occur). An example: after you kill some key mobs guarding a hill giant camp, this triggers a zone event that loads up an invading force of Storm Giants who then proceed to attack the Hill Giant camp.
NPC Dispositions and Behaviors
An area we have not seen much innovation in MMORPGs, almost since their inception, is the area of NPC AI. What if certain enemies had different “dispositions” that had to be discovered by the player? Many NPCs in Pantheon will have advanced behaviors, like the propensity to flee if possible, or to stand and fight to the end. Some NPCs will be inclined to help other NPCs in the area, while some will not. Some will target certain classes within the group that is attacking them. NPC’s movement speeds may vary if they feel they are outmatched. While it is too early to go into a lot of detail, some of the different dispositions we are working on include: the Alarmist, the Bully, the Craven, the Opportunist, the Protector, and the Strategist.
Colored Mana System
Different classes will use different colors of mana. Some rare abilities, spells, and prayers will use more than one color of mana. These exotic abilities create an opportunity to sub-class your character, allowing players to customize their class to a degree, but without removing the interdependence between classes that is key to group content and building community.
Progeny System
Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things).
Situational Gear
In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).
The Perception System
One of the most profound things about Pantheon is how we are designing the game from the ground up so that the Environment truly matters – we want players to care about the world they are in, and why things are the way they are. When you think of MMOs, when is the last time you discovered the meaning, or the history, or the secrets of a person, place or event without being told by a text box? What if we’ve conceived of a way to bring players back to exploring because they are compelled by what they see in front of them - not because a blinking light tells them to go there? In Pantheon, Wizards will be able to perceive things that a Warrior cannot. Through prayer, a Cleric may gain insight into an area, or a creature, that a Rogue could never know. Through our perception system, Pantheon will redefine how the game world becomes known, and how players will work together to progress
Comments
Stop posting this nonsensical factual information. It doesn't fit with the narrative that Pantheon = EQ Clone with better graphics for jaded old guys who have rose colored glasses on and can't think critically.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
You do realize your links are super, super, super old now, right ?
And sure there is some deviation. But its still closer to EQ than for example Vanguard was. I definitely hope they'll include some of the features of Vanguard later - esp those that worked well, such as the Blood Mage.
Until more specific class information is released, the KS details are all we have to go by.
I'm a big fan on lore-centered classes rather than ones that seem to be imagined from a game-balance perspective. While the Vanguard classes seemed to have good lore about them -- you can tell that some of them were done to fit this 4:4:4:4 framework. That framework even changed how they decided to do some classes.
I think every game has room for a healer that heals using melee abilities and chain attacks. If Pantheon had such a class, it would 100% be my main on day 1. It wouldn't even have to be OP!
So basically we had a pivotal group role running around soloing 90% of the time. Their decent damage marginalized the monk class since Disciples were way more useful in groups and by far better at soloing. Disciple reminded me of one of those awful EQ2 class splits where one class was always noticeably better than the other. People don't want Disciple because of their "revolutionary" mechanics, they want them because they were OP as ****.
What. The. Frak ?!?!!?!?
Oh. My. God ...
Have you even played any of these classes ?
There have been three types of Shamans - one tank (Bear), one melee (Wolf), one magic (Phoenix). So, with your line of logic, we could have replaced all other three healer classes with Shaman, lolz.
Reality of course was drastically different, because Shamans, all three variants, operated completely differently from any of the other healer classes.
Cleric was the straight all out healer with the big easy spells and massive defense. They also got the best setup of buffs. They didnt get any specialized buffs, though, such as runspeed. They had five specializations but those didnt played so differently, really.
Shamans have been the other healer type. Again it still was straight classical healing, but unlike Cleric they couldnt just put up the big heal over time spells, they had to carefully apply their reactive heals instead. Their main advantage was their strong debuffs. And they got good spells and did better damage than Cleric, even the Bear type.
Disciples have been the single target healers. Extremely different from any other healer class, especially since they didnt need mana at all, most of the time. Good evasion, too. Their buffs have been, well, forgettable. Their damage output was second only to Blood Mage.
Blood Mage of course was the lifetap to heal magician. Awesome class, completely different from anything else. Good general buffs, but also nice trickery buffs. I also played Necromancer (got both classes to about level 40) and the difference was really massive. Thus no, in no way was Blood Mage "just a necromancer healer".
It was the same with mages and tricksters. Which by your logic could also be melted into one class, lolz.
The area in which I felt Vanguard lacked customization was tanks. Tanks really played too much alike. I mean okay, solo they played extremely differently: Warriror was the glas cannon, best dps of all tanks but they could only stand next to the mob and take the hits, Paladin could kill anything but their dps was really not that high, while Dread Knight was the king of the hill when soloing in good gear.
But in group ? You kept aggro. Certainly a bit differently, yes. But it really was more kind of a subclass system.
But truly, if they just re-skinned EQ with modern graphics I would be ok with that too lol.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
An MMO Evolved
Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen will likely be a fundamentally different game compared to what you may have experienced playing other modern MMORPGs. From the moment you log in you will notice that the game is more social and has an emphasis on cooperative play. The monsters are often tougher and exploration is more involved. You will need friends in the game and your reputation can either help you progress or hinder it. Death in-game is meaningful and you’ll want to avoid it when possible. You’ll learn your surroundings and the lay of the land, spending meaningful time in each area and not just running through as quickly as possible to collect ten hides. You will need strategy, cunning and endurance to uncover all that Pantheon has to offer. You will find yourself in group and guild chats as you strategize or even just to pass the time between battles. Pantheon is social, thought-provoking, and the memories from your experiences in Terminus will last a lifetime.Atmosphere/Climate System
One of Pantheon’s tenets is ‘Engage the World!’ When we talk about being a PvE MMO, our definition of ‘environment’ means a lot more than just fighting NPCs -- players will be contending with the world itself. Some regions will be very hot or cold. Some areas within a zone might be enchanted with complete darkness, or silence (meaning spoken spells won't work), or poison or miasma. Small tornados could travel through a region, compelling players to work their way around them, not through them, lest they take significant damage. Also, certain spells may work better or worse (or even only work) depending on the climate or atmosphere -- for example, a 'Call Lightning' spell could deal more damage than a typical ‘lightning bolt’ spell but could only be cast if there is a storm in the region.Powerful Spells and Abilities: The Living Codex
In MMOs it is common to find rare items out in the world, by adventuring or by crafting, but abilities and spells are more often learned from trainers or even just given to player when his or her character levels up. In Pantheon, however, many of the more rare and exotic spells and abilities are found not at the local trainer but from a wise sage hiding in the depths of a dungeon or at the top of a remote tower.Learn more
Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups
The world is not static and unchanging – every day is not ‘groundhog’ day. Events occur that can completely change the population of a zone or the population of a group of NPCs within a zone (and the rarer the event, the rarer the rewards -- many exotic items can only be obtained when one of these zone events occur). An example: after you kill some key mobs guarding a hill giant camp, this triggers a zone event that loads up an invading force of Storm Giants who then proceed to attack the Hill Giant camp.NPC Dispositions and Behaviors
An area we have not seen much innovation in MMORPGs, almost since their inception, is the area of NPC AI. What if certain enemies had different “dispositions” that had to be discovered by the player? Many NPCs in Pantheon will have advanced behaviors, like the propensity to flee if possible, or to stand and fight to the end. Some NPCs will be inclined to help other NPCs in the area, while some will not. Some will target certain classes within the group that is attacking them. NPC’s movement speeds may vary if they feel they are outmatched. While it is too early to go into a lot of detail, some of the different dispositions we are working on include: the Alarmist, the Bully, the Craven, the Opportunist, the Protector, and the Strategist.Colored Mana System
Different classes will use different colors of mana. Some rare abilities, spells, and prayers will use more than one color of mana. These exotic abilities create an opportunity to sub-class your character, allowing players to customize their class to a degree, but without removing the interdependence between classes that is key to group content and building community.Progeny System
Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things).Situational Gear
In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).The Perception System
One of the most profound things about Pantheon is how we are designing the game from the ground up so that the Environment truly matters – we want players to care about the world they are in, and why things are the way they are. When you think of MMOs, when is the last time you discovered the meaning, or the history, or the secrets of a person, place or event without being told by a text box? What if we’ve conceived of a way to bring players back to exploring because they are compelled by what they see in front of them - not because a blinking light tells them to go there? In Pantheon, Wizards will be able to perceive things that a Warrior cannot. Through prayer, a Cleric may gain insight into an area, or a creature, that a Rogue could never know. Through our perception system, Pantheon will redefine how the game world becomes known, and how players will work together to progress