SOE/DBG was and still is desperate for anything that stop them form slowly fading in to obscurity. They literally had nothing to loose from trying this. Not only have Everquest lost any cultural significance it might have had. It did no longer generate any real buzz. Compare WoW´s last expansion to EQ 1 or 2 last expansion when it comes to making waves within both the community and media at large.
To DBG this was a desperate but solid move.. low cost and a good way to gain some favor.
It is not up to debate that EQ and EQ2 Legacy Servers are less successful than what they hoped for. This is beside the point. The point is that some of you keep coming up with silly calculations and absurd inflated extra costs to support their theory that the Legacy servers were not viable economically, when it's a proven fact that a bunch of kids with zero budget and a smaller company than Blizzard can pull it off. So worse case scenario Blizz can make Legacy Servers without losing money, but best case scenario, they might prove more popular than EQ/EQ2 Legacy Servers, but Blizzard will never really know until they try. That is the point number 1.
Point number 2 some of you are adamant in stating the Legacy servers won't make sense, you keep saying that Blizzard has everything to lose from making those Servers. But exactly what, because that's not really clear yet. I admit that there is a possibility that you might be right, I am open to hear a reasonable scenario, but so far nobody came up with a believable reason of what exactly Blizzard could lose by opening Legacy Servers.
1) Profit margins are priority #1 - They cancelled the planned D3 expansion not because it wouldn't be profitable, but because it wouldn't be profitable enough.
That's all it is. That's what I am trying to explain since I started posting in this thread. I believe that Blizzard could make a decent amount of money from Legacy Servers , however I do believe that their margin would be lower than the Live Servers. Translated in English that means that the Legacy Servers will make less money for every Dollar invested (but they will make money).
This is a cold and heartless Business decision, which is common practice in Business. Maximizing the Margin is at the heart of every business, so Blizzard is perfectly entitled to do the same as any Bank or Building Society out there.
However Blizzard trade in the Entertainment business, it's not a soulless Bank. It has some moral duty towards its fan base (or at least I think they should have). So in the end it all come down to this. Some of you think that Blizzard is just like any other Business (which technically is) and should behave like any other Business with no moral obligation towards their fans. On the other hand some of us think that unless Blizzard are clearly damaged by their own actions (and I explained many times that they won't) they should meet their fans expectations, which is not entitlement as Blizzard doesn't own me anything.
So Blizzard are entitled to behave like any other Business out there, but I am free to disagree with their cold pragmatic decisions and expect better from them (and they could do much better in many ways).
Say what you will about ethics, justice and law. No one really gives a crap. Thievery is how the current world works. From the smallest business to the greatest giant, all of them need to steal, lie and cheat in order to survive.
Ownership is arbitrary. Whatever you own today, with enough hands greased, someone else will own it tomorrow. The private server's only problem is that it can't grease more hands than the official owner.
People on here taking a high and mighty stance on right and wrong..blah blah blah. How many here go on sites like putlocker and watch a new movie or the latest episode of game of thrones because its not available in their own country yet. Whenever there is a demand for something, someone will always step up to provide, and the general public doesnt give a crap who provides it.
That doesnt mean such behaviour needs to publicly advertised and defended
That depends on your point of view. This topic has obviously polarized the community.
People on here taking a high and mighty stance on right and wrong..blah blah blah. How many here go on sites like putlocker and watch a new movie or the latest episode of game of thrones because its not available in their own country yet. Whenever there is a demand for something, someone will always step up to provide, and the general public doesnt give a crap who provides it.
That doesnt mean such behaviour needs to publicly advertised and defended
Have you heard my posts at all? All I talk about is Blizzard Legacy Servers, not Private Vanilla Servers. If you want to have a debate read my posts first and reply in context, instead of making comments out of place.
But that is the point... There is no HARD proof that there is actually a large PAYING customer base.. This mostly because of a few catch 22´s (mostly that the pirvate servers can´t charge a sub fee and that beyond P.99 no company have tried work with or on making a large scale legacy server work.)
But this is the actual point.
Why Blizzard don't acquire the Nostalrium code (which is free) set up a couple of Servers, and see how that goes. They have nothing to lose, worst that can happen they will have to shut the Legacy Servers after a couple of months, but that would also shut up all the Vanilla fan base for good.
Instead they are making the issue worse, blowing it out of proportion, and in all this mess they also risk to be seen like the bad guys.
They could have everything to lose. You don't know that. You know nothing about the risks and benefits from the perspective of Blizzard.
They aren't making anything worse. The entitlement crowd is making the deal out of it. Their customers, outside of a few attention seekers, don't view them as the bad guys. Their customers are paying for their games right now. The freeloaders aren't. I can't see their customers even giving a shit about the freeloaders and what they want.
You realize the original petition Mark Kern presented to Blizzard had over 275,000 signatures. That's more than just a few people interested in legacy servers. The fact you call them freeloaders when Blizzard doesn't offer them an official alternative is also unfair. If they want a product and Blizzard ignores them, of course they will go where the product is available. The fact it happens to be freeshards has nothing to do with who these people are. Blizzard is ignoring them, so I don't have a problem with what they are doing.
FYI making excuses for piracy is usually not a valid argument
And oh just so you wait till Blizzard visits them with some strong armed lawyers because these smartasses really feel the need to play with fire aka a multibillion dollar company that could fuck them in the butthole with a lawsuit so hard that their grandkids would be still paying for the legal damages.
I'm not promoting pirating software or IP, I'm scolding Blizzard for being asshats about it, dragging their feet.
Do you have any idea how business works? The "demand" for vanilla servers after this whole issue blew up resulted in the Nost people being invited to Blizzard HQ in JUNE. With a major expansion to be released in August and all the subsequent content and work that needs to be done in the immediate half year after that, who could reasonably expect that any announcement of vanilla servers would be made? I can't believe that a scant six months of time and Blizzard not speaking of vanilla servers between June and now is "dragging their feet"? LOL that's rich.
Businesses, unlike people, don't make decisions in a snap and let's not forget that this is Blizzard that is famous for the "when it's done" mentality on any project. Heck, they worked on Project Titan for what? 7 years without a word and then trashed the whole thing? Blizzard is also expert at keeping its inner projects secret and out of the public eye until it's nearly finished and they want to talk about it.
It's easy to forget fundamental business practices and business practices have nothing to do with being "asshats" or about fulfilling the instant gratification needs of any group of players.
be careful with such statements, before you get stoned by Elysium/Nostalrium apologists
be careful with such statements, before you get a reputation of just posting single sentence nonsense to get your post count up.
Nost code was given on condition that it will be stopped as soon as Blizzard makes the next move. Elysium knew that and they decided to fish out as much as possible from Nost player base before switching to another code that year behind in development. What did they both didn't anticipate is Blizzard moving in so fast they hopped that it will take a couple of months by which time the players would have invested too much time and effort to move to another server or stop playing !
People on here taking a high and mighty stance on right and wrong..blah blah blah. How many here go on sites like putlocker and watch a new movie or the latest episode of game of thrones because its not available in their own country yet. Whenever there is a demand for something, someone will always step up to provide, and the general public doesnt give a crap who provides it.
That doesnt mean such behaviour needs to publicly advertised and defended
Have you read my posts at all? All I talk about is Blizzard Legacy Servers, not Private Vanilla Servers. If you want to have a debate read my posts first and reply in context, instead of making comments out of place.
I corrected your post before DMKano is all over you
Until you can answer my original questions (which you cant) your $6 theory is just pie in the sky.
It is not a theory.... It is a simple example of how little 1 mil dollars actually are once you spread it out over a decent playerbase... You can take it or leave it.
Anyway. I have given all the explanation i can. You can take that or leave it too. Because until you produce any solid numbers i feel no need to spend the time to dig out the numbers needed and do the math for you. All you and your lot´s arguments are emotional and as such carry about the same weight as a feather. My arguments are at least tentatively anchored in reality.
Until you can answer my original questions (which you cant) your $6 theory is just pie in the sky.
It is not a theory.... It is a simple example of how little 1 mil dollars actually are once you spread it out over a decent playerbase... You can take it or leave it.
Anyway. I have given all the explanation i can. You can take that or leave it too. Because until you produce any solid numbers i feel no need to spend the time to dig out the numbers needed and do the math for you. All you and your lot´s arguments are emotional and as such carry about the same weight as a feather. My arguments are at least tentatively anchored in reality.
You are basing your math on numbers you dont even know, so yes, its theory. If you're going to make statements like you did then back them up with actual facts. How was your argument anchored in reality? you came up with some random numbers based on a whole lot of nothing. You dont see a need to dig up the numbers? And how would you dig up these numbers exactly? You cant. Because 1. you dont have a clue what it would cost Blizzard overall. 2. you dont have access to Elysium stats or the stats of any of the other dozens of pirate servers out there.
You label ''my lot'' as emotional but if you look back on my posts ive conceded that i dont have all the facts, ive also agreed with some others in this thread who have made arguments supporting Blizzard. I havent put myself in any camp, but you obviously have. So who's arguments are emotional?
You are basing your math on numbers you dont even know, so yes, its theory. If you're going to make statements like you did then back them up with actual facts. How was your argument anchored in reality? you came up with some random numbers based on a whole lot of nothing. You dont see a need to dig up the numbers? And how would you dig up these numbers exactly? You cant. Because 1. you dont have a clue what it would cost Blizzard overall. 2. you dont have access to Elysium stats or the stats of any of the other dozens of pirate servers out there.
You label ''my lot'' as emotional but if you look back on my posts ive conceded that i dont have all the facts, ive also agreed with some others in this thread who have made arguments supporting Blizzard. I havent put myself in any camp, but you obviously have. So who's arguments are emotional?
No... there was a touting of a number of activated accounts from the Ely people... And someone made a point by posting a video stating a certain dollar value... Then they said that these two proved that a legacy server was a success waiting to happen... I just debunked that. Based on the number we had...
As for the rest.. I just go by what 5 years at university in the field of project management have taught me about A: risk vs reward B: how bullheaded companies can be. Are they absolut truths... Ofc not. But they are a fuck closer than just sitting there burping forth "vanilla servers will make tons of money".. Again.. not directed at you specifically... More your general brood.
But no... It would take months to put together even a half decent one (using public, not so public numbers and some averages) and there is no service you can offer that is worth that. (as to how i´d get the numbers... Well.. Let´s say that while day fresh numbers are very hard to get you do not really need that to make a working model... numbers a few years old work just fine. )
Now ofc i can not know exactly what this cost Blizzard at this day. But i can get info on what services cost in general, same with salaries and utilities. Same with old financial reports and shit. it pops up in the weirdest of places.
As for Elysium numbers... I do not really need them per se... If i get the rest of the numbers it becomes a fairly standard operation to calculate how much people need to actually go to Blizzard to make it work. How many they have at this point is then only interesting from a purely academic standpoint. (also i am sure that with enough digging i could get those too... But fuck spending that kind of money)
But yes i label your lot as emotional... Not as in hysterical (most at least) but as in building arguments based on things like nostalgia and a notion of a moral obligation. That is one of the few iron clad facts i have... That many of the arguements for legacy servers in this thread and others are made from a emotional point. You can argue it all you like but it still remains a fact.
My arguments are based on A: book knowledge B: Experience C: Facts (as airy as they might be).. ergo they are not emotional. That is not the same as having emotions or being emotionally invested... Just saying as that seems to be a point going over your head.
You are basing your math on numbers you dont even know, so yes, its theory. If you're going to make statements like you did then back them up with actual facts. How was your argument anchored in reality? you came up with some random numbers based on a whole lot of nothing. You dont see a need to dig up the numbers? And how would you dig up these numbers exactly? You cant. Because 1. you dont have a clue what it would cost Blizzard overall. 2. you dont have access to Elysium stats or the stats of any of the other dozens of pirate servers out there.
You label ''my lot'' as emotional but if you look back on my posts ive conceded that i dont have all the facts, ive also agreed with some others in this thread who have made arguments supporting Blizzard. I havent put myself in any camp, but you obviously have. So who's arguments are emotional?
No... there was a touting of a number of activated accounts from the Ely people... And someone made a point by posting a video stating a certain dollar value... Then they said that these two proved that a legacy server was a success waiting to happen... I just debunked that. Based on the number we had...
As for the rest.. I just go by what 5 years at university in the field of project management have taught me about A: risk vs reward B: how bullheaded companies can be. Are they absolut truths... Ofc not. But they are a fuck closer than just sitting there burping forth "vanilla servers will make tons of money".. Again.. not directed at you specifically... More your general brood.
But no... It would take months to put together even a half decent one (using public, not so public numbers and some averages) and there is no service you can offer that is worth that. (as to how i´d get the numbers... Well.. Let´s say that while day fresh numbers are very hard to get you do not really need that to make a working model... numbers a few years old work just fine. )
Now ofc i can not know exactly what this cost Blizzard at this day. But i can get info on what services cost in general, same with salaries and utilities. Same with old financial reports and shit. it pops up in the weirdest of places.
As for Elysium numbers... I do not really need them per se... If i get the rest of the numbers it becomes a fairly standard operation to calculate how much people need to actually go to Blizzard to make it work. How many they have at this point is then only interesting from a purely academic standpoint. (also i am sure that with enough digging i could get those too... But fuck spending that kind of money)
But yes i label your lot as emotional... Not as in hysterical (most at least) but as in building arguments based on things like nostalgia and a notion of a moral obligation. That is one of the few iron clad facts i have... That many of the arguements for legacy servers in this thread and others are made from a emotional point. You can argue it all you like but it still remains a fact.
My arguments are based on A: book knowledge B: Experience C: Facts (as airy as they might be).. ergo they are not emotional. That is not the same as having emotions or being emotionally invested... Just saying as that seems to be a point going over your head.
You can make your reply as long as you want. You cant answer my questions so your numbers are based on nothing. How is anything ive suggested in my posts based on Nostalgia or a notion of moral obligation? Ive never played on a pirate server and ive said more than once in other threads that i dont know if i would play on a Legacy server if Blizzard made them. If you go through this thread you'll find emotional posts from people arguing for and against legacy, and ill say again, i havent put myself in any camp, you did that.
''That is one of the few iron clad facts i have... That many of the arguements for legacy servers in this thread and others are made from a emotional point. You can argue it all you like but it still remains a fact. ''
I think if you step down from your pedestal you'll see that its called an ''opinion'' not a ''iron clad fact''
Are you the only one on MMORPG.com that argues about legacy servers..?
If not... maybe my posts was aimed at a wider market... =P
Anyway.. I stand by my claim about "many arguments".. In fact i can use scientific methods to prove my claim.
Your opinion that what i can prove as fact is an opinion... will be just that otoh.
Just so we don't have to deal with the imminent semantics argument, you can't "prove" it using your methods, but you can create a much more compelling argument, that's for sure. The only flaw here is that on the Internet, opinion trumps truth.
Are you the only one on MMORPG.com that argues about legacy servers..?
If not... maybe my posts was aimed at a wider market... =P
Anyway.. I stand by my claim about "many arguments".. In fact i can use scientific methods to prove my claim.
Your opinion that what i can prove as fact is an opinion... will be just that otoh.
Twice you labeled me as part of an emotional group, so i responded to your labeling of me. And what scientific methods could you use to prove your claim about the people posting here? Maybe these methods can also conjure up some answers to my earlier questions too
My opinion that your claim of facts is in fact an opinion is indeed an opinion.
the brood of whom you argue in favor of from time to time (and as such wear their colors for that time) does...
feel better now.
Anyway... there are several different methods to examine and analyze discourse and argumentation. It is not exactly witchcraft... But they are fairly useless for calculating the operative cost of a company.
They are very useful to figure out why people do what they do (and to a limited extent.. what they might do next)
the brood of whom you argue in favor of from time to time (and as such wear their colors for that time) does...
feel better now.
Anyway... there are several different methods to examine and analyze discourse and argumentation. It is not exactly witchcraft... But they are fairly useless for calculating the operative cost of a company.
They are very useful to figure out why people do what they do (and to a limited extent.. what they might do next)
My ego is fine. I havent once claimed to have the answers to anything and more than once have conceded to other posters when they have made compelling arguments. Most of my conversation with you has consisted of asking you to answer some questions to back up your claims.. which you have yet to do, despite your lenghty posts about your education and scientific methods etc.
because people working for free cost a fuckton less and have no shareholders to answer to when they fuck up.
As others have pointed out.. At blizzards level.. it is not about making money.. but not making ENOUGH money.. something a private server do not need to care about. In fact.. the less money they make the better.
Well, if it is indeed not profitable enough for a multi-billion dollar industry to manage, yet some random dudes around the world can setup a server in less than a day, I fail to see the connection. Legacy servers require minimal maintenance and zero upgrades. That is the whole point of a Legacy server. People don't want any of that crap. So if you mean to tell me a stable Legacy server that is wanted by a minimum of 275k people would not be profitable, I have to question your education.
There is so much wrong with that opinion:
1) Legacy servers run by Blizzard would require a team to maintain and to provide customer service to patrons.
2) Legacy server code would need to be modernized to be compatible with Blizzard's new file system and with Battle.net.
3) Blizzard has certain standard of quality that most of the code from these servers would not meet. They have a quality standard that they want and need to adhere to. "We explored options for developing classic servers and none could be executed without great difficulty. If we could push a button and all of this would be created, we would. However, there are tremendous operational challenges to integrating classic servers, not to mention the ongoing support of multiple live versions for every aspect of WoW." For your reference: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743584206
4) Probably most importantly: We don't KNOW if they want to or will enable vanilla servers. Blizzard's time is not our time and it may very well be that they will implement them. Just because it's not on the time schedule of "fans" of classic servers doesn't mean it won 't happen. It's also equally likely that they simply don't want to and that is their full right.
Timing is about right, by now if Blizzard was taking legal action against the individuals that made up the Nostalrius team then they would have received some kind of notice. Alternatively, job prospects were looking gloomy due to a possible blacklisting in the industry for them. Give it another month for more news to hit the gossip columns.
Ask again and i will oblige (because i do not have the energy to go back and actually look them up)
Okay fine, but if you cant be bothered to go back and look up my questions, how are you going to find the willpower to find the data to answer them?
How many active players does Elysium have? How many of that figure transfered from Nostalrius? (because they are just a couple of months old) Out of the million in gold sales since last year, how much of that was done in the last few months when Elysiums population exploded from the Nostalrius transfers? (because there's a big difference between a million in sales over a full year as opposed to a million in sales just since November) How many more gold sellers are active on Elysium other than the 2 that were hacked? How many people who didnt buy gold would do so if it was from a trusted source? (Blizzard) How many people who dont buy gold at all would still buy something in a vanilla cash shop? How many people are playing on pirate servers? I know of more than a dozen other servers. Would blizzard charge a monthly sub or would it be B2P ? maybe something different all together?
I tell you that 2 gold sellers were hacked and that since last year they had completed more than a million dollars in gold sales just on Elysium, and from that you look up some figure that told you there's 150,000 active players on there servers (i dont know where you got that number btw) so you do some quick calculator math and come up with $6 per year per person without taking into consideration any of those basic questions i brought up, which to me seem very valid.
Now let me quote what you said to begin with which started this back and forth..
''But that is the point... There is no HARD proof that there is actually a large PAYING customer base..''
My reply to that was to prove to you with actual data that there is indeed a large PAYING customer base.
If anyone has an ego here its you. You couldnt let it go and changed the argument from ''there's no proof of a large paying customer base'' to ''there's not enough profit to cover the cost of running a server'' and then proceeded to back that claim up with numbers you pulled out of thin air.
So by all means, anwer my questions and show me the data that backs your claim up as fact. Do that and i will happily concede.
Well, if it is indeed not profitable enough for a multi-billion dollar industry to manage, yet some random dudes around the world can setup a server in less than a day, I fail to see the connection. Legacy servers require minimal maintenance and zero upgrades. That is the whole point of a Legacy server. People don't want any of that crap. So if you mean to tell me a stable Legacy server that is wanted by a minimum of 275k people would not be profitable, I have to question your education.
First off, larger companies look to optimize their resources. For instance, my company is only interested in looking at markets of $100 million or more if we're going to enter a new market. A big reason for that is that there is some inherent risk. There is effort required as well, believe it or not, and there is ongoing maintenance required in order to keep that service going, which requires resources. If, IF, they could maintain 300k subscriptions, consistently, then I'm sure it's something that they might consider. However, the private servers don't, necessarily, prove that people want Legacy servers, since most of them have some modifications to the original code which affects things like xp curves, etc. Oh, there's also the matter of people paying BLIZZARD to make this happen. How many of the 300k people are just raving hipsters trying to "damn the man"?
So the question becomes, how many people will ACTUALLY sign up for a legacy service at $15 a month with Blizzard? How many people would it take to maintain those servers/services? This gives us the revenue per employee which is a HUGE performance indicator for performance. Let's say that A/B is currently turning $1 million in revenues per employee. That means that they would need to maintain, on average, 100k subscribers in order to meet their current performance. Despite what you might think, 300k is not a massive market when you have companies as large as A/B, and they need to be focused on their shareholders. If they can't justify it to their shareholders, then it's a no-go. They aren't a niche business, so it amazes me that they would consider it at all. My guess is that it's a grey area item. Something which appears to have a market, but still has too many unknowns to take a risk on.
because people working for free cost a fuckton less and have no shareholders to answer to when they fuck up.
As others have pointed out.. At blizzards level.. it is not about making money.. but not making ENOUGH money.. something a private server do not need to care about. In fact.. the less money they make the better.
Exactly. As I also pointed out in my previous post, the major culprit for Blizzard behavior is its obsession with the Margin. Forget all those calculations made using phantom numbers as we already
established that worse case scenario the Legacy Servers won't lose
money, as Nostalrius, P99 and Daybreak with their Official Legacy Servers proved that already.
So now that we finally established that the issue here is that Blizzard can't be arsed to make Legacy Servers because they won't make enough money (compared to the live servers), what it's left to establish is if people support this decision and why.
Personally I think they should make a small sacrifice and give in to the players that are asking for those Servers. Mind you I am not debating the right for Blizzard to maximize their Margin, they are absolutely entitled to do so if they wish, because that's what every company do. However the Legacy Servers would be a much smaller operation than the whole WoW business and can easily be absorbed by the existing WoW infrastructure, so it would not affect WoW overall Margin by much.
My question is, for a Company that make Billions and have such a passionate and loyal fan base is it worth dragging their feet over something up to -0.5% Margin? Keep in mind that even with the Margin decreasing you can still have more Profits, so lower Margin doesn't always equal lower profit, and with the addition of the Legacy Servers I estimate their Profits could go up by up to +5% (at least for the first 3 months).
But I have another theory, I think the Margin is just a convenient excuse, I think the reason is more personal. Making Legacy Servers would be like admitting that their recent work is not good enough, and that must hurt their ego, which is understandable, I am sure they put lot of passion in their Expansions and nobody like to see their hard job gone to waste.
Maybe I am wrong but I think they are just stubborn at this point.
because people working for free cost a fuckton less and have no shareholders to answer to when they fuck up.
As others have pointed out.. At blizzards level.. it is not about making money.. but not making ENOUGH money.. something a private server do not need to care about. In fact.. the less money they make the better.
Exactly. As I also pointed out in my previous post, the major culprit for Blizzard behavior is its obsession with the Margin. Forget all those calculations made using phantom numbers as we already
established that worse case scenario the Legacy Servers won't lose
money, as Nostalrius, P99 and Daybreak with their Official Legacy Servers proved that already.
So now that we finally established that the issue here is that Blizzard can't be arsed to make Legacy Servers because they won't make enough money (compared to the live servers), what it's left to establish is if people support this decision and why.
Personally I think they should make a small sacrifice and give in to the players that are asking for those Servers. Mind you I am not debating the right for Blizzard to maximize their Margin, they are absolutely entitled to do so if they wish, because that's what every company do. However the Legacy Servers would be a much smaller operation than the whole WoW business and can easily be absorbed by the existing WoW infrastructure, so it would not affect WoW overall Margin by much.
My question is, for a Company that make Billions and have such a passionate and loyal fan base is it worth dragging their feet over something up to -0.5% Margin? Keep in mind that even with the Margin decreasing you can still have more Profits, so lower Margin doesn't always equal lower profit, and with the addition of the Legacy Servers I estimate their Profits could go up by up to +5% (at least for the first 3 months).
But I have another theory, I think the Margin is just a convenient excuse, I think the reason is more personal. Making Legacy Servers would be like admitting that their recent work is not good enough, and that must hurt their ego, which is understandable, I am sure they put lot of passion in their expansions and nobody like to see their hard job gone to waste. Maybe I am wrong but I think they are just stubborn.
I have had this same thought before as well. Im always thinking back to a few years ago when Legacy servers were brought up at Blizcon (i think it was Blizcon) and the audience was told '' you think you want them but you dont'' and then obviously Nostalrius showed everyone that there was a very large population of players who did in fact want it. Since then the desire of Legacy servers has only increased and i do sometimes wonder if all of this drama is because of someones pride in a boardroom somewhere.
I didnt really expect Blizzard to announce Legacy servers at Blizcon last year but considering how many paying gamers were asking about them on the forums in the run up to Blizcon i was a little baffled why they wouldnt at least give them some line about how its being worked on and looked into (even if that wasnt true) just to keep people pacified.
I have had this same thought before as well. Im always thinking back to a few years ago when Legacy servers were brought up at Blizcon (i think it was Blizcon) and the audience was told '' you think you want them but you dont'' and then obviously Nostalrius showed everyone that there was a very large population of players who did in fact want it.
You know that's exactly the reason why I think that the issue is more personal than people think. That kind of reply was so rude and uncalled for, you could tell they were seriously irritated by that question. I get it though if I was in their shoes I would probably get annoyed too, after putting so much effort in the next Expansion people keep banging about a version of the game which is 10 years older. That's understandable, but I think they should give in, I am sure is not going to be a financial disaster for them, and if the Server proves themselves unsuccessful they can finally shut up the vocal minority and put the whole issue to rest. Best case scenario, the Servers are successful and they get an extra Million players.
Comments
Have you heard my posts at all?
All I talk about is Blizzard Legacy Servers, not Private Vanilla Servers.
If you want to have a debate read my posts first and reply in context, instead of making comments out of place.
Anyway. I have given all the explanation i can. You can take that or leave it too. Because until you produce any solid numbers i feel no need to spend the time to dig out the numbers needed and do the math for you. All you and your lot´s arguments are emotional and as such carry about the same weight as a feather. My arguments are at least tentatively anchored in reality.
This have been a good conversation
Released "on an understanding" means the Nost team are guilty offacilitating Elysium.
Open source they are simply "indirectly" guilty.
If you're going to make statements like you did then back them up with actual facts.
How was your argument anchored in reality? you came up with some random numbers based on a whole lot of nothing.
You dont see a need to dig up the numbers? And how would you dig up these numbers exactly?
You cant. Because 1. you dont have a clue what it would cost Blizzard overall. 2. you dont have access to Elysium stats or the stats of any of the other dozens of pirate servers out there.
You label ''my lot'' as emotional but if you look back on my posts ive conceded that i dont have all the facts, ive also agreed with some others in this thread who have made arguments supporting Blizzard. I havent put myself in any camp, but you obviously have. So who's arguments are emotional?
As for the rest.. I just go by what 5 years at university in the field of project management have taught me about A: risk vs reward B: how bullheaded companies can be. Are they absolut truths... Ofc not. But they are a fuck closer than just sitting there burping forth "vanilla servers will make tons of money".. Again.. not directed at you specifically... More your general brood.
But no... It would take months to put together even a half decent one (using public, not so public numbers and some averages) and there is no service you can offer that is worth that. (as to how i´d get the numbers... Well.. Let´s say that while day fresh numbers are very hard to get you do not really need that to make a working model... numbers a few years old work just fine. )
Now ofc i can not know exactly what this cost Blizzard at this day. But i can get info on what services cost in general, same with salaries and utilities. Same with old financial reports and shit. it pops up in the weirdest of places.
As for Elysium numbers... I do not really need them per se... If i get the rest of the numbers it becomes a fairly standard operation to calculate how much people need to actually go to Blizzard to make it work. How many they have at this point is then only interesting from a purely academic standpoint. (also i am sure that with enough digging i could get those too... But fuck spending that kind of money)
But yes i label your lot as emotional... Not as in hysterical (most at least) but as in building arguments based on things like nostalgia and a notion of a moral obligation. That is one of the few iron clad facts i have... That many of the arguements for legacy servers in this thread and others are made from a emotional point. You can argue it all you like but it still remains a fact.
My arguments are based on A: book knowledge B: Experience C: Facts (as airy as they might be).. ergo they are not emotional. That is not the same as having emotions or being emotionally invested... Just saying as that seems to be a point going over your head.
This have been a good conversation
How is anything ive suggested in my posts based on Nostalgia or a notion of moral obligation? Ive never played on a pirate server and ive said more than once in other threads that i dont know if i would play on a Legacy server if Blizzard made them.
If you go through this thread you'll find emotional posts from people arguing for and against legacy, and ill say again, i havent put myself in any camp, you did that.
''That is one of the few iron clad facts i have... That many of the arguements for legacy servers in this thread and others are made from a emotional point. You can argue it all you like but it still remains a fact. ''
I think if you step down from your pedestal you'll see that its called an ''opinion'' not a ''iron clad fact''
If not... maybe my posts was aimed at a wider market... =P
Anyway.. I stand by my claim about "many arguments".. In fact i can use scientific methods to prove my claim.
Your opinion that what i can prove as fact is an opinion... will be just that otoh.
This have been a good conversation
Just so we don't have to deal with the imminent semantics argument, you can't "prove" it using your methods, but you can create a much more compelling argument, that's for sure. The only flaw here is that on the Internet, opinion trumps truth.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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This have been a good conversation
And what scientific methods could you use to prove your claim about the people posting here? Maybe these methods can also conjure up some answers to my earlier questions too
My opinion that your claim of facts is in fact an opinion is indeed an opinion.
the brood of whom you argue in favor of from time to time (and as such wear their colors for that time) does...
feel better now.
Anyway... there are several different methods to examine and analyze discourse and argumentation. It is not exactly witchcraft... But they are fairly useless for calculating the operative cost of a company.
They are very useful to figure out why people do what they do (and to a limited extent.. what they might do next)
This have been a good conversation
Ask again and i will oblige (because i do not have the energy to go back and actually look them up)
This have been a good conversation
As others have pointed out.. At blizzards level.. it is not about making money.. but not making ENOUGH money.. something a private server do not need to care about. In fact.. the less money they make the better.
This have been a good conversation
1) Legacy servers run by Blizzard would require a team to maintain and to provide customer service to patrons.
2) Legacy server code would need to be modernized to be compatible with Blizzard's new file system and with Battle.net.
3) Blizzard has certain standard of quality that most of the code from these servers would not meet. They have a quality standard that they want and need to adhere to. "We explored options for developing classic servers and none could be executed without great difficulty. If we could push a button and all of this would be created, we would. However, there are tremendous operational challenges to integrating classic servers, not to mention the ongoing support of multiple live versions for every aspect of WoW." For your reference: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743584206
4) Probably most importantly: We don't KNOW if they want to or will enable vanilla servers. Blizzard's time is not our time and it may very well be that they will implement them. Just because it's not on the time schedule of "fans" of classic servers doesn't mean it won 't happen. It's also equally likely that they simply don't want to and that is their full right.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
How many active players does Elysium have?
How many of that figure transfered from Nostalrius? (because they are just a couple of months old)
Out of the million in gold sales since last year, how much of that was done in the last few months when Elysiums population exploded from the Nostalrius transfers? (because there's a big difference between a million in sales over a full year as opposed to a million in sales just since November)
How many more gold sellers are active on Elysium other than the 2 that were hacked?
How many people who didnt buy gold would do so if it was from a trusted source? (Blizzard)
How many people who dont buy gold at all would still buy something in a vanilla cash shop?
How many people are playing on pirate servers? I know of more than a dozen other servers.
Would blizzard charge a monthly sub or would it be B2P ? maybe something different all together?
I tell you that 2 gold sellers were hacked and that since last year they had completed more than a million dollars in gold sales just on Elysium, and from that you look up some figure that told you there's 150,000 active players on there servers (i dont know where you got that number btw) so you do some quick calculator math and come up with $6 per year per person without taking into consideration any of those basic questions i brought up, which to me seem very valid.
Now let me quote what you said to begin with which started this back and forth..
''But that is the point... There is no HARD proof that there is actually a large PAYING customer base..''
My reply to that was to prove to you with actual data that there is indeed a large PAYING customer base.
If anyone has an ego here its you. You couldnt let it go and changed the argument from ''there's no proof of a large paying customer base'' to ''there's not enough profit to cover the cost of running a server'' and then proceeded to back that claim up with numbers you pulled out of thin air.
So by all means, anwer my questions and show me the data that backs your claim up as fact. Do that and i will happily concede.
First off, larger companies look to optimize their resources. For instance, my company is only interested in looking at markets of $100 million or more if we're going to enter a new market. A big reason for that is that there is some inherent risk. There is effort required as well, believe it or not, and there is ongoing maintenance required in order to keep that service going, which requires resources. If, IF, they could maintain 300k subscriptions, consistently, then I'm sure it's something that they might consider. However, the private servers don't, necessarily, prove that people want Legacy servers, since most of them have some modifications to the original code which affects things like xp curves, etc. Oh, there's also the matter of people paying BLIZZARD to make this happen. How many of the 300k people are just raving hipsters trying to "damn the man"?
So the question becomes, how many people will ACTUALLY sign up for a legacy service at $15 a month with Blizzard? How many people would it take to maintain those servers/services? This gives us the revenue per employee which is a HUGE performance indicator for performance. Let's say that A/B is currently turning $1 million in revenues per employee. That means that they would need to maintain, on average, 100k subscribers in order to meet their current performance. Despite what you might think, 300k is not a massive market when you have companies as large as A/B, and they need to be focused on their shareholders. If they can't justify it to their shareholders, then it's a no-go. They aren't a niche business, so it amazes me that they would consider it at all. My guess is that it's a grey area item. Something which appears to have a market, but still has too many unknowns to take a risk on.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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As I also pointed out in my previous post, the major culprit for Blizzard behavior is its obsession with the Margin.
Forget all those calculations made using phantom numbers as we already established that worse case scenario the Legacy Servers won't lose money, as Nostalrius, P99 and Daybreak with their Official Legacy Servers proved that already.
So now that we finally established that the issue here is that Blizzard can't be arsed to make Legacy Servers because they won't make enough money (compared to the live servers), what it's left to establish is if people support this decision and why.
Personally I think they should make a small sacrifice and give in to the players that are asking for those Servers.
Mind you I am not debating the right for Blizzard to maximize their Margin, they are absolutely entitled to do so if they wish, because that's what every company do.
However the Legacy Servers would be a much smaller operation than the whole WoW business and can easily be absorbed by the existing WoW infrastructure, so it would not affect WoW overall Margin by much.
My question is, for a Company that make Billions and have such a passionate and loyal fan base is it worth dragging their feet over something up to -0.5% Margin?
Keep in mind that even with the Margin decreasing you can still have more Profits, so lower Margin doesn't always equal lower profit, and with the addition of the Legacy Servers I estimate their Profits could go up by up to +5% (at least for the first 3 months).
But I have another theory, I think the Margin is just a convenient excuse, I think the reason is more personal.
Making Legacy Servers would be like admitting that their recent work is not good enough, and that must hurt their ego, which is understandable, I am sure they put lot of passion in their Expansions and nobody like to see their hard job gone to waste.
Maybe I am wrong but I think they are just stubborn at this point.
I didnt really expect Blizzard to announce Legacy servers at Blizcon last year but considering how many paying gamers were asking about them on the forums in the run up to Blizcon i was a little baffled why they wouldnt at least give them some line about how its being worked on and looked into (even if that wasnt true) just to keep people pacified.
That kind of reply was so rude and uncalled for, you could tell they were seriously irritated by that question.
I get it though if I was in their shoes I would probably get annoyed too, after putting so much effort in the next Expansion people keep banging about a version of the game which is 10 years older.
That's understandable, but I think they should give in, I am sure is not going to be a financial disaster for them, and if the Server proves themselves unsuccessful they can finally shut up the vocal minority and put the whole issue to rest.
Best case scenario, the Servers are successful and they get an extra Million players.