Does Star Citizen REALLY exist?

Pigozz

DKLond said:

Pigozz said:

genaknosc said:

Pigozz said:

[Mansion construction analogy]

Great analogy if you included nobody ever having attempted to build a mansion as big as that before and the technologies for the houses components had not ever been combined successfully in that manner before either.

You would sound a lot like my curious neighbor though, who is dumb as shit btw, and I get tired of listening to him rant about global warming and obamacare, when he is in fact covered by ACA.

I dont get how your neighbor analogy fits into mine as it makes 0 sense but I couldnt care less

On the other hand the fact that the supervisor tries this  never-before-achieved project and shows some random half-assed parts years and millions of dollars later - that should make one pretty sceptical

I really believe they are trying to make it work, but they are completeley over their heads. And its not just putting all these modules together

Its the terrible lag, the performance, the bugs and the content and balance that gets me worried, because these things take time, A LOT of time

(also the entire SQ42 project seems fishy as f**k)

Why are you so worried about completely par-for-the-course performance issues and bugs in a game under development during the alpha stage?

How many alpha stage games have you played that didn't have performance issues and bugs?

Are you aware that CIG are going out of their way to detail upcoming solutions to the primary issues - including both lag and performance - as well as hosting a show that REVOLVES around bugs and fixing them.

It's not like they're trying to claim it's not full of issues - they're actively trying to encourage all the backers to participate in solving these issues.

So, what's so fishy about it? I don't get it.

Nothing was shown from SQ42, even though this is the 3rd time it was supposed to be released - thats fishy

Full details in upcoming solutions like the time they stated they switched engine year after it was done? Or the time they are dead silent about why nothing from SQ42 was shown?

I was trying to say that they dont even have the basics for a crude game - aka the least viable product or hows it called - all they have are few separated game modules.
This means that the REAL problems are only about to come from connecting all the parts together..and after that the finalizing of the product eats almost half of the development time

So considering the scale of the game I seriously doubt it will release sooner than 2022

And Im really curious how many backers will be THAT patient

Thats what I meant they're completely over their heads

CrazKanuk

Pigozz said:

DKLond said:

Pigozz said:

genaknosc said:

Pigozz said:

[Mansion construction analogy]

Great analogy if you included nobody ever having attempted to build a mansion as big as that before and the technologies for the houses components had not ever been combined successfully in that manner before either.

You would sound a lot like my curious neighbor though, who is dumb as shit btw, and I get tired of listening to him rant about global warming and obamacare, when he is in fact covered by ACA.

I dont get how your neighbor analogy fits into mine as it makes 0 sense but I couldnt care less

On the other hand the fact that the supervisor tries this  never-before-achieved project and shows some random half-assed parts years and millions of dollars later - that should make one pretty sceptical

I really believe they are trying to make it work, but they are completeley over their heads. And its not just putting all these modules together

Its the terrible lag, the performance, the bugs and the content and balance that gets me worried, because these things take time, A LOT of time

(also the entire SQ42 project seems fishy as f**k)

Why are you so worried about completely par-for-the-course performance issues and bugs in a game under development during the alpha stage?

How many alpha stage games have you played that didn't have performance issues and bugs?

Are you aware that CIG are going out of their way to detail upcoming solutions to the primary issues - including both lag and performance - as well as hosting a show that REVOLVES around bugs and fixing them.

It's not like they're trying to claim it's not full of issues - they're actively trying to encourage all the backers to participate in solving these issues.

So, what's so fishy about it? I don't get it.

Nothing was shown from SQ42, even though this is the 3rd time it was supposed to be released - thats fishy

Full details in upcoming solutions like the time they stated they switched engine year after it was done? Or the time they are dead silent about why nothing from SQ42 was shown?

I was trying to say that they dont even have the basics for a crude game - aka the least viable product or hows it called - all they have are few separated game modules.
This means that the REAL problems are only about to come from connecting all the parts together..and after that the finalizing of the product eats almost half of the development time

So considering the scale of the game I seriously doubt it will release sooner than 2022

And Im really curious how many backers will be THAT patient

Thats what I meant they're completely over their heads

 Actually, they did at one point state that SQ42 was being placed on hold and they gave reasons for that. I mean it's not what I'd want to hear since SQ42 is really all I care about, but they did actually give a reason. 

Also, I'm not sure where you get that the REAL problems are only about to come from connecting the parts. Actually, that's wildly inaccurate. It's also inaccurate that the finalizing of the product eats almost half of your development time. They've already stated that they are using iterative development, so the idea that it takes half your time to go back over is a fallacy. You're talking much more waterfall where loopbacks come at a significant cost. In that same vein, the integration of modules in an iterative environment would/should be testing on an ongoing basis because the earlier you catch these, the quicker and cheaper the problem is to fix. 

On the grand scheme of things, testing is a small chunk of the process. In an Agile environment, the idea is that testing and development are happening in parallel, so the idea that finalizing something would take half your schedule is completely uninformed. At the end of each iteration, the idea is that you have a product that is shippable, ideally. Regardless of how loose you are with that definition, there is continual progress towards a released product. Testing of the product itself SHOULD be limited if they are testing in each iteration. Worst case, testing is an iteration behind. 

As far as your estimate goes, I'll take it with a grain of salt since you clearly haven't shown any idea about the software development process, so I don't know why I'd trust that you could accurately estimate a week ahead, let alone 5 years out.

Pigozz

CrazKanuk said:

Pigozz said:

DKLond said:

Pigozz said:

genaknosc said:

Pigozz said:

[Mansion construction analogy]

Great analogy if you included nobody ever having attempted to build a mansion as big as that before and the technologies for the houses components had not ever been combined successfully in that manner before either.

You would sound a lot like my curious neighbor though, who is dumb as shit btw, and I get tired of listening to him rant about global warming and obamacare, when he is in fact covered by ACA.

I dont get how your neighbor analogy fits into mine as it makes 0 sense but I couldnt care less

On the other hand the fact that the supervisor tries this  never-before-achieved project and shows some random half-assed parts years and millions of dollars later - that should make one pretty sceptical

I really believe they are trying to make it work, but they are completeley over their heads. And its not just putting all these modules together

Its the terrible lag, the performance, the bugs and the content and balance that gets me worried, because these things take time, A LOT of time

(also the entire SQ42 project seems fishy as f**k)

Why are you so worried about completely par-for-the-course performance issues and bugs in a game under development during the alpha stage?

How many alpha stage games have you played that didn't have performance issues and bugs?

Are you aware that CIG are going out of their way to detail upcoming solutions to the primary issues - including both lag and performance - as well as hosting a show that REVOLVES around bugs and fixing them.

It's not like they're trying to claim it's not full of issues - they're actively trying to encourage all the backers to participate in solving these issues.

So, what's so fishy about it? I don't get it.

Nothing was shown from SQ42, even though this is the 3rd time it was supposed to be released - thats fishy

Full details in upcoming solutions like the time they stated they switched engine year after it was done? Or the time they are dead silent about why nothing from SQ42 was shown?

I was trying to say that they dont even have the basics for a crude game - aka the least viable product or hows it called - all they have are few separated game modules.
This means that the REAL problems are only about to come from connecting all the parts together..and after that the finalizing of the product eats almost half of the development time

So considering the scale of the game I seriously doubt it will release sooner than 2022

And Im really curious how many backers will be THAT patient

Thats what I meant they're completely over their heads

 Actually, they did at one point state that SQ42 was being placed on hold and they gave reasons for that. I mean it's not what I'd want to hear since SQ42 is really all I care about, but they did actually give a reason. 

Also, I'm not sure where you get that the REAL problems are only about to come from connecting the parts. Actually, that's wildly inaccurate. It's also inaccurate that the finalizing of the product eats almost half of your development time. They've already stated that they are using iterative development, so the idea that it takes half your time to go back over is a fallacy. You're talking much more waterfall where loopbacks come at a significant cost. In that same vein, the integration of modules in an iterative environment would/should be testing on an ongoing basis because the earlier you catch these, the quicker and cheaper the problem is to fix. 

On the grand scheme of things, testing is a small chunk of the process. In an Agile environment, the idea is that testing and development are happening in parallel, so the idea that finalizing something would take half your schedule is completely uninformed. At the end of each iteration, the idea is that you have a product that is shippable, ideally. Regardless of how loose you are with that definition, there is continual progress towards a released product. Testing of the product itself SHOULD be limited if they are testing in each iteration. Worst case, testing is an iteration behind. 

As far as your estimate goes, I'll take it with a grain of salt since you clearly haven't shown any idea about the software development process, so I don't know why I'd trust that you could accurately estimate a week ahead, let alone 5 years out.

I am a software developer, former tester

Whatever,we'll see in 2022

Too tired to look for similar post by the likes of you being absolutely sure SQ42 would release mid 2015 and SC early 2017

CrazKanuk

Pigozz said:

CrazKanuk said:

Pigozz said:

Nothing was shown from SQ42, even though this is the 3rd time it was supposed to be released - thats fishy

Full details in upcoming solutions like the time they stated they switched engine year after it was done? Or the time they are dead silent about why nothing from SQ42 was shown?

I was trying to say that they dont even have the basics for a crude game - aka the least viable product or hows it called - all they have are few separated game modules.
This means that the REAL problems are only about to come from connecting all the parts together..and after that the finalizing of the product eats almost half of the development time

So considering the scale of the game I seriously doubt it will release sooner than 2022

And Im really curious how many backers will be THAT patient

Thats what I meant they're completely over their heads

 Actually, they did at one point state that SQ42 was being placed on hold and they gave reasons for that. I mean it's not what I'd want to hear since SQ42 is really all I care about, but they did actually give a reason. 

Also, I'm not sure where you get that the REAL problems are only about to come from connecting the parts. Actually, that's wildly inaccurate. It's also inaccurate that the finalizing of the product eats almost half of your development time. They've already stated that they are using iterative development, so the idea that it takes half your time to go back over is a fallacy. You're talking much more waterfall where loopbacks come at a significant cost. In that same vein, the integration of modules in an iterative environment would/should be testing on an ongoing basis because the earlier you catch these, the quicker and cheaper the problem is to fix. 

On the grand scheme of things, testing is a small chunk of the process. In an Agile environment, the idea is that testing and development are happening in parallel, so the idea that finalizing something would take half your schedule is completely uninformed. At the end of each iteration, the idea is that you have a product that is shippable, ideally. Regardless of how loose you are with that definition, there is continual progress towards a released product. Testing of the product itself SHOULD be limited if they are testing in each iteration. Worst case, testing is an iteration behind. 

As far as your estimate goes, I'll take it with a grain of salt since you clearly haven't shown any idea about the software development process, so I don't know why I'd trust that you could accurately estimate a week ahead, let alone 5 years out.

I am a software developer, former tester

Whatever,we'll see in 2022

Too tired to look for similar post by the likes of you being absolutely sure SQ42 would release mid 2015 and SC early 2017

So then I'm assuming that you're working in a waterfall environment. I mean you're certainly not working in an interative environment or you'd understand that these integrations are being tested per iteration. Also, these hooks are low-level, so they should have existed for a long time now and have been tested, at a low level, for a long time now. These modules are not operating independently of each other, remember, they are all running on top of the engine and utilizing a myriad of shared functionality sitting on top of that. Do they still need to interact with the independent modules? Yes. However, making those connections are not half the development effort. 

Don't bother looking up my previous posts, I'll tell you straight up that I'm sure I said at some point that I was excited to see if it would be released in 2016. However, I am also a realist and had genuine concerns. I've voiced those concerns quite publicly, just as I have called out people who are throwing out bullshit, just like I'd question your legitimacy as a software developer (for lack of insight/knowledge) and tester (for lack of objectivity). 

Turrican187

CrazKanuk said:
[...]

Also, I'm not sure where you get that the REAL problems are only about to come from connecting the parts. Actually, that's wildly inaccurate.
[...]

If you have a FPS game and want to implement vault, crouch, crawl, cover, climb
It is easy to Implement auto vault (tag your obstacle vaultable) or climb (tag it climbable) [with your character controller prepared for all this] but if you have auto-cover at a corner but climbable and connected with a vaultable obstacle this cases need to be catched else there could be funny results, so every mechanic can have an impact on other mechanics this makes the connecting of the parts complicated - this often happens to a scale that a developer is loosing control over his sourcecode (Ask the poor SAP programmers they all went mad)

CrazKanuk said:
[...]

 It's also inaccurate that the finalizing of the product eats almost half of your development time.
[...]

I guess he means the 90/10 rule

Arglebargle

DKLond said:

Arglebargle said:

MisterZebub said:

I see this the same as asking if a fiddly piece of furniture with many many little parts from IKEA still in the box exists. Yes it does it just isn't completely put together yet.

And if the guy who puts it together is incompetent, the finished product won't resemble the description of it on the box.  

Better just hope the legs are all level.

Wow, you're still in all of these threads saying exclusively the same personal things about CR over and over and over.

Have you considered whether your obsession with this person that you've never met is healthy or not?

Met him once, in passing, at a party at Lord British's place.  My gaming group includes four people who worked with Roberts at Origin.  Two hate him, two merely dislike him.   Of the ten people I've talked to who worked with him, none have anything good to say about his personality, or his skills as a project manager.   The management incompetence and general poor handling of his teams at Origin tends to give me a pretty poor opinion of him.   Given the idolatry of some of Chris's fans, it's useful for the counterpoint to be mentioned, especially for the folks who might be considering sizeable investments in 'Schrodinger Ships'.  I don't expect to convince the true believers.

You can discount this if you want (internet and all), but the signs are still there, in the Star Citizen development history, of the same, sad errors as in the past.   The cranky, foolish response letter to the Escapist article;  the embarrassing 'I don't know and can't play my own game' video;  the excoriating analysis of his poor communication in the Jennison letter; his bragging on how the modular game development was going to lead to such incredible efficiency;  the continual 'Star Marine releases in a month!' commentary by him, showing his cluelessness one way or another;  releasing of the 'Excuse' video explaining why they missed showing anything about SQ42, replete with Roberts piling more pedestrian crap (Sandworms!  Sand People!) on his already exhausted demo team.  The continual feature creep.   And more, so much more....   You have to work hard to discount all the signs.  And some people work real hard at it.  

I have never thought that the game won't release, just that it will never release as described.  It pretty much can't, as too many things have already been cut or filed in the round drawer excuses of 'We'll get to that later.'   The signs of the incredible inefficiency of development, the mismanagement of resources, they are all there.   With enough money, something will get made.  Even if it is released by another company after a buyout, ala Freelancer.   Even the Evil One early on in his screeds said something to the effect of 'This game can't get made for less than $150 million!!'   Financing is pretty close to that now.   But the inefficiencies and obvious missteps that wasted millions will eventually all come out.

IsilithTehroth

I'll play when they game is fun and not a resemblance of a college/high school student's handiwork.

TheScavenger

IsilithTehroth said:

I'll play when they game is fun and not a resemblance of a college/high school student's handiwork.

Wow! This game is being made by a high school student? Possibly a college student?

They have a lot going for them! Never seen a college/high school student manage such a huge project before, with as much cash and all that managing required. Even if the game doesn't end up what its hyped to be, that is the best manager I've ever heard of if they are only in high school or college. Even if the game fails then in the end, they can do sure a lot for their future! Man, a high school/college student doing this? That is very impressive.

MaxBacon

TheScavenger said:

Wow! This game is being made by a high school student? Possibly a college student?

Haven't you heard? CIG is like super incompetent and bad at developing games.

Nothing any development team couldn't easily do, that's why it wasn't done before at this level of tech & sim... right?.... right?!

Arglebargle

TheScavenger said:

IsilithTehroth said:

I'll play when they game is fun and not a resemblance of a college/high school student's handiwork.

Wow! This game is being made by a high school student? Possibly a college student?

They have a lot going for them! Never seen a college/high school student manage such a huge project before, with as much cash and all that managing required. Even if the game doesn't end up what its hyped to be, that is the best manager I've ever heard of if they are only in high school or college. Even if the game fails then in the end, they can do sure a lot for their future! Man, a high school/college student doing this? That is very impressive.

You do understand what the word 'resemblance' means?  In context?  

(I know you do, but the temptation for hyperbole was probably just too much for you, right?)

Distopia

Arglebargle said:

You do understand what the word 'resemblance' means?  In context?  

(I know you do, but the temptation for hyperbole was probably just too much for you, right?)

LMAO calling what we've seen so far, the work of a high schooler, isn't in itself hyperbole at best?

Arglebargle

Distopia said:

Arglebargle said:

TheScavenger said:

IsilithTehroth said:

I'll play when they game is fun and not a resemblance of a college/high school student's handiwork.

Wow! This game is being made by a high school student? Possibly a college student?

They have a lot going for them! Never seen a college/high school student manage such a huge project before, with as much cash and all that managing required. Even if the game doesn't end up what its hyped to be, that is the best manager I've ever heard of if they are only in high school or college. Even if the game fails then in the end, they can do sure a lot for their future! Man, a high school/college student doing this? That is very impressive.

You do understand what the word 'resemblance' means?  In context?  

(I know you do, but the temptation for hyperbole was probably just too much for you, right?)

LMAO calling what we've seen so far, the work of a high schooler, isn't in itself hyperbole at best?

Granted. 

Though I am in the 'Wasteful and Mismanaged' camp myself.   Cinematics are going to be the strong point of the game, because that's Roberts' highest value.   If that's what you like about gaming, be prepared to be wowed. 

PottedPlant22

CrazKanuk said:

The one thing that is known for sure is just because you own a company doesn't mean you benefit more than anyone else (Curt Schilling).

That's a horrible example.  He tried screwing over a state.  Considering they can take your butt to criminal court, pretty dumb move.  Plenty of owners make out big and screw over the 'investors.'  In fact it happens all the time.  Everything else you said is just biased wishful thinking.  GL with that.  Call me when they have actual game design you can play that isn't a glorified demo.  Repopulation actually had that and they didn't get 100 million to make their game.  And most of their employees were UNPAID volunteers - basically all of them actually.

PottedPlant22

TheScavenger said:

IsilithTehroth said:

I'll play when they game is fun and not a resemblance of a college/high school student's handiwork.

Wow! This game is being made by a high school student? Possibly a college student?

They have a lot going for them! Never seen a college/high school student manage such a huge project before, with as much cash and all that managing required. Even if the game doesn't end up what its hyped to be, that is the best manager I've ever heard of if they are only in high school or college. Even if the game fails then in the end, they can do sure a lot for their future! Man, a high school/college student doing this? That is very impressive.

What part hasn't been done before?  Space exploration?  Flight Sim?  FPS?  What's ground breaking that's actually in the game and not high concept again?

MaxBacon

PottedPlant22 said:

What part hasn't been done before?  Space exploration?  Flight Sim?  FPS?  What's ground breaking that's actually in the game and not high concept again?

All of those working together as it is now, at the detail and level of tech currently available.
That is groundbreaking, especially on MMO dev- standards.

Nitpicking X or Y feature to say it has been done before, you can easily do that with any game, but what you play is the game experience, not a single feature.

knightfall98

it exist the same way a unicorn dose, you hear about it, sounds like a myth and even see pics of it but until I see one gallop in front of me or in this case launch, I will be always a skeptic, also like star citizen many people have been devoured by its allure as they didnt know the true nature of a unicorn is to devour poor unwitting souls they stray too close.

botrytis

MaxBacon said:

PottedPlant22 said:

What part hasn't been done before?  Space exploration?  Flight Sim?  FPS?  What's ground breaking that's actually in the game and not high concept again?

All of those working together as it is now, at the detail and level of tech currently available.
That is groundbreaking, especially on MMO dev- standards.

Nitpicking X or Y feature to say it has been done before, you can easily do that with any game, but what you play is the game experience, not a single feature.

LOL groundbreaking? ROFL - keep drinking the SC koolaid. By the time SC comes out it will be so far behind the curve that it will be known as crap.

This is the same type of hype SW:TOR and TSW got. Just remember that....

MaxBacon

botrytis said:

LOL groundbreaking? ROFL - keep drinking the SC koolaid. By the time SC comes out it will be so far behind the curve that it will be known as crap.

Sure is! There's nothing on the MMO genre that provides the gameplay experience SC does with what it already combined on the alpha, bugs and performance aside. Unless I'm missing some obvious game, the only game that has planned some of these features on the MMO sphere is E: D.

Also people have been saying that since 2012; and since 2012 this game has had quite the jumps both on the graphically and on the technological level; seen on things like their work to make a proper DX12 / Vulkan implementation.

Before SC to be far behind and known as crap, I think the MMO standards need to catch up first, and that my friend is as we see, a slow-ass process.

CrazKanuk

Turrican187 said:

CrazKanuk said:
[...]

Also, I'm not sure where you get that the REAL problems are only about to come from connecting the parts. Actually, that's wildly inaccurate.
[...]

If you have a FPS game and want to implement vault, crouch, crawl, cover, climb
It is easy to Implement auto vault (tag your obstacle vaultable) or climb (tag it climbable) [with your character controller prepared for all this] but if you have auto-cover at a corner but climbable and connected with a vaultable obstacle this cases need to be catched else there could be funny results, so every mechanic can have an impact on other mechanics this makes the connecting of the parts complicated - this often happens to a scale that a developer is loosing control over his sourcecode (Ask the poor SAP programmers they all went mad)

CrazKanuk said:
[...]

 It's also inaccurate that the finalizing of the product eats almost half of your development time.
[...]

I guess he means the 90/10 rule

I totally agree with your first bit. Edge cases are problematic, but they should be just that, exceptional. The integration of modules should present some difficult cases, but if your edge cases are more than just edge cases and they weren't already caught previously then I'd say you have problems in your test process. 

Lol, yeah, exactly. Like certainly they've got things like animations nailed down, right?

gervaise1

botrytis said:

MaxBacon said:

PottedPlant22 said:

What part hasn't been done before?  Space exploration?  Flight Sim?  FPS?  What's ground breaking that's actually in the game and not high concept again?

All of those working together as it is now, at the detail and level of tech currently available.
That is groundbreaking, especially on MMO dev- standards.

Nitpicking X or Y feature to say it has been done before, you can easily do that with any game, but what you play is the game experience, not a single feature.

LOL groundbreaking? ROFL - keep drinking the SC koolaid. By the time SC comes out it will be so far behind the curve that it will be known as crap.

This is the same type of hype SW:TOR and TSW got. Just remember that....

TSW hyped? It would have liked some that's for sure.

SW:TOR hyped? Absolutely. And as far as story went it delivered (still does) and people played the hell out of it (as the saying goes) putting in 11 hours or more a day. (It launched over Christmas). The problem was not the game it was the business model; people were not prepared to pay a subscription for continued access. Same problem we have seen in other games. As far as "SW experience" and "story" went though it delivered on its hype.

So were is SC on the hype level? More than TSW and less than SW I think it fair to say.

Will it do better than TSW? If pledges are considered akin to "pre-purchases" it already has done.

Will it do better than SWTOR on "story stuff"? We don't know.

Will it do better "financially"? Simplistically yes. Different business model; different funding model. Is that saying anything? Actually yes. This is the part at which the funding model really comes into its own.

So whilst I don't expect it to do as well as the last game that had a very long open "beta" there is cause for optimism. Well except for those who have spend the last x years dishing it.

Being sceptical of any game in development - perfectly reasonable. Being realistic also helps.

Octagon7711

It's hard to compare games that are in alpha against those that are out.  SC is what, still 70% in planning phase?  While people can look at games that are out in hindsight.  

rodarin

Donald Trump spent less money than CiG has allegedly raised and won an election against someone who spent almost 2 billion.

Money doesnt matter and when THAT is the one thing this project uses as its greatest reason as to why it 'cant' fail remember that first sentence....

kikoodutroa8

I'm not a programmer, and maybe that's why I find this video impressive:



It's also rare that devs show what's going on behind the scene so kudos for that.

Shinami

If its takes 5 years and 140 million to build a game, then I believe the programming team is untalented and undedicated. I remember the original counterstrike started as a Half Life Mod created by two people in their spare time...

Yeah I know...
Different Genres, Different Games...
Seems that these people are getting away with 140 million dollars in a five year period to live off that money and be lazy about everything else...

Nothing sells faster than false hope and media manipulation. 

I was a fan of Wing Commander, but I won't be playing this game... Ever... Unless of Course it was to hijack the game, and conjure up super-versions of Kilrathi Warships with their Rippler Missiles to annihilate these ships that look like Terran Confederation Carriers...

PottedPlant22

MaxBacon said:

Sure is! There's nothing on the MMO genre that provides the gameplay experience SC does

Please be specific.  Not what is planned, but what is providing right now.  Cause Pathfinder Online had some pretty great 'plans.'  It was a complete failure due to lack of funds and talent.  What's SC excuse?

And by the way - Elite Dangerous is eating SC's launch right now, so there is competition.  Heck if we're just talking about Space MMOs, EVE is in the mix as well.  That's specifically MMOs that are today providing a similar experience in what SC is saying they will provide... some day.