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Does Star Citizen REALLY exist?
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we're all just observers either being for or against it we have no access to evidence or insight just our perception of what is the truth
Strictly speaking, no one in the world has (objective) proof of anything - because objective truth is but a theory that has yet to be conclusively established.
But we have lots and lots of evidence.
Well, I do - and I guess you don't.
I'm using this evidence to support my case - and that's what happens when people exchange opinions. Well, that's what's supposed to happen if anything is to come of it.
By being an observer without evidence - you're not contributing anything of value. Beyond that, you also elect to pass judgment on that of which you have limited understanding.
As such, you're not being very impressive.
And in an intelligent discussion people try to widen their horizon not shouting opposing ideas at each other i think you're confusing something here...
I contributed probably as much as anyone else here which is 0... i'm not trying to impress anyone or change anyones mind or try to shout the loudest because we all know the loudest is the most right...
I just gave a commentary about the current discussion witjout trying to offend anyone personally
I'm sorry that you feel personally attacked
Keep on feeling superior
Ok, so there is no evidence that they are reaping any rewards. There are plenty of people who throw out unsubstantiated claims that would be shot down in a split second if it was a similarly poorly-supported argument from the other side of the fence.
Secondly, there are, literally, hundreds of games on Steam that originated from crowdfunding. Go look them up and educate yourself. Then see how much they raised on KS. Tell me how they are living the life of luxury (ie Chivalry raised a whopping $50k!). Even larger projects, like Torment ($4 million) aren't living it up. It took 4 years to make!!
Third, I don't think you know what micromanaging is. I do get your point, though, and you're still clueless. In the type of environment you're talking about, the current state of SC would never have happened. People might be distributed, but it should be clear to anyone reasonable that there MUST be some communication. Granted, the distributed nature of the company does inherently create some "silos", which may or may not have created issues. However, the closer the game comes to release, the less this argument makes sense. Like as of today this argument makes little sense. The biggest risk in this type of setup is the base layers of framework, engine work, etc. Could this account for some of the delays? Yes, most definitely. If you'd like to pull my post history, I've said since the beginning that being distributed is a problem. However, once we are working off a common code base, you could put us in different universes entirely and we could still be successful. Think of the .Net framework or DirectX or any sort of common library that is leveraged. Once you have that base layer, you can build whatever you want on top of it because you're all speaking the same language. Oh! And that's believing that you have zero communication with each other, which is not likely the case here. In addition to those base layers you would also have regular communication. They've already said that they are using Agile, which actually requires that you meet with your group and inform everyone what you're working on.
Fourth, their staffing hasn't been consistent since the initial development. Someone can probably provide you with a list of their employment levels over time, and then you could align that with the numbers I gave previously for their annual funding amounts. Then you could quite easily create a curve estimating what their current funding level is. My guess? They probably have a year work of income left. However, they also appear to be JUST starting to tip over, so this next year they will likely see $34 million in funding before seeing a fall-off in-line with their climb, unless the market disappears and their is a sharper drop-off. Either way, I think there is at least 3 more years of solid funding. That's based on actual research and numbers collected from the CIG maintained spreadsheet found online, the only speculation is their future funding, which I projected using typical sales curves which are accepted by most all academic text books.
Sooooooooooo, yeah. I can appreciate your speculation, but logic tells us that there are, probably, many more games out there that people should be putting their hopes into than SC. SC is going to be just fine.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
EVERYTHING I write is based on what they have said or what they have shown. My only 'opinion' is I think theyre lying about the amount of money they have raised. Because its self governed and it doesnt correlate to what we have seen implemented.
But the big news and the one every fanbois brings up time and time again is how much money they have raised and keep raising. So they think because of that the game will (eventually) get made in some way shape or form. Regardless of quality or actual fund put DIRECTLY into the game and not other things associated with it.
The big budget games that people throw around... Most of the budget for those games went to advertising and voice acting. I dont think SC spend a dime on advertising, they dont have to this place gives the operatives of CiG free reign. They did have some 'big' names in terms of voice actors but no one knows just how much they were paid. But I am sure there are 'industry norms' that people cant compare them to.
So the actual DEVELOPMENTAL costs of most games isnt all that great. proofed out by games that have been made pretty recently that arent bad and surely were made on budgets far far far less than SC has (allegedly) raised. Thats not opinion thats fact.
Games like Ark, Life is Feudal (not released in MMO form yet but close and has had a survival version for over a year), Ascent, Naval Action (very rough but in a vacuum about as 'polished' as SC is), Empyrion, or pick an early access game on Steam. Many of them fully playable and have an actual MMO skeleton/framework. WAY further along in terms of actually delivering a game that fits the description of a game than SC.
So is it a 'more money more problems' thing? Too many people? Too many studios? What is it? Why cant these guys do with much more money (allegedly) and far more people (factually) than these tiny indie games who are churning out updates and progression in a semi steady manner?
I'm not sure if it's purely based on your lack of objectivity or that you're fucking insane, but if you're claiming to write solely based on evidence then you're out to lunch, friend.
You aren't wrong that SC has devoured money. It COULD be burning money faster than any other game, ever. With each passing year there are fewer games which actually had a development budget more than SC. That's probably not something to be proud of. That being said, I don't think that these so-called fanbois claim the budget of games, inclusive (with advertising) any more than what haters do. However, Wikipedia does a great job of breaking this out for us. So you can easily see that SC is, now, the second most expensive game to develop in history. Maybe CR should hop on the phone with the Guinness Book of Records again, lol.
You're also wrong about actual development costs. It's simple math and some knowledge about labor burden. 300 employees is fucking costly! Also, you'd probably choke on your lunch if you knew how much typical labor burden accounts for. I can't see your labor burden being much less than 50% and I've seen it go as high as 100%. So you figure out 300 salaries So depending on what that cost is, 300 salaries with a 50% labor burden would mean an average salary of $80k annually, or a 100% labor burden would put you at an average salary of $60k annually. Software developers in the regions make, on average, more than $80k annually. So I'd think the labor burden is likely less than 100% but more than 50%, or maybe right around 50% once you factor in averaging out admin staff, etc. Either way, that basically calculates your cost of operations. So they might have some cash tucked away to maintain operations, but it's certainly not enough to get them past a year or more.
Ok, so I can literally (yes literally) set up an MMO on my home network, from scratch, in less than 1 day. So does that mean that I'm better off than SC? No. Not at all. What it does mean is that I have tools available to me which make my life easier. Granted, it's on CIG that they decided not to use tools which were already available, but that's a design decision, like it or not. Secondly, please, please put screenshots of each game beside each other. Let a child pick which they think looks best. From a perspective of production values, SC is easily one of the most beautiful games you'll see today. That level of fidelity also costs money, and it's a non-trivial amount. Also, if we are to believe previous claims, the art took 3 times as long as on other games due to the level of micro-managing going on by CR prior to Erin Roberts taking over that aspect.
Yes, yes, and yes to all your questions. Ok, so first of all, distributed studios DOES create problems unless you're REALLY good at managing it. There are consultants who get paid crazy money just to manage outsourcing. Moreover, though, more people only provide diminishing returns when it comes to work. Smaller teams tend to perform better as far as output is concerned. However, if you want to get things done more quickly, you need to bring more people on, which actually increases the complexity of managing those people, plus you increase the likelihood of communication issues, etc. In the end, if you had 100 workers completing 100 units of work per day, that does NOT mean that 300 workers will complete 300 units of work per day. In fact, I'd be surprised if they were to complete 200 units of work. Either way, studies show that the work completed by the individual worker decreases as the number of employees increase. So it's really about finding where you'd get the greatest value. Unless it absolutely has to be out the door, in which case you throw people at it (which could cause more problems than it solves too).
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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The FACTS are there are games out there you can play right now. Many made in less time and with less money than SC has had access to.
There are even MULTIPLE space games with a lot of things SC has claimed they will have. The semantics on whether some of them are MMO or not can be debated but the way the SC 'universe' will work if it ever gets made people can debate SC as an MMO as well.
You know what would end this loop? Them actually putting out stuff they have shown people for years. 3.0 is the benchmark. Everyone has said that although now the fans are backtracking a little fearing (as they should) that it wont be nearly as expansive as they thought or was proclaimed.
But I am sure something will come along before then that will take the focus off that and onto something else. Its the status quo with this project.
People should learn to expect nothing with this game except a ship sale or promotion after every presentation.
This is what I mean. You claim that SC is the most expensive game to make. I support that claim and you come back and tell me that there are many games that take less time and money to make. This is what I mean, you have a simple lack of understanding of the simplest concepts, like when someone is agreeing with you. How can anyone expect you to understand something as complex as developing a video game, or how stoplights work?
Instead, you retreat to the status quo of the "ship sale" argument. Other than that, I'm pretty sure that everything above, I covered and was mostly in agreement with you, with the exception that all crowdfunding is a scam and that they should be able to produce something on a similar timeline as other projects (like life is feudal) because they are in the same genre. It would be nice if that's the way it worked, but it isn't. That being said, Life is Feudal has been in works since 2010, just FYI, so it's sort of self-defeating to use them as an example of an upstanding project with a quick development cycle, considering they are 7 years in and they are in beta..... Just sayin.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
If you can't handle the same thing being said every day for years, then this forum is just not the place for you.
What is your point again? Since I clearly did not say what you implied.
I do have to right to point out how this discussion is pointless. Do I not? Don't worry, I don't actually want you to answer that question, as I already know the answer. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you can't handle someone posting something on a forum, maybe it's not the place for you.
As I said. Ridiculous people are ridiculous. You don't even know what your own argument is. Hilarious.
I just discuss all there is to discuss around here, and that is most of it. Are these discussions ridiculous? Sure. Is there any better? Nope.
The game is a scam - CR employs 300 people for several years and creates a playable build of the game, all just to scam. How does that even make sense? If you want to see an actual scam, go check out Greed Monger and Jason Appleton.
CR has mismanaged funds and staff - This is obvious to anyone without fan-glasses on. Offices in four countries, space doors, subcontractors coming and going each year, working on things that are later abandoned and CR missing every single date he has ever given. He has taken so much crap for missing dates that he does not even give them anymore, he calls them "artificial" and says they are bull$hit.
CR is a Liar - This one is very subjective. All of 2015 he showed video after video promoting Star Marine and used it to boost sales. Then at the end of 2015 he starts the no refund policy and tells us "Star Marine is in there" because we can shoot a gun. The original TOS say backers are entitled to a refund but then years later changes it to say they dont have to deliver a game and backers are no longer entitled to a refund no matter what. In 2013 CR stated that the stretch goals would not delay the games release but it obviously did. Is he a liar? I think he actually believed what he said at those times but he does have issues with continuing to promise more and more while delivering very little. CR should have never been the front PR guy for this game.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Agreed on point 1.
Agreed-ish on point 2. Structurally, it makes sense. You take advantage of tax credits, etc. in different areas and leverage more diverse talent pools. Oh! And you hire a ton of people who are subject matter experts in the engine you're building off of. In theory this is all great stuff. Logistically...... if I had a nickel every time that the solution offered by upper management was to "outsource to reduce costs", I'd probably be able to buy all the SC ships out there. So he isn't alone in believing he can manage that. Practically, it's more difficult than that.
He may have stretched the truth in the beginning, but I don't know that it was a lie. Overly optimistic? For sure! Also, we can't forget that if we are to believe what some previous employees may or may not have said, art assets were taking like 3 times what they should to create because of his micro-managing. Extrapolate that to all assets and I think it's not a stretch to see were he may have believed he could actually do it. On a positive note, thank GOD! He gave up the day-to-day management. Honestly, it may have saved the project. Then again, I could be projecting and they would have been at this point anyway. However, it certainly appears, from the outside, that there was a lot of progress in the past 12 months compared to previous years.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Outsourcing became then the viable option for a company still building up their first office at the time.
Yeah, I know that, I was only talking about the thought that multiple offices isn't as trivial as most think. I see how I managed to mix up that wording though.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Obviously it didn't went well for them as they admitted it was a mistake, as Erin Roberts said on the Kotaku interviews of months ago; on the same one also admitted that they failed at communication in-between the multiple offices that caused setbacks on the production.
You hire an architect say and spend a year sorting out the plans.
Then lets say you need another 6 months whilst the plans are reviewed by regulatory bodies.
Then you hit the go button and the builders and all the contractors come in for 6 months say.
Lets say you are spending $50k a month during the build phase. And at this point in time you let friends know that you are spending $50k a month.
Exam question: will you need a) $300k b) c. $330k c) c. $1.2M
Calculators are allowed.