"Never" for ZoS means "until a later time when we change our mind".
I can definitely agree with that
$40 is peanuts. The $ is not the issue.
Not upgrade purchasable with crowns and calling one zone an expansion (2 or 3 zones might warrant the label) doesn't really jive with their Sub + DLC with ESO+ getting the DLC included with their previous (and by that I mean prior to today) business model.
See here's the problem.
People are twisting things around to fit their narrative.
First of all, people saying "It's just DLC because only one zone" is arbitrary. They've said it's a massive new area - all of Vvardenfell which, from my memory, is freaking huge.
You're just performing logical gymnastics.
"It's not an expansion unless it has 2 or 3 zones, but Vvardenfell is just one new zone. Therefor it's not an Expansion, and just a DLC. And DLC has always been obtainable with in-game crowns. Therefor they're breaking from their own system..."
Also the number of zones doesn't define anything. By your logic, if they added Vvardenfell, but split it up into 2 or 3 smaller zones, it would then qualify as an expansion because it meets your criteria of "2 or 3 zones". Would be the same amount of landmass, but it would now be multiple arbitrary zones, instead of one large, contiguous one.
So, no... Zenimax isn't breaking with their usual process. You're just playing semantic games and creating arbitrary definitions to meet a pre-determined narrative, because you would rather spend crowns instead of cash, and are upset that you can't.
You also are ignoring that there's a lot of other content designed specifically for that area - instances, dungeons, the new PvP areas, and so on.... Those count as new areas as well.
I've read such negativity about plunking down 40 bones, I'm paying a sub, i've no problem with this. Now I've only recently returned to ESO after checking out update 12 and saying "this game got good", I've not been paying a sub for 3 years either so i can somewhat understand long term sub'ers grips. Then on the other hand they could have made a scrimpy dlc version of Vvardenfell and not put the man power behind such a huge addition because people might get upset. lol Hmmm scrimpy lame version of Vvardenfell for free with sub or full blown expac for 40 bones? They made the right choice!
My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022
Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)
"Never" for ZoS means "until a later time when we change our mind".
I can definitely agree with that
$40 is peanuts. The $ is not the issue.
Not upgrade purchasable with crowns and calling one zone an expansion (2 or 3 zones might warrant the label) doesn't really jive with their Sub + DLC with ESO+ getting the DLC included with their previous (and by that I mean prior to today) business model.
See here's the problem.
People are twisting things around to fit their narrative.
First of all, people saying "It's just DLC because only one zone" is arbitrary. They've said it's a massive new area - all of Vvardenfell which, from my memory, is freaking huge.
You're just performing logical gymnastics.
"It's not an expansion unless it has 2 or 3 zones, but Vvardenfell is just one new zone. Therefor it's not an Expansion, and just a DLC. And DLC has always been obtainable with in-game crowns. Therefor they're breaking from their own system..."
Also the number of zones doesn't define anything. By your logic, if they added Vvardenfell, but split it up into 2 or 3 smaller zones, it would then qualify as an expansion because it meets your criteria of "2 or 3 zones". Would be the same amount of landmass, but it would now be multiple arbitrary zones, instead of one large, contiguous one.
So, no... Zenimax isn't breaking with their usual process. You're just playing semantic games and creating arbitrary definitions to meet a pre-determined narrative, because you would rather spend crowns instead of cash, and are upset that you can't.
You also are ignoring that there's a lot of other content designed specifically for that area - instances, dungeons, the new PvP areas, and so on.... Those count as new areas as well.
@QuarterStack you are right that @Iselin is being inconsistent when suggesting that if it had been 2 or 3 zones it would have been OK.
However you are wrong in suggesting that Zenimax "isn't breaking with their usual process".
For the "issue" is this. Prior to ESO's launch Matt Frior spent a lot of time justifying the decision to charge a subscription. And the "argument" he used was that with a sub content would never - never - be locked behind a paywall.
Now when this was being "discussed" on mmorpg.com one of the questions I "threw out there" was whether those who were "supporting" MF's position was whether they believed there would never be an expansion. I was "sceptical" shall we say - WoW has subs and charges for expansions etc. so I "expected" "expansions". Or - as @Torval said - "Never" for ZoS means "until a later time when we change our mind".
MF however made a big deal about it though and when the "mandatory" sub was dropped and the "optional" sub was introduced nothing was done to dispel this impression.
So - OK - ZoS have opted to make this an "expansion" and not part of the "rented content" they have chosen to "charge" for the "expansion". Not only charge for Morrowind though but to exclude it from the "crown" store. Meaning subscribers cannot use any crowns they have accrued.
To be clear I have no problem with ZoS charging. My mantra remains: "No payment no content; no content no payment". And I am sure that some will have decided to "pay a sub" in order to get "future content". They could well feel that the goal posts have changed.
Maybe ZoS are - as suggested - simply being "greedy" but I have a different view: that ZoS are facing up to why subscriptions are - potentially - bad for developers. To repeat: bad for developers.
For sure "(good) subscribers" can form a very loyal customer base generating a regular income. Subscriptions however also allow for "bad subscribers" by allowing people to "freeload". To get the 30 hours of new content and maybe a DLC or two for a single $15 1 month sub. And maybe when a few more DLC packs have been released sub again. Maybe.
I would be happier if they opted for one model or the other. I can understand why they want to have their cake and eat it. This could cost them subscribers though imo.
@QuarterStack you are right that @Iselin is being inconsistent when suggesting that if it had been 2 or 3 zones it would have been OK.
There is nothing inconsistent about my statement. It is simply based on a lot of experience playing the quest story lines in the zones that already exist in the game and taking their Morrowind announcement statements at face value. They say Vvardenfell will have 30 hours of story content.
Just how many hours of story content do you think that the current zones have? My experience tells me that each original zone has something in the neighborhood of 20-30 hours.
Inconsistent would be taking the announcement that this chapter will have 30 hours and declaring that to be "huge." As far as story content goes they are adding one zone. No more than Craglorn or Orsinium or Reaper's March for that matter.
And no, splitting the 30 hours into 3 10 hour zones is not what I was talking about when I said an ESO expansion would be more credible as a real thing rather than a re-branding of DLC if it had 60 or 90 hours of content... which is what 2 or 3 zones in the game currently provide.
At any rate... we shall see just how "huge" it is in June won't we?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
@QuarterStack you are right that @Iselin is being inconsistent when suggesting that if it had been 2 or 3 zones it would have been OK.
There is nothing inconsistent about my statement. <snip>
@Iselin I am simply "recognising" that - in the limit - @Quarterstack 's point is valid/ Whether it is one or three zones - or 30 or 90 hours - is a very "arbitrary" judgement as to whether something is included or excluded from the optional sub.
Edit: And re-reading your point yes you were simply saying if this then that so - as you say you were not inconsistent. I misread your post. Sorry. I think its the "might warrant the label bit though that gives the impression.
However it is a side issue. A derailment of your key point. Which I totally agree with. Namely:
"Not upgrade purchasable with crowns and calling one zone an expansion (2 or 3 zones might warrant the label) doesn't really jive with their Sub + DLC with ESO+ getting the DLC included with their previous (and by that I mean prior to today) business model."
@QuarterStack you are right that @Iselin is being inconsistent when suggesting that if it had been 2 or 3 zones it would have been OK.
There is nothing inconsistent about my statement. <snip>
@Iselin I am simply "recognising" that - in the limit - @Quarterstack 's point is valid/ Whether it is one or three zones - or 30 or 90 hours - is a very "arbitrary" judgement as to whether something is included or excluded from the optional sub.
It is a side issue however. A derailment of your point. Which I totally agree with. Namely:
"Not upgrade purchasable with crowns and calling one zone an expansion (2 or 3 zones might warrant the label) doesn't really jive with their Sub + DLC with ESO+ getting the DLC included with their previous (and by that I mean prior to today) business model."
Just as an aside.... did you notice that today they posted an official thread asking for ideas what else to add to ESO+?
"We're currently exploring new ways to add even more benefits to the ESO Plus membership in addition to what we currently offer, and would love to hear any ideas you have in this thread. We look forward to hearing what you suggest, and thank you for your feedback and continued support!"
My suggestion was 1% discount for the cost of ESO+ per month already subscribed capped at 25%... fat chance though
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The irony is that the thieves guild and implementation of theft and pick pocketing and stealing added more actual hours of play time (repetitive or not) than this expan...errrr 'chapter' will offer.
This is another ZoS cash grab feeding off the rabid nature people view Miirrowind in the pantheon of ES mythology.
I think ZoS figured they had built enough good will with having One Tamriel come in to rave positive reception, and most recently them announcing housing coming in (for free) and before that is even released they announce this.
Also ironic they have the pre order up well before the housing is officially released. Because not only has housing seen a lot of negative comments but the other changes to the game and mechanics and other things. This next update/DLC is going to be recieved in a seriously negative way. There is always that hope that the PST isnt the final release but it always is.
So the timing of all this is clearly aimed to get people to pre order before they see how screwed up the game will be after this next update. Announcing the most anticipated addition to ANY MMO that doesnt have it...housing, and before its even released they announce the biggest and most popular region of their whole world.
Just as an aside.... did you notice that today they posted an official thread asking for ideas what else to add to ESO+?
"We're currently exploring new ways to add even more benefits to the ESO Plus membership in addition to what we currently offer, and would love to hear any ideas you have in this thread. We look forward to hearing what you suggest, and thank you for your feedback and continued support!"
My suggestion was 1% discount for the cost of ESO+ per month already subscribed capped at 25%... fat chance though
No @Iselin I have spent most of the week in a spa complex; very restful. Will have to have a look.
I think your 1% per month idea is to timid though! Also to complex - Finance departments take "time" to implement "payroll changes" - and your suggestion would a continuous one. A simpler idea perhaps would be: crafting bag "free" after 6 (3?) months sub ... even if you no longer sub. Doubt that would be introduced though unless they decide to sell said bag in the cash shop.
A simple addition to ESO+ would be to add chapters to Plus after some arbitrary amount of time. So when you're subbed you have access to chapters too. When you drop the sub you can still buy them but only for money. As time goes by they will bundle them like the Gold package. DLC would still be Crowns. Chapters money.
I made a fairly simple suggestion on the official forums. If you sub for a year continuously you get the chapter for free, if you sub for 6 months you get it half off, 3 months 25% off and if you sub for any single month you get 10% off.
Without some change to the sub 'perks' theyre not even remotely worth it right now Crafting bag or not.
But despite the obvious math more than half the people still think subbing is the better option.
But theyre also probably the type to riot and burn things down in a town where some speaker they disagree with is on Friday night then go out and march in a 'freedom of speech' rally on Sunday.
It's really going to come down to how this first chapter is, will it feel like $40. If it comes out and it's not much more than a dlc... then biatch all you want at that time. If it comes out and it feels like it's totally worth $40 or more then there ain't much left to say other than, can't wait for what next year's chapter brings.
My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022
Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)
A simple addition to ESO+ would be to add chapters to Plus after some arbitrary amount of time. So when you're subbed you have access to chapters too. When you drop the sub you can still buy them but only for money. As time goes by they will bundle them like the Gold package. DLC would still be Crowns. Chapters money.
My problem is that you buy crowns with money so you should be able to use them as money towards anything ESO.
Zenimax has lost my trust as far as subs go. Loyally subbed since launch, 6 months at a time. It would take a lot to win me back as far as a sub is concerned.
This new "Chapter" idea just means the included with a sub "DLC" will be a lot smaller and less meaningful as all the meat will be in a "Chapter".
I guess the good news is that the new business model saves me $100 a year.
The Vvardenfell landscape undergoes a constant cycle of death and
rebirth. Red Mountain's lava flows, eruptions and ash-fall cause
die-back in the deciduous woodlands and mushroom jungles, violent
upheaval alters the landscape and buries (or exposes!) the fallen ruins
of ancient civilizations. But the island expands as lava hardens, and
new plants and fungi emerge from the cooling ashes amongst the
formations of igneous rock.
Plant life flourishes in the rich soil fertilized by volcanic activity, and so Vvardenfell is home to a diverse set of biomes.
Fungi quickly absorb rich nutrients from the volcanic soil and grow to
enormous proportions to dominate the landscape. The large
Ink-Cap Mushrooms along the Bitter Coast thrive on the
detritus of decaying swamp life, while smaller fungus varieties cover
the rocks, trees and even some animals, such as the fungus-encrusted Shroom Beetle. Adorable!
Balmora, in the southwest and inland from the
Bitter Coast, is still forested, though ash from Red Mountain eruptions threatens to denude the slopes.
Though barren, The
Ashlands host a remarkable number of species. Ash Hoppers skitter through the dry ash dunes and giant Xylaria fungi extend their tendrils into the sky. Travelers beware! Hungry, reptilian Cliff Striders lurk atop the crags.
Fetcherflies build their hives where they can tap volcanic heat
to gestate their eggs. When they hatch, the queen taps a source of magma
to animate the nest, and it transforms into a walking Hive Golem that relocates the swarm to new surroundings.
Nix-Oxen roam the Grazelands in the northeastern part of
the island, and though generally considered to be mild-mannered, they
will not hesitate to defend their territory.
Two-legged
Vvardvarks romp through the grasses and feed on small bugs. Some people keep these delightful creatures as pets, despite the smell.
Ancestral Tombs dot the landscape, and powerful Daedra known as
Hunger, summoned as guardians, often lurk within.
The largest mushrooms in Morrowind appear in
Zafirbel Bay. This majestic species is cultivated by Telvanni
wizards and take a wizard's lifetime (a thousand years) to grow. These
fungus forests have a special ecology of their own—but that's a subject
for another book.
This is just a glimpse at some of the vastly diverse creatures and environments you'll encounter on your adventures in
ESO: Morrowind this June. Which are you most looking forward to seeing yourself? Share your thoughts with us on Twitter@TESOnline and the official forums!
Reddit threads are more upbeat than mmorpg.com. No offense to this forum but it's patrons have turned it into a bitch and moan zone. Most of us are having fun. We don't feel "fleeced." If you don't want to buy a pretty costume from the cash shop just do the content. Except for extravagant mounts most everything in the cash shop gets handed to me for free as I am questing or leveling up. I even get free coins to spend in cash shop. I have not spent one penny on this game outside of the original box purchase and my costumes and dyes are accumulating at an astounding rate. You people who bitch and moan about everything are not even playing the game or you would know that.
And if you think you are getting robbed with your subscription then unsub. No one is forcing you at gunpoint to pay a monthly. It is for a crafting bag which you don't even need because mules/alts.
Reddit threads are more upbeat than mmorpg.com. No offense to this forum but it's patrons have turned it into a bitch and moan zone. Most of us are having fun. We don't feel "fleeced." If you don't want to buy a pretty costume from the cash shop just do the content. Except for extravagant mounts most everything in the cash shop gets handed to me for free as I am questing or leveling up. I even get free coins to spend in cash shop. I have not spent one penny on this game outside of the original box purchase and <snip>
and - presumably - a subscription cost? You don't mention it but you say you get "free" crowns.
Three points:
1. The subscription model failed: ZoS dropped the sub. With no sub 8.5M sales. I won't go as far as suggesting that these "millions" of new buyers felt "fleeced" ...... but its tempting. And more evidence than your "we don't feel fleeced" comment. And there are a lot of posters on the ESO forums that do.
2. Not allowing people to access Morrowind would have been a change to what MF talked about even before the game launched. Not allowing people to use crowns to buy Morrowind is rubbing salt in the wound.
3. This is the site that has voted ESO mmo of the year. An accolade that ZoS have used.
This is not bitching and moaning. And a lot of posters on this site care - care enough to question ZoS's decision. In exactly the same way I questioned ZoS's decision to launch with a sub.
As I said above companies like "good" subscribers; using a sub model however allows "subscription freeloaders". To counter the latter companies reduce the value of a sub. And in ESO's case it is reverting to pretty much what it was when it launched: a $15 monthly advanced cash shop purchase.
Reddit threads are more upbeat than mmorpg.com. No offense to this forum but it's patrons have turned it into a bitch and moan zone. Most of us are having fun. We don't feel "fleeced." If you don't want to buy a pretty costume from the cash shop just do the content. Except for extravagant mounts most everything in the cash shop gets handed to me for free as I am questing or leveling up. I even get free coins to spend in cash shop. I have not spent one penny on this game outside of the original box purchase and my costumes and dyes are accumulating at an astounding rate. You people who bitch and moan about everything are not even playing the game or you would know that.
And if you think you are getting robbed with your subscription then unsub. No one is forcing you at gunpoint to pay a monthly. It is for a crafting bag which you don't even need because mules/alts.
Please don't believe you can convince me that you speak for everyone. You speak for yourself - and I speak for myself.
I'm talking about the Homestead upgrade and, specifically, the Morrowind expansion.
I'm not talking about costumes or mounts - as I don't care about those.
Personally, I don't find the argument that "if you're not happy, you can just not do it" is compelling. I mean, that would mean they could charge a million dollars for the expansion, and that wouldn't be unreasonable either - because we could just not buy it, right?
I'm sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.
They're in a good position with this game - and they're earning good profit. A lot of people aren't subscribers - so they're going to have to pay up no matter what.
They have the opportunity to show their consumers that they're fair - and that they want to make the subscription model a true consumer-friendly and worthwhile model.
It's really simple. The expansion should be purchasable with crowns - amounting to 40$ / monthly subscription cost * monthly crowns.
Probably around 5000 crowns.
It would motivate people to subscribe right now - and please existing subscribers.
That's so obviously worth a LOT more than the few sales they'd be missing out on.
Unfortunately, they went the Homestead way of fleecing their customers. It's not a good path to be on.
It's only fleecing people if it isn't worth the money. This idea that if a company doesn't do as certain folks wish they're evil bastages, is quite petulant really. Especially when the jury is still out on the actual product that is still months away. The reasoning here is what's simple, they want to profit off of the expansion, buy it or don't, that's up to you.
The Sub arguments in regard to this release are getting a bit tired as well. No one that is a previous subscriber is getting screwed by this, as they've delivered to those people all along. Be it crowns, content, crafting bags etc.. so that's a non sequitur.
It only effects the sub going forward which with such advanced notice, there's ample time to rethink it's value and act accordingly.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's really simple. The expansion should be purchasable with crowns - amounting to 40$ / monthly subscription cost * monthly crowns.
Probably around 5000 crowns.
It would motivate people to subscribe right now - and please existing subscribers.
That's so obviously worth a LOT more than the few sales they'd be missing out on.
Unfortunately, they went the Homestead way of fleecing their customers. It's not a good path to be on.
It's only fleecing people if it isn't worth the money. This idea that if a company doesn't do as certain folks wish they're evil bastages, is quite petulant really. Especially when the jury is still out on the actual product that is still months away. The reasoning here is what's simple, they want to profit off of the expansion, buy it or don't, that's up to you.
The Sub arguments in regard to this release are getting a bit tired as well. No one that is a previous subscriber is getting screwed by this, as they've delivered to those people all along. Be it crowns, content, crafting bags etc.. so that's a non sequitur.
It only effects the sub going forward which with such advanced notice, there's ample time to rethink it's value and act accordingly.
Please, if you can't argue your case without a strawman - at least make an effort when inventing it.
I don't believe I've said anything about morality or "evil" people here. I'm talking about ways you can profit and do business.
What I mean by fleecing, in this case, is making people pay for something they want - that you could easily give them ANOTHER way of buying without losing much, if anything. Here, I'm arguing that they will gain in the longer term by offering subscribers the opportunity to spend their crowns on the expansion.
I haven't said ANYTHING about being screwed.
I'm going to buy the expansion (if I'm still playing it in june) - because I think it has value for me.
That doesn't mean I think it's a good way to do business - or a good way to value your loyal subscribers.
It's only fleecing people if it isn't worth the money. This idea that if a company doesn't do as certain folks wish they're evil bastages, is quite petulant really.
So what do you call disparaging critics with reductive strawman quips characterizing what they're saying as calling the company "evil bastages" and posting crying baby memes?
ZOS had many options on how they added Vvanderfell, the Warden and PVP battlegrounds to the game including doing it using their existing DLC model. They chose one option. Some don't like that option and some don't care.
WTF is your problem with people who feel like criticizing their choice that you feel compelled to jump in with your insults despite being a very casual player who hardly ever plays the game by your own admission?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Please, if you can't argue your case without a strawman - at least make an effort when inventing it.
I don't believe I've said anything about morality or "evil" people here. I'm talking about ways you can profit and do business.
What I mean by fleecing, in this case, is making people pay for something they want - that you could easily give them ANOTHER way of buying without losing much, if anything. Here, I'm arguing that they will gain in the longer term by offering subscribers the opportunity to spend their crowns on the expansion.
I haven't said ANYTHING about being screwed.
I'm going to buy the expansion (if I'm still playing it in june) - because I think it has value for me.
That doesn't mean I think it's a good way to do business - or a good way to value your loyal subscribers.
I'm sorry, what else are you saying when you throw terms around like fleecing? Which the definition of is swindling folks.... which is performing a fraudulent act or scheme. Who does that besides immoral people? I used an exaggeration (evil bastages) to make a point toward that statement, that's not creating a strawman... If you're going to use words, understand what they imply...
My post wasn't just directed at you btw it was toward the outcry in general.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's only fleecing people if it isn't worth the money. This idea that if a company doesn't do as certain folks wish they're evil bastages, is quite petulant really.
So what do you call disparaging critics with reductive strawman quips characterizing what they're saying as calling the company "evil bastages" and posting crying baby memes?
ZOS had many options on how they added Vvanderfell, the Warden and PVP battlegrounds to the game including doing it using their existing DLC model. They chose one option. Some don't like that option and some don't care.
WTF is your problem with people who feel like criticizing their choice that you feel compelled to jump in with your insults despite being a very casual player who hardly ever plays the game by your own admission?
There's critique, then there's sensationalizing. You jump that shark when throwing around terms that have a specific meaning. Especially when you act as though that term has no sinister implications.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There's critique, then there's sensationalizing. You jump that shark when throwing around terms that have a specific meaning. Especially when you act as though that term has no sinister implications.
You mean terms like "evil bastages"?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
People are twisting things around to fit their narrative.
First of all, people saying "It's just DLC because only one zone" is arbitrary. They've said it's a massive new area - all of Vvardenfell which, from my memory, is freaking huge.
You're just performing logical gymnastics.
"It's not an expansion unless it has 2 or 3 zones, but Vvardenfell is just one new zone. Therefor it's not an Expansion, and just a DLC. And DLC has always been obtainable with in-game crowns. Therefor they're breaking from their own system..."
Also the number of zones doesn't define anything. By your logic, if they added Vvardenfell, but split it up into 2 or 3 smaller zones, it would then qualify as an expansion because it meets your criteria of "2 or 3 zones". Would be the same amount of landmass, but it would now be multiple arbitrary zones, instead of one large, contiguous one.
So, no... Zenimax isn't breaking with their usual process. You're just playing semantic games and creating arbitrary definitions to meet a pre-determined narrative, because you would rather spend crowns instead of cash, and are upset that you can't.
You also are ignoring that there's a lot of other content designed specifically for that area - instances, dungeons, the new PvP areas, and so on.... Those count as new areas as well.
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Then on the other hand they could have made a scrimpy dlc version of Vvardenfell and not put the man power behind such a huge addition because people might get upset. lol
Hmmm scrimpy lame version of Vvardenfell for free with sub or full blown expac for 40 bones?
They made the right choice!
Sz
However you are wrong in suggesting that Zenimax "isn't breaking with their usual process".
For the "issue" is this. Prior to ESO's launch Matt Frior spent a lot of time justifying the decision to charge a subscription. And the "argument" he used was that with a sub content would never - never - be locked behind a paywall.
Now when this was being "discussed" on mmorpg.com one of the questions I "threw out there" was whether those who were "supporting" MF's position was whether they believed there would never be an expansion. I was "sceptical" shall we say - WoW has subs and charges for expansions etc. so I "expected" "expansions". Or - as @Torval said - "Never" for ZoS means "until a later time when we change our mind".
MF however made a big deal about it though and when the "mandatory" sub was dropped and the "optional" sub was introduced nothing was done to dispel this impression.
So - OK - ZoS have opted to make this an "expansion" and not part of the "rented content" they have chosen to "charge" for the "expansion". Not only charge for Morrowind though but to exclude it from the "crown" store. Meaning subscribers cannot use any crowns they have accrued.
To be clear I have no problem with ZoS charging. My mantra remains: "No payment no content; no content no payment". And I am sure that some will have decided to "pay a sub" in order to get "future content". They could well feel that the goal posts have changed.
Maybe ZoS are - as suggested - simply being "greedy" but I have a different view: that ZoS are facing up to why subscriptions are - potentially - bad for developers. To repeat: bad for developers.
For sure "(good) subscribers" can form a very loyal customer base generating a regular income. Subscriptions however also allow for "bad subscribers" by allowing people to "freeload". To get the 30 hours of new content and maybe a DLC or two for a single $15 1 month sub. And maybe when a few more DLC packs have been released sub again. Maybe.
I would be happier if they opted for one model or the other. I can understand why they want to have their cake and eat it. This could cost them subscribers though imo.
Just how many hours of story content do you think that the current zones have? My experience tells me that each original zone has something in the neighborhood of 20-30 hours.
Inconsistent would be taking the announcement that this chapter will have 30 hours and declaring that to be "huge." As far as story content goes they are adding one zone. No more than Craglorn or Orsinium or Reaper's March for that matter.
And no, splitting the 30 hours into 3 10 hour zones is not what I was talking about when I said an ESO expansion would be more credible as a real thing rather than a re-branding of DLC if it had 60 or 90 hours of content... which is what 2 or 3 zones in the game currently provide.
At any rate... we shall see just how "huge" it is in June won't we?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I am simply "recognising" that - in the limit - @Quarterstack 's point is valid/ Whether it is one or three zones - or 30 or 90 hours - is a very "arbitrary" judgement as to whether something is included or excluded from the optional sub.
Edit: And re-reading your point yes you were simply saying if this then that so - as you say you were not inconsistent. I misread your post. Sorry. I think its the "might warrant the label bit though that gives the impression.
However it is a side issue. A derailment of your key point. Which I totally agree with. Namely:
"Not upgrade purchasable with crowns and calling one zone an expansion (2 or 3 zones might warrant the label) doesn't really jive with their Sub + DLC with ESO+ getting the DLC included with their previous (and by that I mean prior to today) business model."
"We're currently exploring new ways to add even more benefits to the ESO Plus membership in addition to what we currently offer, and would love to hear any ideas you have in this thread. We look forward to hearing what you suggest, and thank you for your feedback and continued support!"
My suggestion was 1% discount for the cost of ESO+ per month already subscribed capped at 25%... fat chance though
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
This is another ZoS cash grab feeding off the rabid nature people view Miirrowind in the pantheon of ES mythology.
I think ZoS figured they had built enough good will with having One Tamriel come in to rave positive reception, and most recently them announcing housing coming in (for free) and before that is even released they announce this.
Also ironic they have the pre order up well before the housing is officially released. Because not only has housing seen a lot of negative comments but the other changes to the game and mechanics and other things. This next update/DLC is going to be recieved in a seriously negative way. There is always that hope that the PST isnt the final release but it always is.
So the timing of all this is clearly aimed to get people to pre order before they see how screwed up the game will be after this next update. Announcing the most anticipated addition to ANY MMO that doesnt have it...housing, and before its even released they announce the biggest and most popular region of their whole world.
I think your 1% per month idea is to timid though! Also to complex - Finance departments take "time" to implement "payroll changes" - and your suggestion would a continuous one. A simpler idea perhaps would be: crafting bag "free" after 6 (3?) months sub ... even if you no longer sub. Doubt that would be introduced though unless they decide to sell said bag in the cash shop.
Added an edit to my above post as well btw.
Without some change to the sub 'perks' theyre not even remotely worth it right now Crafting bag or not.
But despite the obvious math more than half the people still think subbing is the better option.
But theyre also probably the type to riot and burn things down in a town where some speaker they disagree with is on Friday night then go out and march in a 'freedom of speech' rally on Sunday.
If it comes out and it's not much more than a dlc... then biatch all you want at that time.
If it comes out and it feels like it's totally worth $40 or more then there ain't much left to say other than, can't wait for what next year's chapter brings.
Zenimax has lost my trust as far as subs go. Loyally subbed since launch, 6 months at a time. It would take a lot to win me back as far as a sub is concerned.
This new "Chapter" idea just means the included with a sub "DLC" will be a lot smaller and less meaningful as all the meat will be in a "Chapter".
I guess the good news is that the new business model saves me $100 a year.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
copied from here: http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2017/02/20/eso-morrowind--vvardenfell-flora-and-fauna
Vvardenfell Flora and Fauna
By Tilenra Sildreth, Telvanni Naturalist
The Vvardenfell landscape undergoes a constant cycle of death and rebirth. Red Mountain's lava flows, eruptions and ash-fall cause die-back in the deciduous woodlands and mushroom jungles, violent upheaval alters the landscape and buries (or exposes!) the fallen ruins of ancient civilizations. But the island expands as lava hardens, and new plants and fungi emerge from the cooling ashes amongst the formations of igneous rock.
Plant life flourishes in the rich soil fertilized by volcanic activity, and so Vvardenfell is home to a diverse set of biomes.
Fungi quickly absorb rich nutrients from the volcanic soil and grow to enormous proportions to dominate the landscape. The large Ink-Cap Mushrooms along the Bitter Coast thrive on the detritus of decaying swamp life, while smaller fungus varieties cover the rocks, trees and even some animals, such as the fungus-encrusted Shroom Beetle. Adorable!
Balmora, in the southwest and inland from the Bitter Coast, is still forested, though ash from Red Mountain eruptions threatens to denude the slopes.
Though barren, The Ashlands host a remarkable number of species. Ash Hoppers skitter through the dry ash dunes and giant Xylaria fungi extend their tendrils into the sky. Travelers beware! Hungry, reptilian Cliff Striders lurk atop the crags.
Fetcherflies build their hives where they can tap volcanic heat to gestate their eggs. When they hatch, the queen taps a source of magma to animate the nest, and it transforms into a walking Hive Golem that relocates the swarm to new surroundings.
Nix-Oxen roam the Grazelands in the northeastern part of the island, and though generally considered to be mild-mannered, they will not hesitate to defend their territory.
Two-legged Vvardvarks romp through the grasses and feed on small bugs. Some people keep these delightful creatures as pets, despite the smell.
Ancestral Tombs dot the landscape, and powerful Daedra known as Hunger, summoned as guardians, often lurk within.
The largest mushrooms in Morrowind appear in Zafirbel Bay. This majestic species is cultivated by Telvanni wizards and take a wizard's lifetime (a thousand years) to grow. These fungus forests have a special ecology of their own—but that's a subject for another book.
This is just a glimpse at some of the vastly diverse creatures and environments you'll encounter on your adventures in ESO: Morrowind this June. Which are you most looking forward to seeing yourself? Share your thoughts with us on Twitter @TESOnline and the official forums!
Probably around 5000 crowns.
It would motivate people to subscribe right now - and please existing subscribers.
That's so obviously worth a LOT more than the few sales they'd be missing out on.
Unfortunately, they went the Homestead way of fleecing their customers. It's not a good path to be on.
Reddit threads are more upbeat than mmorpg.com. No offense to this forum but it's patrons have turned it into a bitch and moan zone. Most of us are having fun. We don't feel "fleeced." If you don't want to buy a pretty costume from the cash shop just do the content. Except for extravagant mounts most everything in the cash shop gets handed to me for free as I am questing or leveling up. I even get free coins to spend in cash shop. I have not spent one penny on this game outside of the original box purchase and my costumes and dyes are accumulating at an astounding rate. You people who bitch and moan about everything are not even playing the game or you would know that.
And if you think you are getting robbed with your subscription then unsub. No one is forcing you at gunpoint to pay a monthly. It is for a crafting bag which you don't even need because mules/alts.
Three points:
1. The subscription model failed: ZoS dropped the sub. With no sub 8.5M sales. I won't go as far as suggesting that these "millions" of new buyers felt "fleeced" ...... but its tempting. And more evidence than your "we don't feel fleeced" comment. And there are a lot of posters on the ESO forums that do.
2. Not allowing people to access Morrowind would have been a change to what MF talked about even before the game launched. Not allowing people to use crowns to buy Morrowind is rubbing salt in the wound.
3. This is the site that has voted ESO mmo of the year. An accolade that ZoS have used.
This is not bitching and moaning. And a lot of posters on this site care - care enough to question ZoS's decision. In exactly the same way I questioned ZoS's decision to launch with a sub.
As I said above companies like "good" subscribers; using a sub model however allows "subscription freeloaders". To counter the latter companies reduce the value of a sub. And in ESO's case it is reverting to pretty much what it was when it launched: a $15 monthly advanced cash shop purchase.
I'm talking about the Homestead upgrade and, specifically, the Morrowind expansion.
I'm not talking about costumes or mounts - as I don't care about those.
Personally, I don't find the argument that "if you're not happy, you can just not do it" is compelling. I mean, that would mean they could charge a million dollars for the expansion, and that wouldn't be unreasonable either - because we could just not buy it, right?
I'm sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.
They're in a good position with this game - and they're earning good profit. A lot of people aren't subscribers - so they're going to have to pay up no matter what.
They have the opportunity to show their consumers that they're fair - and that they want to make the subscription model a true consumer-friendly and worthwhile model.
That would make customers loyal and happy.
But no, they chose to fleece us instead.
The Sub arguments in regard to this release are getting a bit tired as well. No one that is a previous subscriber is getting screwed by this, as they've delivered to those people all along. Be it crowns, content, crafting bags etc.. so that's a non sequitur.
It only effects the sub going forward which with such advanced notice, there's ample time to rethink it's value and act accordingly.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I don't believe I've said anything about morality or "evil" people here. I'm talking about ways you can profit and do business.
What I mean by fleecing, in this case, is making people pay for something they want - that you could easily give them ANOTHER way of buying without losing much, if anything. Here, I'm arguing that they will gain in the longer term by offering subscribers the opportunity to spend their crowns on the expansion.
I haven't said ANYTHING about being screwed.
I'm going to buy the expansion (if I'm still playing it in june) - because I think it has value for me.
That doesn't mean I think it's a good way to do business - or a good way to value your loyal subscribers.
ZOS had many options on how they added Vvanderfell, the Warden and PVP battlegrounds to the game including doing it using their existing DLC model. They chose one option. Some don't like that option and some don't care.
WTF is your problem with people who feel like criticizing their choice that you feel compelled to jump in with your insults despite being a very casual player who hardly ever plays the game by your own admission?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
My post wasn't just directed at you btw it was toward the outcry in general.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED