So your measurement which carries the most weight is innovation? Cool, just wanted to see where you were coming from. So what's the best of all time for you?
Well, to call a game great, or any product, there should be something great and different from all other products - it is obvious. If it is well made - it is just average.
Ahhhhhhh, ok....... Thanks for the clarity. Your post just changed the way the world will review games......
That is called objectivity. Very few reviews of games are objective. Often the fan boys become haters, when they realize the hype is delusional. Others keep the hype, but it is always delusional. So to call every well made game the best ever, is just stupid, but common behavior. Most of the people who played WoW never played any other MMORPG. Or they played very few. But they call WoW the best game ever. In comparison to what? The thousands of different games you know nothing about. And that ignorant behavior is more common in the US.
Actually, I'd call you out on that bit about objectivity. Why not run over to Metacritic and see the worst possible examples of actual users being objective about a game (on both sides of the coin). For YEARS players screamed that they needed more objectivity, but now we've seen quite simply that players are significantly less objective than reviewers. In fact! You've shown that yourself. At least with a reviewer, I know that they are conforming to some sort of standard for evaluation. I know that they have categories in which they are rating the game. That is so much more objective than saying something like "Well, to call a game great, or any product, there should be something great and different from all other products" which categorizes a number of games approaching zero. You couldn't even tell me a game you considered great. Why? Well it simply wouldn't conform to your own measure. I'm sure that if you gave one I could tell you about a game that it emulated closely or in some regard.
Actually, I reviewed games for a website years ago, so I played a mountain of games. Probably more than what you could comprehend. Objectively speaking, WoW would sit in my top 10 list, easily. Also, it's the only game I can say I've come back and played consistently each and every release, even though I get fed up and quit each expansion.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but objective you are not!
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Raiders seems content with current WoW, so those 300 workers did something that appeals to that crowd.
If you ask my subjective opinion... Well first of all I could list a long row of things I think about WoW, from how the game was back in Vanilla and all the way to the current Xpac. And I could list a row of things that I think other games does better, but also a lot of things other games simply does not do at all or not as well as WoW.
But I think ultimately in my case, the kind of older adult I turned into in the past 10 years, simply does not go hand in hand with what WoW turned into the past 10 years.
So it would be easy for me to just snort at Blizzards 300 workers, but at the same time, I have to give them credit for keeping that many people with jobs, directly supporting a lot of people and families no doubt.
But so does McDonalds, and their food imo is also crap. In that sense I feel that WoW is empty calories to its consumers, but people eat and play what they want. Which at the end of the day is none of my business to judge.
So no I am not impressed by the game, but I am impressed they decide to keep 300 families afloat and with food on the table.
Dungeon Fighter Online dumps on WoW in terms of revenue and players. It's reached as high as 3 million concurrent players in China alone. Lineage 1 may also be higher than WoW, not definitely sure on that one though. Regardless, saying that most people who played WoW never played any other mmo, and basing that assumption on WoW's player count or popularity makes no sense since there's dozens and dozens of other mmo's they could have played also. That's like saying that most people who ate at McDonalds never ate at any other restaurants.
Final Fantasy XIV is competing. Over 6 million subs now. Multiple massive conventions each year and huge updates with features throughout the year. /thread.
I played and greatly enjoyed WoW for around 3 years, but I never actually liked the design paradigm.
I never agreed with the themepark concept - and I absolutely despise their expansion philosophy of nullifying all progress every two years. Especially when you consider the ENTIRE design paradigm is focused exclusively on progress - and then they deliberately make your progress worthless over and over.
Seriously?
Since release, they've moved it ever more away from my design preferences - and though I respect their craftsmanship, I have to say Blizzard are among the least imaginative developers in existence.
Well, maybe not - maybe it's just what the suits want.
Also, I simply can't let go of how much time and how many resources they must have wasted on Titan.
As a development house - they're the most spoiled of them all, and they have every opportunity to create exactly what they want. They have the freedom and money to do whatever and however- and what do they do? Add a bunch of trivial crap to their cloned game designs (HS, HotS and OW).
They're in a unique position to revolutionise the entire genre - and it wouldn't even be a risk for them. They have the resource to burn. No one else in this industry could do that.
Yes but those 300 developers should also start working on new character models...
IF World OF Warcraft had some realistic character models put in game, stopped with all the PVP Gear, and Arena Grinding, and made the game like it once was as well as update quest markers to show on old Maps like Gold Shire, I would start playing it again...
Jeff Strain, one of the founders of Arenanet (the creators of guild wars) once gave a keynote speech that really resonated with me. An excerpt.
I personally have heard numerous designers and
producers working on unreleased MMO projects describe their game in
these terms: "It's like WoW, but..." I just shake my head when I hear
this, because the team that is best poised to deliver a successful game
that is an evolution of WoW is... well, the WoW team. They've got their
thing, and they're good at it. Let's all carve out our own thing, and be
the best at it. Truly great games are made by passionate teams
who are on fire with the notion of changing the industry. If you are
aiming at a competitor rather than aiming to make something fresh and
innovative, you've lost.
Too many game developers working on mmorpgs think they can make the next world of warcraft, and in that line of thinking they have already damaged the potential of their own project. They are not the ones best suited in making the next WoW. MMO is a technology. Developers who can simply see it as that first and foremast, can let their imagination carry that forward to create something new with it. Then they have a chance to create something great with it.
P.S. If anyone wants to say that GW2 tried to compete with WoW and failed to topple it, that is fine. It isn't relevant to this, as Jeff Strain left the company long ago, before GW2.
Final Fantasy XIV is competing. Over 6 million subs now. Multiple massive conventions each year and huge updates with features throughout the year. /thread.
Source for this figure? Never seen any official sub numbers posted by SQENIX and even Super Data has never reported anything like this that I'm aware of.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Dungeon Fighter Online dumps on WoW in terms of revenue and players. It's reached as high as 3 million concurrent players in China alone. Lineage 1 may also be higher than WoW, not definitely sure on that one though. Regardless, saying that most people who played WoW never played any other mmo, and basing that assumption on WoW's player count or popularity makes no sense since there's dozens and dozens of other mmo's they could have played also. That's like saying that most people who ate at McDonalds never ate at any other restaurants.
As for the players and the games - most people have limited free time. And there are hundreds of MMORPGs around the world. I bet you never heard about most of them, so how you could claim WoW is the best? Or any game is the best?
I start to think you are just a troll, who wants to argue without any other purpose.
Dungeon Fighter Online had 3 million "concurrent" players in China alone. http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-08-24-dungeon-fighter-online-passes-3-million-concurrent-users The stats you posted are total players for a quarter. Not the same thing. Also, who said anything about WoW being the best? You made a claim that most people who played WoW never played any other mmo. I rhetorically asked you for a source, knowing that there was none and you were just making baseless assumptions. You then claimed that since WoW is the most played mmo, that somehow backed your assumption that most WoW players never played anything else. I then pointed out the ridiculousness of that claim. Good strawman though.
Final Fantasy XIV is competing. Over 6 million
subs now. Multiple massive conventions each year and huge updates with
features throughout the year. /thread.
Source for this figure? Never seen any official sub numbers posted by
SQENIX and even Super Data has never reported anything like this that
I'm aware of.
Actually, I'd call you out on that bit about objectivity. Why not run over to Metacritic and see the worst possible examples of actual users being objective about a game (on both sides of the coin). For YEARS players screamed that they needed more objectivity, but now we've seen quite simply that players are significantly less objective than reviewers. In fact! You've shown that yourself. At least with a reviewer, I know that they are conforming to some sort of standard for evaluation. I know that they have categories in which they are rating the game. That is so much more objective than saying something like "Well, to call a game great, or any product, there should be something great and different from all other products" which categorizes a number of games approaching zero. You couldn't even tell me a game you considered great. Why? Well it simply wouldn't conform to your own measure. I'm sure that if you gave one I could tell you about a game that it emulated closely or in some regard.
Actually, I reviewed games for a website years ago, so I played a mountain of games. Probably more than what you could comprehend. Objectively speaking, WoW would sit in my top 10 list, easily. Also, it's the only game I can say I've come back and played consistently each and every release, even though I get fed up and quit each expansion.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but objective you are not!
I never say WoW is a bad game. So I do not know what are you arguing about. Also I read many bad reviews in web sites, and your CV is a little bit irrelevant. I doubt you have any degree about virtual systems and gaming theories, like many other people who write about games, so explain to me please, how exactly your opinion is more expert and relevant than the opinion of any other player?
Yes, subjectively, you've read reviews you, subjectively, don't agree with. No, I don't have a degree in reviewing games. They don't even have courses for that in America. Maybe they do elsewhere, I don't know. I also don't have a degree in virtual systems, which also also very specific, and not something that American colleges and Universities provide. My opinion is more relevant than yours because I use very well defined criteria to review games whereas, you still haven't told me ANYTHING about how you would review a game, other than if it does everything differently than another game then it's great, which is fucking laughable. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see your 0/10 commentary on metacritic. Honestly, it's people like you who have completely fucked systems like Metacritic from providing ANY sort of useful data. If you're actually interested in objectively reviewing a game, then please learn what objective means first, then actually apply that to your assessment of games. Not being able to explain HOW you're being objective will ALWAYS make me more relevant than you. Period. Even if you're being COMPLETELY biased, you should be able to provide good, objective criteria that would support yourself, and you can't do that. You can't even tell me what a great game is versus Overwatch. You just avoid the question. That's cool, though, message received, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Final Fantasy XIV is competing. Over 6 million subs now. Multiple massive conventions each year and huge updates with features throughout the year. /thread.
Final Fantasy XIV is competing. Over 6 million subs now. Multiple massive conventions each year and huge updates with features throughout the year. /thread.
Ffxiv has 6 million accounts made. They never added servers since they claimed 1 million accounts at relaunch. It is impossible for the game to have 6 mill subs there are not enough servers running.
Game has between 600k and 800k active subs. This point in its patch cycle before the expansion more then likly the lower part since there is a long gap in content before the expansion.
Half the servers are void of life everywhere but shire.
Legion is definitely the best expansion since Wrath. The pacing is nearly perfect. The story is strong. You're still very much on a guided tour, though. It becomes overly evident at points where you finish up a piece of new content and it doesn't give you a follow-up question, so you're left wondering whether you forgot something, lol.
Sorry, but thanks for my morning laugh! You have been drinking too much of the koolaid, Legion is the worst expansion, by a large margin!
All you have to do is look at the servers, used to be you could always find busy ones, not any more. I have a large friends list, most were playing in August, now only a few can be found and only on weekends.
Legion is definitely the best expansion since Wrath. The pacing is nearly perfect. The story is strong. You're still very much on a guided tour, though. It becomes overly evident at points where you finish up a piece of new content and it doesn't give you a follow-up question, so you're left wondering whether you forgot something, lol.
Sorry, but thanks for my morning laugh! You have been drinking too much of the koolaid, Legion is the worst expansion, by a large margin!
All you have to do is look at the servers, used to be you could always find busy ones, not any more. I have a large friends list, most were playing in August, now only a few can be found and only on weekends.
If you think that Legion is worse than WoD, then you're drinking something way stronger than koolaid.
Legion is definitely the best expansion since Wrath. The pacing is nearly perfect. The story is strong. You're still very much on a guided tour, though. It becomes overly evident at points where you finish up a piece of new content and it doesn't give you a follow-up question, so you're left wondering whether you forgot something, lol.
Sorry, but thanks for my morning laugh! You have been drinking too much of the koolaid, Legion is the worst expansion, by a large margin!
All you have to do is look at the servers, used to be you could always find busy ones, not any more. I have a large friends list, most were playing in August, now only a few can be found and only on weekends.
Meh, I'd say I was drinking the Kool-aid if I said it was the best since BC and completely disregarded WotLK. Do you feel like me saying it's the best thing since Legion is like stating it's the best thing ever? Did Cata, MoP or WoD hold some special place in your heart? In my opinion, the best thing about WoD were the videos leading up to WoD.
Ask your large list of friends if they felt like Legion was the best expansion since WotLK. I'd actually be pretty interested to know what they felt was a better expansion between Cata, MoP and WoD, and why. Even just subjectively speaking. I thought Legion story (most important to me) was great, the pacing of progression was good, and they actually dabbled in some more difficult content, probably just to test the waters. There are still issues, for sure, and there are systems I'm not a real fan of, but overall it's an improvement over the past few expansions. No?
Dungeon Fighter Online had 3 million "concurrent" players in China alone. http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-08-24-dungeon-fighter-online-passes-3-million-concurrent-users The stats you posted are total players for a quarter. Not the same thing. Also, who said anything about WoW being the best? You made a claim that most people who played WoW never played any other mmo. I rhetorically asked you for a source, knowing that there was none and you were just making baseless assumptions. You then claimed that since WoW is the most played mmo, that somehow backed your assumption that most WoW players never played anything else. I then pointed out the ridiculousness of that claim. Good strawman though.
In fact I do not say they never played anything else, but none or few games So to claim any game is the best is highly irrational.
Well, you are right, it WoW is not the most played game.
Still I'm not sure what are you arguing about? If you just want to prove I'm wrong about something - that is trolling. If you have a thesis about the topic or my thoughts, I'm waiting to hear it.
I've never known him give up until he gets the last post. Just let him reply to you and be done with it.
Legion is definitely the best expansion since Wrath. The pacing is nearly perfect. The story is strong. You're still very much on a guided tour, though. It becomes overly evident at points where you finish up a piece of new content and it doesn't give you a follow-up question, so you're left wondering whether you forgot something, lol.
Sorry, but thanks for my morning laugh! You have been drinking too much of the koolaid, Legion is the worst expansion, by a large margin!
All you have to do is look at the servers, used to be you could always find busy ones, not any more. I have a large friends list, most were playing in August, now only a few can be found and only on weekends.
I have a large friends list and it keeps growing. Odd how we have the exact opposite happen to us this expansion. In your opinion it s the worst x pac. In many others it s better then most or their favorite ever. The population is doing very well.
Comments
Actually, I'd call you out on that bit about objectivity. Why not run over to Metacritic and see the worst possible examples of actual users being objective about a game (on both sides of the coin). For YEARS players screamed that they needed more objectivity, but now we've seen quite simply that players are significantly less objective than reviewers. In fact! You've shown that yourself. At least with a reviewer, I know that they are conforming to some sort of standard for evaluation. I know that they have categories in which they are rating the game. That is so much more objective than saying something like "Well, to call a game great, or any product, there should be something great and different from all other products" which categorizes a number of games approaching zero. You couldn't even tell me a game you considered great. Why? Well it simply wouldn't conform to your own measure. I'm sure that if you gave one I could tell you about a game that it emulated closely or in some regard.
Actually, I reviewed games for a website years ago, so I played a mountain of games. Probably more than what you could comprehend. Objectively speaking, WoW would sit in my top 10 list, easily. Also, it's the only game I can say I've come back and played consistently each and every release, even though I get fed up and quit each expansion.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but objective you are not!
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Raiders seems content with current WoW, so those 300 workers did something that appeals to that crowd.
If you ask my subjective opinion... Well first of all I could list a long row of things I think about WoW, from how the game was back in Vanilla and all the way to the current Xpac. And I could list a row of things that I think other games does better, but also a lot of things other games simply does not do at all or not as well as WoW.
But I think ultimately in my case, the kind of older adult I turned into in the past 10 years, simply does not go hand in hand with what WoW turned into the past 10 years.
So it would be easy for me to just snort at Blizzards 300 workers, but at the same time, I have to give them credit for keeping that many people with jobs, directly supporting a lot of people and families no doubt.
But so does McDonalds, and their food imo is also crap.
In that sense I feel that WoW is empty calories to its consumers, but people eat and play what they want.
Which at the end of the day is none of my business to judge.
So no I am not impressed by the game, but I am impressed they decide to keep 300 families afloat and with food on the table.
By the way, that company that you said has no idea what to do in the future: http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/7120133/#Comment_7120133 Seems they have a handle on things.
I never agreed with the themepark concept - and I absolutely despise their expansion philosophy of nullifying all progress every two years. Especially when you consider the ENTIRE design paradigm is focused exclusively on progress - and then they deliberately make your progress worthless over and over.
Seriously?
Since release, they've moved it ever more away from my design preferences - and though I respect their craftsmanship, I have to say Blizzard are among the least imaginative developers in existence.
Well, maybe not - maybe it's just what the suits want.
Also, I simply can't let go of how much time and how many resources they must have wasted on Titan.
As a development house - they're the most spoiled of them all, and they have every opportunity to create exactly what they want. They have the freedom and money to do whatever and however- and what do they do? Add a bunch of trivial crap to their cloned game designs (HS, HotS and OW).
They're in a unique position to revolutionise the entire genre - and it wouldn't even be a risk for them. They have the resource to burn. No one else in this industry could do that.
Tragic, really.
G.O.A.T MMO
IF World OF Warcraft had some realistic character models put in game, stopped with all the PVP Gear, and Arena Grinding, and made the game like it once was as well as update quest markers to show on old Maps like Gold Shire, I would start playing it again...
OverWatch on the other hand is something I play.
Too many game developers working on mmorpgs think they can make the next world of warcraft, and in that line of thinking they have already damaged the potential of their own project. They are not the ones best suited in making the next WoW.
MMO is a technology. Developers who can simply see it as that first and foremast, can let their imagination carry that forward to create something new with it. Then they have a chance to create something great with it.
P.S. If anyone wants to say that GW2 tried to compete with WoW and failed to topple it, that is fine. It isn't relevant to this, as Jeff Strain left the company long ago, before GW2.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
none , and probably false ....but we dont know
Yes, subjectively, you've read reviews you, subjectively, don't agree with. No, I don't have a degree in reviewing games. They don't even have courses for that in America. Maybe they do elsewhere, I don't know. I also don't have a degree in virtual systems, which also also very specific, and not something that American colleges and Universities provide. My opinion is more relevant than yours because I use very well defined criteria to review games whereas, you still haven't told me ANYTHING about how you would review a game, other than if it does everything differently than another game then it's great, which is fucking laughable. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see your 0/10 commentary on metacritic. Honestly, it's people like you who have completely fucked systems like Metacritic from providing ANY sort of useful data. If you're actually interested in objectively reviewing a game, then please learn what objective means first, then actually apply that to your assessment of games. Not being able to explain HOW you're being objective will ALWAYS make me more relevant than you. Period. Even if you're being COMPLETELY biased, you should be able to provide good, objective criteria that would support yourself, and you can't do that. You can't even tell me what a great game is versus Overwatch. You just avoid the question. That's cool, though, message received, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
https://www.technobuffalo.com/2016/07/21/final-fantasy-xiv-6-million-lifetime-players/
Game has between 600k and 800k active subs. This point in its patch cycle before the expansion more then likly the lower part since there is a long gap in content before the expansion.
Half the servers are void of life everywhere but shire.
All you have to do is look at the servers, used to be you could always find busy ones, not any more. I have a large friends list, most were playing in August, now only a few can be found and only on weekends.
Meh, I'd say I was drinking the Kool-aid if I said it was the best since BC and completely disregarded WotLK. Do you feel like me saying it's the best thing since Legion is like stating it's the best thing ever? Did Cata, MoP or WoD hold some special place in your heart? In my opinion, the best thing about WoD were the videos leading up to WoD.
Ask your large list of friends if they felt like Legion was the best expansion since WotLK. I'd actually be pretty interested to know what they felt was a better expansion between Cata, MoP and WoD, and why. Even just subjectively speaking. I thought Legion story (most important to me) was great, the pacing of progression was good, and they actually dabbled in some more difficult content, probably just to test the waters. There are still issues, for sure, and there are systems I'm not a real fan of, but overall it's an improvement over the past few expansions. No?
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
I have a large friends list and it keeps growing. Odd how we have the exact opposite happen to us this expansion. In your opinion it s the worst x pac. In many others it s better then most or their favorite ever. The population is doing very well.