There is a bit misleading information here but i would hope to god most people fully understand what is going on.
Alpha/Bets is only a term it actually has no factual way to define it aside from what the developer themselves call it.
The term Alpha has been used to start the modern gimmick of getting players to pay for and accept unfinished and unacceptable work.Devs often in the past just made excuses or took a lot of criticism,now it is super easy for their PR guy to just say .."hey it's Alpha"
Funny coincidence, two hours ago we were discussing that exact subject on reddit: "Also there's no consensus for the appellation of every milestone or phase of development in the video game industry. Some studios call their feature-complete and mostly polished products "Pre-Alpha" for marketing reasons, while others, like [...], tend to go in the opposite direction because of their past commitments, as you've mentioned."
I added that one and Valiance Online, which is a competitor to CoT if I understood correctly. Both seem stuck in development since a long long time. They should probably merge. =P
I added that one and Valiance Online, which is a competitor to CoT if I understood correctly. Both seem stuck in development since a long long time. They should probably merge. =P
Nah, they are going in completely different directions, which is good IMO. They are looking for different fan bases with only minimal overlap. The only things they really have in common is a superhero theme with a robust costume designer.
I work with game, web and software devs. There is a reason for Pre-alpha, alpha, beta, etc. despite some of the understandably deserved cynical beliefs.
This covers it fairly well, so no need to type out the concept behind the stages of software development.
So do some game devs misname their stages, probably. Do some devs try to milk money from CF, Alpha, etc. most likely.
Most however I bet are inexperienced project managers and are thrust from being an enthusiastic game developer into a small/medium sized business owner with a sudden influx of cash and business responsibilities for a very demanding audience.
Sure you may reasonably say, well if they are such noobs they shouldn't ask for money! Well consider there are those (such as myself) who are willing to gamble on a big dream and some promising demos, experience or backgrounds. So if the market is willing to pay them then they definitely should ask for the money and learn as they go. All in the hopes of pulling it off where there would not likely be a realistic chance without such funding.
Without crowdfunding we would be stuck with little innovation for MMOs. Being that they are too costly in time and money on top of risk towards ROI for publishers and investors to really grow the genre as it needs to. So if it is in a bad state now for most of you, it would be even worse off without crowdfunding.
Hopefully the first larger projects from more distinguished teams make it across the finish line and make enough revenue to improve. So players get a game, the genre gets some more fuel towards innovation/features to draw upon and the devs are rewarded for their risks doing this job vs taking more lucrative and safer career options.
Without crowdfunding we would be stuck with little innovation for MMOs. Being that they are too costly in time and money on top of risk towards ROI for publishers and investors to really grow the genre as it needs to. So if it is in a bad state now for most of you, it would be even worse off without crowdfunding.
edit (2021): Concerning innovations, Indie MMORPGs indeed created many innovative systems and features. For example CF with its world generation tools that players can use to create their own personal map, or their building kits to build personalized castles and forts, or the unique campaigns that can be generated on the fly with their own set of rules. Let alone the optimization of the Unity Engine to enable large-scale battles and massive worlds. CU, also innovate on many fronts: 5,000 players and bots in a single spot at acceptable frame rate and networking, block-by-block construction, stability and destruction, AIR system that allows projectile collisions and special effects, the ability builder system to create abilities out of components, etc.
(2017) I disagree. Most of the crowdfunded projects show very little innovations compared to traditionally funded MMORPGs (EVE Online, TERA, ArcheAge, BDO, TSW, DFO, etc.). In the opposite, I think they're often just recreating old games with a few new mechanics that often already exist in other games.
Star Citizen and Elite: Dangerous are the big exceptions I guess, but it's probably more due to their massive funding and their genre (space sims) than the fact they've been crowdfunded.
If anything, I believe crowdfunding generally hinders innovation, because with so little money, the studios barely have enough dev resources to pull off new and complex systems.
We often hear the studios claiming that their crowdfunded game is so innovative that publishers won't take the risk to fund it, or that they will lose creative control over the project, but the main reasons I guess are: 1) publishers rarely want to fund some remakes of old games that caters to a small, nostalgic audience because it's financially very risky 2) crowdfunding is free money with little obligations to deliver anything.
I work with game, web and software devs. There is a reason for Pre-alpha, alpha, beta, etc. despite some of the understandably deserved cynical beliefs.
This covers it fairly well, so no need to type out the concept behind the stages of software development.
So do some game devs misname their stages, probably. Do some devs try to milk money from CF, Alpha, etc. most likely.
Most however I bet are inexperienced project managers and are thrust from being an enthusiastic game developer into a small/medium sized business owner with a sudden influx of cash and business responsibilities for a very demanding audience.
Sure you may reasonably say, well if they are such noobs they shouldn't ask for money! Well consider there are those (such as myself) who are willing to gamble on a big dream and some promising demos, experience or backgrounds. So if the market is willing to pay them then they definitely should ask for the money and learn as they go. All in the hopes of pulling it off where there would not likely be a realistic chance without such funding.
Without crowdfunding we would be stuck with little innovation for MMOs. Being that they are too costly in time and money on top of risk towards ROI for publishers and investors to really grow the genre as it needs to. So if it is in a bad state now for most of you, it would be even worse off without crowdfunding.
Hopefully the first larger projects from more distinguished teams make it across the finish line and make enough revenue to improve. So players get a game, the genre gets some more fuel towards innovation/features to draw upon and the devs are rewarded for their risks doing this job vs taking more lucrative and safer career options.
So Krage, what do you do? You work with Game Devs?
Related to this topic: I'm working on a game right now, its in open beta. Not exactly an action MMO, more like Astro Empires or OGame. I've had 1000 people sign up. About 100 people playing it right now. Which sounds impressive considering other ACTUAL MMOs have zero players
I had a small kickstarter, made like $3000, enough to pay artists. I agree with Krage when it comes to "noobness". I've been toying with this game for years. I honestly thought I would of been ready to launch like 6 months ago but its been steadily getting closer. Only a handful of features/fixes remaining and I hope to go live in a couple months.
I'm just one guy with a small project (which hopefully EXPLODES!). I can imagine a larger project with a group of developers and several moving parts can get bogged down. Seemingly simple features need a dozen other pieces to work and nothing ever goes completely bug free.
I think the real time sink is when you play the game with others and realize there is something wrong and part of the game needs a revamp and six more features need to be expanded on to make it work. It goes around for months but eventually settles on something cool.In a big project its probably a lot harder to make shifts like that or they realize that the game they are making is fundamentally crap and give up.
Crowdfunding was a big help, motivational if anything else. A lot of "fans" out there validating the hard work you put into it. A lot of people are willing to pay just to see something new and innovative come to life. I hope that happens more often
Bezos should invest in Pantheon, CU & Crowfall and put them under
AGS but allow them to remain their own company like how he did with
Zappos.
Imagine having all of those people under one roof + Smed
& C&C guy will be a all star line-up and all the
counsel for Amazon games he'll ever need.
That'd be great. I was thinking, after they announced they would sell games directly on Twitch, how AGS could create a portal to distribute the most popular upcoming indie MMORPGs (CU, SC, etc.) before those studios sign an agreement with Valve.
Another thing is, considering Star Citizen now uses Lumberyard and it seems to be their engine's flagship for now, I bet Amazon will make sure CIG has enough funding to ship a viable product.
Out of 29 projects, 9 cancelled/stalled, 5 launched and 15 are still in development.
5 projects that I'm confident will release in 2021-2022, in no particular order:
Crowfall
Camelot Unchained
Dual Universe
Gloria Victis
Project Gorgon
CF, GV and Project Gorgon seem to be feature complete at this point, so balancing, fixes and polish are expected until launch afaik. DU and CU still have a lot of work ahead, but the progress done is huge so I'm pretty confident it's not so far away.
Out of 29 projects, 9 cancelled/stalled, 4 launched and 16 are still in development.
5 projects that I'm confident will release in 2021-2022, in no particular order:
Crowfall
Camelot Unchained
Dual Universe
Gloria Victis
Project Gorgon
CF, GV and Project Gorgon seem to be feature complete at this point, so only improvements, fixes and polish should await the players until launch afaik. DU and CU still have a lot of work ahead, but the progress done is huge so I'm pretty confident it's not so far away.
I thought Project Gorgon was out already.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Out of 29 projects, 9 cancelled/stalled, 4 launched and 16 are still in development.
5 projects that I'm confident will release in 2021-2022, in no particular order:
Crowfall
Camelot Unchained
Dual Universe
Gloria Victis
Project Gorgon
CF, GV and Project Gorgon seem to be feature complete at this point, so only improvements, fixes and polish should await the players until launch afaik. DU and CU still have a lot of work ahead, but the progress done is huge so I'm pretty confident it's not so far away.
I thought Project Gorgon was out already.
Hmm the Steam page still says "Early Access" and in June 2020 they have written: "Project: Gorgon hasnt left beta but, rather, we had a separate secondary beta client that was running on an updated version of Unity that we closed as we pushed the update live. That was the beta that we were referring to with that specific tweet."
Out of 29 projects, 9 cancelled/stalled, 4 launched and 16 are still in development.
5 projects that I'm confident will release in 2021-2022, in no particular order:
Crowfall
Camelot Unchained
Dual Universe
Gloria Victis
Project Gorgon
CF, GV and Project Gorgon seem to be feature complete at this point, so only improvements, fixes and polish should await the players until launch afaik. DU and CU still have a lot of work ahead, but the progress done is huge so I'm pretty confident it's not so far away.
I thought Project Gorgon was out already.
Hmm the Steam page still says "Early Access" and in June 2020 they have written: "Project: Gorgon hasnt left beta but, rather, we had a separate secondary beta client that was running on an updated version of Unity that we closed as we pushed the update live. That was the beta that we were referring to with that specific tweet."
They must be very close to launch though.
I was just positing on a LOTRO topic, so I read that a Pippen saying "Does he know about Second Breakfast" in regards to Second Beta.. made myself laugh..
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Out of 29 projects, 9 cancelled/stalled, 4 launched and 16 are still in development.
5 projects that I'm confident will release in 2021-2022, in no particular order:
Crowfall
Camelot Unchained
Dual Universe
Gloria Victis
Project Gorgon
CF, GV and Project Gorgon seem to be feature complete at this point, so only improvements, fixes and polish should await the players until launch afaik. DU and CU still have a lot of work ahead, but the progress done is huge so I'm pretty confident it's not so far away.
I thought Project Gorgon was out already.
Hmm the Steam page still says "Early Access" and in June 2020 they have written: "Project: Gorgon hasnt left beta but, rather, we had a separate secondary beta client that was running on an updated version of Unity that we closed as we pushed the update live. That was the beta that we were referring to with that specific tweet."
They must be very close to launch though.
I was just positing on a LOTRO topic, so I read that a Pippen saying "Does he know about Second Breakfast" in regards to Second Beta.. made myself laugh..
lol yea, it's slightly different. Just rewatched the short clip with Pippin saying that, it's been a while since I watched LOTR.
Cancelled, stalled, shut down this is grim reading. Has not SOTA launched, well what passes for a launch?
Oops, you're right! I've edited the info for SOTA, as it indeed launched in 2018.
It may seem grim at first glance but in a few years I guess most of the projects still in development will have launched (hopefully). Also, out of 5 released MMORPGs, there are very successful projects (Elite: Dangerous and Albion Online) and SOTA has sold +200K of copies on Steam.
Out of 29 projects, 9 cancelled/stalled, 4 launched and 16 are still in development.
5 projects that I'm confident will release in 2021-2022, in no particular order:
Crowfall
Camelot Unchained
Dual Universe
Gloria Victis
Project Gorgon
CF, GV and Project Gorgon seem to be feature complete at this point, so only improvements, fixes and polish should await the players until launch afaik. DU and CU still have a lot of work ahead, but the progress done is huge so I'm pretty confident it's not so far away.
I thought Project Gorgon was out already.
Hmm the Steam page still says "Early Access" and in June 2020 they have written: "Project: Gorgon hasnt left beta but, rather, we had a separate secondary beta client that was running on an updated version of Unity that we closed as we pushed the update live. That was the beta that we were referring to with that specific tweet."
They must be very close to launch though.
Project:Gorgon had been playable for quite some time before it came on Steam, but there are very few working on it and I doubt they will consider it ready to leave early access any time soon.
There is still plenty to do compared to many early titles though so if one doesn't mind the rough aesthetics, clunky interface, and oddly low performance in the town of Serbule, it's worth a look.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The ones that have semi-complete loops are so boring and uninspiring too; like Crowfall or star citizen. For all their faults at least the suits pushed developers into quicker development cycles. Now it takes x2+ as long for the same low-quality content. Abysmal state for the mmorpg genre...still. Sadly it makes me yearn for the WoW clone days where a new AAA was pumped out at least once a year. --------------- Cmon don't act like kickstarters/crowdfunded did anything to progress the genre. We got phrases to overexaggerate mechanics in the game(like Sega's Blast processing) Most are dumbed down to the point of mobile game levels or grossly exaggerating ideas and barely have core concepts down(SC). None have innovated anything except for removing the middle man and getting to pocket money without retribution. All we have are ideas and dreams that we paid for or empty husk indie games in perpetual EA.
I work with game, web and software devs. There is a reason for Pre-alpha, alpha, beta, etc. despite some of the understandably deserved cynical beliefs.
This covers it fairly well, so no need to type out the concept behind the stages of software development.
So do some game devs misname their stages, probably. Do some devs try to milk money from CF, Alpha, etc. most likely.
Most however I bet are inexperienced project managers and are thrust from being an enthusiastic game developer into a small/medium sized business owner with a sudden influx of cash and business responsibilities for a very demanding audience.
Sure you may reasonably say, well if they are such noobs they shouldn't ask for money! Well consider there are those (such as myself) who are willing to gamble on a big dream and some promising demos, experience or backgrounds. So if the market is willing to pay them then they definitely should ask for the money and learn as they go. All in the hopes of pulling it off where there would not likely be a realistic chance without such funding.
Without crowdfunding we would be stuck with little innovation for MMOs. Being that they are too costly in time and money on top of risk towards ROI for publishers and investors to really grow the genre as it needs to. So if it is in a bad state now for most of you, it would be even worse off without crowdfunding.
Hopefully the first larger projects from more distinguished teams make it across the finish line and make enough revenue to improve. So players get a game, the genre gets some more fuel towards innovation/features to draw upon and the devs are rewarded for their risks doing this job vs taking more lucrative and safer career options.
Comments
"Also there's no consensus for the appellation of every milestone or phase of development in the video game industry. Some studios call their feature-complete and mostly polished products "Pre-Alpha" for marketing reasons, while others, like [...], tend to go in the opposite direction because of their past commitments, as you've mentioned."
http://itsalreadydeadjim.com/
When you don't want the truth, you will make up your own truth.
Also, another CoH successor, Ship of Heroes, is having a Kickstarter 4Apr2017. http://www.shipofheroes.com/
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
This covers it fairly well, so no need to type out the concept behind the stages of software development.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle
So do some game devs misname their stages, probably. Do some devs try to milk money from CF, Alpha, etc. most likely.
Most however I bet are inexperienced project managers and are thrust from being an enthusiastic game developer into a small/medium sized business owner with a sudden influx of cash and business responsibilities for a very demanding audience.
Sure you may reasonably say, well if they are such noobs they shouldn't ask for money! Well consider there are those (such as myself) who are willing to gamble on a big dream and some promising demos, experience or backgrounds. So if the market is willing to pay them then they definitely should ask for the money and learn as they go. All in the hopes of pulling it off where there would not likely be a realistic chance without such funding.
Without crowdfunding we would be stuck with little innovation for MMOs. Being that they are too costly in time and money on top of risk towards ROI for publishers and investors to really grow the genre as it needs to. So if it is in a bad state now for most of you, it would be even worse off without crowdfunding.
Hopefully the first larger projects from more distinguished teams make it across the finish line and make enough revenue to improve. So players get a game, the genre gets some more fuel towards innovation/features to draw upon and the devs are rewarded for their risks doing this job vs taking more lucrative and safer career options.
earning easy money:
step 1:
make a website
Step 2:
post a lore with couple of mmorpg pics..
step 3:
Mention SWG/UO sandbox on your website
step 4:
start kickstarter/crowdfunding campaign
step 4:
use some HTML bots to you get shit greenlited on steam
step 5 :
watch your bank account crow steady doing nothing.
(2017) I disagree. Most of the crowdfunded projects show very little innovations compared to traditionally funded MMORPGs (EVE Online, TERA, ArcheAge, BDO, TSW, DFO, etc.). In the opposite, I think they're often just recreating old games with a few new mechanics that often already exist in other games.
Star Citizen and Elite: Dangerous are the big exceptions I guess, but it's probably more due to their massive funding and their genre (space sims) than the fact they've been crowdfunded.
If anything, I believe crowdfunding generally hinders innovation, because with so little money, the studios barely have enough dev resources to pull off new and complex systems.
We often hear the studios claiming that their crowdfunded game is so innovative that publishers won't take the risk to fund it, or that they will lose creative control over the project, but the main reasons I guess are: 1) publishers rarely want to fund some remakes of old games that caters to a small, nostalgic audience because it's financially very risky 2) crowdfunding is free money with little obligations to deliver anything.
Not some but all.
Chronicles of Elyria and Saga of Lucimia are the only remaining contestants. o,o
So Krage, what do you do? You work with Game Devs?
Related to this topic: I'm working on a game right now, its in open beta. Not exactly an action MMO, more like Astro Empires or OGame. I've had 1000 people sign up. About 100 people playing it right now. Which sounds impressive considering other ACTUAL MMOs have zero players
http://baronsofthegalaxy.com/
I had a small kickstarter, made like $3000, enough to pay artists. I agree with Krage when it comes to "noobness". I've been toying with this game for years. I honestly thought I would of been ready to launch like 6 months ago but its been steadily getting closer. Only a handful of features/fixes remaining and I hope to go live in a couple months.
I'm just one guy with a small project (which hopefully EXPLODES!). I can imagine a larger project with a group of developers and several moving parts can get bogged down. Seemingly simple features need a dozen other pieces to work and nothing ever goes completely bug free.
I think the real time sink is when you play the game with others and realize there is something wrong and part of the game needs a revamp and six more features need to be expanded on to make it work. It goes around for months but eventually settles on something cool.In a big project its probably a lot harder to make shifts like that or they realize that the game they are making is fundamentally crap and give up.
Crowdfunding was a big help, motivational if anything else. A lot of "fans" out there validating the hard work you put into it. A lot of people are willing to pay just to see something new and innovative come to life. I hope that happens more often
http://baronsofthegalaxy.com/ An MMO game I created, solo. It's live now and absolutely free to play!
Imagine having all of those people under one roof + Smed & C&C guy will be a all star line-up and all the counsel for Amazon games he'll ever need.
Another thing is, considering Star Citizen now uses Lumberyard and it seems to be their engine's flagship for now, I bet Amazon will make sure CIG has enough funding to ship a viable product.
Out of 29 projects, 9 cancelled/stalled, 5 launched and 15 are still in development.
5 projects that I'm confident will release in 2021-2022, in no particular order:
- Crowfall
- Camelot Unchained
- Dual Universe
- Gloria Victis
- Project Gorgon
CF, GV and Project Gorgon seem to be feature complete at this point, so balancing, fixes and polish are expected until launch afaik. DU and CU still have a lot of work ahead, but the progress done is huge so I'm pretty confident it's not so far away.They must be very close to launch though.
(I removed the original ETA from the OP.)
It may seem grim at first glance but in a few years I guess most of the projects still in development will have launched (hopefully). Also, out of 5 released MMORPGs, there are very successful projects (Elite: Dangerous and Albion Online) and SOTA has sold +200K of copies on Steam.
Project:Gorgon had been playable for quite some time before it came on Steam, but there are very few working on it and I doubt they will consider it ready to leave early access any time soon.
There is still plenty to do compared to many early titles though so if one doesn't mind the rough aesthetics, clunky interface, and oddly low performance in the town of Serbule, it's worth a look.
It did, but floundered since. The game has some interesting elements but enough issues otherwise that I eventually gave up on it, for now at least.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
---------------
Cmon don't act like kickstarters/crowdfunded did anything to progress the genre. We got phrases to overexaggerate mechanics in the game(like Sega's Blast processing) Most are dumbed down to the point of mobile game levels or grossly exaggerating ideas and barely have core concepts down(SC). None have innovated anything except for removing the middle man and getting to pocket money without retribution. All we have are ideas and dreams that we paid for or empty husk indie games in perpetual EA.
MurderHerd