I think one of the big issues with crowdfunding is that the developers have to spend an astronomical amount of time just interacting with the community, releasing updates, user stories, live streams, etc. That surely drains a lot of resources.
Is nice that you're making excuses for them, but no, they not only don't have to do ALL of that (and they don't either), but they also don't have to do that daily. Nothing about updates is astronomical. None of them do live streams. Developers don't create user stories, users do. Updates can be done on a weekly/monthly basis as well. A weekly/monthly update with maybe an hour here or there to respond to community questions is not a big deal.
francis_baud said: I think one of the big issues with crowdfunding is that the developers have to spend an astronomical amount of time just interacting with the community, releasing updates, user stories, live streams, etc. That surely drains a lot of resources.
Is nice that you're making excuses for them, but no, they not only don't have to do ALL of that (and they don't either), but they also don't have to do that daily. Nothing about updates is astronomical. None of them do live streams. Developers don't create user stories, users do. Updates can be done on a weekly/monthly basis as well. A weekly/monthly update with maybe an hour here or there to respond to community questions is not a big deal.
Most of them actually do livestreams. The biggest issue for crowdfunding studios is needing to keep a community engaged while they are building a company and creating their games.
Since most of them were crowdfunded because they aim to bring something new to the market that means they have to make it happen from scratch. Which means figuring out how to develop the technology needed themselves. R&D (research & development) is highly costly and time consuming and rely on a lot of skunk work that doesn't necessarily translate into something palpable to showcase the community right away. Some tech can take literally years of trial and error to get "right".
I think one of the big issues with crowdfunding is that the developers have to spend an astronomical amount of time just interacting with the community, releasing updates, user stories, live streams, etc. That surely drains a lot of resources.
Is nice that you're making excuses for them, but no, they not only don't have to do ALL of that (and they don't either), but they also don't have to do that daily. Nothing about updates is astronomical. None of them do live streams. Developers don't create user stories, users do. Updates can be done on a weekly/monthly basis as well. A weekly/monthly update with maybe an hour here or there to respond to community questions is not a big deal.
I'll talk about the two studios I know the most, CSE and ACE.
CSE for years had daily live stream that last for hours, plus one "end of the week" live stream with the head of the studio (or designer/producer/engineer), plus a weekly lengthy update, monthly newsletter, Discord chats, Twitter and Facebook updates, forums news and posts, website news/screenshots, plus an up-to-date user stories, and appearances on MassivelyOP, reddit, mmorpg.com, Dragon's Con 2015 & 2016, etc.
ACE for years had twice a week updates, forum posts, development videos, art videos, monthly Q&A, Kickstarter updates, monthly newsletter, daily tweets and Facebook posts, A Murder of Crows series, Discord chat, screenshots and artworks sections updated, Gamescom 2017, 12-hours livestream, reddit AMA, etc.
As long as Pantheon and Ashes are doing okay--I'm happy.
I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure Pantheon has been in trouble for awhile now. Too heads moving around for thr worse, losing their production, not meaning their own deadlines or even commenting on them.
I think one of the big issues with crowdfunding is that the developers have to spend an astronomical amount of time just interacting with the community, releasing updates, user stories, live streams, etc. That surely drains a lot of resources.
Is nice that you're making excuses for them, but no, they not only don't have to do ALL of that (and they don't either), but they also don't have to do that daily. Nothing about updates is astronomical. None of them do live streams. Developers don't create user stories, users do. Updates can be done on a weekly/monthly basis as well. A weekly/monthly update with maybe an hour here or there to respond to community questions is not a big deal.
Perhaps it isn't about what they have to do, but what they feel they should do.
The fact that CoH shutdown, then comes back before the successors even release their games must be a reality check for them. It is like those folks who jokingly said City of Heroes had a better chance of coming back than one of these projects releasing. It happened though lol.
Those superhero mmo were too ambitious. They wanted to recreate an out
of date mmo, but that out of date mmo is currently live once again. Not
only that, we are talking about a 3D open world title.
The open world superhero formula is a proven failure. History shows this. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over, and over expecting a different result...How insane are the people watching others be insane, but follow their path anyway?
A 2D beat em up style superhero mmo with character customization would thrive in my opinion. It is cheaper, and more accessible. Anyone can pick it up and play.
Someone has to change up the game. These numerous open world superhero mmo can fail only so many times before someone tries something new.
I think one of the big issues with crowdfunding is that the developers have to spend an astronomical amount of time just interacting with the community, releasing updates, user stories, live streams, etc. That surely drains a lot of resources.
Is nice that you're making excuses for them, but no, they not only don't have to do ALL of that (and they don't either), but they also don't have to do that daily. Nothing about updates is astronomical. None of them do live streams. Developers don't create user stories, users do. Updates can be done on a weekly/monthly basis as well. A weekly/monthly update with maybe an hour here or there to respond to community questions is not a big deal.
I'll talk about the two studios I know the most, CSE and ACE.
CSE for years had daily live stream that last for hours, plus one "end of the week" live stream with the head of the studio (or designer/producer/engineer), plus a weekly lengthy update, monthly newsletter, Discord chats, Twitter and Facebook updates, forums news and posts, website news/screenshots, plus an up-to-date user stories, and appearances on MassivelyOP, reddit, mmorpg.com, Dragon's Con 2015 & 2016, etc.
ACE for years had twice a week updates, forum posts, development videos, art videos, monthly Q&A, Kickstarter updates, monthly newsletter, daily tweets and Facebook posts, A Murder of Crows series, Discord chat, screenshots and artworks sections updated, Gamescom 2017, 12-hours livestream, reddit AMA, etc.
Welp, guess we know why their games are still not done, wasted too much time on live streaming and other such fluff.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The fact that CoH shutdown, then comes back before the successors even release their games must be a reality check for them. It is like those folks who jokingly said City of Heroes had a better chance of coming back than one of these projects releasing. It happened though lol.
Those superhero mmo were too ambitious. They wanted to recreate an out
of date mmo, but that out of date mmo is currently live once again. Not
only that, we are talking about a 3D open world title.
The open world superhero formula is a proven failure. History shows this. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over, and over expecting a different result...How insane are the people watching others be insane, but follow their path anyway?
A 2D beat em up style superhero mmo with character customization would thrive in my opinion. It is cheaper, and more accessible. Anyone can pick it up and play.
Someone has to change up the game. These numerous open world superhero mmo can fail only so many times before someone tries something new.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The fact that CoH shutdown, then comes back before the successors even release their games must be a reality check for them. It is like those folks who jokingly said City of Heroes had a better chance of coming back than one of these projects releasing. It happened though lol.
Those superhero mmo were too ambitious. They wanted to recreate an out
of date mmo, but that out of date mmo is currently live once again. Not
only that, we are talking about a 3D open world title.
The open world superhero formula is a proven failure. History shows this. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over, and over expecting a different result...How insane are the people watching others be insane, but follow their path anyway?
A 2D beat em up style superhero mmo with character customization would thrive in my opinion. It is cheaper, and more accessible. Anyone can pick it up and play.
Someone has to change up the game. These numerous open world superhero mmo can fail only so many times before someone tries something new.
Not sure a 2D beat-erm-up is going to satisfy my need for a Supers MMO. You are right it has been tried before but compared to fantasy themed or even Sci-Fi there have been hardly any Supers MMO's made. The need is so great that fans brought CoH back!
Good to see new posters giving us something to think about.
The fact that CoH shutdown, then comes back before the successors even release their games must be a reality check for them. It is like those folks who jokingly said City of Heroes had a better chance of coming back than one of these projects releasing. It happened though lol.
Those superhero mmo were too ambitious. They wanted to recreate an out
of date mmo, but that out of date mmo is currently live once again. Not
only that, we are talking about a 3D open world title.
The open world superhero formula is a proven failure. History shows this. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over, and over expecting a different result...How insane are the people watching others be insane, but follow their path anyway?
A 2D beat em up style superhero mmo with character customization would thrive in my opinion. It is cheaper, and more accessible. Anyone can pick it up and play.
Someone has to change up the game. These numerous open world superhero mmo can fail only so many times before someone tries something new.
At the time those projects started CoH wasn't widely available and there was no reason to believe it would be. If not for the leak it would still be available to only a select few.
The spiritual successors still remain important as there is no telling if or when NCSoft might stop playing nice, so it's better to have eggs in other baskets to fall back on.
Superhero MMORPGs aren't a proven failure. They have comparatively niche appeal, but of the three released to date two are still being offered commercially and the one not is avidly supported nonetheless.
It's not a path of insanity. There is money to be had. They may not be market juggernauts, but they are profitable. Even CoH was profitable before closing down, just not to the degree NCSoft wanted. A company more modest in expectation could have kept it running successfully. After all, it is widely considered to be the best of the three and the other two are still around.
If something else were to be offered instead, I'd rather have something like Marvel Heroes with an original setting instead and character customization. That was plenty accessible and there is a built in audience as many still miss that game, and the genre is pretty popular at the moment as well.
I didn't know any 2d beam 'em up MMOs were thriving, but there are a few around so maybe they are more popular than I think. That isn't something I would have much interest in but I suppose it would appeal to some.
The fact that CoH shutdown, then comes back before the successors even release their games must be a reality check for them. It is like those folks who jokingly said City of Heroes had a better chance of coming back than one of these projects releasing. It happened though lol.
Those superhero mmo were too ambitious. They wanted to recreate an out
of date mmo, but that out of date mmo is currently live once again. Not
only that, we are talking about a 3D open world title.
The open world superhero formula is a proven failure. History shows this. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over, and over expecting a different result...How insane are the people watching others be insane, but follow their path anyway?
A 2D beat em up style superhero mmo with character customization would thrive in my opinion. It is cheaper, and more accessible. Anyone can pick it up and play.
Someone has to change up the game. These numerous open world superhero mmo can fail only so many times before someone tries something new.
Not sure a 2D beat-erm-up is going to satisfy my need for a Supers MMO. You are right it has been tried before but compared to fantasy themed or even Sci-Fi there have been hardly any Supers MMO's made. The need is so great that fans brought CoH back!
Good to see new posters giving us something to think about.
Unless there is some secret project by a major developer gets unveiled there likely won't be anything new in superhero MMORPGs for awhile, unless Ship of Heroes is getting close.
The City of Titans character generator is improving, as is moving about in the environment after, but it still has a long way to go. Valiance Online is in a rougher state aesthetically, but is minimally playable.
I haven't been tracking Ship of Heroes much at all, but from a couple of videos I saw it seemed the most reminiscent of CoH. It also seemed the furthest along, so maybe it will be the first successor out of the gate.
You make it sound like AAA games don't delay, stall or get cancelled. Sure, it probably takes longer to make an MMO if you don't get the proper funding, but what is the alternative to that? A completed game that is absolute bureaucratic garbage? Most publishers only care about return on investment. They don't give a rats ass about a game being fun anymore. All they see is, how can we make the most money with the least amount of effort.
If I added AAA games with publishers most likely there would be delays too. And in the contrary, some crowdfunded games released with little or no delay (Albion Online, Elite: Dangerous). So I guess it really depends on how the studio is managing the development, how they're interacting with the community and a couple other factors.
For sure if a studio is busy creating & polishing multiple testing environments over the years (as it's often seen in crowdfunded MMOs) rather than creating THE game, then naturally delays ensue.
Comments
I didn't know City of Titans was in BETA! Where's the FANFARE! Hurray!
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
CSE for years had daily live stream that last for hours, plus one "end of the week" live stream with the head of the studio (or designer/producer/engineer), plus a weekly lengthy update, monthly newsletter, Discord chats, Twitter and Facebook updates, forums news and posts, website news/screenshots, plus an up-to-date user stories, and appearances on MassivelyOP, reddit, mmorpg.com, Dragon's Con 2015 & 2016, etc.
ACE for years had twice a week updates, forum posts, development videos, art videos, monthly Q&A, Kickstarter updates, monthly newsletter, daily tweets and Facebook posts, A Murder of Crows series, Discord chat, screenshots and artworks sections updated, Gamescom 2017, 12-hours livestream, reddit AMA, etc.
So far as I know the only thing available for CoT is a costume creator that lets you run around an environment one you're completed the costume.
I'm a backer and receive regular emails regarding the development progress and have not been notified of the game going to beta.
I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure Pantheon has been in trouble for awhile now. Too heads moving around for thr worse, losing their production, not meaning their own deadlines or even commenting on them.
It seems like they're still in Alpha =/
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Good to see new posters giving us something to think about.
At the time those projects started CoH wasn't widely available and there was no reason to believe it would be. If not for the leak it would still be available to only a select few.
The spiritual successors still remain important as there is no telling if or when NCSoft might stop playing nice, so it's better to have eggs in other baskets to fall back on.
Superhero MMORPGs aren't a proven failure. They have comparatively niche appeal, but of the three released to date two are still being offered commercially and the one not is avidly supported nonetheless.
It's not a path of insanity. There is money to be had. They may not be market juggernauts, but they are profitable. Even CoH was profitable before closing down, just not to the degree NCSoft wanted. A company more modest in expectation could have kept it running successfully. After all, it is widely considered to be the best of the three and the other two are still around.
If something else were to be offered instead, I'd rather have something like Marvel Heroes with an original setting instead and character customization. That was plenty accessible and there is a built in audience as many still miss that game, and the genre is pretty popular at the moment as well.
I didn't know any 2d beam 'em up MMOs were thriving, but there are a few around so maybe they are more popular than I think. That isn't something I would have much interest in but I suppose it would appeal to some.
Unless there is some secret project by a major developer gets unveiled there likely won't be anything new in superhero MMORPGs for awhile, unless Ship of Heroes is getting close.
The City of Titans character generator is improving, as is moving about in the environment after, but it still has a long way to go. Valiance Online is in a rougher state aesthetically, but is minimally playable.
I haven't been tracking Ship of Heroes much at all, but from a couple of videos I saw it seemed the most reminiscent of CoH. It also seemed the furthest along, so maybe it will be the first successor out of the gate.
For sure if a studio is busy creating & polishing multiple testing environments over the years (as it's often seen in crowdfunded MMOs) rather than creating THE game, then naturally delays ensue.