Ok so putting what the name MMO means as a definition (as Destiny does not fit it). Lets look at what an MMO needs to fit that bill.
Quests: Quests imo have always been a major portion of every MMO design. "But desinty put "quests and bounties in" Not the same in the least bit. In almost every MMO even daily or repeatable quests drove the world or story in some way, randomly getting a mission to kill X amount of enemies in an area we were supposed to have cleared and secured ages ago does not drive the story or world. They did end up putting more actual quest material in Destiny later on but it was way to late at that point.
Dungeons: Yes Destiny has strikes, yes they appeal to the story and have a point, So +1 for Desinty getting this portion right.
Raids: Yep they got this point right as well, in a manner of speaking. as I will get to in a minute, Raids are supposed to be 1 part of endgame play for progression. not the ONLY way to truly progress.
Endgame content: Every MMO that has no question on whether it is an MMO or not has a multitude of content at Endgame to progress your character aside from Raiding. For example: GW2 has Raids/Fractals(for those that don't know look it up, they are awesome)/ PvP ( that gives actual endgame worthy gear)/ Crafting/ Dungeons.
Loot Progression: This is the one thing destiny is sorely lacking. Yes you get "loot" in lots of the content, but there is no balanced progression to it. Never in any MMO that I have played have I spent weeks getting random drops that I have to decipher to figure out that it is the same or worse that the pieces I already have.
Crafting: Never have I seen an MMO, that is beyond question an MMO, that did not have a proper crafting system. Now as much as I hate crafting this is really an integral part of the MMO genre.
Massive Player Interaction: I could list a book on what this means, but to put it simply, Interacting with players on a Massive scale beyond that of small party groups for instanced content. Im sorry but getting together in 1 or 2 social zones for 10min before queuing up for some instanced content is not good enough. The Ability to Trade, get together is massive groups for random shenanigans in a world environment, and honestly being able to chat with people that aren't in a party with you all are just a few examples of what Massive Player Interaction entails.
Guilds: OK yes destiny has "Clans" but they dont mean anything, you have a clan of 60 people but only groups of 3-6 can do anything, there are no benefits of the Clans other than being able to bug people about grouping up with you. I know not all Guilds in MMO's give some sort of XP bonus or other such benefits, but there is more to a guild than running some dungeons or the Raid, the pure social interaction alone is a major plus. Something I feel Destiny's "Clans" were sorely lacking. Grant it I will give them a pass on the many console restrictions they have.
Basically to top it off, does Destiny have some MMO Elements? Yes it does. Does it meet enough criteria to be called a true MMO? No it does not. Throw a social zone into the Borderlands games, does that make it an MMO now? I mean it has dungeons and Raids and quests and story and loot. The answer is no it does not.
I won't be playing Destiny 2. The game can hardly be called an MMO. More like an FPS with other people running around. Little to no communication between people. Frankly there is little need for other people. The game quickly became boring.
Destiny is not an MMO for the simple fact that it doesn't feel like an MMO... All those other players in the shared hubs, and yet there is no way to interact with them; <snip>
So just like all the other WoW players on servers you cannot interact with - and the only thing making WoW an mmo is the LFG tool?
Houston we have .... !
??? except in WoW you can type /w [playername] and actually talk to anyone on the same server... hell, even /say Hello! works for anyone around you... in Destiny you can't even do that much; all those other players around you, and it wouldn't matter if it was 10 or 10000, they are effecitively little more than moving wallpaper.
And why does this matter? Because the main thing that seperates an MMO (i.e. 'Massively' multiplayer) game from other multiplayer games (such as Battlefield or Quake) is the ability for large groups of players to communicate and interact in a dynamic manner. Destiny totally lacks this.
PS. Just because all people do in WoW is sit in one spot and do LFG runs doesn't mean that they can't go out into the world and interact with others (that's just the poor design of WoW)... and if WoW got ride of all it's chat channels and relied on third party services to create pre-made groups I wouldn't call it an MMO either.
I think you're illustrating the point that's being made here masterfully. You've, essentially, boiled down the MMORPG to a singular feature, the ability to chat with others. I'm not going to say you're right or wrong, but what I will say is that I think that social features are definitely a huge contributor to the makeup of an MMORPG. This is also, possibly, the reason that MMORPGs have been in a decline (the shift of focus in MMOs from a social experience to a solo experience).
However, it also serves to prove the article title. In fact, many MMORPG developers should take a good, hard look at Destiny, The Division, etc. because they do a lot of MMO features MUCH better than many MMOs do. Despite not having the social features, the focus of Destiny is to bring friends together. The barrier to entry for MMOs is the grind. Both Destiny and The Division blew this grind out of the water and Bungie, specifically, has said that their focus is creating a game which makes it easy for friends to pick up and play together. What a fucking concept, right? So instead of a 100+ hour grind just so you can play with your friends, you now have a game where you can pick up and play, start to finish, in like 20 hours and you're playing with your friends. There is still a grind for gear, but the experience itself isn't inaccessible to new players. So, yes, there is plenty that MMOs SHOULD and NEED to take note of from Destiny, and I'm sure Destiny 2.
@SBFord I actually did and he said it was an mmo so what exactly are you talking about? I'm not insulting anything, I'm stating the fact that it is not an mmo which the creators of the game have even said.
MMORPG
massively multiplayer online role-playing game: any story-driven online video game in which a player, taking on the persona of a character in a virtual or fantasy world, interacts with a large number of other players.
It fits the definition. Your personal opinion of what an MMO is means nothing.
I'm so sure the person that authored that entry has ever played an MMO before.
So to me it all depends on the gameplay. I understand this is a hub game, but when you leave the hub is it to play around in open world zones like Skyforge? Or is it all instanced like Guild Wars 1? Are you really playing with a "large number of other players"? Or are you playing with a few in an instance?
When I log into Destiny 2, will I run into hundreds or even thousands of others? Will I see my friends when I tell them to meet me at x location or will I have to switch servers/instances? These are the first 2 questions I ask when I see someone mention Massively Multiplayer Online and not just Multiplayer Online.
How can something be good for the genre when we don't even know what IT is yet?
Bungie avoided the word "MMO" like it was an STD before it released. Was THAT good for the genre?
Now it's magically good for the genre after they've decided to grace us lowly PC plebs with the sequel. How about ask the developer some hard questions like "Why the change of heart on PC?" or maybe "Why were the letters MMO so fiercely avoided earlier?"
MMORPG.com may not do the paid shill thing, but they sure AF fumble at quelling suspicions.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm all for calling Destiny games MMOs as long as that stands for "Minimally" multiplayer online game.
Now we're on the same page.
Or if it stands for Mature. Every time I pick up an MMO and spend some time in it I start to feel like, "Huh! Wow! Maybe this is it! Maybe we've gotten past that point of... " and then it happens! Someone types into General Anal [Impale] which sets off the inevitable half hour worth of head-shaking. Yes, we understand, you could put Anal in front of nearly any skill and it's hilarious. I don't think I can put my finger on when it all started, but I definitely expected it would be short-lived. Nope! It's actually lasted longer than the majority of MMOs.
So if that means that I only need to hear from my friends, so be it At least then I can selectively filter the list of people who I associate with.
I'm all for calling Destiny games MMOs as long as that stands for "Minimally" multiplayer online game.
Now we're on the same page.
Or if it stands for Mature. Every time I pick up an MMO and spend some time in it I start to feel like, "Huh! Wow! Maybe this is it! Maybe we've gotten past that point of... " and then it happens! Someone types into General Anal [Impale] which sets off the inevitable half hour worth of head-shaking. Yes, we understand, you could put Anal in front of nearly any skill and it's hilarious. I don't think I can put my finger on when it all started, but I definitely expected it would be short-lived. Nope! It's actually lasted longer than the majority of MMOs.
So if that means that I only need to hear from my friends, so be it At least then I can selectively filter the list of people who I associate with.
I've never actually heard of this, not in my current game fortunately. (no global chat is probably why)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm just really burnt out on the hype machine of upcoming games. We hardly know anything about this game aside from its predecessor and its name.
I played Destiny 1 beta on the ps3 and it was "meh" to me. I cant say its a bad game but I didnt care for it. That being said i have a long history of online gaming, so its pretty hard for me to be "wowed" by anything.
I played UO for the years it was hot and i played Planetside the original when it had full servers. So I expect a lot.
I dont care if someone wants to call Destiny or Dest. 2 an mmo I personally want to know if the PS4 version of destiny 2 will support a keyboard and mouse out the box?
I can forget about any of these versions being cross platform. Every ones stingy and wants to keep their players on their platforms even though that diminishes the player experience. Heck i played Quake 3 arena on my sega dreamcast against quake 3 players on the pc. Huge fun.
Anyway. thats my deal. I dont preorder because imo thats just stupid. I was stupid for preordering SWTOR and i learned my darn lesson. Im not going to miss out on anything by waiting till launch day and seeing what people playing it live are saying.
I saved my bro in law from the misery that is the No Mans Sky preorder.
Other stuff to play. Hype is just that hot air. If hype had substance every kid and his parents would be playing SWTOR non stop. most hyped piece of crap. So much newer than World of Warcraft but plays and looks like its 10 years older.
Ha ha ha... Destiny is an MMO... HA HA HA! Hilarious! Best pre-April fools' article!
Why the serious comments, peepz?! I can only see this is a joke, because Bill owns a site called MMORPG.com and is supposedly a very knowledgeable person on the matter. And so are quite a few people who have played mmos and most game genres and know what MMO means without even googling it
Still laughing, though... 3 player "strikes" and 6 player "raids".. LMAO! Very large number of people. SIMULTANEOUSLY!!! Phew... need to catch my breath. And then I think there was someone who mentioned great HUB interactions (there is no chat, except party voice chat) so.. EMOTES IT IS LoL... and occasional inspects and random friends requests... really cracks me up!!!
Maybe we can get a Diablo 3 MMO article when Diablo 4 gets announced - would be awesome!
Pfuuu. That was fun. Unless it wasn't a joke, and then it's an insult to the website, the MMO gaming community and well... gamers in general, lol. Oh massive multiplayer online, you,...
Is reading comprehension still part of the school curriculum these days?
It's the age of the dumb as fuck and aggressively proud of it.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
One of the main ways I can see Destiny 2 being good for the MMO genre, is by hopefully giving unaccustomed players of the genre a craving for something more.
You all missed the point. Whether it's an MMO or not doesn't matter. What matters is that it will inevitably bring more development into persistent online worlds (MMO). But keep arguing over the meaning of the acronym. We haven't done that enough these last 15 years.
What type of development? That's the issue.
It's not the meaning of the acronym, it's the meaning of the gaming and environment that holds games true to the acronym.
So a group of developers who avoided "MMO" and PCs like a pissy park bench before are now good for the MMO genre on the sequel. Pardon me for scoffing. We'll see.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Is that bald blue guy voiced by Khary Payton from Walking Dead? (The black long haired fellow that plays King Ezekiel). I was just watching the season finale last night and thought: Damn.... this guy has to get a voice gig with all his Shakespeare in the park monologues!
reminder...the game is already god before it is even in our hands,yep that is a good idea to carry forward with. "persistent"Ok so let's say the IDEA of a persistent world is great,it is not and everyone is doing it now,no matter let's just say it is the most amazing thing since sliced cheese.
Until we actually see what the Destiny team does,HOW they implement the persistent idea,we cannot even remotely weigh in to say it is GOOD FOR GAMING.We pass judgment on the idea after we see what they do with the game design. Ask Angry Joe how he feels about D1?In his recent video he states that he thinks they are pissed at him and will likely not give him a preview copy for D2,well good for him,no sellout,we need less sellout advertising and more honest reviews.His PRE OPINION?He says he is mildly optimistic but skeptical after seeing D1,he needs to see what they do before jumping on board and that is a realistic stand to take.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
reminder...the game is already god before it is even in our hands,yep that is a good idea to carry forward with. "persistent"Ok so let's say the IDEA of a persistent world is great,it is not and everyone is doing it now,no matter let's just say it is the most amazing thing since sliced cheese.
Until we actually see what the Destiny team does,HOW they implement the persistent idea,we cannot even remotely weigh in to say it is GOOD FOR GAMING.We pass judgment on the idea after we see what they do with the game design. Ask Angry Joe how he feels about D1?In his recent video he states that he thinks they are pissed at him and will likely not give him a preview copy for D2,well good for him,no sellout,we need less sellout advertising and more honest reviews.His PRE OPINION?He says he is mildly optimistic but skeptical after seeing D1,he needs to see what they do before jumping on board and that is a realistic stand to take.
Angry Joe is not someone I'd trust when it comes to opinions - he flops more than a politican during campaign season. No one called a game god, either. Wiz, you need to read the article again.
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
I'm willing to give this game a try, Destiny really was a fun game with randoms or friends.Like all MMO's you get to the loot grind and running the same content over and over. I'm excited to see what they can do with this one since it doesn't have the last gen holding the game back.
Comments
Quests: Quests imo have always been a major portion of every MMO design. "But desinty put "quests and bounties in" Not the same in the least bit. In almost every MMO even daily or repeatable quests drove the world or story in some way, randomly getting a mission to kill X amount of enemies in an area we were supposed to have cleared and secured ages ago does not drive the story or world. They did end up putting more actual quest material in Destiny later on but it was way to late at that point.
Dungeons: Yes Destiny has strikes, yes they appeal to the story and have a point, So +1 for Desinty getting this portion right.
Raids: Yep they got this point right as well, in a manner of speaking. as I will get to in a minute, Raids are supposed to be 1 part of endgame play for progression. not the ONLY way to truly progress.
Endgame content: Every MMO that has no question on whether it is an MMO or not has a multitude of content at Endgame to progress your character aside from Raiding. For example: GW2 has Raids/Fractals(for those that don't know look it up, they are awesome)/ PvP ( that gives actual endgame worthy gear)/ Crafting/ Dungeons.
Loot Progression: This is the one thing destiny is sorely lacking. Yes you get "loot" in lots of the content, but there is no balanced progression to it. Never in any MMO that I have played have I spent weeks getting random drops that I have to decipher to figure out that it is the same or worse that the pieces I already have.
Crafting: Never have I seen an MMO, that is beyond question an MMO, that did not have a proper crafting system. Now as much as I hate crafting this is really an integral part of the MMO genre.
Massive Player Interaction: I could list a book on what this means, but to put it simply, Interacting with players on a Massive scale beyond that of small party groups for instanced content. Im sorry but getting together in 1 or 2 social zones for 10min before queuing up for some instanced content is not good enough. The Ability to Trade, get together is massive groups for random shenanigans in a world environment, and honestly being able to chat with people that aren't in a party with you all are just a few examples of what Massive Player Interaction entails.
Guilds: OK yes destiny has "Clans" but they dont mean anything, you have a clan of 60 people but only groups of 3-6 can do anything, there are no benefits of the Clans other than being able to bug people about grouping up with you. I know not all Guilds in MMO's give some sort of XP bonus or other such benefits, but there is more to a guild than running some dungeons or the Raid, the pure social interaction alone is a major plus. Something I feel Destiny's "Clans" were sorely lacking. Grant it I will give them a pass on the many console restrictions they have.
Basically to top it off, does Destiny have some MMO Elements? Yes it does. Does it meet enough criteria to be called a true MMO? No it does not. Throw a social zone into the Borderlands games, does that make it an MMO now? I mean it has dungeons and Raids and quests and story and loot. The answer is no it does not.
I think you're illustrating the point that's being made here masterfully. You've, essentially, boiled down the MMORPG to a singular feature, the ability to chat with others. I'm not going to say you're right or wrong, but what I will say is that I think that social features are definitely a huge contributor to the makeup of an MMORPG. This is also, possibly, the reason that MMORPGs have been in a decline (the shift of focus in MMOs from a social experience to a solo experience).
However, it also serves to prove the article title. In fact, many MMORPG developers should take a good, hard look at Destiny, The Division, etc. because they do a lot of MMO features MUCH better than many MMOs do. Despite not having the social features, the focus of Destiny is to bring friends together. The barrier to entry for MMOs is the grind. Both Destiny and The Division blew this grind out of the water and Bungie, specifically, has said that their focus is creating a game which makes it easy for friends to pick up and play together. What a fucking concept, right? So instead of a 100+ hour grind just so you can play with your friends, you now have a game where you can pick up and play, start to finish, in like 20 hours and you're playing with your friends. There is still a grind for gear, but the experience itself isn't inaccessible to new players. So, yes, there is plenty that MMOs SHOULD and NEED to take note of from Destiny, and I'm sure Destiny 2.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I'm so sure the person that authored that entry has ever played an MMO before.
So to me it all depends on the gameplay. I understand this is a hub game, but when you leave the hub is it to play around in open world zones like Skyforge? Or is it all instanced like Guild Wars 1? Are you really playing with a "large number of other players"? Or are you playing with a few in an instance?
Bungie avoided the word "MMO" like it was an STD before it released. Was THAT good for the genre?
Now it's magically good for the genre after they've decided to grace us lowly PC plebs with the sequel. How about ask the developer some hard questions like "Why the change of heart on PC?" or maybe "Why were the letters MMO so fiercely avoided earlier?"
MMORPG.com may not do the paid shill thing, but they sure AF fumble at quelling suspicions.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Now we're on the same page.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hype train -> Reality
Or if it stands for Mature. Every time I pick up an MMO and spend some time in it I start to feel like, "Huh! Wow! Maybe this is it! Maybe we've gotten past that point of... " and then it happens! Someone types into General Anal [Impale] which sets off the inevitable half hour worth of head-shaking. Yes, we understand, you could put Anal in front of nearly any skill and it's hilarious. I don't think I can put my finger on when it all started, but I definitely expected it would be short-lived. Nope! It's actually lasted longer than the majority of MMOs.
So if that means that I only need to hear from my friends, so be it
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
I dunno what your talking about this looks like a party of 7's, 8's and 9's.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I played Destiny 1 beta on the ps3 and it was "meh" to me. I cant say its a bad game but I didnt care for it. That being said i have a long history of online gaming, so its pretty hard for me to be "wowed" by anything.
I played UO for the years it was hot and i played Planetside the original when it had full servers. So I expect a lot.
I dont care if someone wants to call Destiny or Dest. 2 an mmo I personally want to know if the PS4 version of destiny 2 will support a keyboard and mouse out the box?
I can forget about any of these versions being cross platform. Every ones stingy and wants to keep their players on their platforms even though that diminishes the player experience. Heck i played Quake 3 arena on my sega dreamcast against quake 3 players on the pc. Huge fun.
Anyway. thats my deal. I dont preorder because imo thats just stupid. I was stupid for preordering SWTOR and i learned my darn lesson. Im not going to miss out on anything by waiting till launch day and seeing what people playing it live are saying.
I saved my bro in law from the misery that is the No Mans Sky preorder.
Other stuff to play. Hype is just that hot air. If hype had substance every kid and his parents would be playing SWTOR non stop. most hyped piece of crap. So much newer than World of Warcraft but plays and looks like its 10 years older.
Why the serious comments, peepz?! I can only see this is a joke, because Bill owns a site called MMORPG.com and is supposedly a very knowledgeable person on the matter. And so are quite a few people who have played mmos and most game genres and know what MMO means without even googling it
Still laughing, though... 3 player "strikes" and 6 player "raids".. LMAO! Very large number of people. SIMULTANEOUSLY!!! Phew... need to catch my breath. And then I think there was someone who mentioned great HUB interactions (there is no chat, except party voice chat) so.. EMOTES IT IS LoL... and occasional inspects and random friends requests... really cracks me up!!!
Maybe we can get a Diablo 3 MMO article when Diablo 4 gets announced - would be awesome!
Pfuuu. That was fun. Unless it wasn't a joke, and then it's an insult to the website, the MMO gaming community and well... gamers in general, lol. Oh massive multiplayer online, you,...
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Mmm.... gai lan
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
It's not the meaning of the acronym, it's the meaning of the gaming and environment that holds games true to the acronym.
So a group of developers who avoided "MMO" and PCs like a pissy park bench before are now good for the MMO genre on the sequel. Pardon me for scoffing. We'll see.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
"persistent"Ok so let's say the IDEA of a persistent world is great,it is not and everyone is doing it now,no matter let's just say it is the most amazing thing since sliced cheese.
Until we actually see what the Destiny team does,HOW they implement the persistent idea,we cannot even remotely weigh in to say it is GOOD FOR GAMING.We pass judgment on the idea after we see what they do with the game design.
Ask Angry Joe how he feels about D1?In his recent video he states that he thinks they are pissed at him and will likely not give him a preview copy for D2,well good for him,no sellout,we need less sellout advertising and more honest reviews.His PRE OPINION?He says he is mildly optimistic but skeptical after seeing D1,he needs to see what they do before jumping on board and that is a realistic stand to take.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
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