---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (again quote box not working for me for some reason) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But thats the whole point we are trying to make: The act of gating a content, regardless behind what, is not a good thing from old schools mmo.
That's like making a old school 8bit platformer and focusing on bad controls. That's not the charm. That's the bad bit.
They could make it an engaging mechanic, regardless the way they chose to do so, instead of what we have now - - and keep the old school charm of it.
Of course it's a good thing. Without gating, also known as progression, there would be no reason to do anything. Everything in real life is gated. Without that framework, your achievements wouldn't mean shit.
The reasoning behind removal of progression is pure entitlement.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (again quote box not working for me for some reason) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But thats the whole point we are trying to make: The act of gating a content, regardless behind what, is not a good thing from old schools mmo.
That's like making a old school 8bit platformer and focusing on bad controls. That's not the charm. That's the bad bit.
They could make it an engaging mechanic, regardless the way they chose to do so, instead of what we have now - - and keep the old school charm of it.
Of course it's a good thing. Without gating, also known as progression, there would be no reason to do anything. Everything in real life is gated. Without that framework, your achievements wouldn't mean shit.
What do you mean by "no reason to do anything"? Are you playing to experience a world and to adventure or to check marks and pet yourself on your shoulder and tell how good boy you are once you complete a check mark?
I'm confused now.
How does changing gameplay to engage players results to "no reason" to do something?
It's pretty simple there, comrade. If everyone is entitled to do everything, it doesn't really mean much at that point, now does it?
Without a system of advancement in place, your achievements mean significantly less. It's not that hard to understand for those of us not subscribing to socialist doctrines.
And how does locking content prevent everyone to do everything if the requirements have no urgency or player skill behind it, just a check mark?
It seems to me that anyone can do that.
And second: I'm not socialist nor mocking me will improve your point.
Strawman. I never said player skill should not be involved. I'm not proposing anything as shallow as what you're suggesting.
You play the game, it simulates experience and knowledge (which can, at times be represented by checkmarks). With that, you gain access to new things. Whether it's levels or any other form of gating, that is what keeps people playing. It should require time, knowledge and skill of the player.
And whether you know it or not, you've been indoctrinated.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (again quote box not working for me for some reason) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But thats the whole point we are trying to make: The act of gating a content, regardless behind what, is not a good thing from old schools mmo.
That's like making a old school 8bit platformer and focusing on bad controls. That's not the charm. That's the bad bit.
They could make it an engaging mechanic, regardless the way they chose to do so, instead of what we have now - - and keep the old school charm of it.
Of course it's a good thing. Without gating, also known as progression, there would be no reason to do anything. Everything in real life is gated. Without that framework, your achievements wouldn't mean shit.
What do you mean by "no reason to do anything"? Are you playing to experience a world and to adventure or to check marks and pet yourself on your shoulder and tell how good boy you are once you complete a check mark?
I'm confused now.
How does changing gameplay to engage players results to "no reason" to do something?
It's pretty simple there, comrade. If everyone is entitled to do everything, it doesn't really mean much at that point, now does it?
Without a system of advancement in place, your achievements mean significantly less. It's not that hard to understand for those of us not subscribing to socialist doctrines.
I agree and disagree. I don't believe in gating. At all. But I do believe that player should be able to take on harder content.
It's not about being entitled to do everything, it's about having the chance to do anything and everything and you fail or succeed on your own merits.
It means more to be less powerful but to achieve greater things. The achievements should be about one's ability to surmount overwhelming adversity, not just about being the right level.
This is not to say I'm against leveling. I'm not. Love it actually. But I'm more for an open world and people can pick and choose their challenges and fail or succeed on their own merit.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Of course it's a good thing. Without gating, also known as progression, there would be no reason to do anything. Everything in real life is gated. Without that framework, your achievements wouldn't mean shit.
The reasoning behind removal of progression is pure entitlement.
That's a rather simplistic view of the point raised here. I don't want an entitlement, I want a feature that is truly dangerous and immersive, how is that an entitlement? I don't like to see the mechanic tied to a progression system at all, because I feel it would be more beneficial to game, group dynamics as well as socialization to always have to face it, as it creates more down time as well as more danger. It's a missed opportunity to add social features like camps to the group dynamic...
I think it cheapens the mechanic if it is used for a tiered system to eventually bypass the effects. Why turn immersive features into a grind or an annoyance for the sake of time consumption? That's what they had to do when they didn't have good gaming systems to simulate these effects, many games have proven working mechanics for that now.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
And how does locking content prevent everyone to do everything if the requirements have no urgency or player skill behind it, just a check mark?
It seems to me that anyone can do that.
And second: I'm not socialist nor mocking me will improve your point.
Strawman. I never said player skill should not be involved. I'm not proposing anything as shallow as what you're suggesting.
You play the game, it simulates experience and knowledge (which can, at times be represented by checkmarks). With that, you gain access to new things. Whether it's levels or any other form of gating, that is what keeps people playing. It should require time, knowledge and skill of the player.
And whether you know it or not, you've been indoctrinated.
Or you remove the gate and let people throw themselves against a brick wall all day if they want to, after all it's their time.
If anything, YOU are the one enforcing socialistic agendas upon the player-base.
"Big brother (government) knows best, you just stay over there until I tell you that you can come over here with us"
Or you remove the gate and let people throw themselves against a brick wall all day if they want to, after all it's their time.
If anything, YOU are the one enforcing socialistic agendas upon the player-base.
"Big brother (government) knows best, you just stay over there until I tell you that you can come over here with us"
Right. Any time you can't have it your way, it's big brother's fault. You're still arguing for entitlement, and you can't even see it.
No one is telling the player anything. It's up to the player to find a way to get across the bridge. Did you even watch the stream. You can throw yourself against that "wall" and try to get across any time you want. You just might find a way to get across it too without having the best acclimation item in every slot.
That philosophy is single-handedly responsible for destroying achievement in MMOs, and you're still championing it and you don't even realize it.
This is the first iteration of a feature. People need to chill out.
If it's the first iteration of a feature, why display it so prominently? To show how little they've accomplished? First impressions are important. I think the 'pre-pre-pre-alpha' and 'first iteration' language from developers are simply ways of saying "we're further behind that we'd like to admit" without upsetting the fans.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
This is the first iteration of a feature. People need to chill out.
If it's the first iteration of a feature, why display it so prominently? To show how little they've accomplished? First impressions are important. I think the 'pre-pre-pre-alpha' and 'first iteration' language from developers are simply ways of saying "we're further behind that we'd like to admit" without upsetting the fans.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (again quote box not working for me for some reason) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But thats the whole point we are trying to make: The act of gating a content, regardless behind what, is not a good thing from old schools mmo.
That's like making a old school 8bit platformer and focusing on bad controls. That's not the charm. That's the bad bit.
They could make it an engaging mechanic, regardless the way they chose to do so, instead of what we have now - - and keep the old school charm of it.
Of course it's a good thing. Without gating, also known as progression, there would be no reason to do anything. Everything in real life is gated. Without that framework, your achievements wouldn't mean shit.
What do you mean by "no reason to do anything"? Are you playing to experience a world and to adventure or to check marks and pet yourself on your shoulder and tell how good boy you are once you complete a check mark?
I'm confused now.
How does changing gameplay to engage players results to "no reason" to do something?
It's pretty simple there, comrade. If everyone is entitled to do everything, it doesn't really mean much at that point, now does it?
Without a system of advancement in place, your achievements mean significantly less. It's not that hard to understand for those of us not subscribing to socialist doctrines.
I agree and disagree. I don't believe in gating. At all. But I do believe that player should be able to take on harder content.
It's not about being entitled to do everything, it's about having the chance to do anything and everything and you fail or succeed on your own merits.
It means more to be less powerful but to achieve greater things. The achievements should be about one's ability to surmount overwhelming adversity, not just about being the right level.
This is not to say I'm against leveling. I'm not. Love it actually. But I'm more for an open world and people can pick and choose their challenges and fail or succeed on their own merit.
In an mmo, your merits are often items you've gained in previous tests of skill, knowledge and previous item advancement. It's not all about player skill, nor should it be, or the game becomes more about being a hero, than playing a hero. That is the nature of most games, particularly rpgs and mmorpgs.
Besides skill, time is the biggest source of merit. When you take time out of the equation, you're left with a game where progression is rigidly determined by skill. Wildstar has become a cautionary tale of what happens when you lean too heavily on player performance.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (again quote box not working for me for some reason) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But thats the whole point we are trying to make: The act of gating a content, regardless behind what, is not a good thing from old schools mmo.
That's like making a old school 8bit platformer and focusing on bad controls. That's not the charm. That's the bad bit.
They could make it an engaging mechanic, regardless the way they chose to do so, instead of what we have now - - and keep the old school charm of it.
Of course it's a good thing. Without gating, also known as progression, there would be no reason to do anything. Everything in real life is gated. Without that framework, your achievements wouldn't mean shit.
What do you mean by "no reason to do anything"? Are you playing to experience a world and to adventure or to check marks and pet yourself on your shoulder and tell how good boy you are once you complete a check mark?
I'm confused now.
How does changing gameplay to engage players results to "no reason" to do something?
It's pretty simple there, comrade. If everyone is entitled to do everything, it doesn't really mean much at that point, now does it?
Without a system of advancement in place, your achievements mean significantly less. It's not that hard to understand for those of us not subscribing to socialist doctrines.
I agree and disagree. I don't believe in gating. At all. But I do believe that player should be able to take on harder content.
It's not about being entitled to do everything, it's about having the chance to do anything and everything and you fail or succeed on your own merits.
It means more to be less powerful but to achieve greater things. The achievements should be about one's ability to surmount overwhelming adversity, not just about being the right level.
This is not to say I'm against leveling. I'm not. Love it actually. But I'm more for an open world and people can pick and choose their challenges and fail or succeed on their own merit.
In an mmo, your merits are often items you've gained in previous tests of skill, knowledge and previous item advancement. It's not all about player skill, nor should it be, or the game becomes more about being a hero, than playing a hero. That is the nature of most games, particularly rpgs and mmorpgs.
Besides skill, time is the biggest source of merit. When you take time out of the equation, you're left with a game where progression is rigidly determined by skill. Wildstar has become a cautionary tale of what happens when you lean too heavily on player performance.
Well that I disagree with. An mmo doesn't have to be "one thing'. Skill very well can be a factor if the game play is designed around that factor.
There isn't a law stating that skill can't be a deciding factor. Early games were more about the character, sure, but there is no reason why a game can't be designed with the actual player skill in mind.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If it's the first iteration of a feature, why display it so prominently? To show how little they've accomplished? First impressions are important. I think the 'pre-pre-pre-alpha' and 'first iteration' language from developers are simply ways of saying "we're further behind that we'd like to admit" without upsetting the fans.
If it's the first iteration of a feature, why display it so prominently? To show how little they've accomplished? First impressions are important. I think the 'pre-pre-pre-alpha' and 'first iteration' language from developers are simply ways of saying "we're further behind that we'd like to admit" without upsetting the fans.
Post edited by Distopia on
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
A few notes about the latest stream, good and bad.
Several times the devs said that mechanics needed to be play tested to see if it were viable and fun - Good, kill your darlings if they don't work (problem is of course the pressure from players who can make this impossible).
While talking about soloing, one said they were not designing specific solo classes but see how the players would find ways to use mechanics and skills to solo (some of the most loved eq mechanics were also found and refined this way) - Love this approach.
They will not prevent boxing by rules but by making a character require so much focus it will be impractical and inefficient to box - Thank you. We still have to see any of that as currently the combat is a very simple version of eq basics. Also, how to avoid the eq2 issue and combat being directed to much by those opportunities and chains, instead of flowing freely.
Disposition, a great idea which could lead to very interesting tactics. Conning for disposition with perception, disposition altering spells/abilities, advanced pulling using enemy disposition to your advantage and possibly other usage I haven't considered.
Acclimation, good idea on paper. The implementation of it however I am not a fan of, it is unnatural and gamey and sound like a forced idea; possibly a darling that needs to get killed and re-invented? I feel it is much more natural to incorperate acclimation with resists so it opens up the use of spells, potions, gear, or maybe acclimation gear to be added to normal gear (snow shoes, fur collar, warm underwear, fire proof boot extensions, etc).
Level adjustment aka mentoring. While I appreciate what it tries to do, I still straight hate it. In my opinion it removes a very important part of progression and being in touch with your character, it is very gamey and immersion breaking to me. I wish there were some better ways to get players with different levels together.
A few notes about the latest stream, good and bad.
Several times the devs said that mechanics needed to be play tested to see if it were viable and fun - Good, kill your darlings if they don't work (problem is of course the pressure from players who can make this impossible).
While talking about soloing, one said they were not designing specific solo classes but see how the players would find ways to use mechanics and skills to solo (some of the most loved eq mechanics were also found and refined this way) - Love this approach.
They will not prevent boxing by rules but by making a character require so much focus it will be impractical and inefficient to box - Thank you. We still have to see any of that as currently the combat is a very simple version of eq basics. Also, how to avoid the eq2 issue and combat being directed to much by those opportunities and chains, instead of flowing freely.
Disposition, a great idea which could lead to very interesting tactics. Conning for disposition with perception, disposition altering spells/abilities, advanced pulling using enemy disposition to your advantage and possibly other usage I haven't considered.
Acclimation, good idea on paper. The implementation of it however I am not a fan of, it is unnatural and gamey and sound like a forced idea; possibly a darling that needs to get killed and re-invented? I feel it is much more natural to incorperate acclimation with resists so it opens up the use of spells, potions, gear, or maybe acclimation gear to be added to normal gear (snow shoes, fur collar, warm underwear, fire proof boot extensions, etc).
Level adjustment aka mentoring. While I appreciate what it tries to do, I still straight hate it. In my opinion it removes a very important part of progression and being in touch with your character, it is very gamey and immersion breaking to me. I wish there were some better ways to get players with different levels together.
I agree across the board. Beyond just hating the gamey-ness of mentoring, it also lowers the value of every day people you meet in the world. Part of the reason people respected one another and reputation mattered in early EQ, was because no matter how many friends you had and how big your guild was, you still had to rely on other players for groups. Pretty much nobody played with the same 6 people every day, and because the world was big and there were time constraints, you constantly grouped with new people out of necessity. While you may not always find a friend or guildmate that is nearby and within level range, you can always find someone in your circle that will mentor down. Therefore, it harms the true broader sense of "community" that everyone likes to talk about so much, and promotes exclusion rather than inclusion.
Back in the day when people played those dungeons and dragons book games and other similar rpg, did they imagine combat in their thoughts to be like this where everyone surrounds enemy and hit it. Yea this is strategic, but its the strategy you would use in a board/book game instead of strategy you would use "combat" in an interactive physical environment which is what video games are primarily invented to simulate for in the first place. Especially in modern mmos.
Acclimation, good idea on paper. The implementation of it however I am not a fan of, it is unnatural and gamey and sound like a forced idea; possibly a darling that needs to get killed and re-invented? I feel it is much more natural to incorperate acclimation with resists so it opens up the use of spells, potions, gear, or maybe acclimation gear to be added to normal gear (snow shoes, fur collar, warm underwear, fire proof boot extensions, etc).
I disagree because if climate bonuses become a buff for gear it will become a complicated min max chase for the perfect gear set. In vanilla wow everyone was chasing fire proof gear for molten core and invariably sacrificing other things to do so. You just end up with 6 different gear sets required for different raids.
With the proposed system you can buff and forget. I'm sure it will be a grind to get the best in slot buffs but it isn't detracting from the other gear choices.
And how does locking content prevent everyone to do everything if the requirements have no urgency or player skill behind it, just a check mark?
It seems to me that anyone can do that.
And second: I'm not socialist nor mocking me will improve your point.
Strawman. I never said player skill should not be involved. I'm not proposing anything as shallow as what you're suggesting.
You play the game, it simulates experience and knowledge (which can, at times be represented by checkmarks). With that, you gain access to new things. Whether it's levels or any other form of gating, that is what keeps people playing. It should require time, knowledge and skill of the player.
And whether you know it or not, you've been indoctrinated.
Socialism, indocrinated... Wtf?
I'm not talking about what you said. This thread is about what they shown on the stream and the mechanics shown do not require player skill.
Dude, tune down a little, ok?
This is the problem when you raise any legitimate questions with a fanboy. They don't care, they just want you to agree with them. Anything else they see as vitriol about their mmo. The truth is, you brought up some good points. And even a fan of the game should be asking them.
This is the problem when you raise any legitimate questions with a fanboy. They don't care, they just want you to agree with them. Anything else they see as vitriol about their mmo. The truth is, you brought up some good points. And even a fan of the game should be asking them.
I answered the points brought up thoroughly. You don't have to like Pantheon to understand that progression in any mmo means there will be things you have to work to gain access to. Acting like it's some form of oppression because you might be required to first accomplish one thing to gain access to another is ridiculous.
As to the other "points", it's really a matter of preference and realistic expectations at such an early stage of development. I mean, they just said in this stream that they've only begun to work on the metagame within combat itself. In depth critiques at this stage are kind of futile. Things are still being added or changed with frequency.
Good points? People aren't asking really in this thread about points. Many don't 'like' the idea period and want it gone. Meanwhile others think the first iteration must be to their liking or Visionary Realms has something deeper to hide, while more still subtly and not so subtly troll with words of 'fanboy,' and 'no-lifers.'
Personally I like the idea, but need to see more from it and what else they have planned for it. But they've already said it's a work in progress and Joppa mentioned that he likes the 'exposure' idea.
I'm sure this thread will continue to be productive.
Or you remove the gate and let people throw themselves against a brick wall all day if they want to, after all it's their time.
If anything, YOU are the one enforcing socialistic agendas upon the player-base.
"Big brother (government) knows best, you just stay over there until I tell you that you can come over here with us"
Right. Any time you can't have it your way, it's big brother's fault. You're still arguing for entitlement, and you can't even see it.
No one is telling the player anything. It's up to the player to find a way to get across the bridge. Did you even watch the stream. You can throw yourself against that "wall" and try to get across any time you want. You just might find a way to get across it too without having the best acclimation item in every slot.
That philosophy is single-handedly responsible for destroying achievement in MMOs, and you're still championing it and you don't even realize it.
I don't think you understand what gating is.
You're arguing for gating, where you literally are not allowed to do something until to meet a certain requirement.
That is not the same as being ill-prepared.
Gating is literally the devs saying "You can't go there until you do what we want you to". Whether that's time, level, whatever.
Sure, someone refers to you in a extremist way and suddenly everyone is either "you" or someone not making valid points. Because doing the very same thing you think is stupid makes you look real good. Because false dichotomy helps everyone.
<snip> Also, how the fucking fuckdoes early stages of development limits concept? That's like the whole point of a concept - - it is limitless on creation, tuned down on pre R&D/mock-up phase and shaped on mock up and application.
No. Not everyone is me or someone not making valid points. What I highlighted was the unproductive discussion about the acclimation system. Your use of 'false dichotomy' isn't correct. I stated the obvious fact in this thread. You have a game feature that some people simply do not like, while others do like it. That's where the crux of the heated argument is coming from. Now multiple people that do not like it are accusing those that do like it of being no-lifers, fanboys settling for something less. There is your dichotomy. Just because you might not like that I addressed the issue does not make it false.
And no one referred to me in an extremist way because I didn't see these 'attacks' were directed at me. If they were, I would report them and move on. I do however think a few in this thread are trolling people to illicit a negative response, hence my 'People need to chill out' response with the dev link. Instead of presuming to know what the motivation of the developers is, people (being the ones responding in this thread that could possibly be getting heated) could read it and see it's still being worked on. It's not set in stone and maybe relax a little until they see what else they do with it.
As for early stages of development limit concept, I'm not entirely sure on what you are getting at there or what you're referring to. Concept is an idea. We have no information on what the original concept Joppa's idea is/was. We only have the first implementation of that idea to look at. Now it might be that current technical limitations of the game or development time might restrict that idea/concept, so that would be how the 'fucking fuck' early stages of development limit concept. The good news is that they are going to keep working on the idea/concept.
Sure, someone refers to you in a extremist way and suddenly everyone is either "you" or someone not making valid points. Because doing the very same thing you think is stupid makes you look real good. Because false dichotomy helps everyone.
<snip> Also, how the fucking fuckdoes early stages of development limits concept? That's like the whole point of a concept - - it is limitless on creation, tuned down on pre R&D/mock-up phase and shaped on mock up and application.
No. Not everyone is me or someone not making valid points. What I highlighted was the unproductive discussion about the acclimation system. Your use of 'false dichotomy' isn't correct. I stated the obvious fact in this thread. You have a game feature that some people simply do not like, while others do like it. That's where the crux of the heated argument is coming from. Now multiple people that do not like it are accusing those that do like it of being no-lifers, fanboys settling for something less. There is your dichotomy. Just because you might not like that I addressed the issue does not make it false.
And no one referred to me in an extremist way because I didn't see these 'attacks' were directed at me. If they were, I would report them and move on. I do however think a few in this thread are trolling people to illicit a negative response, hence my 'People need to chill out' response with the dev link. Instead of presuming to know what the motivation of the developers is, people (being the ones responding in this thread that could possibly be getting heated) could read it and see it's still being worked on. It's not set in stone and maybe relax a little until they see what else they do with it.
As for early stages of development limit concept, I'm not entirely sure on what you are getting at there or what you're referring to. Concept is an idea. We have no information on what the original concept Joppa's idea is/was. We only have the first implementation of that idea to look at. Now it might be that current technical limitations of the game or development time might restrict that idea/concept, so that would be how the 'fucking fuck' early stages of development limit concept. The good news is that they are going to keep working on the idea/concept.
If the acclimation system was a first iteration and is going to evolve to something wonderful, then why show a temporary, makeshift version of that system? All that can do is create a false first impression, which builds false expectations of the product. So, what was VR's purpose in starting the most recent stream by featuring an incomplete system? Would it have hurt or helped VR to postpone showing the implementation of their acclimation system? Me, I think it would have helped them to show something a bit more finished.
Responding to a discussion by posting a gif does nothing to address the points made, nor contribute to the discussion.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Comments
Of course it's a good thing. Without gating, also known as progression, there would be no reason to do anything. Everything in real life is gated. Without that framework, your achievements wouldn't mean shit.
The reasoning behind removal of progression is pure entitlement.
Without a system of advancement in place, your achievements mean significantly less. It's not that hard to understand for those of us not subscribing to socialist doctrines.
Strawman. I never said player skill should not be involved. I'm not proposing anything as shallow as what you're suggesting.
You play the game, it simulates experience and knowledge (which can, at times be represented by checkmarks). With that, you gain access to new things. Whether it's levels or any other form of gating, that is what keeps people playing. It should require time, knowledge and skill of the player.
And whether you know it or not, you've been indoctrinated.
I agree and disagree. I don't believe in gating. At all. But I do believe that player should be able to take on harder content.
It's not about being entitled to do everything, it's about having the chance to do anything and everything and you fail or succeed on your own merits.
It means more to be less powerful but to achieve greater things. The achievements should be about one's ability to surmount overwhelming adversity, not just about being the right level.
This is not to say I'm against leveling. I'm not. Love it actually. But I'm more for an open world and people can pick and choose their challenges and fail or succeed on their own merit.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That's a rather simplistic view of the point raised here. I don't want an entitlement, I want a feature that is truly dangerous and immersive, how is that an entitlement? I don't like to see the mechanic tied to a progression system at all, because I feel it would be more beneficial to game, group dynamics as well as socialization to always have to face it, as it creates more down time as well as more danger. It's a missed opportunity to add social features like camps to the group dynamic...
I think it cheapens the mechanic if it is used for a tiered system to eventually bypass the effects. Why turn immersive features into a grind or an annoyance for the sake of time consumption? That's what they had to do when they didn't have good gaming systems to simulate these effects, many games have proven working mechanics for that now.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Or you remove the gate and let people throw themselves against a brick wall all day if they want to, after all it's their time.
If anything, YOU are the one enforcing socialistic agendas upon the player-base.
"Big brother (government) knows best, you just stay over there until I tell you that you can come over here with us"
No one is telling the player anything. It's up to the player to find a way to get across the bridge. Did you even watch the stream. You can throw yourself against that "wall" and try to get across any time you want. You just might find a way to get across it too without having the best acclimation item in every slot.
That philosophy is single-handedly responsible for destroying achievement in MMOs, and you're still championing it and you don't even realize it.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5063/opinion-on-acclimation-system/view/post_id/108541
This is the first iteration of a feature. People need to chill out.
If it's the first iteration of a feature, why display it so prominently? To show how little they've accomplished? First impressions are important. I think the 'pre-pre-pre-alpha' and 'first iteration' language from developers are simply ways of saying "we're further behind that we'd like to admit" without upsetting the fans.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
In an mmo, your merits are often items you've gained in previous tests of skill, knowledge and previous item advancement. It's not all about player skill, nor should it be, or the game becomes more about being a hero, than playing a hero. That is the nature of most games, particularly rpgs and mmorpgs.
Besides skill, time is the biggest source of merit. When you take time out of the equation, you're left with a game where progression is rigidly determined by skill. Wildstar has become a cautionary tale of what happens when you lean too heavily on player performance.
Well that I disagree with. An mmo doesn't have to be "one thing'. Skill very well can be a factor if the game play is designed around that factor.
There isn't a law stating that skill can't be a deciding factor. Early games were more about the character, sure, but there is no reason why a game can't be designed with the actual player skill in mind.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Who needs to chill out? People are just discussing what they'd rather see, what better time than when the devs are actually iterating on the feature?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Several times the devs said that mechanics needed to be play tested to see if it were viable and fun - Good, kill your darlings if they don't work (problem is of course the pressure from players who can make this impossible).
While talking about soloing, one said they were not designing specific solo classes but see how the players would find ways to use mechanics and skills to solo (some of the most loved eq mechanics were also found and refined this way) - Love this approach.
They will not prevent boxing by rules but by making a character require so much focus it will be impractical and inefficient to box - Thank you. We still have to see any of that as currently the combat is a very simple version of eq basics. Also, how to avoid the eq2 issue and combat being directed to much by those opportunities and chains, instead of flowing freely.
Disposition, a great idea which could lead to very interesting tactics. Conning for disposition with perception, disposition altering spells/abilities, advanced pulling using enemy disposition to your advantage and possibly other usage I haven't considered.
Acclimation, good idea on paper. The implementation of it however I am not a fan of, it is unnatural and gamey and sound like a forced idea; possibly a darling that needs to get killed and re-invented? I feel it is much more natural to incorperate acclimation with resists so it opens up the use of spells, potions, gear, or maybe acclimation gear to be added to normal gear (snow shoes, fur collar, warm underwear, fire proof boot extensions, etc).
Level adjustment aka mentoring. While I appreciate what it tries to do, I still straight hate it. In my opinion it removes a very important part of progression and being in touch with your character, it is very gamey and immersion breaking to me. I wish there were some better ways to get players with different levels together.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
I agree across the board. Beyond just hating the gamey-ness of mentoring, it also lowers the value of every day people you meet in the world. Part of the reason people respected one another and reputation mattered in early EQ, was because no matter how many friends you had and how big your guild was, you still had to rely on other players for groups. Pretty much nobody played with the same 6 people every day, and because the world was big and there were time constraints, you constantly grouped with new people out of necessity. While you may not always find a friend or guildmate that is nearby and within level range, you can always find someone in your circle that will mentor down. Therefore, it harms the true broader sense of "community" that everyone likes to talk about so much, and promotes exclusion rather than inclusion.
I disagree because if climate bonuses become a buff for gear it will become a complicated min max chase for the perfect gear set. In vanilla wow everyone was chasing fire proof gear for molten core and invariably sacrificing other things to do so. You just end up with 6 different gear sets required for different raids.
With the proposed system you can buff and forget. I'm sure it will be a grind to get the best in slot buffs but it isn't detracting from the other gear choices.
This is the problem when you raise any legitimate questions with a fanboy. They don't care, they just want you to agree with them. Anything else they see as vitriol about their mmo. The truth is, you brought up some good points. And even a fan of the game should be asking them.
I answered the points brought up thoroughly. You don't have to like Pantheon to understand that progression in any mmo means there will be things you have to work to gain access to. Acting like it's some form of oppression because you might be required to first accomplish one thing to gain access to another is ridiculous.
As to the other "points", it's really a matter of preference and realistic expectations at such an early stage of development. I mean, they just said in this stream that they've only begun to work on the metagame within combat itself. In depth critiques at this stage are kind of futile. Things are still being added or changed with frequency.
Good points? People aren't asking really in this thread about points. Many don't 'like' the idea period and want it gone. Meanwhile others think the first iteration must be to their liking or Visionary Realms has something deeper to hide, while more still subtly and not so subtly troll with words of 'fanboy,' and 'no-lifers.'
Personally I like the idea, but need to see more from it and what else they have planned for it. But they've already said it's a work in progress and Joppa mentioned that he likes the 'exposure' idea.
I'm sure this thread will continue to be productive.
I don't think you understand what gating is.
You're arguing for gating, where you literally are not allowed to do something until to meet a certain requirement.
That is not the same as being ill-prepared.
Gating is literally the devs saying "You can't go there until you do what we want you to". Whether that's time, level, whatever.
No. Not everyone is me or someone not making valid points. What I highlighted was the unproductive discussion about the acclimation system. Your use of 'false dichotomy' isn't correct. I stated the obvious fact in this thread. You have a game feature that some people simply do not like, while others do like it. That's where the crux of the heated argument is coming from. Now multiple people that do not like it are accusing those that do like it of being no-lifers, fanboys settling for something less. There is your dichotomy. Just because you might not like that I addressed the issue does not make it false.
And no one referred to me in an extremist way because I didn't see these 'attacks' were directed at me. If they were, I would report them and move on. I do however think a few in this thread are trolling people to illicit a negative response, hence my 'People need to chill out' response with the dev link. Instead of presuming to know what the motivation of the developers is, people (being the ones responding in this thread that could possibly be getting heated) could read it and see it's still being worked on. It's not set in stone and maybe relax a little until they see what else they do with it.
As for early stages of development limit concept, I'm not entirely sure on what you are getting at there or what you're referring to. Concept is an idea. We have no information on what the original concept Joppa's idea is/was. We only have the first implementation of that idea to look at. Now it might be that current technical limitations of the game or development time might restrict that idea/concept, so that would be how the 'fucking fuck' early stages of development limit concept. The good news is that they are going to keep working on the idea/concept.
If the acclimation system was a first iteration and is going to evolve to something wonderful, then why show a temporary, makeshift version of that system? All that can do is create a false first impression, which builds false expectations of the product. So, what was VR's purpose in starting the most recent stream by featuring an incomplete system? Would it have hurt or helped VR to postpone showing the implementation of their acclimation system? Me, I think it would have helped them to show something a bit more finished.
Responding to a discussion by posting a gif does nothing to address the points made, nor contribute to the discussion.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.