Lazy Peon's Ashes Of Creation Developer Q&A

[Deleted User]

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Mikeha

So good to see this game coming.

Jacobin

Peon is making mad bank on this. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one who made $10000 off of backer referrals as is promoted on the AoC website and being pitched to content creators.

Why anyone trusts these youtubers is beyond me, they are just in it for the 15% commission and are creating fake hype.

There are people spamming that the game looks more polished than AAA mmos not understanding what UE4 store asset flips are.

The MLM playbook is in full effect and this is going to be another No Mans Sky. Its not only going to scam the backers, but will sink KS as an mmo funding platform. Sharif is exactly the type of person that made people skeptical of KS, they just forgot because some real devs have given it some legitimacy.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Kajidourden

Still not much substance or detail.  All very vague but pretty.

Slapshot1188

Jacobin said:

Peon is making mad bank on this. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one who made $10000 off of backer referrals as is promoted on the AoC website and being pitched to content creators.

Why anyone trusts these youtubers is beyond me, they are just in it for the 15% commission and are creating fake hype.

There are people spamming that the game looks more polished than AAA mmos not understanding what UE4 store asset flips are.

The MLM playbook is in full effect and this is going to be another No Mans Sky. Its not only going to scam the backers, but will sink KS as an mmo funding platform. Sharif is exactly the type of person that made people skeptical of KS, they just forgot because some real devs have given it some legitimacy.

How can someone have made $10,000 off backer referrals when they won't be paid out until the game launches?  Is there a link to that claim?

Slapshot1188

SedrynTyros said:

Kajidourden said:

Still not much substance or detail.  All very vague but pretty.

What is the expectation exactly?  They've explained their intended design and showed footage from the pre-alpha.   What other details should they be giving out?

There is some confusion about how complete the game is.   I have literally seen people claim that the game is mostly done because Steven put $30,000,000 of his own money into development already and the Kickstarter is just for marketing and to allow for some polish.

I wouldn't mind seeing a statement/estimate about how complete the game really is at this point.  I also wouldn't mind seeing how much funding they already have secured vs the $30,000,000 target and how much has been spent.

Kajidourden

SedrynTyros said:

Kajidourden said:

Still not much substance or detail.  All very vague but pretty.

What is the expectation exactly?  They've explained their intended design and showed footage from the pre-alpha.   What other details should they be giving out?

There's a lot of "what" and not any "how"

There's goals, and no plan to get there.

LIOKI

SedrynTyros said:

Kajidourden said:

Still not much substance or detail.  All very vague but pretty.

What is the expectation exactly?  They've explained their intended design and showed footage from the pre-alpha.   What other details should they be giving out?

They have shown what the UE4 engine can render. Aside from a few real lazy blueprint functions to make some semblance of "combat" there is nothing here.

LeFantome

Jacobin said:

Peon is making mad bank on this. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one who made $10000 off of backer referrals as is promoted on the AoC website and being pitched to content creators.

Why anyone trusts these youtubers is beyond me, they are just in it for the 15% commission and are creating fake hype.

There are people spamming that the game looks more polished than AAA mmos not understanding what UE4 store asset flips are.

The MLM playbook is in full effect and this is going to be another No Mans Sky. Its not only going to scam the backers, but will sink KS as an mmo funding platform. Sharif is exactly the type of person that made people skeptical of KS, they just forgot because some real devs have given it some legitimacy.

lol, you must be a clown!  Because you're funny as hell.

rojoArcueid

I'm interested in this game. It looks really good for my taste. However, i can only see myself playing this for one or two months a year. Why? because of the subscription. I do the same with WoW.

VicusEQ

rojoArcueid said:

I'm interested in this game. It looks really good for my taste. However, i can only see myself playing this for one or two months a year. Why? because of the subscription. I do the same with WoW.

This is the same reason I will play this for the longterm (10+ months a year).  Because they aren't allowing any and everybody just jump into the game.  Free to play caters to a ton of people who arent really willing to put the effort into making the game great.  This is not everyone obviously but by not going free to play they are ensuring a steady income, less gold spammers, and an equal challenge level for all players.  Free to play game makers almost ALWAYS give into the temptation to put things on the store that are going to net them a ton of money, even if it means that the game is going to not last long term or make balance impossible.  The only game that I have seen that has worked as a F2P/B2P game is guild wars 2.  Everything else IMO just allows someone with unlimited cash flow win the game.

Subscription games that do well ...last longer IMO.  WoW, EQ,EQ2, FFXIV (is going to last awhile), Ultima Online (still going), ect.  But the most important part of being a subscription based game...is making sure the game has a lot of content from the start and is POLISHED at launch.  If the majority of the palyers beat the game in a month and hits a wall for content, they won't subscribe for the second month.  Making sure players have ATLEAST 4 months of content at launch = longterm healthy.  Because they gives the developers 4 months to have the next big content patch ready to launch.  If after 30 days you are trying to rush crap out the door to appease people who are already bored, you will never catch up.  Hope the devs understand this and make this game with longterm healthy in mind.

acidblood

I'm really torn with Ashes, as on the one hand I love what they are talking about, and assuming they can pull it off with a decent level of quality, it will probably be the best MMO ever* ... on the other hand though, they are still light on detail, and most of us have been here before. So, while I don't doubt the passion of the Dev team, building a AAA MMO of this scale is one hell of an undertaking, and I do have doubts about the 'launched product' being anything close to the scope (quality PvE, large scale PvP, large and dynamic world, etc.) of what they are outlining.

Also, while I'm happy they are staying away from the slippery slop that is F2P (and P2W), they do seem pretty heavy on the early adopter advantages (getting a bigger house, etc.), so it would be interesting to hear what their thoughts are on players being able to 'catch-up' if they start late. I also have my doubts about the marketing scheme, as far from 'democratising' it, they have just turned everyone into a potential shill, willing to push harder, and gloss over more issues (even the glaring ones), than they otherwise would have for the potential (and potentially significant) financial gains.

... On the plus side though, it looks like Ashes is getting made regardless of what I think, so there is always the possibility to jump in at a later date.

*This doesn't necessarily mean most subscribers, as sadly a lot of people seem perfectly happy with AFKing in raid finder for their free purplez in the latest WoW 'expansion'.

Edit: And would this damn editing script make up it's mind about how formating is going to work and stop trying to be 'smart' by inserting extra linebreaks where I don't want them!

rojoArcueid

VicusEQ said:

rojoArcueid said:

I'm interested in this game. It looks really good for my taste. However, i can only see myself playing this for one or two months a year. Why? because of the subscription. I do the same with WoW.

This is the same reason I will play this for the longterm (10+ months a year).  Because they aren't allowing any and everybody just jump into the game.  Free to play caters to a ton of people who arent really willing to put the effort into making the game great.  This is not everyone obviously but by not going free to play they are ensuring a steady income, less gold spammers, and an equal challenge level for all players.  Free to play game makers almost ALWAYS give into the temptation to put things on the store that are going to net them a ton of money, even if it means that the game is going to not last long term or make balance impossible.  The only game that I have seen that has worked as a F2P/B2P game is guild wars 2.  Everything else IMO just allows someone with unlimited cash flow win the game.

Subscription games that do well ...last longer IMO.  WoW, EQ,EQ2, FFXIV (is going to last awhile), Ultima Online (still going), ect.  But the most important part of being a subscription based game...is making sure the game has a lot of content from the start and is POLISHED at launch.  If the majority of the palyers beat the game in a month and hits a wall for content, they won't subscribe for the second month.  Making sure players have ATLEAST 4 months of content at launch = longterm healthy.  Because they gives the developers 4 months to have the next big content patch ready to launch.  If after 30 days you are trying to rush crap out the door to appease people who are already bored, you will never catch up.  Hope the devs understand this and make this game with longterm healthy in mind.

That's fine. I'm not saying it should be free to play. Just saying i don't subscribe enough, and i'm OK with that. I love WoW but i don't expect to pay every month to have access after i paid for the game and every expansion. 1-2 months give me enough time to see the content i want to see, which is the main storyline.

Jacobin

Slapshot1188 said:

How can someone have made $10,000 off backer referrals when they won't be paid out until the game launches?  Is there a link to that claim?

3:08

Fevir shows screenshots of the referral landing page which has since been edited. It claimed if you sign up 4400 people for a month you will get over $10 000 in cash eventually.

Is this a scam? No
Will this turn tons of people into shills willing to lie and create fake hype in order to get sign ups? Yes
 

Examples of lies:
AoC is a polished AAA game
AoC will be out in a year
Steven Sharif has already put in 30M


AoC = Xango juice. Spend $150 on four bottles of sugar water thinking it has magical health properties.

MLM tactics will spread the word like crazy and drive up quick sales since everyone and their mother is trying to get rich like Steven.

The problem is that there is no quality control and pretty soon your brand will be associated with snake oil due to all of the false claims from unaccountable distributors (content creators).

4Renziks

I don't care about the tactics.....only if its a good game or not.  This is not an MLM as there are no levels this is a Referral system.  Alot of gyms , phone companies, ride sharing program, and other start up use this system. Saying it corrupts a youtuber...maybe, but thats that happens with other games outside this system as well.  

Shaigh

SedrynTyros said:

Jacobin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

How can someone have made $10,000 off backer referrals when they won't be paid out until the game launches?  Is there a link to that claim?

3:08

Fevir shows screenshots of the referral landing page which has since been edited. It claimed if you sign up 4400 people for a month you will get over $10 000 in cash eventually.

Is this a scam? No
Will this turn tons of people into shills willing to lie and create fake hype in order to get sign ups? Yes
 

Examples of lies:
AoC is a polished AAA game
AoC will be out in a year
Steven Sharif has already put in 30M


AoC = Xango juice. Spend $150 on four bottles of sugar water thinking it has magical health properties.

MLM tactics will spread the word like crazy and drive up quick sales since everyone and their mother is trying to get rich like Steven.

The problem is that there is no quality control and pretty soon your brand will be associated with snake oil due to all of the false claims from unaccountable distributors (content creators).

I disagree. Eventually, people will play the game, and if it blows, they'll be just as vocal as you are ... if not more.  No amount of MLM will disguise the truth of the game for long.  If it sucks hard, everyone will know about it.  Look around, dude. You can't hide a shitty game from the internets.

There's more quality control now than ever before.  Ever heard of "No Man's Sky"?  I'm guessing you have ...

You can delay games and hide with endless excuses of "its an ambitious project, its still in pre-alpha and it will be great at launch". On NMS, they hyped it up and walked away with a boatload of cash.

Quality control is done to catch problems so you can prevent bad things from happening, a hyped game crashing after release is because of lack of quality control.

Vrika

Shaigh said:

You can delay games and hide with endless excuses of "its an ambitious project, its still in pre-alpha and it will be great at launch". On NMS, they hyped it up and walked away with a boatload of cash.

Quality control is done to catch problems so you can prevent bad things from happening, a hyped game crashing after release is because of lack of quality control.

A hyped small budget game crashing after release is good business. It's not a lack of quality control, it's a conscious decision that now the company should overhype and underdeliver.

Texas7

Lazy PEon did an awesome job. I suggest everybody to watch the video.

Sovrath

Kajidourden said:

SedrynTyros said:

Kajidourden said:

Still not much substance or detail.  All very vague but pretty.

What is the expectation exactly?  They've explained their intended design and showed footage from the pre-alpha.   What other details should they be giving out?

There's a lot of "what" and not any "how"

There's goals, and no plan to get there.

um, how do you know there's no plan to get there? Clearly there was enough of a plan to get to a point where they could show some footage.

At least, form the footage we've seen, there is a reasonably polished "presentation". That's more than other developers have shown.

I'm not saying the game will be great or even finished but it's unreasonable to just assume there's no plan when they have actually shown "something".

Sovrath

Nyctelios said:

Sovrath said:

Kajidourden said:

SedrynTyros said:

Kajidourden said:

Still not much substance or detail.  All very vague but pretty.

What is the expectation exactly?  They've explained their intended design and showed footage from the pre-alpha.   What other details should they be giving out?

There's a lot of "what" and not any "how"

There's goals, and no plan to get there.

um, how do you know there's no plan to get there? Clearly there was enough of a plan to get to a point where they could show some footage.

At least, form the footage we've seen, there is a reasonably polished "presentation". That's more than other developers have shown.

I'm not saying the game will be great or even finished but it's unreasonable to just assume there's no plan when they have actually shown "something".

See, this right here? This is the problem.

You are talking about a video game and praising that it has assets. Now ask again why asset flip are to common on Steam.

I don't care that it has a forge in the middle of a camp. How will it work?

If you show(*edit) me tons of grey boxes and cylinders interacting it will be more useful than a polished (maybe bought) model doing nothing while you talk about the second coming of Jesus.

I tested games in greybox state with fully working mechanics. That's how it is suppose to be.

It's a kickstarter presentation, it isn't launch.

You guys want there to be a completely finished game for "a kickstarter" presentation. You know what the problem is? You don't understand what you're looking at when you "view a kickstarter presentation".

Now, if you don't like kickstarter that's great. If you truly believe that games need to be finished before they market them that's great too.

But be that as it may, regardless of your feelings for it, it exists. And kickstarter presentation are just that "presentations".

These are works in progress. It is what it is.

edit: I should also add that Ashes of Creation (and no I didn't back it) showed more than Pantheon with their presentation. And look at how far Pantheon has come.

So whether or not they bring their project to fruition really depends on the team, their funding and their goals.

Ponzini

rojoArcueid said:

VicusEQ said:

rojoArcueid said:

I'm interested in this game. It looks really good for my taste. However, i can only see myself playing this for one or two months a year. Why? because of the subscription. I do the same with WoW.

This is the same reason I will play this for the longterm (10+ months a year).  Because they aren't allowing any and everybody just jump into the game.  Free to play caters to a ton of people who arent really willing to put the effort into making the game great.  This is not everyone obviously but by not going free to play they are ensuring a steady income, less gold spammers, and an equal challenge level for all players.  Free to play game makers almost ALWAYS give into the temptation to put things on the store that are going to net them a ton of money, even if it means that the game is going to not last long term or make balance impossible.  The only game that I have seen that has worked as a F2P/B2P game is guild wars 2.  Everything else IMO just allows someone with unlimited cash flow win the game.

Subscription games that do well ...last longer IMO.  WoW, EQ,EQ2, FFXIV (is going to last awhile), Ultima Online (still going), ect.  But the most important part of being a subscription based game...is making sure the game has a lot of content from the start and is POLISHED at launch.  If the majority of the palyers beat the game in a month and hits a wall for content, they won't subscribe for the second month.  Making sure players have ATLEAST 4 months of content at launch = longterm healthy.  Because they gives the developers 4 months to have the next big content patch ready to launch.  If after 30 days you are trying to rush crap out the door to appease people who are already bored, you will never catch up.  Hope the devs understand this and make this game with longterm healthy in mind.

That's fine. I'm not saying it should be free to play. Just saying i don't subscribe enough, and i'm OK with that. I love WoW but i don't expect to pay every month to have access after i paid for the game and every expansion. 1-2 months give me enough time to see the content i want to see, which is the main storyline.

The difference is AoC won't have a box cost. You won't have to pay the $50 to buy the game first. 

$15 per month and a cash shop with only some cosmetics. Seems like a pretty good compromise to me.

Kajidourden

Sovrath said:

Nyctelios said:

Sovrath said:

Kajidourden said:

SedrynTyros said:

Kajidourden said:

Still not much substance or detail.  All very vague but pretty.

What is the expectation exactly?  They've explained their intended design and showed footage from the pre-alpha.   What other details should they be giving out?

There's a lot of "what" and not any "how"

There's goals, and no plan to get there.

um, how do you know there's no plan to get there? Clearly there was enough of a plan to get to a point where they could show some footage.

At least, form the footage we've seen, there is a reasonably polished "presentation". That's more than other developers have shown.

I'm not saying the game will be great or even finished but it's unreasonable to just assume there's no plan when they have actually shown "something".

See, this right here? This is the problem.

You are talking about a video game and praising that it has assets. Now ask again why asset flip are to common on Steam.

I don't care that it has a forge in the middle of a camp. How will it work?

If you show(*edit) me tons of grey boxes and cylinders interacting it will be more useful than a polished (maybe bought) model doing nothing while you talk about the second coming of Jesus.

I tested games in greybox state with fully working mechanics. That's how it is suppose to be.

It's a kickstarter presentation, it isn't launch.

You guys want there to be a completely finished game for "a kickstarter" presentation. You know what the problem is? You don't understand what you're looking at when you "view a kickstarter presentation".

Now, if you don't like kickstarter that's great. If you truly believe that games need to be finished before they market them that's great too.

But be that as it may, regardless of your feelings for it, it exists. And kickstarter presentation are just that "presentations".

These are works in progress. It is what it is.

edit: I should also add that Ashes of Creation (and no I didn't back it) showed more than Pantheon with their presentation. And look at how far Pantheon has come.

So whether or not they bring their project to fruition really depends on the team, their funding and their goals.

Look no further than the Crowfall campaign for an example of how it should be done. 

Detailed explanations, not vague promises. 

Hell, they've been ADDING features as they go.

When you promise "revolution" there should be a hell of a lot more than a paragraph explaining how.

Ponzini

Kajidourden said:

Sovrath said:

Nyctelios said:

Sovrath said:

Kajidourden said:

SedrynTyros said:

Kajidourden said:

Still not much substance or detail.  All very vague but pretty.

What is the expectation exactly?  They've explained their intended design and showed footage from the pre-alpha.   What other details should they be giving out?

There's a lot of "what" and not any "how"

There's goals, and no plan to get there.

um, how do you know there's no plan to get there? Clearly there was enough of a plan to get to a point where they could show some footage.

At least, form the footage we've seen, there is a reasonably polished "presentation". That's more than other developers have shown.

I'm not saying the game will be great or even finished but it's unreasonable to just assume there's no plan when they have actually shown "something".

See, this right here? This is the problem.

You are talking about a video game and praising that it has assets. Now ask again why asset flip are to common on Steam.

I don't care that it has a forge in the middle of a camp. How will it work?

If you show(*edit) me tons of grey boxes and cylinders interacting it will be more useful than a polished (maybe bought) model doing nothing while you talk about the second coming of Jesus.

I tested games in greybox state with fully working mechanics. That's how it is suppose to be.

It's a kickstarter presentation, it isn't launch.

You guys want there to be a completely finished game for "a kickstarter" presentation. You know what the problem is? You don't understand what you're looking at when you "view a kickstarter presentation".

Now, if you don't like kickstarter that's great. If you truly believe that games need to be finished before they market them that's great too.

But be that as it may, regardless of your feelings for it, it exists. And kickstarter presentation are just that "presentations".

These are works in progress. It is what it is.

edit: I should also add that Ashes of Creation (and no I didn't back it) showed more than Pantheon with their presentation. And look at how far Pantheon has come.

So whether or not they bring their project to fruition really depends on the team, their funding and their goals.

Look no further than the Crowfall campaign for an example of how it should be done. 

Detailed explanations, not vague promises. 

Hell, they've been ADDING features as they go.

When you promise "revolution" there should be a hell of a lot more than a paragraph explaining how.

I'm not sure what you mean. They have answered most questions that people have asked. Here is a document explaining what we know so far: 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14luppZ3Ub8jmcw_aK65QWxYY4xa8qAo9zRfpYWBxOXE/edit

They are showing live streams of the game 3 times a week and being very open about its development. 

They have a lot more information coming just give them time.

Sovrath

Kajidourden said:

Look no further than the Crowfall campaign for an example of how it should be done. 

Detailed explanations, not vague promises. 

Hell, they've been ADDING features as they go.

When you promise "revolution" there should be a hell of a lot more than a paragraph explaining how.

One could argue that Crowfall is not released no matter what their detailed explanations entail.

I should also point out that they are not immune to just making changes as they just changed races/classes as per the article on this site. Was that part of their detailed explanations before? No, they just announced it. It think some players might be happy but maybe there are people who are not?

Also, looking at the Crowfall video for Kickstarter, they didn't really show that much did they? Certainly not more than this game. So why do you give them a pass?

In any case, I'm actually of the mind that developers should NEVER say anything to gamerz until the features have been solidified and are actually done in game. However, Kickstarter, or any type of similar funding, is a different breed all together.

Too much crying, too much "you promised". One of the reasons why I think kickstarter is an iffy solution as developers might discover, through development, that things don't work, they might have to change ideas or add/remove things. Then the people who gave money will say "wait, I gave you money because of x, y an z and now you've changed.".

Jacobin

The difference with the previous generation of MMO kick starters is that the head devs had actually released and managed successful MMOs (CU - DAOC, WAR | CF - SB, SWG, UO).

Sure the KS videos did not show mechanics, but they had a body of work for the player to judge if they are capable of delivering.

This does not exist for AoC. Their qualifications are 'Im a fan' and we have a few guys worked on EQN which is the exact opposite of a successful project.

The dev team has very little credibility based on a portfolio of previous work therefore the demand that they show actual mechanics and evidence that they can do what they are claiming is completely fair.