Steven's experience is just an easy target, not unlike Brad's personal history was used against Pantheon, P2W is used against COE, Ship sales used against SC, etc... You could even say the long development time of an MMO or equivalent is also used as an easy target to bemoan the entire practice of funding an MMO this way (hence you always hear "where are the success stories").
There are just a number of people who hyper focus on one perceived negative and use said avenue to hammer negativity into the entire project.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No back then they just asked for Corporate handouts
If you don't understand the difference between investing and donating I don't know what to tell you.
The risk calculation is a lot different when you own a share of the potential profits and have leverage over the management of the project vs being a random internet donator.
A game can be terrible yet still provide a good ROI (P2W Asian Games). Unfortunately for the KS backer if the game sucks you do not get any of the money back, you are just stuck with a defective product.
Oh!! Please tell me about the risk calculation. I actually have extensive experience in risk management for software projects.
No back then they just asked for Corporate handouts
If you don't understand the difference between investing and donating I don't know what to tell you.
The risk calculation is a lot different when you own a share of the potential profits and have leverage over the management of the project vs being a random internet donator.
A game can be terrible yet still provide a good ROI (P2W Asian Games). Unfortunately for the KS backer if the game sucks you do not get any of the money back, you are just stuck with a defective product.
Sorry, I just had to laugh at the "have leverage over the management" part of your reply.
It's a damn good thing that early MMOs like UO, EQ, DAoC, Lineage, etc., were all created by people who had many years of experience launching MMOs... oh wait.
In all fairness most of those early titles were total train wrecks at launch, so you are sort of proving the opposite side of the argument.
They went on to be successful but I'm not so sure the market would be nearly so forgiving.
Although look how well early access titles sell in spite of withering criticism, perhaps it is a non issue after all.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Shroud of the Avatar if full of celebrity industry veterans and that game is a floater that's steady circling the drain. I think if the AoC team keeps lines of communication open with their playerbase and hire the right industry vets when they expand their team they'll be set up for the win. I don't want to play another UO reskin MMORPG based on everything that's already been done - I like the new ideas in AoC and they appear to be just as excited as we are about playing it. Bring on the stock exchange goal!
It's a damn good thing that early MMOs like UO, EQ, DAoC, Lineage, etc., were all created by people who had many years of experience launching MMOs... oh wait.
In all fairness most of those early titles were total train wrecks at launch, so you are sort of proving the opposite side of the argument.
They went on to be successful but I'm not so sure the market would be nearly so forgiving.
Although look how well early access titles sell in spite of withering criticism, perhaps it is a non issue after all.
Train wreck at launch is still the norm. The ones that aren't are the rare exception. And I'm talking about AAA projects with $100 million plus budgets.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Sorry, I just had to laugh at the "have leverage over the management" part of your reply.
Accountability is one of the biggest problems with crowdfunding. Devs can use community money to pay themselves 6 figure salaries for years and years with little to show for it then release a mess.
Obviously investor oversight can lead to major problems as well, but at least the community can judge a real product before spending money on it.
It's a damn good thing that early MMOs like UO, EQ, DAoC, Lineage, etc., were all created by people who had many years of experience launching MMOs... oh wait.
In all fairness most of those early titles were total train wrecks at launch, so you are sort of proving the opposite side of the argument.
They went on to be successful but I'm not so sure the market would be nearly so forgiving.
Although look how well early access titles sell in spite of withering criticism, perhaps it is a non issue after all.
Train wreck at launch is still the norm. The ones that aren't are the rare exception. And I'm talking about AAA projects with $100 million plus budgets.
True, but modern MMOs seem to challengedmore with being victims of their own success, struggling more with outside factors such as extraordinary demand at launch, combating hackers and gold spam.
Early MMOs were genuinely buggy and or bad games, or so it seems to me.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's a damn good thing that early MMOs like UO, EQ, DAoC, Lineage, etc., were all created by people who had many years of experience launching MMOs... oh wait.
You are right. The best thing a hiring manager can do is throw away all the resumes from people with successful relevant experience when hiring for a position...
I mean, nobody is saying it's IMPOSSIBLE for people without experience to be successful, but to blow it all off and say it's not a valid concern is silly. If given 2 candidates to leave my project, both with nearly identical skillsets and one of them has SUCCESSFULLY led a project... I thin it's obvious which one i would choose to lead my project.
What is your definition of SUCCESSFULLY led a project? Few MMORPG projects are as successful as intended.
I suppose that would be for each hiring manager to determine based on how the applicant answered. Why would I answer that question? Instead I would pose it to THEM. "Was project XYZ a success? If so, explain why and what you did to drive that. If not, what went wrong and what have you learned from those mistakes. What would you do different this time"
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Shroud of the Avatar if full of celebrity industry veterans and that game is a floater that's steady circling the drain.
This is the whole basis of the concerns with the project.
If industry veterans cant deliver a crowdfunded game why are people deciding that it makes sense to go to the roulette table with someone totally unknown with nothing but whatever could he could fish out of the SOE dumpster?
SOA should be an example that makes people more critical of AoC, not more hopeful.
Sorry, I just had to laugh at the "have leverage over the management" part of your reply.
Accountability is one of the biggest problems with crowdfunding. Devs can use community money to pay themselves 6 figure salaries for years and years with little to show for it then release a mess.
Obviously investor oversight can lead to major problems as well, but at least the community can judge a real product before spending money on it.
Can you give a citation here? This is a common misconception. In fact, I've heard about projects requiring people to work unpaid for months at a time. Pantheon being one of those.
Can you give a citation here? This is a common misconception. In fact, I've heard about projects requiring people to work unpaid for months at a time. Pantheon being one of those.
Shroud of the Avatar if full of celebrity industry veterans and that game is a floater that's steady circling the drain.
This is the whole basis of the concerns with the project.
If industry veterans cant deliver a crowdfunded game why are people deciding that it makes sense to go the the roulette table with someone totally unknown with nothing but whatever could he could fish out of the SOE dumpster?
SOA should be an example that makes people more critical of AoC, not more hopeful.
They (SOA) are delivering a game and I don't think it's really the budget that is the problem, it's the design. Not because of limitations, but because it's just not fun for many. Mostly because of the card based combat system, and the world set-up/ functionality.
Throwing more money at it wouldn't change that, unless they made a whole different experience with those funds ( a different game).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Can you give a citation here? This is a common misconception. In fact, I've heard about projects requiring people to work unpaid for months at a time. Pantheon being one of those.
Ever heard of a game called Star Citizen?
Yeah, they're one of the most accountable projects out there. Lol, if you're going to give an example of someone running away with money, it probably shouldn't be one where a developer can't have a shit without the Internet blowing up and claiming they're wasting money lol. Do some math on the salaries. It's accurate enough for government work.
You contradicted your own point. The accountability is there because people are fed up with waiting for years and years while the devs collect a salary.
You contradicted your own point. The accountability is there because people are fed up with waiting for years and years while the devs collect a salary.
When a project goes way out of the realm of a typical MMO development time frame, sure that would make sense. Otherwise you're expecting blood from a stone. Most of these projects are only a couple years in, even SC with it's promised scope is still within the realm of what it should take to make such a game. With multiple studios intertwined it can just add to that time.
AT this point these kinds of concerns are about as useful as asking "are we there yet" for the 100th time, 20 mins into a four hour drive
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You contradicted your own point. The accountability is there because people are fed up with waiting for years and years while the devs collect a salary.
When a project goes way out of the realm of a typical MMO development time frame, sure that would make sense. Otherwise you're expecting blood from a stone. Most of these projects are only a couple years in, even SC with it's promised scope is still within the realm of what it should take to make such a game. With multiple studios intertwined it can just add to that time.
AT this point these kinds of concerns are about as useful as asking "are we there yet" for the 100th time, 20 mins into a four hour drive
I remember someone posted on this site that some mmo was taking too long and it was just about "2 years".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You contradicted your own point. The accountability is there because people are fed up with waiting for years and years while the devs collect a salary.
When a project goes way out of the realm of a typical MMO development time frame, sure that would make sense. Otherwise you're expecting blood from a stone. Most of these projects are only a couple years in, even SC with it's promised scope is still within the realm of what it should take to make such a game. With multiple studios intertwined it can just add to that time.
AT this point these kinds of concerns are about as useful as asking "are we there yet" for the 100th time, 20 mins into a four hour drive
I agree with much of what you posted EXCEPT I would change it just sightly:
AT this point these kinds of concerns are about as useful as asking "are we there yet" for the 100th time, 20 mins into a four hour drive That your driver told you should take 10 minutes.
I mean, if you are going to sell people something and tell them an estimate on when you will deliver it, they have a right to complain when you are significantly late. I'm a fan of CR and cannot wait for Squadron42... but given the timeframe promised when people pledged.. criticism about late delivery is certainly valid.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You contradicted your own point. The accountability is there because people are fed up with waiting for years and years while the devs collect a salary.
When a project goes way out of the realm of a typical MMO development time frame, sure that would make sense. Otherwise you're expecting blood from a stone. Most of these projects are only a couple years in, even SC with it's promised scope is still within the realm of what it should take to make such a game. With multiple studios intertwined it can just add to that time.
AT this point these kinds of concerns are about as useful as asking "are we there yet" for the 100th time, 20 mins into a four hour drive
I remember someone posted on this site that some mmo was taking too long and it was just about "2 years".
Yeah I remember that thread as well, I believe it was about CU.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You contradicted your own point. The accountability is there because people are fed up with waiting for years and years while the devs collect a salary.
When a project goes way out of the realm of a typical MMO development time frame, sure that would make sense. Otherwise you're expecting blood from a stone. Most of these projects are only a couple years in, even SC with it's promised scope is still within the realm of what it should take to make such a game. With multiple studios intertwined it can just add to that time.
AT this point these kinds of concerns are about as useful as asking "are we there yet" for the 100th time, 20 mins into a four hour drive
I remember someone posted on this site that some mmo was taking too long and it was just about "2 years".
Yeah I remember that thread as well, I believe it was about CU.
Yeah like I always say about KS MMO projects, we know way too much and discuss them way too much too far ahead of time. I understand that we don't really have much else MMO related to discuss these days but that shouldn't change our perspective about the fact that we're discussing MMO ideas in their infancy.
Wake me up 3 months before release
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
You contradicted your own point. The accountability is there because people are fed up with waiting for years and years while the devs collect a salary.
When a project goes way out of the realm of a typical MMO development time frame, sure that would make sense. Otherwise you're expecting blood from a stone. Most of these projects are only a couple years in, even SC with it's promised scope is still within the realm of what it should take to make such a game. With multiple studios intertwined it can just add to that time.
AT this point these kinds of concerns are about as useful as asking "are we there yet" for the 100th time, 20 mins into a four hour drive
I agree with much of what you posted EXCEPT I would change it just sightly:
AT this point these kinds of concerns are about as useful as asking "are we there yet" for the 100th time, 20 mins into a four hour drive That your driver told you should take 10 minutes.
I mean, if you are going to sell people something and tell them an estimate on when you will deliver it, they have a right to complain when you are significantly late. I'm a fan of CR and cannot wait for Squadron42... but given the timeframe promised when people pledged.. criticism about late delivery is certainly valid.
I don't disagree in the case of SC, however it's not even the same game that was promised then, the original idea was much smaller in scope. They did the best they could do in that situation IMO, by offering refunds before expanding their scope. Some might disagree and that's fine, however I don't think it's a surprise most opted for the bigger, deeper game to anyone..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You contradicted your own point. The accountability is there because people are fed up with waiting for years and years while the devs collect a salary.
When a project goes way out of the realm of a typical MMO development time frame, sure that would make sense. Otherwise you're expecting blood from a stone. Most of these projects are only a couple years in, even SC with it's promised scope is still within the realm of what it should take to make such a game. With multiple studios intertwined it can just add to that time.
AT this point these kinds of concerns are about as useful as asking "are we there yet" for the 100th time, 20 mins into a four hour drive
I remember someone posted on this site that some mmo was taking too long and it was just about "2 years".
Yeah I remember that thread as well, I believe it was about CU.
Yeah like I always say about KS MMO projects, we know way too much and discuss them way too much too far ahead of time. I understand that we don't really have much else MMO related to discuss these days but that shouldn't change our perspective about the fact that we're discussing MMO ideas in their infancy.
Wake me up 3 months before release
Yeah that's one of the biggest issues with KS games, people start talking about them and hyping on them far too soon. It's a conundrum that is unavoidable considering they need the hype to raise the funds.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
There are just a number of people who hyper focus on one perceived negative and use said avenue to hammer negativity into the entire project.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
They went on to be successful but I'm not so sure the market would be nearly so forgiving.
Although look how well early access titles sell in spite of withering criticism, perhaps it is a non issue after all.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Obviously investor oversight can lead to major problems as well, but at least the community can judge a real product before spending money on it.
Early MMOs were genuinely buggy and or bad games, or so it seems to me.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If industry veterans cant deliver a crowdfunded game why are people deciding that it makes sense to go to the roulette table with someone totally unknown with nothing but whatever could he could fish out of the SOE dumpster?
SOA should be an example that makes people more critical of AoC, not more hopeful.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Throwing more money at it wouldn't change that, unless they made a whole different experience with those funds ( a different game).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Yeah, they're one of the most accountable projects out there. Lol, if you're going to give an example of someone running away with money, it probably shouldn't be one where a developer can't have a shit without the Internet blowing up and claiming they're wasting money lol. Do some math on the salaries. It's accurate enough for government work.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
AT this point these kinds of concerns are about as useful as asking "are we there yet" for the 100th time, 20 mins into a four hour drive
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
AT this point these kinds of concerns are about as useful as asking "are we there yet" for the 100th time, 20 mins into a four hour drive That your driver told you should take 10 minutes.
I mean, if you are going to sell people something and tell them an estimate on when you will deliver it, they have a right to complain when you are significantly late. I'm a fan of CR and cannot wait for Squadron42... but given the timeframe promised when people pledged.. criticism about late delivery is certainly valid.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Wake me up 3 months before release
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson