Your feelings on whats available overall

delete5230

What's your feelings on the overall state of mmos.


I'm not talking about emulators or 3rd party remakes ( many of us have our sources ).

cameltosis

For my personal preferences, there is nothing on the market right now that meets my needs and there hasn't been anything for years. At the risk of turning into kopo, its been a little over 4 years since I last committed to an MMO - I've beta tested or trialed quite a few since then, but none have met my needs. 

I have 4 minimum requirements for an MMO, based on examining what I liked and didn't like from all previous MMOs:

1) Deep combat system - if I'm going to be playing a game for years, the combat has to be deep enough to keep me interested. This can be somewhat mitigated by a deep meta-game. Sticking with the holy-trinity is also a turnoff as I find it too limiting when it comes to strategy. 

2) Horizontal Progression - at a minimum, endgame progression needs to be horizontal, but I'd prefer the whole game to be. Despite the fact that I'm pretty much always at the top of the power curve, I hate power gaps. I'm all about grouping, so anything that segregates the community is a big no-no for me.

3) Objective-based open world pvp - this is my absolute favourite activity. I love fighting over keeps and objectives, I love fights involving 50+ people. I love roaming in small groups to disrupt reinforcements or ninja'ing objectives. 

4) Strong IP - Preferably something I already know, but really just has to be an IP I can connect with. I have to want to live in the virtual world, so if the IP is too generic (like RIFT) or just plain wrong for me (like most asian mmos) I just won't play it, regardless of features. 


The only game that ever met these requirements was LotRO, however it flip-flopped on the horizontal progression. For vanilla, it had horizontal gear progression at endgame. For mines of moria and mirkwood, it switched to vertical (damn radiance) and nearly killed the raiding scene. It did switch back to horizontal for Isenguard but by that point, the quality had dropped massively and content was sparse.


Luckily, there is one game on the horizon that will meet my needs: Camelot Unchained.  

d_20

I'm having fun and I enjoy my play time or I do something else. There is so much choice but our expectations are unbelievably high. I found that just adapting to what's around is the best way for me to go.

Phaserlight

You don't give enough options; I have a favorite, but I also play whatever else is on the market and am open to trying new games.

There is more variety available today for gamers than at any point in history.

Talmien

Lately my friends and I haven't been able to find a multiplayer game to play together. By lately I mean for the past year, and nothing on the horizon looks appealing either. We used to spend hours playing games like EQ, WoW, Diablo, and Starcraft. But since we've played those games to death, when a new game like Grim Dawn, or Wildstar comes out it just feels like more of the same and we lose interest quickly. 

I feel game development has gotten really stale in terms of the Game Play being offered. With increases in hardware performance way too much development time and resources are being dedicated to graphics without actually broadening the Game Play. And I think that's really cheapening the players experience and enjoyment.

immodium

Phaserlight said:

You don't give enough options; I have a favorite, but I also play whatever else is on the market and am open to trying new games.

There is more variety available today for gamers than at any point in history.

Same.

As to favorite, it was SWG which I can still play today. However the majority of MMO's I play today are as enjoyable to play as SWG.

Also, I never look at playing MMO's for years or just selecting one as a 'Home', both are alien concepts to me. I play until I get bored, which even happens in my favorites.


I'd like to add that if I do spend an age in a game it has more to do with the community than the actual game.

cantankerousmage

Someone rich just needs to buy Cryptic from PWE and put me in charge.  I'll make a better game than anything else you can play right now (or in the near future), that's for sure.

Neverwinter sucks (because of its EQ/WoW-style endgame grind), but it's still better than any other MMORPG out there right now.  If you haven't played levels 1-60 in that game, you don't even know how fun an action combat mmorpg can be.

Sovrath

cantankerousmage said:

Someone rich just needs to buy Cryptic from PWE and put me in charge.  I'll make a better game than anything else you can play right now (or in the near future), that's for sure.

Well then you would probably make a lot of money as there is a lot of money out there for a successful game.

In which case why don't you just enter game development? It would be a no brainer wouldn't it?

Eronakis

<--- Waiting on Pantheon - Will save the genre for me. 

I am in the camp that MMORPG titles need to go back to niche gaming and instead of trying the wow monopolize all player base model. That way developers can be loyal and design a fun game that fit's their specific market. 

cantankerousmage

Sovrath said:

cantankerousmage said:

Someone rich just needs to buy Cryptic from PWE and put me in charge.  I'll make a better game than anything else you can play right now (or in the near future), that's for sure.

Well then you would probably make a lot of money as there is a lot of money out there for a successful game.

In which case why don't you just enter game development? It would be a no brainer wouldn't it?

The problem is, I totally screwed up my life by being a drunk for over 10 years of my life.  Got booted from the Army way back in 2000 because of it.  Went to some college, but never graduated.  Worked many different jobs.  Started teaching myself programming back in 2004-2005, but didn't keep going with it.  My friends and I were going to start an animation company back then.  Fell through though.  Four of them (artists) are working for Blizzard.  Three have been working there for ten years or more.  I don't talk to them anymore unfortuantely.  I pissed off my former best friend on FB a few years ago by saying something he didn't like (about his treatment of me concerning a girl we were both in love with a long time ago) when I was really depressed. 

Anyway, I have no credentials, and I have no real desire to learn programming.  It would probably take me two years or more to get good enough to program a decent game.  But I like to write and I have a lot of ideas.  Oh, I did stop drinking when I played EQ2 for 7 months straight back in 2014.

ragz45

cameltosis said:

For my personal preferences, there is nothing on the market right now that meets my needs and there hasn't been anything for years. At the risk of turning into kopo, its been a little over 4 years since I last committed to an MMO - I've beta tested or trialed quite a few since then, but none have met my needs. 

I have 4 minimum requirements for an MMO, based on examining what I liked and didn't like from all previous MMOs:

1) Deep combat system - if I'm going to be playing a game for years, the combat has to be deep enough to keep me interested. This can be somewhat mitigated by a deep meta-game. Sticking with the holy-trinity is also a turnoff as I find it too limiting when it comes to strategy. 

2) Horizontal Progression - at a minimum, endgame progression needs to be horizontal, but I'd prefer the whole game to be. Despite the fact that I'm pretty much always at the top of the power curve, I hate power gaps. I'm all about grouping, so anything that segregates the community is a big no-no for me.

3) Objective-based open world pvp - this is my absolute favourite activity. I love fighting over keeps and objectives, I love fights involving 50+ people. I love roaming in small groups to disrupt reinforcements or ninja'ing objectives. 

4) Strong IP - Preferably something I already know, but really just has to be an IP I can connect with. I have to want to live in the virtual world, so if the IP is too generic (like RIFT) or just plain wrong for me (like most asian mmos) I just won't play it, regardless of features. 


The only game that ever met these requirements was LotRO, however it flip-flopped on the horizontal progression. For vanilla, it had horizontal gear progression at endgame. For mines of moria and mirkwood, it switched to vertical (damn radiance) and nearly killed the raiding scene. It did switch back to horizontal for Isenguard but by that point, the quality had dropped massively and content was sparse.


Luckily, there is one game on the horizon that will meet my needs: Camelot Unchained.  

Camelot Unchained seems to fit your 4 requirements, so there's hope for you.

ragz45

cantankerousmage said:

Neverwinter sucks (because of its EQ/WoW-style endgame grind), but it's still better than any other MMORPG out there right now.  

I literally fell on the floor laughing when I read this, I can't thank you enough for the laugh for the day.    ESO and GW2 are both action combat and mountains beyond NW.  Literally... they actually have mountains you can scale in them and NW doesn't.  

ZionBane

cameltosis said:

For my personal preferences, there is nothing on the market right now that meets my needs and there hasn't been anything for years. At the risk of turning into kopo, its been a little over 4 years since I last committed to an MMO - I've beta tested or trialed quite a few since then, but none have met my needs. 

I have 4 minimum requirements for an MMO, based on examining what I liked and didn't like from all previous MMOs:

1) Deep combat system - if I'm going to be playing a game for years, the combat has to be deep enough to keep me interested. This can be somewhat mitigated by a deep meta-game. Sticking with the holy-trinity is also a turnoff as I find it too limiting when it comes to strategy. 

2) Horizontal Progression - at a minimum, endgame progression needs to be horizontal, but I'd prefer the whole game to be. Despite the fact that I'm pretty much always at the top of the power curve, I hate power gaps. I'm all about grouping, so anything that segregates the community is a big no-no for me.

3) Objective-based open world pvp - this is my absolute favourite activity. I love fighting over keeps and objectives, I love fights involving 50+ people. I love roaming in small groups to disrupt reinforcements or ninja'ing objectives. 

4) Strong IP - Preferably something I already know, but really just has to be an IP I can connect with. I have to want to live in the virtual world, so if the IP is too generic (like RIFT) or just plain wrong for me (like most asian mmos) I just won't play it, regardless of features. 


The only game that ever met these requirements was LotRO, however it flip-flopped on the horizontal progression. For vanilla, it had horizontal gear progression at endgame. For mines of moria and mirkwood, it switched to vertical (damn radiance) and nearly killed the raiding scene. It did switch back to horizontal for Isenguard but by that point, the quality had dropped massively and content was sparse.


Luckily, there is one game on the horizon that will meet my needs: Camelot Unchained.  

Have you played GW2? It has a WvW game mode, that auto-levels you to 80th, so the combat is fair, it does have leveling and progression, but, they are pretty easy to get, and don't amount to a whole lot as far as the WvW goes.

Since GW2 is currently F2P, you got nothing to lose by giving it a try, and seeing if it is what you are looking for.

cantankerousmage

ragz45 said:

cantankerousmage said:

Neverwinter sucks (because of its EQ/WoW-style endgame grind), but it's still better than any other MMORPG out there right now.  

I literally fell on the floor laughing when I read this, I can't thank you enough for the laugh for the day.    ESO and GW2 are both action combat and mountains beyond NW.  Literally... they actually have mountains you can scale in them and NW doesn't.  

You can't play action combat in GW2 unless you buy the expansion.  Thorns or w/e.  I don't know about ESO.  I can check it out and see if you're telling your truth or not.  Wait, nvm, I'm not gonna pay another game company a dime again just so I can spin on hamster wheels and chase cheese like a frickin rodent.

cantankerousmage

ESO, BDO, Wildstar, Skyforge, and FF XIV I haven't tried because I don't want to.  They offer me nothing new.  Just stupid thememparks.  BDO may be kind of a sandbox, but the pvp sucks.  You can't use vertical level progression and gear progression pve system for pvp.  It's stupid.

cantankerousmage

Neverwinter is still garbage though.  It's just a less smelly piece of garbage than the pieces of garbage you guys play.  And I can play it for free.  I've already spent all the money I'm gonna spend on it for the rest of my life.   $170-180, 9 max level characters,  one of every class, 5 of them with all epic gear, one that has legendary and mythic stuff.  Beat that you noobs.

Also I have a lvl 100 Assassin on EQ2, plus a 95/95 paladin/weaponsmith, and a 95/95 troubadour/alchemist.  Other characters too.

cameltosis

ZionBane said:

cameltosis said:

For my personal preferences, there is nothing on the market right now that meets my needs and there hasn't been anything for years. At the risk of turning into kopo, its been a little over 4 years since I last committed to an MMO - I've beta tested or trialed quite a few since then, but none have met my needs. 

I have 4 minimum requirements for an MMO, based on examining what I liked and didn't like from all previous MMOs:

1) Deep combat system - if I'm going to be playing a game for years, the combat has to be deep enough to keep me interested. This can be somewhat mitigated by a deep meta-game. Sticking with the holy-trinity is also a turnoff as I find it too limiting when it comes to strategy. 

2) Horizontal Progression - at a minimum, endgame progression needs to be horizontal, but I'd prefer the whole game to be. Despite the fact that I'm pretty much always at the top of the power curve, I hate power gaps. I'm all about grouping, so anything that segregates the community is a big no-no for me.

3) Objective-based open world pvp - this is my absolute favourite activity. I love fighting over keeps and objectives, I love fights involving 50+ people. I love roaming in small groups to disrupt reinforcements or ninja'ing objectives. 

4) Strong IP - Preferably something I already know, but really just has to be an IP I can connect with. I have to want to live in the virtual world, so if the IP is too generic (like RIFT) or just plain wrong for me (like most asian mmos) I just won't play it, regardless of features. 


The only game that ever met these requirements was LotRO, however it flip-flopped on the horizontal progression. For vanilla, it had horizontal gear progression at endgame. For mines of moria and mirkwood, it switched to vertical (damn radiance) and nearly killed the raiding scene. It did switch back to horizontal for Isenguard but by that point, the quality had dropped massively and content was sparse.


Luckily, there is one game on the horizon that will meet my needs: Camelot Unchained.  

Have you played GW2? It has a WvW game mode, that auto-levels you to 80th, so the combat is fair, it does have leveling and progression, but, they are pretty easy to get, and don't amount to a whole lot as far as the WvW goes.

Since GW2 is currently F2P, you got nothing to lose by giving it a try, and seeing if it is what you are looking for.

I haven't tried GW2, but I did research it quite a bit during development and post-launch. The IP isn't really my thing, but main turnoff was the combat system. The limited skillbar and spammy nature of combat isn't my thing, every gameplay video I've seen makes it look terrible. 

waynejr2

I am a gamer and have no problem finding game to play.  I am just no limited to some narrow list of games like mmoRPGS

cantankerousmage

Oh, my assassin on EQ2 was only level 45 until a few days ago.  But they're handing out free level increases to lvl 100 right now, one per account.  I logged in the other day and used it on my assassin.

cameltosis

cantankerousmage said:

Anyway, I have no credentials, and I have no real desire to learn programming.  It would probably take me two years or more to get good enough to program a decent game.  But I like to write and I have a lot of ideas.  Oh, I did stop drinking when I played EQ2 for 7 months straight back in 2014.

Whilst programmers are the most needed profession within game development, there is a very good reason: its fucking hard!

I was a programmer myself, have a degree in CompSci and 10 years professional work under my belt. I have a high IQ and yet programming for games is still beyond me. Most of the programming jobs are just super-specialised - either working on engines or toolsets and stuff like that. Making everything work on hundreds of hardware choices, optimising everything....fuck that. It requires an extreme amount of dedication to get good enough to be a games programmer and I never achieved that. Beyond that, its not even an enjoyable job - all the "creative" stuff has already been done by other people, you are simply implementing other peoples ideas to the best of your ability. (can you tell I don't really like programming?!)


Sadly, there is no career path to becoming a games designer, beyond the indie route. The guys designing games (creative leads?) are the same guys who have been doing it for decades. Nearly all of them started out in the indie scene and so know all aspects of building a game, plus have a decent portfolio beneath them. As games have expanded in size, it is no longer possible for a person to have that breadth of experience outside of the indie scene. So, even if you did become a programmer, it is unlikely you'd ever have any creative input into a game. 


The easiest route into a sustainable job within gaming is QA and 3d artist / modeler. 

It is fairly easy to learn how to do 3D modelling. The tools aren't too bad, there are loads of options out there and loads of guides. After a month or two, you'll know the tools so from then, its just a case of practice in order to create better and better models. 

From there, pick a game that allows modding or comes with advanced tools, e.g. Skyrim, Portal etc. Take the skills you learnt and apply them to the game. Build a level for Portal, build a house or a quest in Skyrim. Skyrim (and games like it) are actually really good for getting into the industry - the tools are pretty good but you can show off your modelling skills, art skills as well as some programming skills and creative/story skills. 

This will then give you a portfolio of work, and that is key to entering the industry. 

With a good portfolio, you can apply directly for jobs. 

However, in my experience a lot of the entry level jobs aren't advertised externally, which is where QA comes in. It is now extremely common for people to enter a company through the QA department, and then get promoted from there. It shows you are serious about gaming and gets your name known internally, plus gives you access to those entry level jobs that don't get advertised. 


Doesn't always work out of course. I tried to go this route - I joined a QA team and worked for a AAA company for 6 months. I applied for a data analysis job whilst I was there (making use of my programming skills without actually having to be a programmer :-) ) and got it. Sadly, the COO got fired the week after my provisional offer so all new job hires got put on hold and my QA contract ran out before a new COO was hired :S 

Robsolf

It's not so much that I love so many MMO's, but there are several that I enjoy playing.  I don't really have a mainstay, anymore, though.

cantankerousmage

@cameltosis - Cool.  Thanks for the advice.  I appreciate.  I actually did all the Maya tutorials back in 2004-2005 when my friends and II were seriously planning on starting that company.  They said I was doing better than a lot of the students at their art school with it, and I was starting to model my own designs.  However, I got kicked off the team because of my drinking.  Then I had to get a job working at a warehouse, started drinking more, eventually quit messing around with Maya altogether.  And I no longer have the program.  Still, I understand what you're saying.  Only thing is though, I don't want to work for people that don't know what they're doing.  I posted on this forum last year that you can't make WoW and make Wow money again.  It's not gonna happen.  But they keep trying.  Or maybe they're just too greedy to care.  Or maybe they just can't stand up to the corporations they're working for and tell them the truth.  I don't know.  All I know is that there's not a single MMORPG out there right now that I want to play.  EVE seems alright, but I don't like space.

Kyleran

Phaserlight said:

You don't give enough options; I have a favorite, but I also play whatever else is on the market and am open to trying new games.

There is more variety available today for gamers than at any point in history.

waynejr2 said:

I am a gamer and have no problem finding game to play.  I am just no limited to some narrow list of games like mmoRPGS

If you "play games" then I'll agree, more variety than ever.

However if you are looking to live in a virtual world, not so much.

Couple of indie titles look to be promising, however for now EVE's pretty much it for me.

Sovrath

cantankerousmage said:

Sovrath said:

cantankerousmage said:

Someone rich just needs to buy Cryptic from PWE and put me in charge.  I'll make a better game than anything else you can play right now (or in the near future), that's for sure.

Well then you would probably make a lot of money as there is a lot of money out there for a successful game.

In which case why don't you just enter game development? It would be a no brainer wouldn't it?

The problem is, I totally screwed up my life by being a drunk for over 10 years of my life.  Got booted from the Army way back in 2000 because of it.  Went to some college, but never graduated.  Worked many different jobs.  Started teaching myself programming back in 2004-2005, but didn't keep going with it.  My friends and I were going to start an animation company back then.  Fell through though.  Four of them (artists) are working for Blizzard.  Three have been working there for ten years or more.  I don't talk to them anymore unfortuantely.  I pissed off my former best friend on FB a few years ago by saying something he didn't like (about his treatment of me concerning a girl we were both in love with a long time ago) when I was really depressed. 

Anyway, I have no credentials, and I have no real desire to learn programming.  It would probably take me two years or more to get good enough to program a decent game.  But I like to write and I have a lot of ideas.  Oh, I did stop drinking when I played EQ2 for 7 months straight back in 2014.

Well, sorry about the hassles but good that you turned your life around for a bit.

I do suppose that's the point though. Anyone can say they could make a great game and everyone has ideas. But stepping up to the plate and making it happen is what usually doesn't happen.

the only way for things to get done is for people to get them done.

Phaserlight

Kyleran said:

Phaserlight said:

You don't give enough options; I have a favorite, but I also play whatever else is on the market and am open to trying new games.

There is more variety available today for gamers than at any point in history.

waynejr2 said:

I am a gamer and have no problem finding game to play.  I am just no limited to some narrow list of games like mmoRPGS

If you "play games" then I'll agree, more variety than ever.

However if you are looking to live in a virtual world, not so much.

Couple of indie titles look to be promising, however for now EVE's pretty much it for me.

Ahhh, you went back...

What changed your mind?

Eldurian

I just play Wurm and ArcheAge, and ArcheAge mainly because my other half enjoys it.

Overall the current market is a wasteland, and I'm just kind of contenting myself with the best of what's available while I wait on several titles that look promising to release. My hope is of the several titles I'm waiting on, one will pan out to be pretty good.