Another Kickstarters with grand ideas and dreams.........
I have to agree. Who would want that!
Cause you know the Kickstarter I'm looking to support has none of that! I'm looking for one with rehashed old ideas being put together by a group of depressed individuals who figure the whole thing is just gonna crash and burn anyway, so whats the point in trying!
Ashes of Creation hasn't been advertising for 3 years? 5 years? ( who cares ) past the initial launch date. Please don't compare AoC to that scam SC. It's nowhere near the level of absurdity yet.
I agree. Emphasis on yet.
“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
It's the link to an out of the box solution that was never used in any real world production environment. Again, you did not deploy a MMORPG in an afternoon from a $70 Unity store asset. If you don't see the difference then there is no point in continuing this discussion.
Soooooo you're telling me that you can't see the difference between access to assets today and 10 years ago? That's my illustration. There are plenty of tools available which mitigate the risk and cost significantly. It's like trying to say that COBOL is still the best solution today, and that's why it still lives on. No! It's because that's how people have always done it, so the innovation in server tech is stagnant, and it's because of you, telling people that they need expensive contractors who will implement tried, tested solutions using tired and broken tech.
Has nothing to do with the technology. Networking has physical limitations and those have been known for decades. It does not matter how much Hardware you throw at the problem, the physical limitations of the internet stay the same unless we can develop a stable quantum tunnel network solution. I am talking about the maximum theoretical ping between any 2 points on the globe is 133ms (shortest route, the maximum distance between 2 locations is about 20,000 km).
In the real world, due to routers, switches and firewalls and the fact that cable is not going in a straight line you are looking more than twice that, ~266-300 ms.
Now that we have established that there is no amount of money you can throw at this problem to solve it, all we have left is develop software solutions that mitigate this problem. This is where expertise and customization to your needs kicks in. No out of the box solution does that for you. That is a fact.
I hope this explained it a little better and you understand now that i am not talking about tried and tested solutions, i am talking about fully customized solutions for your specific game, because every game has different requirements and needs different optimizations.
I never said anything about tried and tested solutions at all, in fact i said exactly the opposite, you need specialists that will develop server software for you that works for your game only.
If anything your out of the box "tried, tested solutions using tired and broken tech" is the problem.
“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
Another Kickstarters with grand ideas and dreams.........
I have to agree. Who would want that!
Cause you know the Kickstarter I'm looking to support has none of that! I'm looking for one with rehashed old ideas being put together by a group of depressed individuals who figure the whole thing is just gonna crash and burn anyway, so whats the point in trying!
That is the Kickstater I need! =p
There is a difference between someone pitching me a good game idea backed with a good design document and business plan and someone pitching me that he will revolutionize the genre and showing me pretty videos.
“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
It's the link to an out of the box solution that was never used in any real world production environment. Again, you did not deploy a MMORPG in an afternoon from a $70 Unity store asset. If you don't see the difference then there is no point in continuing this discussion.
Soooooo you're telling me that you can't see the difference between access to assets today and 10 years ago? That's my illustration. There are plenty of tools available which mitigate the risk and cost significantly. It's like trying to say that COBOL is still the best solution today, and that's why it still lives on. No! It's because that's how people have always done it, so the innovation in server tech is stagnant, and it's because of you, telling people that they need expensive contractors who will implement tried, tested solutions using tired and broken tech.
Has nothing to do with the technology. Networking has physical limitations and those have been known for decades. It does not matter how much Hardware you throw at the problem, the physical limitations of the internet stay the same unless we can develop a stable quantum tunnel network solution. I am talking about the maximum theoretical ping between any 2 points on the globe is 133ms (shortest route, the maximum distance between 2 locations is about 20,000 km).
In the real world, due to routers, switches and firewalls and the fact that cable is not going in a straight line you are looking more than twice that, ~266-300 ms.
Now that we have established that there is no amount of money you can throw at this problem to solve it, all we have left is develop software solutions that mitigate this problem. This is where expertise and customization to your needs kicks in. No out of the box solution does that for you. That is a fact.
I hope this explained it a little better and you understand now that i am not talking about tried and tested solutions, i am talking about fully customized solutions for your specific game, because every game has different requirements and needs different optimizations.
I never said anything about tried and tested solutions at all, in fact i said exactly the opposite, you need specialists that will develop server software for you that works for your game only.
If anything your out of the box "tried, tested solutions using tired and broken tech" is the problem.
You said it yourself though, it's been the same for decades. So why would you recreate the wheel? I'll clarify that I'm not saying there won't be specific game requirements, but I will say that you can buy a networking framework that will mitigate this cost significantly. Furthermore, it's a matter of implementing known solutions to your own situation, which won't require a "specialist".
In summary, I'm only saying that the cost and complexity you're getting at is over-stated.
While it is too early to cast any kind of judgement all I can say is that the Unreal engine is not suited for MMORPGs, it's an engine tailored for Shooters so AoC team needs to hire experienced C++ coders to heavily modify the engine and make it viable for an MMO. Will they be able to pull it off? Not really sure they will.
Star Citizen had the same problem, they used another Shooter engine the Cry Engine to make SC and it was a disaster. Not even an experienced developer like Chris Roberts could make it work so not sure how the more inexperienced team of AoC could succeed where Roberts failed.
Personally I think that investing in the game at this point is a waste of money but people are free to do with their money as they wish. So good on the AoC team that was able to sell hot air, because let's face it at the moment there is no game, just some pre-rendered footage made with Unreal stock assets.
If you are so against Kickstarter and/or crowdfunding
Why are you not crusading against Kickstarter itself?
Why are you not in the CoE forums railing against that game?
Why are you targeting only AoC?
My question to you
If you don't agree with me because i don't like a Project you like
Why are you not crusading against other people that don't like this Project?
Why are you not railing against other people that don't like other games you like?
Why are you targeting only me
/sarcasm
I have given arguments to why i think this particular project is in my opinion most likely to fail or produce nothing of value. I have also given arguments and constructive criticism about Kickstarter/Crowdfunding. You either ignored these or since you have no counter arguments, you decided to make this about me and your assumptions about me.
Look up Affirming the consequent to learn what you have done wrong here. Tip: Just because i am against one Kickstarter Project does not mean i am automatically against all of them. I wont even go into the rest of the fallacies you presented here, it's just way too many.
“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
If you are so against Kickstarter and/or crowdfunding
Why are you not crusading against Kickstarter itself?
Why are you not in the CoE forums railing against that game?
Why are you targeting only AoC?
My question to you
If you don't agree with me because i don't like a Project you like
Why are you not crusading against other people that don't like this Project?
Why are you not railing against other people that don't like other games you like?
Why are you targeting only me
/sarcasm
I have given arguments to why i think this particular project is in my opinion most likely to fail or produce nothing of value. I have also given arguments and constructive criticism about Kickstarter/Crowdfunding. You either ignored these or since you have no counter arguments, you decided to make this about me and your assumptions about me.
Look up Affirming the consequent to learn what you have done wrong here. Tip: Just because i am against one Kickstarter Project does not mean i am automatically against all of them. I wont even go into the rest of the fallacies you presented here, it's just way too many.
Thank goodness you signed up. We've been waiting for someone who knows everything and is condescending....
I can't speak for, against, or about Ashes of Creation -- I know absolutely nothing about it.
But I do have to ask. Why they hell is there so much hatred towards independent fundraising? It's been proven effective and you don't have to stand in line to prove to an investor anything that is going to be skeptical and likely not interested in even the subject matter.
This couldn't be proven true or false, but mega corporation develops game that sucks but got these investors and no one complains and that company still makes millions/billions. And independent company/team raises a mil just to develop something and everyone freaks out. The difference still is that the fund raised can turn out to be a better game and the artists can get their message across, unlike the bureaucracy game company that is literally only after your money. Sure, it may end up just as bad as the mega corp games, but there isn't some jackass breathing down their neck.
This game's principals claim to have already secured $30M from "evil" investors to make the core game. (whatever that is)
So much for independence and answering to no one.
The KS is to provide additional content so while we don't know what is contained in the core the KSer is helping confirm what isn't.
Most of the "hatred" for crowd funding comes from well over 4 years of no real successes in the MMORPG space.
Natives are getting restless and a little hostile on over promising and under delivery by most of these teams.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's the link to an out of the box solution that was never used in any real world production environment. Again, you did not deploy a MMORPG in an afternoon from a $70 Unity store asset. If you don't see the difference then there is no point in continuing this discussion.
Soooooo you're telling me that you can't see the difference between access to assets today and 10 years ago? That's my illustration. There are plenty of tools available which mitigate the risk and cost significantly. It's like trying to say that COBOL is still the best solution today, and that's why it still lives on. No! It's because that's how people have always done it, so the innovation in server tech is stagnant, and it's because of you, telling people that they need expensive contractors who will implement tried, tested solutions using tired and broken tech.
Has nothing to do with the technology. Networking has physical limitations and those have been known for decades. It does not matter how much Hardware you throw at the problem, the physical limitations of the internet stay the same unless we can develop a stable quantum tunnel network solution. I am talking about the maximum theoretical ping between any 2 points on the globe is 133ms (shortest route, the maximum distance between 2 locations is about 20,000 km).
In the real world, due to routers, switches and firewalls and the fact that cable is not going in a straight line you are looking more than twice that, ~266-300 ms.
Now that we have established that there is no amount of money you can throw at this problem to solve it, all we have left is develop software solutions that mitigate this problem. This is where expertise and customization to your needs kicks in. No out of the box solution does that for you. That is a fact.
I hope this explained it a little better and you understand now that i am not talking about tried and tested solutions, i am talking about fully customized solutions for your specific game, because every game has different requirements and needs different optimizations.
I never said anything about tried and tested solutions at all, in fact i said exactly the opposite, you need specialists that will develop server software for you that works for your game only.
If anything your out of the box "tried, tested solutions using tired and broken tech" is the problem.
You said it yourself though, it's been the same for decades. So why would you recreate the wheel? I'll clarify that I'm not saying there won't be specific game requirements, but I will say that you can buy a networking framework that will mitigate this cost significantly. Furthermore, it's a matter of implementing known solutions to your own situation, which won't require a "specialist".
In summary, I'm only saying that the cost and complexity you're getting at is over-stated.
No, you either have difficulty to understand what a physical limitation is or your are ignoring the facts. There is no re-creating the wheel for physical networking. Please understand that you can not speed up networking because data can't travel faster unless we develop quantum tunneling and i doubt that this Kickstarter will be able to do this.
Yes you need specialists because developing servers for a client server application is not something ordinary developers learn or have experience in. Most developers don't even know how low level networking protocols work or how to write kernel drivers to optimize frame and packet sizes that will maximize performance for your games requirements.
Please understand that this is not some trivial skill you can learn from "Networking for dummies".
There is no MMORPG that uses Atavism in a real world production environment, why do you think that is the case?
You need to provide some form of evidence of your claim that out of the box solutions are used in real life MMORPG scenarios. I am dying to hear about them.
“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
If you are so against Kickstarter and/or crowdfunding
Why are you not crusading against Kickstarter itself?
Why are you not in the CoE forums railing against that game?
Why are you targeting only AoC?
My question to you
If you don't agree with me because i don't like a Project you like
Why are you not crusading against other people that don't like this Project?
Why are you not railing against other people that don't like other games you like?
Why are you targeting only me
/sarcasm
I have given arguments to why i think this particular project is in my opinion most likely to fail or produce nothing of value. I have also given arguments and constructive criticism about Kickstarter/Crowdfunding. You either ignored these or since you have no counter arguments, you decided to make this about me and your assumptions about me.
Look up Affirming the consequent to learn what you have done wrong here. Tip: Just because i am against one Kickstarter Project does not mean i am automatically against all of them. I wont even go into the rest of the fallacies you presented here, it's just way too many.
Answer to question #1 = It's you thread, I'm not crusading. Is asked you the OP a couple of simple questions.
Answer to question#2 = I don't even know if I will like the game. Search through my post history, I believe I have a total of maybe 3 posts concerning this game.
Answer to question #3 = I'm not targeting you. It's you thread (edit) and it's your accusations (end) Your account was created yesterday and so far your a one trick pony, which I personally find suspicious.
Asking questions is not an attack.
Your free to search my post history. I post many things about many topics. I'm also quite critical about Kickstarter, which my post history will show.
It gets old seeing all the top posts being negative. If you watch their Q&A sessions they all seem very genuine and smart. Either they are all excellent actors or they really are trying their best. Even after kickstarter ends they still plan on doing 2 Q&A sessions a week so all of our questions will be answered in time. IMO if you still doubt then you should just wait and see what they produce.
It's the link to an out of the box solution that was never used in any real world production environment. Again, you did not deploy a MMORPG in an afternoon from a $70 Unity store asset. If you don't see the difference then there is no point in continuing this discussion.
Soooooo you're telling me that you can't see the difference between access to assets today and 10 years ago? That's my illustration. There are plenty of tools available which mitigate the risk and cost significantly. It's like trying to say that COBOL is still the best solution today, and that's why it still lives on. No! It's because that's how people have always done it, so the innovation in server tech is stagnant, and it's because of you, telling people that they need expensive contractors who will implement tried, tested solutions using tired and broken tech.
Has nothing to do with the technology. Networking has physical limitations and those have been known for decades. It does not matter how much Hardware you throw at the problem, the physical limitations of the internet stay the same unless we can develop a stable quantum tunnel network solution. I am talking about the maximum theoretical ping between any 2 points on the globe is 133ms (shortest route, the maximum distance between 2 locations is about 20,000 km).
In the real world, due to routers, switches and firewalls and the fact that cable is not going in a straight line you are looking more than twice that, ~266-300 ms.
Now that we have established that there is no amount of money you can throw at this problem to solve it, all we have left is develop software solutions that mitigate this problem. This is where expertise and customization to your needs kicks in. No out of the box solution does that for you. That is a fact.
I hope this explained it a little better and you understand now that i am not talking about tried and tested solutions, i am talking about fully customized solutions for your specific game, because every game has different requirements and needs different optimizations.
I never said anything about tried and tested solutions at all, in fact i said exactly the opposite, you need specialists that will develop server software for you that works for your game only.
If anything your out of the box "tried, tested solutions using tired and broken tech" is the problem.
You said it yourself though, it's been the same for decades. So why would you recreate the wheel? I'll clarify that I'm not saying there won't be specific game requirements, but I will say that you can buy a networking framework that will mitigate this cost significantly. Furthermore, it's a matter of implementing known solutions to your own situation, which won't require a "specialist".
In summary, I'm only saying that the cost and complexity you're getting at is over-stated.
No, you either have difficulty to understand what a physical limitation is or your are ignoring the facts. There is no re-creating the wheel for physical networking. Please understand that you can not speed up networking because data can't travel faster unless we develop quantum tunneling and i doubt that this Kickstarter will be able to do this.
Yes you need specialists because developing servers for a client server application is not something ordinary developers learn or have experience in. Most developers don't even know how low level networking protocols work or how to write kernel drivers to optimize frame and packet sizes that will maximize performance for your games requirements.
Please understand that this is not some trivial skill you can learn from "Networking for dummies".
There is no MMORPG that uses Atavism in a real world production environment, why do you think that is the case?
You need to provide some form of evidence of your claim that out of the box solutions are used in real life MMORPG scenarios. I am dying to hear about them.
So then all crowdfunded MMOs are doomed. Fuck! Thanks for the info. I'm glad I didn't back this one. I wasn't aware this was such a massive undertaking. It's clear to me now that this is the reason no small budget MMO will ever be delivered.
If you are so against Kickstarter and/or crowdfunding
Why are you not crusading against Kickstarter itself?
Why are you not in the CoE forums railing against that game?
Why are you targeting only AoC?
My question to you
If you don't agree with me because i don't like a Project you like
Why are you not crusading against other people that don't like this Project?
Why are you not railing against other people that don't like other games you like?
Why are you targeting only me
/sarcasm
I have given arguments to why i think this particular project is in my opinion most likely to fail or produce nothing of value. I have also given arguments and constructive criticism about Kickstarter/Crowdfunding. You either ignored these or since you have no counter arguments, you decided to make this about me and your assumptions about me.
Look up Affirming the consequent to learn what you have done wrong here. Tip: Just because i am against one Kickstarter Project does not mean i am automatically against all of them. I wont even go into the rest of the fallacies you presented here, it's just way too many.
Answer to question #1 = It's you thread, I'm not crusading. Is asked you the OP a couple of simple questions.
Answer to question#2 = I don't even know if I will like the game. Search through my post history, I believe I have a total of maybe 3 posts concerning this game.
Answer to question #3 = I'm not targeting you. It's you thread, Your account was created yesterday and so far your a one trick pony, which I personally find suspicious.
Asking questions is not an attack.
Your free to search my post history. I post many things about many topics. I'm also quite critical about Kickstarter, which my post history will show.
I am not interested in a circular argument, your witch hunting or concern trolling. If you can not debate the subject and have to make it about the person that brings forward an argument then all i can say is: Welcome to my blocked list.
“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
So then all crowdfunded MMOs are doomed. Fuck! Thanks for the info. I'm glad I didn't back this one. I wasn't aware this was such a massive undertaking. It's clear to me now that this is the reason no small budget MMO will ever be delivered.
I never said all crowd funded MMOs are doomed.
Yes it is a massive undertaking. I am glad you understand the complexity of creating a MMORPG now.
Can you provide some factual evidence that there are small budget crowd funded MMORPGS that have delivered what they promised. I would love to see them and support them.
“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
So then all crowdfunded MMOs are doomed. Fuck! Thanks for the info. I'm glad I didn't back this one. I wasn't aware this was such a massive undertaking. It's clear to me now that this is the reason no small budget MMO will ever be delivered.
I never said all crowd funded MMOs are doomed.
Yes it is a massive undertaking. I am glad you understand the complexity of creating a MMORPG now.
Can you provide some factual evidence that there are small budget crowd funded MMORPGS that have delivered what they promised. I would love to see them and support them.
That is the thing. Steven said he invested his own money. We don't know how much specifically he invested but he said he has budgeted $30 million. That isn't a small budget and it isn't completely crowd funded. I think it is safe to say they know as well as you how hard MMOs are to make. They specifically mention the other failed kickstarters. They are well aware.
So then all crowdfunded MMOs are doomed. Fuck! Thanks for the info. I'm glad I didn't back this one. I wasn't aware this was such a massive undertaking. It's clear to me now that this is the reason no small budget MMO will ever be delivered.
I never said all crowd funded MMOs are doomed.
Yes it is a massive undertaking. I am glad you understand the complexity of creating a MMORPG now.
Can you provide some factual evidence that there are small budget crowd funded MMORPGS that have delivered what they promised. I would love to see them and support them.
That is the thing. Steven said he invested his own money. We don't know how much specifically he invested but he said he has budgeted $30 million. That isn't a small budget and it isn't completely crowd funded. I think it is safe to say they know as well as you how hard MMOs are to make. They specifically mention the other failed kickstarters. They are well aware.
I think i explained that before, maybe you missed it. Just because someone on the internet says they have $30 million invested into something does not make it true. This is typically what scammers, ponzi schemes and pyramid schemes do. This guy is associated with a pyramid scheme MLM company so i would be very cautious to believe anything this guy says.
As long as there is no evidence in the form of an official financial statement, the 30 million simply do not exist and all we know is that he will have whatever Kickstarter brings in.
You are of cause free to believe him, but your believe does not change the facts.
“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
So then all crowdfunded MMOs are doomed. Fuck! Thanks for the info. I'm glad I didn't back this one. I wasn't aware this was such a massive undertaking. It's clear to me now that this is the reason no small budget MMO will ever be delivered.
I never said all crowd funded MMOs are doomed.
Yes it is a massive undertaking. I am glad you understand the complexity of creating a MMORPG now.
Can you provide some factual evidence that there are small budget crowd funded MMORPGS that have delivered what they promised. I would love to see them and support them.
I don't think that we have a large enough data sample to say anything about crowdfunding and MMOs. What I can say is that I think we are getting there. We've got a few games that are supposed to be entering beta this year, so I think that this could be a pivotal year. All we can say about MMOs is they take a long time, but we already knew that.
So then all crowdfunded MMOs are doomed. Fuck! Thanks for the info. I'm glad I didn't back this one. I wasn't aware this was such a massive undertaking. It's clear to me now that this is the reason no small budget MMO will ever be delivered.
I never said all crowd funded MMOs are doomed.
Yes it is a massive undertaking. I am glad you understand the complexity of creating a MMORPG now.
Can you provide some factual evidence that there are small budget crowd funded MMORPGS that have delivered what they promised. I would love to see them and support them.
I don't think that we have a large enough data sample to say anything about crowdfunding and MMOs. What I can say is that I think we are getting there. We've got a few games that are supposed to be entering beta this year, so I think that this could be a pivotal year. All we can say about MMOs is they take a long time, but we already knew that.
So basically you have no evidence of your claim since none of the games you listed fit the criteria of a small budget crowd funded MMORPG that has delivered what they promised. None of them are even released yet.
Maybe 2017 is the year, maybe 2018. Who knows. I think we can agree that at this point, crowd funded MMORPGS are either failing or still in development.
Let's wait and see, shall we?
PS: Firefall is not a crowd funded MMORPG at all.
“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
So then all crowdfunded MMOs are doomed. Fuck! Thanks for the info. I'm glad I didn't back this one. I wasn't aware this was such a massive undertaking. It's clear to me now that this is the reason no small budget MMO will ever be delivered.
I never said all crowd funded MMOs are doomed.
Yes it is a massive undertaking. I am glad you understand the complexity of creating a MMORPG now.
Can you provide some factual evidence that there are small budget crowd funded MMORPGS that have delivered what they promised. I would love to see them and support them.
I don't think that we have a large enough data sample to say anything about crowdfunding and MMOs. What I can say is that I think we are getting there. We've got a few games that are supposed to be entering beta this year, so I think that this could be a pivotal year. All we can say about MMOs is they take a long time, but we already knew that.
So basically you have no evidence of your claim since none of the games you listed fit the criteria of a small budget crowd funded MMORPG that has delivered what they promised. None of them are even released yet.
Maybe 2017 is the year, maybe 2018. Who knows. I think we can agree that at this point, crowd funded MMORPGS are either failing or still in development.
Let's wait and see, shall we?
PS: Firefall is not a crowd funded MMORPG at all.
Yup, that's really all it is, is a waiting game.
I didn't know Albion Online was a big budget game.
Also, Firefall was crowdfunded because they ran a private crowdfunding campaign through their site. That's where I originally bought into it. I can't speak to what their overall budget was, though.
So then all crowdfunded MMOs are doomed. Fuck! Thanks for the info. I'm glad I didn't back this one. I wasn't aware this was such a massive undertaking. It's clear to me now that this is the reason no small budget MMO will ever be delivered.
I never said all crowd funded MMOs are doomed.
Yes it is a massive undertaking. I am glad you understand the complexity of creating a MMORPG now.
Can you provide some factual evidence that there are small budget crowd funded MMORPGS that have delivered what they promised. I would love to see them and support them.
That is the thing. Steven said he invested his own money. We don't know how much specifically he invested but he said he has budgeted $30 million. That isn't a small budget and it isn't completely crowd funded. I think it is safe to say they know as well as you how hard MMOs are to make. They specifically mention the other failed kickstarters. They are well aware.
I think i explained that before, maybe you missed it. Just because someone on the internet says they have $30 million invested into something does not make it true. This is typically what scammers, ponzi schemes and pyramid schemes do. This guy is associated with a pyramid scheme MLM company so i would be very cautious to believe anything this guy says.
As long as there is no evidence in the form of an official financial statement, the 30 million simply do not exist and all we know is that he will have whatever Kickstarter brings in.
You are of cause free to believe him, but your believe does not change the facts.
Never in the history or future of video game development will you get an official financial statement. That is personal information. I am going off of what he has said. True or not that is all we have to go on. You are going off of your own personal doubts and fears.
Lots of people get suckered into MLM companies. His whole family as a kid was involved. He didn't create the company and he was one of the lucky ones to make money of it. Now at least we benefit from it by getting a good MMO.
You are creating a situation where no one can change your mind so what is the point of arguing with people? Yes I am free to believe him and you are free to not believe him. End of story.
If you are so against Kickstarter and/or crowdfunding
Why are you not crusading against Kickstarter itself?
Why are you not in the CoE forums railing against that game?
Why are you targeting only AoC?
My question to you
If you don't agree with me because i don't like a Project you like
Why are you not crusading against other people that don't like this Project?
Why are you not railing against other people that don't like other games you like?
Why are you targeting only me
/sarcasm
I have given arguments to why i think this particular project is in my opinion most likely to fail or produce nothing of value. I have also given arguments and constructive criticism about Kickstarter/Crowdfunding. You either ignored these or since you have no counter arguments, you decided to make this about me and your assumptions about me.
Look up Affirming the consequent to learn what you have done wrong here. Tip: Just because i am against one Kickstarter Project does not mean i am automatically against all of them. I wont even go into the rest of the fallacies you presented here, it's just way too many.
Thank goodness you signed up. We've been waiting for someone who knows everything and is condescending....
/sarcasm
WTF
Have you ignored all my posts for the last 10 years.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So then all crowdfunded MMOs are doomed. Fuck! Thanks for the info. I'm glad I didn't back this one. I wasn't aware this was such a massive undertaking. It's clear to me now that this is the reason no small budget MMO will ever be delivered.
I never said all crowd funded MMOs are doomed.
Yes it is a massive undertaking. I am glad you understand the complexity of creating a MMORPG now.
Can you provide some factual evidence that there are small budget crowd funded MMORPGS that have delivered what they promised. I would love to see them and support them.
That is the thing. Steven said he invested his own money. We don't know how much specifically he invested but he said he has budgeted $30 million. That isn't a small budget and it isn't completely crowd funded. I think it is safe to say they know as well as you how hard MMOs are to make. They specifically mention the other failed kickstarters. They are well aware.
I think i explained that before, maybe you missed it. Just because someone on the internet says they have $30 million invested into something does not make it true. This is typically what scammers, ponzi schemes and pyramid schemes do. This guy is associated with a pyramid scheme MLM company so i would be very cautious to believe anything this guy says.
As long as there is no evidence in the form of an official financial statement, the 30 million simply do not exist and all we know is that he will have whatever Kickstarter brings in.
You are of cause free to believe him, but your believe does not change the facts.
Never in the history or future of video game development will you get an official financial statement. That is personal information. I am going off of what he has said. True or not that is all we have to go on. You are going off of your own personal doubts and fears.
Lots of people get suckered into MLM companies. His whole family as a kid was involved. He didn't create the company and he was one of the lucky ones to make money of it. Now at least we benefit from it by getting a good MMO.
You are creating a situation where no one can change your mind so what is the point of arguing with people? Yes I am free to believe him and you are free to not believe him. End of story.
It is personal information, and it is often published for anyone to read according to the Sarbanes-Oxley act. It depends on the company size and structure. This legislation happened around the turn of the century thanks to what happened in a few little corps by the names of Enron and WorldCom. Similar legislation has been adopted by many countries around the world, and is considered GAAP.
(Note the "Financial" tab - balance sheets may be downloaded for any so inclined)
Corps like CIG/RSI are not required to report, as they are "privately" held (not publicly traded).
My opinion is that the advent of widespread crowdfunding has blurred the lines somewhat w.r.t. what constitutes a "public" company, and legislation is ponderously catching up to the times.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
I think i explained that before, maybe you missed it. Just because someone on the internet says they have $30 million invested into something does not make it true. This is typically what scammers, ponzi schemes and pyramid schemes do. This guy is associated with a pyramid scheme MLM company so i would be very cautious to believe anything this guy says.
As long as there is no evidence in the form of an official financial statement, the 30 million simply do not exist and all we know is that he will have whatever Kickstarter brings in.
You are of cause free to believe him, but your believe does not change the facts.
Never in the history or future of video game development will you get an official financial statement. That is personal information. I am going off of what he has said. True or not that is all we have to go on. You are going off of your own personal doubts and fears.
Let's not get lost in the depths of a legal argument and bring forth a shining example of a video game development that actually shared their financials and prove your statement wrong.
Look up Double Fine Adventure. They published their financial statements in detail every month on the backer forums. They published their business plan, design documents and a quarterly filmed documentation including financial meetings.
Unprecedented transparency unlike other project that are claiming transparency (looking at you StarCitizen).
I rest my case.
“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
Comments
I have to agree. Who would want that!
Cause you know the Kickstarter I'm looking to support has none of that! I'm looking for one with rehashed old ideas being put together by a group of depressed individuals who figure the whole thing is just gonna crash and burn anyway, so whats the point in trying!
That is the Kickstater I need! =p
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
In the real world, due to routers, switches and firewalls and the fact that cable is not going in a straight line you are looking more than twice that, ~266-300 ms.
Now that we have established that there is no amount of money you can throw at this problem to solve it, all we have left is develop software solutions that mitigate this problem. This is where expertise and customization to your needs kicks in. No out of the box solution does that for you. That is a fact.
I hope this explained it a little better and you understand now that i am not talking about tried and tested solutions, i am talking about fully customized solutions for your specific game, because every game has different requirements and needs different optimizations.
I never said anything about tried and tested solutions at all, in fact i said exactly the opposite, you need specialists that will develop server software for you that works for your game only.
If anything your out of the box "tried, tested solutions using tired and broken tech" is the problem.
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
You said it yourself though, it's been the same for decades. So why would you recreate the wheel? I'll clarify that I'm not saying there won't be specific game requirements, but I will say that you can buy a networking framework that will mitigate this cost significantly. Furthermore, it's a matter of implementing known solutions to your own situation, which won't require a "specialist".
In summary, I'm only saying that the cost and complexity you're getting at is over-stated.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Will they be able to pull it off?
Not really sure they will.
Star Citizen had the same problem, they used another Shooter engine the Cry Engine to make SC and it was a disaster.
Not even an experienced developer like Chris Roberts could make it work so not sure how the more inexperienced team of AoC could succeed where Roberts failed.
Personally I think that investing in the game at this point is a waste of money but people are free to do with their money as they wish.
So good on the AoC team that was able to sell hot air, because let's face it at the moment there is no game, just some pre-rendered footage made with Unreal stock assets.
If you are so against Kickstarter and/or crowdfunding
Why are you not crusading against Kickstarter itself?
Why are you not in the CoE forums railing against that game?
Why are you targeting only AoC?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
If you don't agree with me because i don't like a Project you like
Why are you not crusading against other people that don't like this Project?
Why are you not railing against other people that don't like other games you like?
Why are you targeting only me
/sarcasm
I have given arguments to why i think this particular project is in my opinion most likely to fail or produce nothing of value. I have also given arguments and constructive criticism about Kickstarter/Crowdfunding. You either ignored these or since you have no counter arguments, you decided to make this about me and your assumptions about me.
Look up Affirming the consequent to learn what you have done wrong here. Tip: Just because i am against one Kickstarter Project does not mean i am automatically against all of them. I wont even go into the rest of the fallacies you presented here, it's just way too many.
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
/sarcasm
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
So much for independence and answering to no one.
The KS is to provide additional content so while we don't know what is contained in the core the KSer is helping confirm what isn't.
Most of the "hatred" for crowd funding comes from well over 4 years of no real successes in the MMORPG space.
Natives are getting restless and a little hostile on over promising and under delivery by most of these teams.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yes you need specialists because developing servers for a client server application is not something ordinary developers learn or have experience in. Most developers don't even know how low level networking protocols work or how to write kernel drivers to optimize frame and packet sizes that will maximize performance for your games requirements.
Please understand that this is not some trivial skill you can learn from "Networking for dummies".
There is no MMORPG that uses Atavism in a real world production environment, why do you think that is the case?
You need to provide some form of evidence of your claim that out of the box solutions are used in real life MMORPG scenarios. I am dying to hear about them.
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
Answer to question#2 = I don't even know if I will like the game. Search through my post history, I believe I have a total of maybe 3 posts concerning this game.
Answer to question #3 = I'm not targeting you. It's you thread (edit) and it's your accusations (end) Your account was created yesterday and so far your a one trick pony, which I personally find suspicious.
Asking questions is not an attack.
Your free to search my post history. I post many things about many topics. I'm also quite critical about Kickstarter, which my post history will show.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
Yes it is a massive undertaking. I am glad you understand the complexity of creating a MMORPG now.
Can you provide some factual evidence that there are small budget crowd funded MMORPGS that have delivered what they promised. I would love to see them and support them.
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
As long as there is no evidence in the form of an official financial statement, the 30 million simply do not exist and all we know is that he will have whatever Kickstarter brings in.
You are of cause free to believe him, but your believe does not change the facts.
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
Actually, here's one using the Atavism engine.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/623310/Arcfall/
Firefall would be another crowdfunded MMO
Albion Online is another.
I don't think that we have a large enough data sample to say anything about crowdfunding and MMOs. What I can say is that I think we are getting there. We've got a few games that are supposed to be entering beta this year, so I think that this could be a pivotal year. All we can say about MMOs is they take a long time, but we already knew that.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Maybe 2017 is the year, maybe 2018. Who knows. I think we can agree that at this point, crowd funded MMORPGS are either failing or still in development.
Let's wait and see, shall we?
PS: Firefall is not a crowd funded MMORPG at all.
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
Yup, that's really all it is, is a waiting game.
I didn't know Albion Online was a big budget game.
Also, Firefall was crowdfunded because they ran a private crowdfunding campaign through their site. That's where I originally bought into it. I can't speak to what their overall budget was, though.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Lots of people get suckered into MLM companies. His whole family as a kid was involved. He didn't create the company and he was one of the lucky ones to make money of it. Now at least we benefit from it by getting a good MMO.
You are creating a situation where no one can change your mind so what is the point of arguing with people? Yes I am free to believe him and you are free to not believe him. End of story.
Have you ignored all my posts for the last 10 years.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Corps like Frontier are required to report:
http://ar2016.frontier.co.uk/
(Note the "Financial" tab - balance sheets may be downloaded for any so inclined)
Corps like CIG/RSI are not required to report, as they are "privately" held (not publicly traded).
My opinion is that the advent of widespread crowdfunding has blurred the lines somewhat w.r.t. what constitutes a "public" company, and legislation is ponderously catching up to the times.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Look up Double Fine Adventure. They published their financial statements in detail every month on the backer forums. They published their business plan, design documents and a quarterly filmed documentation including financial meetings.
Unprecedented transparency unlike other project that are claiming transparency (looking at you StarCitizen).
I rest my case.
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law