A dose of nostalgia...or how I found out how pampered I truely am.

postlarval

I've been playing MMOs for a long time. Nineteen ninety-seven to be exact. In that time I've rolled with every MMO fad and fashion, telling myself that I'm growing up with the genre and things have changed in my life and the lives' of the players that the genre has had to change with them to keep up with out demands. However, a recent experience threw up so many red flags that it bears repeating. I'll only describe three, but it's enough for you to get the picture.

I've been playing ESO mostly with a few forays into GW2 when my guild asks and a beta or two, all the time keeping an eye out for the next new game. Something definitely was missing and that was the feeling of mystery and excitement I felt when playing older MMOs. I decided to go back and play some of the older games and see if I could recapture the magic.

First up: Ultima Online. This was my first MMO and I remember how much fun I had playing it. In it's current state, it's just a shell of what it used to be and I was surprised to see some of the more modern mechanics added to the game to make it "easier". Three days and I uninstalled.

Next up: Dark Age of Camelot: The second MMO I played back in the day. I purchased a month of time and installed. First thing I noticed was the game feels the same, but there are no people. I wandered everywhere, including RvR but nada...nothing...no one. Well, very few but you get the picture. The lack of players is what did it for me. One week and I uninstalled.

Third time's a charm right?: World of Warcraft. No. Sorry. One day. Uninstalled. It's not even close to the game I remember from 2004-2006 when I played. It feels more like an amusement park. A billion different types of currency. A billion different things to do that have no cohesion whatsoever.

I decided to try one more, Everquest II...it's free to play, right? What's the harm?

This is where things changed. First I had trouble finding my old characters but with a bit of effort I solved it. I logged in and it felt very much like the same game. There were some new things that were different, but I wasn't ready to explore them just yet, so off I went looking for something to do.

I found a pirate on a dock. She had a feather over her head and I thought, "Right! That means she has something for me to do." I spoke with her and she offered me a quest. I clicked Accept and then...

Wait. Shit. No markers telling me where to go. No arrows. Nothing. I'm going to have to read the quest text.

Red Flag #1: Modern MMOs have so many visual guides about where to go and what to do that you don't have to read quest text anymore. We've become so accustomed to the "click, go, and collect" mindset that we bypass all the good bits.

OK. Read the text. Go north and find a ship. Hmmm...only water to the north so it must be a sunken ship. Back to the quest text. Yep. It's a sunken ship.

So I dive into the water and start looking. Nothing anywhere. No ship to be found. Now I have to surface because I'm running out of air. A few more tries and I'm thinking, "There has to be an easier way to do this."

I vaguely remember I used to be able to swim underwater for longer periods of time so there must be a skill or something. No skill. In desperation I open up my inventory to find some breathing "masks" that give me thirty minutes underwater. Re-reading the quest text confirms it. Must stop skimming the quest text.

Mask on. Back to the sea. Swimming north.

Nothing. No sunken ship. A few boards here and there but no ship! WTF!!!

A third read confirms it. The WRECKAGE of a sunken ship. Must stop skimming AND pay attention to the quest text. I swim over to the wreckage.

Ding! Ding! Ding! You have found the ship! Yay! Now I need to find a chest and get the contents.

There are several chests but nothing happens when I click on them. My first thought is, "Crap! the quest is broken!"

Red Flag #2: We are so used to getting everything handed to us on a plate and so entitled to being successful the first time that it never occurs to us there might be a trick or puzzle to figure out. You know, like having to think about it.

I look further. One of the chests over in the distance is slightly different. I swim over and open it. A monster appears. I kill him and then head back to the dock to turn in this very long quest.

As I approach the dock, my NPC has no red book over her head. What happened? Am I supposed to talk to someone else? Again, "This quest must be broken!"

Another trip to the quest text gives me no information other than I still need to loot the chest. Swimming back I realize that I TRIED to open the chest and the monster appeared. I had to kill him and open it again to get the contents. Must stop skimming, start paying attention, AND read text feedback in the chat window. Scrolling back proves it. See Red Flag #2 for reasons.

I finally make it back to the NPC and turn in the quest. Yay! Done! Now to sell off the crap I gathered along the way.

I walk up to a vendor and click...

"This merchant won't to business with you." WTF? I'm the hero. Everyone loves me and wants to help me, dammit!

Um, not in EQ II they don't because YOU ARE NOT A HERO.

Red Flag #3: Modern games have to support the other two red flags because they place you in a hero's role. Failing would be out of place for a hero. Sorry. Not to mention that our egos have seemingly become more fragile over time where we can't deal with failure. Modern games capitalize on it.

That's enough for today. As I log off, I realize that I ACTUALLY feel like I accomplished something and EARNED my loot. Something I haven't felt in a long time.

I also realized that the old feeling I had playing EQ II for the first time was still there. It hadn't gone away.

So what happens next?

Well, I'm putting ESO on the back burner for a while and trying my hand at EQ II again. Don't get me wrong. It's far from perfect. The client crashes, there is some graphic weirdness, support sucks, and some of the newer features don't sit well with me, but overall it's a far better MMO experience than I've had in a long time. Kudos to the nostalgia factor and to EQ II for breaking me out of my modern MMO slumber.

MightyUnclean

I never have gotten EQ2 to run quite right, even on a modern system.  Still, the game is charming every time I play it for a few weeks.

Did you play the original EQ?  On the progression servers, you get a reasonable representation of the original experience.  The good news is, people are still very social, even when grouped.  You can always find someone to chat with, if that's your thing.  It's mine.

Scorchien

EQ 2 is always a fun time ... Glad you are enjoying it

postlarval

MightyUnclean said:

I never have gotten EQ2 to run quite right, even on a modern system.  Still, the game is charming every time I play it for a few weeks.

Did you play the original EQ?  On the progression servers, you get a reasonable representation of the original experience.  The good news is, people are still very social, even when grouped.  You can always find someone to chat with, if that's your thing.  It's mine.

I did not play the original, except for a few weeks. I went from DAoC to WoW. Based on what I've read, I probably should regret that.

Kyleran

You played the wrong version of DAOC, everyone's over on the freeshard these days, several thousand online almost all of the time.

MightyUnclean

postlarval said:

MightyUnclean said:

I never have gotten EQ2 to run quite right, even on a modern system.  Still, the game is charming every time I play it for a few weeks.

Did you play the original EQ?  On the progression servers, you get a reasonable representation of the original experience.  The good news is, people are still very social, even when grouped.  You can always find someone to chat with, if that's your thing.  It's mine.

I did not play the original, except for a few weeks. I went from DAoC to WoW. Based on what I've read, I probably should regret that.

There's a new progression server about to launch.  Get in there and get your socialization and nostalgia on!

postlarval

Kyleran said:

You played the wrong version of DAOC, everyone's over on the freeshard these days, several thousand online almost all of the time.

I thought about it but I'm more of a long-term player and didn't want to put in a lot of effort only to have it shut down in the short-term.

postlarval

MightyUnclean said:

postlarval said:

MightyUnclean said:

I never have gotten EQ2 to run quite right, even on a modern system.  Still, the game is charming every time I play it for a few weeks.

Did you play the original EQ?  On the progression servers, you get a reasonable representation of the original experience.  The good news is, people are still very social, even when grouped.  You can always find someone to chat with, if that's your thing.  It's mine.

I did not play the original, except for a few weeks. I went from DAoC to WoW. Based on what I've read, I probably should regret that.

There's a new progression server about to launch.  Get in there and get your socialization and nostalgia on!

I'll check it out!

Dullahan

Some good observations. Mystery is definitely an element that has been long missing from MMOs. That is a big part of keeping people playing and interacting with the world. I'm of the belief that if you can complete a quest without actually reading what they are telling you, they're doing it wrong.

It's also funny because most of us felt EQ2 betrayed the challenge, mystery and discovery of the original. Still, by today's standards, it's a breath of fresh air.

I'm hoping Pantheon's Perception System will succeed in bringing back that sense of mystery that makes the game world feel meaningful once again.

SEANMCAD

I found EQ2 to be frustratingly to easy and hand holdy for me

Kyleran

postlarval said:

Kyleran said:

You played the wrong version of DAOC, everyone's over on the freeshard these days, several thousand online almost all of the time.

I thought about it but I'm more of a long-term player and didn't want to put in a lot of effort only to have it shut down in the short-term.

Same team has been running this freeshard since 2004 I believe. They took it down back in late 2014 and rebuilt it in a more classic 1.69 ruleset. (just about when SI launched)

Relaunched early this year to great success and rapidly upgraded their infrastructure to accomodate over 4K online at one time 

Still averaging 1500 to 2500 online depending on time of day (strongest in EU primetime) and I don't see them taking it down any time in the next few years.

Unless they decide to roll out the full SI lands and gear.  Right now all we access to is SI core classes.  But maybe someday?

In fact this server could very well outlast anything hosted by Daybreak, really is a labor of love for this team.

Ping me if you want more details.

One more thing, whatever you do don't roll a "filthy Mid", too many of them still running around, people view them as easy mode based on the ruleset.

Hawkaya399

I tried Everquest 2 for a while and liked the quests. Some things bothered me about it, but I won't go too deeply. But something did finally get under my skin and make me run. I was doing a quest and put up my map for some direction. There I noticed--for the first time!--icons for the quest I was doing. Somehow I'd never noticed this b4 and I'd done many quests. The icons show you exactly where to go. Now this might not seem big to you, but on top of everything else in Everquest 2, this was like the final punch and kick to my head. I hate hand holding. I henceforth uninstalled.

HOWEVER, I will say one other thing. There's a lot of content in Everquest 2. Some of its problems are mudflation or related temporal issues. The progression server which launched the past year or two looks like it might have addresed some of these issues. I've recommended it in several postings across the internet since it launched. I haven't played it myself, but would highly recommend.

EDIT: I found some information about EQ2 progression server:
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?threads/returning-player-progressive-server-questions.578635/

I went on to play Wurm Online and don't regert a single second. I LOVED Wurm Online. Unlike Everquest 2 i can't recommend because it's too niche. It's more MMO sandbox than MMORPG. In fact, most of your time is spent crafting or building. It has a lot of grind. The grind is felt even more when you join settlements. Still, its PvP server(s) are the most immersive thing I've ever played. It has many ties to EQ and UO in its mechanics. For example, its combat is automatic and it has corpse runs, like EQ. It has boats and player housing and player merchants, like UO.

That said, I'd recommend Wurm Unlimited. It's a one-time purchase version of Wurm Online, allowing you to play offline and make your own server. This allows you to play with much less grind--if that bothers you. There're player servers. You can essentially mod it by changing how it's configured. While it's still not for everyone I have to recommend it for anybody who liked UO and EQ.

Azaron_Nightblade

You should give The Secret World a try if you enjoy quests that require thinking, and a lot of stumbling around to solve. The game isn't without its flaws either, but it does an excellent job with its quests.

Po_gg

Azaron_Nightblade said:

You should give The Secret World a try if you enjoy quests that require thinking, and a lot of stumbling around to solve.

I'd agree with Azaron with waving a huge "TSW rocks!" banner... but can't, since February. TSW is dead, and Legends will be just a lame, cheapo afterthought of the awesome original. It's a real shame, was one of my main games...

TyranusPrime

I agree with many of your assessments, OP.. And now I'm suddenly having a ton of EQ2 flashbacks.. MMOPTSD.. It was in Thundering Steppes wasn't it?? It was an octopus that distracted you wasn't it?? Aaaaaaa!! The memories!! They return!!

Vermillion_Raventhal

Yep convenience features are corrupting.  It's like most things given it becomes as necessary entitlement.  Think of how useful cell phones are but how it can ruin social interactions in person.  Even someone who grew up without cell phones doesn't think they could imagine living without one.  

Social interaction in a MMORPG is now largely an inconvenience as is the world and anything else that gets in the way of loot and instant gratification.  Critical thinking? Nah we need convenience besides everything is posted on YouTube.  

Metrics say we want this stuff.  Just imagine if you were making thr best survival camping experience.  Its a hit and now suits get invovled.  They start placing signs everywhere to get food, water and shelter.  This camp is a stupid big hit.

Now the market is flooded and people won't pay except for the few best.  They now make the experience free but sell food and drinks at high prices and make survival super convenient.

Old campers talk about the old days where you just could camp for a price on the camping forums. New age people say but look the people want this because of metrics.  

Scorchien

Torval said:

That was a fun read. EQ2 is a great game.

FYI - The map does show quest POIs. You might be able to turn that off in settings, but I can't remember for sure. It doesn't show all, and it doesn't show specific lootables like the chest. You can also turn on the golden wisp in options that does give you a trail marker to your quest.

Reading the text is important and there are a lot of little hidden clickies, lootables, and interactive items to move forward. The game doesn't hold your hand even if you use the wisp to get to the general area it still doesn't always bring you right to the item. I use it from time to time when I've spent an hour or two trying to figure something out to make sure I'm in the right area or if I get lost in a dungeon (very easy to get turned around).

One example are rooms with secret doors or clickies to open them.

One thing I love about the game is the rep system. You may not have been able to speak to the vendor but you could eventually earn rep to do so. My character might be a different race from a different city and already be able to talk to your NPC but I couldn't another. I love that.

Lots of cool stuff in the game. I don't like how DBG is running EQ2 though. They keep adding progression servers which has split apart the community across servers. They are a few other things but they're my issues. Have fun with it.

You can filter out all those quest pointers on the map .... Thats what i do .. Also in Lotro ... no names up, No Quest pointers.. no markers on Radar , The options are there to provide a more immersive experience imo .... WHich i really like ...

Distopia

SEANMCAD said:

I found EQ2 to be frustratingly to easy and hand holdy for me

The only incarnation of it I've played was the original, before they changed how class structure worked and many things about combat not too long after release. It certainly wasn't like that then. I don't know how things were after those changes.

 If you tried it recently it would be no surprise if it was extremely easy to start off in. They have a crap ton of Xpacs, and the community is at the top sphere of play. It needs to be easy for new players if they want them to get to where the majority of players are (the same thing was done to LOTRO for the same reason). 

Distopia

Hawkaya399 said:

I tried Everquest 2 for a while and liked the quests. Some things bothered me about it, but I won't go too deeply. But something did finally get under my skin and make me run. I was doing a quest and put up my map for some direction. There I noticed--for the first time!--icons for the quest I was doing. Somehow I'd never noticed this b4 and I'd done many quests. The icons show you exactly where to go. Now this might not seem big to you, but on top of everything else in Everquest 2, this was like the final punch and kick to my head. I hate hand holding. I henceforth uninstalled.

You couldn't just turn that off? IN most games that is optional. 

waynejr2

Distopia said:

SEANMCAD said:

I found EQ2 to be frustratingly to easy and hand holdy for me

The only incarnation of it I've played was the original, before they changed how class structure worked and many things about combat not too long after release. It certainly wasn't like that then. I don't know how things were after those changes.

 If you tried it recently it would be no surprise if it was extremely easy to start off in. They have a crap ton of Xpacs, and the community is at the top sphere of play. It needs to be easy for new players if they want then to get to where the majority of players are (the same thing was done to LOTRO for the same reason). 

I choose EQ2 over Wow at release and I wouldn't call it hand holdy.  Perhaps it depends on what he means by hand holdy.  I left after 2 months to go to wow.  Was also playing city of heroes at the time. 

Mikeha

There are only 2 mmos I have played where I was really immersed in the world. The 1st was Lineage 2 and 2nd was Everquest 2. 

I really enjoyed that game and hope one day the series is revived. 

postlarval

Azaron_Nightblade said:

You should give The Secret World a try if you enjoy quests that require thinking, and a lot of stumbling around to solve. The game isn't without its flaws either, but it does an excellent job with its quests.

I have a lifetime membership in TSW. :-) I stopped playing because I couldn't stand the combat. I'm also a beta tester of Legends. I doubt I'll play when it releases. Not enough changed IMO to make it better, but that's just my opinion.

You're right though. Good quests that make you think. And the atmosphere...one of the best.

delete5230

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Yep convenience features are corrupting.  It's like most things given it becomes as necessary entitlement.  Think of how useful cell phones are but how it can ruin social interactions in person.  Even someone who grew up without cell phones doesn't think they could imagine living without one.  

Social interaction in a MMORPG is now largely an inconvenience as is the world and anything else that gets in the way of loot and instant gratification.  Critical thinking? Nah we need convenience besides everything is posted on YouTube.  

Metrics say we want this stuff.  Just imagine if you were making thr best survival camping experience.  Its a hit and now suits get invovled.  They start placing signs everywhere to get food, water and shelter.  This camp is a stupid big hit.

Now the market is flooded and people won't pay except for the few best.  They now make the experience free but sell food and drinks at high prices and make survival super convenient.

Old campers talk about the old days where you just could camp for a price on the camping forums. New age people say but look the people want this because of metrics.  

" Metrics say we want this stuff "..... Well it's totally WRONG.... when the equation is forced on us ! Its like this :  if we have only apples and no bananas, people will only eat apples... This makes apples look good.

GW2 is the bench mark for auto handed to us.... Just sit back with your coffee and let the game play for you  

Forgrimm

EQ2 was one of the few mmo's where the quests made me feel like I was progressing through an actual storyline.

SEANMCAD

Distopia said:

SEANMCAD said:

I found EQ2 to be frustratingly to easy and hand holdy for me

The only incarnation of it I've played was the original, before they changed how class structure worked and many things about combat not too long after release. It certainly wasn't like that then. I don't know how things were after those changes.

 If you tried it recently it would be no surprise if it was extremely easy to start off in. They have a crap ton of Xpacs, and the community is at the top sphere of play. It needs to be easy for new players if they want them to get to where the majority of players are (the same thing was done to LOTRO for the same reason). 

I first played it the same year it came out, I found it frustrating how areas where locked out until a set level and how the mobs all had very clear color coding to let you know what level it was, it was an immersion killer for me. 
I left but came back because there was nothing I could find in the market that gave me that 'morrowind' feel. 
Then Darkfall came out, and I havent played a AAA title sense.

Xoph

Hmm.. seems like an EQ2 ad to me.  I stopped reading at red flag #1 because you have to read quest text in DAoC too.