I guess concurrent players is what it all comes down to, what exactly does "massively multiplayer" mean in terms of numbers and how many you can interact with.
If a game uses megaservers and instances to let 100,000 online, but never interact with more than 100 at a time is it really a MMO?
No easily agreed upon answer it seems, more your personal preference really.
Depends on the game design in my eyes. A PVP design IMO needs to allow for massive amounts of players in an area. PVE games not so much, in a lot of ways the more that are allowed the more detrimental it gets. Kinda hard to have fun or a challenge when every where you go everything is dead or occupied by another player or group.
That's why I've never really been a fan of hard-line stances based on a numbers game. Especially in the area of concurrency within zones. opening the floodgate isn't always the best design decision. Nor is seeing more people around more important than the integrity of a game's content to me. As long as there are ways to join who you want to join and stick with friends or guilds when needed, I prefer a smaller player count in a PVE zone.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Gee Garrett, your headline says MMO's yet two on the list are clearly not and you omit a bunch of upcoming MMO's like Camelot Unchained, Albion, Linage Eternal, Pantheon, etc. Sorry if I missed one someone likes, there are a lot more. What is up with that?
I know Bill is still trying to classify Destiny II as one, but if you took the time to read the thread we had on that, there was overwhelming agreement is it not even close. Games that require a lobby in no way have anything massive about them.
I think the MMO genre is doing fine, you just have to have some patience, it takes a while to develop these games.
Can't argue with the boss, if he says "DEST2" is a MMO, it's a MMO. (no amount of logic will change this)
Some indefinite number of lost forum views says otherwise.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
It is becoming practically impossible to discuss this genre here due to various definitions of an "MMO".
Ok, so Conan Exiles and Destiny 2 are part of the reason for you why "MMOs" are making a comeback. If we consider these games MMOs, then I do not think we need to be talking about a comeback. This genre has never gone anywhere. You have MOBAs, D3, Overwatch, CSGO, ARK and thousand other "MMOs" that are played by millions of players everyday and are making billions of dollars every year. Comeback from what exactly?
If I were talking about comeback, it would not be in relation to these "MMOs", but rather MMORPGs which have been gone for almost 2 decades now. Now we have games like Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia in development which indicate that there still are some developers who want to make MMORPGs in spite of the fact that they are niche games. That is the real comeback here, not Destiny 2, in my opinion.
I think when they use something like Ark or Exiles in such an example they're talking about game-play systems. Which are much closer to MMORPG game-play systems than they are to MOBAs or anything like that. I guess the reasoning is if people like it on a smaller scale they'd probably like it on a larger one. In short...They're just using it as an example to say people still seek out such game-play.
But still without a clear definition of what constitutes an "MMO", it is hard to assess if the point being made is valid. It would be much easier if it was supported by some numbers.
I understand what you mean by ARK and Exiles being close to MMORPGs in terms of some of the gameplay elements, but the list includes also Destiny 2 which is what...an online shooter?
All I am saying is that based on that list, it is difficult for me to put a finger on what they consider to be an MMO and to assess if that genre is truly making some sort of comeback.
Well Destiny 2 has added in clans, removed having to go to orbit (so seamless travel?), larger zones (how many people?), raid finder. I don't know. At which point do we say this is an MMO? Are we down to concurrent players? Like is that the sole remaining factor?
I do not know . That is why I am saying that it is hard to say whether "MMOs" are truly making a comeback.
It is like if I said that "MMOs are bigger than ever" and put 5 random online multiplayer games in a list.
Sounds like you could write for MMORPG.com.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
<snip> Players are seeking more online experiences through console and mobile gameplay.
Talk about inventing evidence. Because online and mobile play is increasing doesn't in any way equate to the topic of "5 Reasons MMOs are Making a Comeback", at least as far as MMORPGs are concerned. There's no cause-effect relationship here.
With that kind of logic, that premise might as well apply to an article entitled "Buggy Whips are Making a Comeback".
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
<snip> Players are seeking more online experiences through console and mobile gameplay.
Talk about inventing evidence. Because online and mobile play is increasing doesn't in any way equate to the topic of "5 Reasons MMOs are Making a Comeback", at least as far as MMORPGs are concerned. There's no cause-effect relationship here.
With that kind of logic, that premise might as well apply to an article entitled "Buggy Whips are Making a Comeback".
I feel like this is relevant to the comeback of both mmo's and bunny whips.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Let's list a game that dropped out of top 100 played games on steam with 52% posting a positive review for the game in the last 30 days and a grand total of 33 people is watching someone stream it on twitch right now.
Why not pick apollo creed as best boxing comeback for his performance against Ivan Drago.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
It is becoming practically impossible to discuss this genre here due to various definitions of an "MMO".
Ok, so Conan Exiles and Destiny 2 are part of the reason for you why "MMOs" are making a comeback. If we consider these games MMOs, then I do not think we need to be talking about a comeback. This genre has never gone anywhere. You have MOBAs, D3, Overwatch, CSGO, ARK and thousand other "MMOs" that are played by millions of players everyday and are making billions of dollars every year. Comeback from what exactly?
If I were talking about comeback, it would not be in relation to these "MMOs", but rather MMORPGs which have been gone for almost 2 decades now. Now we have games like Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia in development which indicate that there still are some developers who want to make MMORPGs in spite of the fact that they are niche games. That is the real comeback here, not Destiny 2, in my opinion.
I think when they use something like Ark or Exiles in such an example they're talking about game-play systems. Which are much closer to MMORPG game-play systems than they are to MOBAs or anything like that. I guess the reasoning is if people like it on a smaller scale they'd probably like it on a larger one. In short...They're just using it as an example to say people still seek out such game-play.
But still without a clear definition of what constitutes an "MMO", it is hard to assess if the point being made is valid. It would be much easier if it was supported by some numbers.
I understand what you mean by ARK and Exiles being close to MMORPGs in terms of some of the gameplay elements, but the list includes also Destiny 2 which is what...an online shooter?
All I am saying is that based on that list, it is difficult for me to put a finger on what they consider to be an MMO and to assess if that genre is truly making some sort of comeback.
Well Destiny 2 has added in clans, removed having to go to orbit (so seamless travel?), larger zones (how many people?), raid finder. I don't know. At which point do we say this is an MMO? Are we down to concurrent players? Like is that the sole remaining factor?
I guess concurrent players is what it all comes down to, what exactly does "massively multiplayer" mean in terms of numbers and how many you can interact with.
If a game uses megaservers and instances to let 100,000 online, but never interact with more than 100 at a time is it really a MMO?
No easily agreed upon answer it seems, more your personal preference really.
Depends on the game design in my eyes. A PVP design IMO needs to allow for massive amounts of players in an area. PVE games not so much, in a lot of ways the more that are allowed the more detrimental it gets. Kinda hard to have fun or a challenge when every where you go everything is dead or occupied by another player or group.
Unless you're playing "Rush Hour" the MMORPG where you get to interact with tens of thousands of other people in a competitive, hostile, and dangerous environment.
Even in PvP the massive numbers only make sense when it adds to the game play in a meaningful way. Huge zergfest battles in EVE make great headlines though.
Those "zergfest" EVE battles are far more of a ballet than you realize or can appreciate until you do a few.
The logistics and coordination borders on extraordinary sometimes.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Guess MMO.com is changing soon to "everything game site"
Sarcastic, yet tone deaf. MMORPG.com have said officially that they were expanding things. (if I remember correctly. If not, you're correct with your snarky comment). I've said it before and I'll continue on my crusade. This is a dead parrot.
MOBA style combat is not going to save MMOs. May keep people busy for a while, may even have fun. MMOs need interclass dependency. Same with crafting and every area of MMOing. The more we make MMOs single player experiences the more we lose what made MMOs so great. People.
I'm hope these new MMOs have learned from this failing and finds a way to make people need each other. Only thing that will save MMOs. Maybe some of the games above will do just that.
That's the most pathetic list of MMO saviors I have ever seen. Basically it's just Crowfall. The other four are there so you didn't have to name your article "1 reason why mmo's are making a comeback".
That list looks more like two reasons why, one neutral, and two reasons why not...
5. Regardless of how Ashes turns out, their success in KS shows that at the very least there is an audience for large open world sandpark style MMOs.
4. I still can't pin down in my mind what side of the MMO / MOBA spectrum Crowfall lands on, but again, it at least shows that there is an audience for a PvP 'MMO' with persistence longer than 15 minutes.
3. I'll take your word on the success of Conan, but I wouldn't call it an MMO (though it is still a social game in several ways), so that's neutral.
2. Morrowind is DLC for one of the most single player MMOs there is, with its main attraction being more story quests... so does that really show that MMOs are doing well, or just that people enjoy RPGs with a good story?
1. While Destiny 2 is more MMOish than Destiny (I hear it's actually going to have in-game social features, and lore :mind-blown:), all it shows it that people like multiplayer games, not necessarily MMOs. i.e. it's like saying MMOs are fine because MOBAs are doing well.
My personal 2 and 1 would be:
2. Pantheon is making good progress. While not to everyone's tastes, it does seem like it will offer a home to those who have waited so long for a modern EQ style MMO.
1. FFXIV Stormblood. For an MMO that way basically DOA, FFXIV is now going from strength to strength, showing that if you actually put in the effort to make a quality MMO, and continue to support it, there is still a large audience willing to pay a subscription.
ESO hit huge numbers on console this past year by basically giving the game away. I don't think that's a great thing to hail, since it's a clear indication to other developers that they will struggle to rope in players unless they are F2P, or deeply discount their product and hope players buy lots of DLC.
I still think the game is mediocre, particularly on console. They finally got Text Chat implemented a few months back, but they waited so long that most players don't even bother with it. The playerbase is too conditioned to either clique-level communication, or no communication at all. An MMORPG where people communicate less than Diablo III players in PUG GR parties is no fun to play (for me).
I may try FFXIV, though I hate having to jump between Windows and OS X on my Mac... They completely botched their Mac client. What a fail.
I am mostly looking foward to Crowfall on that list though. I do have my eye on Ashes but need to see more real gameplay.
I have no idea how people still get excited for anything related to ESO. The game is just a fed ex quest theme park with an Elder Scrolls skin. I thought we were past these types of games. If it was not for console the game would have died.
Totally LOL article and so inacurate... COnan Exiles & Destiny 2 are no MMOs, but online games with small numbers around you. Ashes of Creation is under development and might take an other 2-3 years to complete and the same goes for Crowfall. The only real MMO there delivering is Morrowind, and that's actually just a DLC pack with 30 hours ot total content and a new class and not a real expansion.
I think this article shows what others on this site have already been yelling for years - MMOs are far past their Golden Age now and dieing slowly...
This reads more like a "My most anticipated MMO's" list than any sort of reasons as to why the MMO genre is making a "comeback".
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
I honestly wonder why 90% of you still come here, it is all doom and gloom and the genre is dead etc. etc. You people really don't enjoy coming here or reading the articles, so why? Why aren't you gone?
and ohh, the list, it is shitty.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I honestly wonder why 90% of you still come here, it is all doom and gloom and the genre is dead etc. etc. You people really don't enjoy coming here or reading the articles, so why? Why aren't you gone?
and ohh, the list, it is shitty.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Now there's an interesting approach, slam "90%" of us.....then agree with us? (that the list is poor?)
Should have at least countered with a list of 5 MMOs that fill you with such "hope" for the genre.
Besides you know full well why we come here, we enjoy dancing over the grave.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Seems to me that Garret is making a desperate attempt to co-opt the term MMO so that it can be generalized beyond all recognition. That's not how it works, fella, but good show... I guess.
Comments
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/That's why I've never really been a fan of hard-line stances based on a numbers game. Especially in the area of concurrency within zones. opening the floodgate isn't always the best design decision. Nor is seeing more people around more important than the integrity of a game's content to me. As long as there are ways to join who you want to join and stick with friends or guilds when needed, I prefer a smaller player count in a PVE zone.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/With that kind of logic, that premise might as well apply to an article entitled "Buggy Whips are Making a Comeback".
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Why not pick apollo creed as best boxing comeback for his performance against Ivan Drago.
The logistics and coordination borders on extraordinary sometimes.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I self identify as a monkey.
I'm hope these new MMOs have learned from this failing and finds a way to make people need each other. Only thing that will save MMOs. Maybe some of the games above will do just that.
5. Regardless of how Ashes turns out, their success in KS shows that at the very least there is an audience for large open world sandpark style MMOs.
4. I still can't pin down in my mind what side of the MMO / MOBA spectrum Crowfall lands on, but again, it at least shows that there is an audience for a PvP 'MMO' with persistence longer than 15 minutes.
3. I'll take your word on the success of Conan, but I wouldn't call it an MMO (though it is still a social game in several ways), so that's neutral.
2. Morrowind is DLC for one of the most single player MMOs there is, with its main attraction being more story quests... so does that really show that MMOs are doing well, or just that people enjoy RPGs with a good story?
1. While Destiny 2 is more MMOish than Destiny (I hear it's actually going to have in-game social features, and lore :mind-blown:), all it shows it that people like multiplayer games, not necessarily MMOs. i.e. it's like saying MMOs are fine because MOBAs are doing well.
My personal 2 and 1 would be:
2. Pantheon is making good progress. While not to everyone's tastes, it does seem like it will offer a home to those who have waited so long for a modern EQ style MMO.
1. FFXIV Stormblood. For an MMO that way basically DOA, FFXIV is now going from strength to strength, showing that if you actually put in the effort to make a quality MMO, and continue to support it, there is still a large audience willing to pay a subscription.
I still think the game is mediocre, particularly on console. They finally got Text Chat implemented a few months back, but they waited so long that most players don't even bother with it. The playerbase is too conditioned to either clique-level communication, or no communication at all. An MMORPG where people communicate less than Diablo III players in PUG GR parties is no fun to play (for me). I may try FFXIV, though I hate having to jump between Windows and OS X on my Mac... They completely botched their Mac client. What a fail.
I am mostly looking foward to Crowfall on that list though. I do have my eye on Ashes but need to see more real gameplay.
I have no idea how people still get excited for anything related to ESO. The game is just a fed ex quest theme park with an Elder Scrolls skin. I thought we were past these types of games. If it was not for console the game would have died.
I think this article shows what others on this site have already been yelling for years - MMOs are far past their Golden Age now and dieing slowly...
They got to get paid even if it means embarrassing themselves.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
and ohh, the list, it is shitty.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Should have at least countered with a list of 5 MMOs that fill you with such "hope" for the genre.
Besides you know full well why we come here, we enjoy dancing over the grave.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon