On Combat

Consuetudo

MMOs promise virtual worlds; MMOs are single player combat simulators with some multiplayer elements. I find this to be a problem. While combat is pretty central to games, how often do you engage in combat? How often did a medieval peasant--hell, how often did a medieval knight engage in combat? Practically never. 

"But only combat is exciting." 

That is simply not true, and this is the mindset crippling the genre. I am interested in culture, worldbuilding, the growth and death of societies. Combat is just a small fraction of this process. I want to be involved in a community, in a city, in a progressing cultural unit that demands natural socialization between people working towards a common goal without any gimmicky forced socialization. Essentially, what societal growth was really like. This would be thrilling to me, far more thrilling than being told I'm a hero saving the world when realistically I could not play the game and the world would be the same if I completed every challenge and was told by the game that I'm a massive hero.

sunandshadow

It might be more reasonable to ask "How often does a ninja in Naruto engage in combat?" or "How often does an average superhero engage in combat?"  It's still not constantly, but the average player is looking for this higher percentage of combat.  And I say that as a player who loves non-combat activities from minigames to crafting and pet breeding.  The people who actually want to be something as slow-paced and non-prestigeous as a medieval peasant are probably already playing Life is Feudal.

waynejr2

Consuetudo said:

MMOs promise virtual worlds;

Where was this promise made and by whom and for what game?  I feel mmoRPGs (not mearly mmos) should be but never ever have I heard about a promise of such.

laxie

I definitely agree. I'm a person who loves the social aspect of MMOs, the interactions and seeing community growth.

The current trends seem to be in the opposite direction though. People seem to enjoy very straight-forward streamlined gameplay. Designing intricate simulations that let players macro manage the environment are probably a very niche concept.

That said, perhaps there is a way to design a streamlined social experience. Something where you do simple tasks and see the community flourish around you.

One major obstacle is poor overall retention of players. People seem to change games very often these days, so any game that requires a stable community runs into issues.

Eldurian

sunandshadow said:

It might be more reasonable to ask "How often does a ninja in Naruto engage in combat?" or "How often does an average superhero engage in combat?"  It's still not constantly, but the average player is looking for this higher percentage of combat.  And I say that as a player who loves non-combat activities from minigames to crafting and pet breeding.  The people who actually want to be something as slow-paced and non-prestigeous as a medieval peasant are probably already playing Life is Feudal.

Or Wurm, or Runescape, or a RP server on most MMOs. I know the RP servers I've seen in themeparks seem to have a lot of people who don't seem to focus leveling at all.

Consuetudo

Eldurian said:

sunandshadow said:

It might be more reasonable to ask "How often does a ninja in Naruto engage in combat?" or "How often does an average superhero engage in combat?"  It's still not constantly, but the average player is looking for this higher percentage of combat.  And I say that as a player who loves non-combat activities from minigames to crafting and pet breeding.  The people who actually want to be something as slow-paced and non-prestigeous as a medieval peasant are probably already playing Life is Feudal.

Or Wurm, or Runescape, or a RP server on most MMOs. I know the RP servers I've seen in themeparks seem to have a lot of people who don't seem to focus leveling at all.

Traditional roleplaying is a start but it's not what these games revolve around.

NPCPak

I have to agree with this topic's concept. There is so much that could be made inside the virtual world that could give more engaging social aspects to really make it feel like a community and a MMO. I believe that if we want be successful in a MMO, we should work on creating concepts until we find one that works instead of re-using ideas that didn't fulfill it's purpose. As of now, the majority of our MMOs are just re-used concepts of other developer's ideas with are mainly focused on the combat aspect then the other aspects that brought players together. I just like to see something change for this genre, something that would bring all players alike together.

ZionBane

Consuetudo said:

MMOs promise virtual worlds; MMOs are single player combat simulators with some multiplayer elements. I find this to be a problem. While combat is pretty central to games, how often do you engage in combat? How often did a medieval peasant--hell, how often did a medieval knight engage in combat? Practically never. 

If you replace combat with Conflict.. the ratio would skyrocket.. the only difference is that the peasant or knight faces very real death from combat, so they first seek peaceful resolve.

Now imagine if that Knight knew that if they died, they would just be reborn seconds later, suddenly death holds little to no fear for them and (loss is just a matter of pain) thus.. Combat.. would be a far more acceptable solution to any conflict.

Just a thought to ponder.

Eldurian

Consuetudo said:

Eldurian said:

sunandshadow said:

It might be more reasonable to ask "How often does a ninja in Naruto engage in combat?" or "How often does an average superhero engage in combat?"  It's still not constantly, but the average player is looking for this higher percentage of combat.  And I say that as a player who loves non-combat activities from minigames to crafting and pet breeding.  The people who actually want to be something as slow-paced and non-prestigeous as a medieval peasant are probably already playing Life is Feudal.

Or Wurm, or Runescape, or a RP server on most MMOs. I know the RP servers I've seen in themeparks seem to have a lot of people who don't seem to focus leveling at all.

Traditional roleplaying is a start but it's not what these games revolve around.

Try Wurm then. If you can get over the graphics and the fact it has stale/uninspired combat then it's the best MMO on the entire market IMO. I see a lot of people who have been playing for months and failed to bother with combat long enough to raise it to the basic level of any competent fighter. (70 fightskill. Only takes a day or two of hard grinding to reach, after which progress falls off dramatically.)

Consuetudo

Eldurian said:

Consuetudo said:

Eldurian said:

sunandshadow said:

It might be more reasonable to ask "How often does a ninja in Naruto engage in combat?" or "How often does an average superhero engage in combat?"  It's still not constantly, but the average player is looking for this higher percentage of combat.  And I say that as a player who loves non-combat activities from minigames to crafting and pet breeding.  The people who actually want to be something as slow-paced and non-prestigeous as a medieval peasant are probably already playing Life is Feudal.

Or Wurm, or Runescape, or a RP server on most MMOs. I know the RP servers I've seen in themeparks seem to have a lot of people who don't seem to focus leveling at all.

Traditional roleplaying is a start but it's not what these games revolve around.

Try Wurm then. If you can get over the graphics and the fact it has stale/uninspired combat then it's the best MMO on the entire market IMO. I see a lot of people who have been playing for months and failed to bother with combat long enough to raise it to the basic level of any competent fighter. (70 fightskill. Only takes a day or two of hard grinding to reach, after which progress falls off dramatically.)

I can't get past the graphics or the feeling, but I understand that Wurm offers a lot more than combat and I applaud it for that purpose.

Eldurian

Well then I'm afraid you're in the same boat as me. Most of the games I am waiting for have promised in depth economies. For instance in Star Citizen you should be able to make an entire career out of racing, trading, or exploration. I know I put in a lot of hours trading and smuggling in Chris Robert's last game and it didn't even have half the depth.

Crowfall has similarly promised you can play the entire game as a crafter and still be very useful to your team, though you at least have to be ok with the idea of PvPers attacking you.

Life is Feudal has great crafting system. It's depth isn't Wurm levels but it seems to have borrowed many elements from Wurm. And it actually has decent graphics, actual combat, and tile sizes for terraforming smaller than a football field. 

Chronicles of Elyria is the one I'm least familiar with that I'm following but the crafting seems to have depth from initial impressions. Depth in crafting usually corresponds with the ability to make it an engaging career.

The only other game I think I could recommend at the moment is Mortal Online. Mortal Online has massive crafting depth. For instance it has a breeding system for animals where through enough breeding you can get animals better than anything you would tame in the wild. The materials of any item are also hugely important to how the item performs and there are many, many options as far as materials go. It is an Open World Full Loot PvP game so if you can't deal with that then it's going to be a no-go for you but most of the issues I had with it were more related to combat than crafting, so you may actually enjoy it more than I did.

InebriatedSkunk

One game you might want to check out is Camelot Unchained, made by the creator of DAoC. It has what you're looking for, and dispite it being a self-described "niche game," It has something for a lot of players. The game will have dedicated crafting classes, and absolutely everything is made by the players. It also has great combat for those players who like that, and everything made by crafters goes to the RvR war effort, be it tools, buildings, clothes, materials, and everything else. While you may make a career out of crafting finely tuned, personally stamped quality goods, you might never have to see combat, so long as your trade routes are intact.

13thBen

waynejr2 said:

Consuetudo said:

MMOs promise virtual worlds;

Where was this promise made and by whom and for what game?  I feel mmoRPGs (not mearly mmos) should be but never ever have I heard about a promise of such.

As far as I know MMO's didn't promise Virtual World? Maybe an amazing gameplay experience.