If we are talking about if PvE only and PvP only players in numbers would both love the same game I fear that is unlikely, at least the way current MMOs are made.
On different servers, yes but you still have the problem with content, devs can just make so much and making so different content means less for everyone who doesn't enjoy both.
There is also balance, powergap and gear dependency. Balancing for one or the other messes things up. PvErs generally want a huge powergap and and lots of gear tiers, those things hurt the PvP.
So while it certainly is possible to make both sides happy I ain't sure it is worth it. A game focusing all it's resources on one or the other will be far better then one doing 50/50.
I think a huge part of the problem that makes PvP far less popular then PvE among MMOers is that they always try to compromize (but usually gives PvEers 75% or more of the content). A good PvP game needs it's specific mechanics, motivations and so on.
Nowadays many games try to split up mechanics with some PvP or PvE only things but it is far too little to be good enough.
Pick one or the other and make an awesome game for it (myself, I like either). Unless you got an insane amount of money and can walk that tightrope.
My point was all western MMOs are following a longterm trend of decline. DDO included though based on the graph it seems it's kind of just bottomed out and is making no substantial changes in either direction beyond general fluctuations. Average players in the 200s and peaks in the 400s doesn't make it a very big mover and shaker either way though. Assuming there is more than that outside Steam but that's still pretty small.
Lets face facts, PvE players like levels, they like gaining and questing after special and powerful gear, they like the power creep, and they want to feel distinctly more powerful as they play.
Levels, Power Disparity, and Gear Grind.. suck for PvP games.
2. No you like those things, and you are a PvEer. You want proof there are millions of PvEers who don't need stat progression to enjoy a game? Minecraft. Enough said.
Once again, @Eldurian, you are showing everyone how wrong you can be.
@Zionbane did not say stat progression, but you say stat progression does not exist in Minecraft, as a way to make his statement invalid.
Level's exist in Minecraft, gear progression exist's in Minecraft, so actually, there are million's of Minecraft player's that support what Zionbane said.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Lets face facts, PvE players like levels, they like gaining and questing after special and powerful gear, they like the power creep, and they want to feel distinctly more powerful as they play.
Levels, Power Disparity, and Gear Grind.. suck for PvP games.
2. No you like those things, and you are a PvEer. You want proof there are millions of PvEers who don't need stat progression to enjoy a game? Minecraft. Enough said.
Once again, @Eldurian, you are showing everyone how wrong you can be.
@Zionbane did not say stat progression, but you say stat progression does not exist in Minecraft, as a way to make his statement invalid.
Level's exist in Minecraft, gear progression exist's in Minecraft, so actually, there are million's of Minecraft player's that support what Zionbane said.
Nobody on these boards has said they want no progression period, PvPers included.
Levels are used to enchant things. They don't make you stronger, they're essentially a consumable resource unless they've changed how the game works dramatically in the last couple years.
Gear degrades to nothing over time and can be lost when you die.
That's temporary power ups. Not any kind of vertical progression anymore than Mario grabbing a star or a mushroom is. And you can get diamond everything in like less than day of play.
Hell the friends who were hyping up Minecraft before it's release were talking about how much they wanted to play it precisely because it did lack any kind of traditional progression.
Also ZionBane specifically stated:
"PvE players like levels, they like gaining and questing after special and powerful gear, they like the power creep, and they want to feel distinctly more powerful as they play."
So unless he's talking about Minecraft levels you can use to enchant gear, and gear that goes away the moment you die, then he's talking about stat gain. And power creep isn't possible in a game without stat gains.
Lets face facts, PvE players like levels, they like gaining and questing after special and powerful gear, they like the power creep, and they want to feel distinctly more powerful as they play.
Levels, Power Disparity, and Gear Grind.. suck for PvP games.
2. No you like those things, and you are a PvEer. You want proof there are millions of PvEers who don't need stat progression to enjoy a game? Minecraft. Enough said.
Once again, @Eldurian, you are showing everyone how wrong you can be.
@Zionbane did not say stat progression, but you say stat progression does not exist in Minecraft, as a way to make his statement invalid.
Level's exist in Minecraft, gear progression exist's in Minecraft, so actually, there are million's of Minecraft player's that support what Zionbane said.
Nobody on these boards has said they want no progression period, PvPers included.
Levels are used to enchant things. They don't make you stronger, they're essentially a consumable resource unless they've changed how the game works dramatically in the last couple years.
Gear degrades to nothing over time and can be lost when you die.
That's temporary power ups. Not any kind of vertical progression anymore than Mario grabbing a star or a mushroom is. And you can get diamond everything in like less than day of play.
Hell the friends who were hyping up Minecraft before it's release were talking about how much they wanted to play it precisely because it did lack any kind of traditional progression.
And how does anything you just responded with contradict my post?
Nice try though.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
My point was all western MMOs are following a longterm trend of decline. DDO included though based on the graph it seems it's kind of just bottomed out and is making no substantial changes in either direction beyond general fluctuations. Average players in the 200s and peaks in the 400s doesn't make it a very big mover and shaker either way though. Assuming there is more than that outside Steam but that's still pretty small.
As few devs publish any sort of meaningful data its difficult to know if western MMOs such as ESO, LOL, Overwatch or BDO are trending upwards or down. Most claim to be doing great but who can really say?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
2. No you like those things, and you are a PvEer. You want proof there are millions of PvEers who don't need stat progression to enjoy a game? Minecraft. Enough said.
Once again, @Eldurian, you are showing everyone how wrong you can be.
@Zionbane did not say stat progression, but you say stat progression does not exist in Minecraft, as a way to make his statement invalid.
Level's exist in Minecraft, gear progression exist's in Minecraft, so actually, there are million's of Minecraft player's that support what Zionbane said.
I dunno, I don't think people play Minecraft for progression but more to build stuff. And there is always "Myst".
It certainly is hard to make a game that have fun PvE and little progression (personally did I like Guildwars there, it had progression but very limited such).
It is way harder to keep the players going just for fun instead of bribing them with new loot and new skills but I don't think it is impossible.
Just because people play one type of game, dose not mean they don't like other types.
Ergo, just because people play Mincraft, does not invalidate that they like levels, power, and progression. Just as I played the Sims, and played EQ, at the same time, playing the sims in no way diminished my enjoyment of leveling up and farming gear in EQ.
So, to prove me wrong you would need to have some way to validate that it was the progression system of Minecraft that was what people wanted.. and not.. oh something else, like the ability to host your own server and make massive custom worlds.
My point was all western MMOs are following a longterm trend of decline. DDO included though based on the graph it seems it's kind of just bottomed out and is making no substantial changes in either direction beyond general fluctuations. Average players in the 200s and peaks in the 400s doesn't make it a very big mover and shaker either way though. Assuming there is more than that outside Steam but that's still pretty small.
Oh.. is that all you wanted, to be proven wrong.
Well MMO's are alive and well, make no mistake, DOTA2 is 15 Million Accounts. Overwatch has sold 20 Million copies, HearthStone had 50 Million Players, and.. of course.. LoL.. with 100 Million.
nahhh.. not seeing a Downward Trend here at all... if anything, in comparison to games like DoaC, EQ, and EvE, wit it's 30K players... more people are paying modern western MMO's then ever before.
Lol. Ok. You think I'm ridiculous for supporting that Ettenmoors is Open World PvP and stand behind the fact that most all sources you can find with unbiased searches say it is, but are willing to hop on the LoL is an MMO train.
You want to see a truly one sided poll? I put it to a vote of the "experts".
However I'll use my own data preference to counter this as well.
Do you take on a persona in the virtual world and interact with a large number of characters in games where you choose premade characters and fight in 5v5 matches? No.
Can they be played by "many" people at the same time? If 10 counts as many I'm hard pressed to find an online multiplayer game that isn't an MMO. So no.
Well MMO's are alive and well, make no mistake, DOTA2 is 15 Million Accounts. Overwatch has sold 20 Million copies, HearthStone had 50 Million Players, and.. of course.. LoL.. with 100 Million.
nahhh.. not seeing a Downward Trend here at all... if anything, in comparison to games like DoaC, EQ, and EvE, wit it's 30K players... more people are paying modern western MMO's then ever before.
Is there anything else you would like to be wrong about?
Yes, more people are playing MMOs now then ever before but that is because some morons decided that anything with more then 2 players is a MMO now.
The games people would define as MMOs 10 years ago have less players, even Wow is just a shadow of it's former self.
It is the MOBA genre that is huge today, not MMOs. Well, that is a truth with modification, MMOs still have some popularity, particularly in Japan and South Korea but we ain't seeing any good news in the west.
What are the top 5 MMOs today? I would guess Wow, GW2, ESO, FF XIV and probably TOR. I would not bet anything that they together hold as many players as Wow did 10 years ago if you actually count people logging in every week.
Wow stopped announcing numbers a while ago, they did mention sales of the last expansion just after launch which was a step up but we all know that many people jump in and out of Wow when a new expansion comes out. I think we can assume that Wows numbers is still dropping or at best stabibilized somewhere between 6-7 million players. Best case scenario that is 7M. I don't think any of the 4 others have 2M even.
Besides Amazons project that they say is a MMO (I might have missed information about it since I just got my internet back after 6 weeks, moved into the woods), if it actually is that would make it the only AAA MMO in the making right now. Besides that we have a few crowdfunded and indie game in the making, if MMOs really were more popular then ever before we would see that there.
Sorry but you are the one who is wrong here, unless you count MOBAs as MMORPGs.
Edit: again, talking about Western games if I didn't make that clear. NC Soft among others still make AAA MMOs.
Did anyone ever realize that when a thread pushes over 100 responses, it is usually because of two people arguing and going back and forth. Did you ever hear the phrase, arguing over the internet is like winning the special olympics . . .
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Lol. You ask me "Care to be wrong about anything else?"
And then are proven wrong in multiple different ways. By the standards you guys have been using that this community are "experts" we've determined the vast majority disagree that the games you listed are MMOs, almost none of them agree, and a sizeable minority like turtles.
Also by an unbiased search in which the search terms were actually listed (IE, you didn't just have to take my word it's unbaised) the definitions of mmorpg don't line up with the games you listed.
Meanwhile you continue to attack a single of the multiple sources and search terms I listed backing my position that the Ettenmoors are open world PvP pretending it's the only one. That makes you a straight up liar on top of being wrong.
Yes, more people are playing MMOs now then ever before but that is because some morons decided that anything with more then 2 players is a MMO now.
Those would be the same morons that decided that battlefields were suddenly Open World PvP...
Then you sit there and say that me and people who have stood with me are the one's backing your position. Which we've been refuting. In fact every single person on these boards other than you and waynejr2 have refuted it. That takes you straight up to pants on fire level.
When I see a thread such as this, I can't help come from the lens of a game designer and how it affects gameplay. I understand this thread is about flagging for PVE or PVP but I wanted to bring in a perspective that may have not been laid out yet.
The question should be, "Should PVE & PVP gameplay coexist?" The answer is yes, if separated. When you incorporate both core gameplay elements it will cause a massive imbalance because of the way you approach both spectrums of gameplay. Most NPC AI for PVE gameplay is not adaptable like a player so more simple mechanics are warranted for such.
I liked Brad McQuaids response on his last Pantheon's stream about if PVP servers or PVP flagging will be available in the game. I applauded when he said they were separate. When you cross both streams of gameplay it can break the game. The question is, if you want to incorporate both streams then which do you want to focus more on? Is PVE a means to get more powerful for PVE or vice versa?
People who seriously call MOBAs MMORPGs should be tarred, feathered, burned at the stake, drawn and quartered, thrown into a wood chipper, sown back together and sucker punched by One Punch Man.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
I do think that world PVP can be fun, it was fun during vanilla wow, but even though their classes were extremely out of balanced/broken. As I have mentioned above, I believe PVE & PVP gameplay needs to be separate, especially if the game is top heavy PVE. Of course PVP has to make sense with the rulesets and lore. Below is my idea...
I think it would be interesting to have fighting pits where 1v1 pvp takes place in various cities. There would be several divisions. Melee vs Melee, Caster vs. Caster and FFA 1v1. It would be interesting for players to actually place bets with NPC's maybe even other players to win some gold to give an immersive feel. I like the idea of players progressing through PVP ranks via fighting pits and eventually the top 100 would be invited to a single elimination tournament and the victor gets special rewards that only the winner may have access too.
Perhaps, the victor would get a set amount of gold, special weapon/armor skin, title and a statue in the town square of their character with all of their achievements. Then 1-3 months down the road someone else has the opportunity to take their title and rewards or the the champion can defend it.
Comments
On different servers, yes but you still have the problem with content, devs can just make so much and making so different content means less for everyone who doesn't enjoy both.
There is also balance, powergap and gear dependency. Balancing for one or the other messes things up. PvErs generally want a huge powergap and and lots of gear tiers, those things hurt the PvP.
So while it certainly is possible to make both sides happy I ain't sure it is worth it. A game focusing all it's resources on one or the other will be far better then one doing 50/50.
I think a huge part of the problem that makes PvP far less popular then PvE among MMOers is that they always try to compromize (but usually gives PvEers 75% or more of the content). A good PvP game needs it's specific mechanics, motivations and so on.
Nowadays many games try to split up mechanics with some PvP or PvE only things but it is far too little to be good enough.
Pick one or the other and make an awesome game for it (myself, I like either). Unless you got an insane amount of money and can walk that tightrope.
My point was all western MMOs are following a longterm trend of decline. DDO included though based on the graph it seems it's kind of just bottomed out and is making no substantial changes in either direction beyond general fluctuations. Average players in the 200s and peaks in the 400s doesn't make it a very big mover and shaker either way though. Assuming there is more than that outside Steam but that's still pretty small.
@Zionbane did not say stat progression, but you say stat progression does not exist in Minecraft, as a way to make his statement invalid.
Level's exist in Minecraft, gear progression exist's in Minecraft, so actually, there are million's of Minecraft player's that support what Zionbane said.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Levels are used to enchant things. They don't make you stronger, they're essentially a consumable resource unless they've changed how the game works dramatically in the last couple years.
Gear degrades to nothing over time and can be lost when you die.
That's temporary power ups. Not any kind of vertical progression anymore than Mario grabbing a star or a mushroom is. And you can get diamond everything in like less than day of play.
Hell the friends who were hyping up Minecraft before it's release were talking about how much they wanted to play it precisely because it did lack any kind of traditional progression.
Also ZionBane specifically stated:
"PvE players like levels, they like gaining and questing after special and powerful gear, they like the power creep, and they want to feel distinctly more powerful as they play."
So unless he's talking about Minecraft levels you can use to enchant gear, and gear that goes away the moment you die, then he's talking about stat gain. And power creep isn't possible in a game without stat gains.
Nice try though.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It certainly is hard to make a game that have fun PvE and little progression (personally did I like Guildwars there, it had progression but very limited such).
It is way harder to keep the players going just for fun instead of bribing them with new loot and new skills but I don't think it is impossible.
Ergo, just because people play Mincraft, does not invalidate that they like levels, power, and progression. Just as I played the Sims, and played EQ, at the same time, playing the sims in no way diminished my enjoyment of leveling up and farming gear in EQ.
So, to prove me wrong you would need to have some way to validate that it was the progression system of Minecraft that was what people wanted.. and not.. oh something else, like the ability to host your own server and make massive custom worlds.
Have fun with that.
Till then... I'm still 100% correct.
That's been done.
Well MMO's are alive and well, make no mistake, DOTA2 is 15 Million Accounts. Overwatch has sold 20 Million copies, HearthStone had 50 Million Players, and.. of course.. LoL.. with 100 Million.
nahhh.. not seeing a Downward Trend here at all... if anything, in comparison to games like DoaC, EQ, and EvE, wit it's 30K players... more people are paying modern western MMO's then ever before.
Source: By The Numbers
Is there anything else you would like to be wrong about?
I said players LIKE levels, Power, and progression, and you have done nothing to disprove that.
Overwatch is a MOBA, not an MMO.
Hearthstone is a virtual trading card game, not an MMO
LoL is a MOBA, not an MMO.
Lol. You're seriously going to counter me with data that says 5vs5 instanced matches are "Massively Multiplayer"?
You want to see a truly one sided poll? I put it to a vote of the "experts".
However I'll use my own data preference to counter this as well.
Top result for "Define MMORPG"
Do you take on a persona in the virtual world and interact with a large number of characters in games where you choose premade characters and fight in 5v5 matches? No.
Can they be played by "many" people at the same time? If 10 counts as many I'm hard pressed to find an online multiplayer game that isn't an MMO. So no.
The games people would define as MMOs 10 years ago have less players, even Wow is just a shadow of it's former self.
It is the MOBA genre that is huge today, not MMOs. Well, that is a truth with modification, MMOs still have some popularity, particularly in Japan and South Korea but we ain't seeing any good news in the west.
What are the top 5 MMOs today? I would guess Wow, GW2, ESO, FF XIV and probably TOR. I would not bet anything that they together hold as many players as Wow did 10 years ago if you actually count people logging in every week.
Wow stopped announcing numbers a while ago, they did mention sales of the last expansion just after launch which was a step up but we all know that many people jump in and out of Wow when a new expansion comes out. I think we can assume that Wows numbers is still dropping or at best stabibilized somewhere between 6-7 million players. Best case scenario that is 7M. I don't think any of the 4 others have 2M even.
Besides Amazons project that they say is a MMO (I might have missed information about it since I just got my internet back after 6 weeks, moved into the woods), if it actually is that would make it the only AAA MMO in the making right now. Besides that we have a few crowdfunded and indie game in the making, if MMOs really were more popular then ever before we would see that there.
Sorry but you are the one who is wrong here, unless you count MOBAs as MMORPGs.
Edit: again, talking about Western games if I didn't make that clear. NC Soft among others still make AAA MMOs.
Did anyone ever realize that when a thread pushes over 100 responses, it is usually because of two people arguing and going back and forth. Did you ever hear the phrase, arguing over the internet is like winning the special olympics . . .
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
And then are proven wrong in multiple different ways. By the standards you guys have been using that this community are "experts" we've determined the vast majority disagree that the games you listed are MMOs, almost none of them agree, and a sizeable minority like turtles.
Also by an unbiased search in which the search terms were actually listed (IE, you didn't just have to take my word it's unbaised) the definitions of mmorpg don't line up with the games you listed.
Meanwhile you continue to attack a single of the multiple sources and search terms I listed backing my position that the Ettenmoors are open world PvP pretending it's the only one. That makes you a straight up liar on top of being wrong.
Then you sit there and say that me and people who have stood with me are the one's backing your position. Which we've been refuting. In fact every single person on these boards other than you and waynejr2 have refuted it. That takes you straight up to pants on fire level.
The question should be, "Should PVE & PVP gameplay coexist?" The answer is yes, if separated. When you incorporate both core gameplay elements it will cause a massive imbalance because of the way you approach both spectrums of gameplay. Most NPC AI for PVE gameplay is not adaptable like a player so more simple mechanics are warranted for such.
I liked Brad McQuaids response on his last Pantheon's stream about if PVP servers or PVP flagging will be available in the game. I applauded when he said they were separate. When you cross both streams of gameplay it can break the game. The question is, if you want to incorporate both streams then which do you want to focus more on? Is PVE a means to get more powerful for PVE or vice versa?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think it would be interesting to have fighting pits where 1v1 pvp takes place in various cities. There would be several divisions. Melee vs Melee, Caster vs. Caster and FFA 1v1. It would be interesting for players to actually place bets with NPC's maybe even other players to win some gold to give an immersive feel. I like the idea of players progressing through PVP ranks via fighting pits and eventually the top 100 would be invited to a single elimination tournament and the victor gets special rewards that only the winner may have access too.
Perhaps, the victor would get a set amount of gold, special weapon/armor skin, title and a statue in the town square of their character with all of their achievements. Then 1-3 months down the road someone else has the opportunity to take their title and rewards or the the champion can defend it.